4-4-2 99 United

[Pondopolus]

Hello,

I've been trying to start to create a 442 system based off of a Fergie 442. I will add for what should supposedly be a standard formation I've never had any success with it and with all my experiments having failed here I am!

Hypothetically how would you set the team up with this objective in mind? I'll list what I've been trying to run below:

Positive

Possession-more direct, pass into space, focus down left+right, higher tempo and extremely wide

Transition- Distribute to full backs, counter

Out of poss- higher defensive line, more urgent

SK-S

WB S CD D BPD D FB A

WM A BWM D BBM W S

DLF S AF

Thanks!

 

[Djuicer]

I think you can use attacking team mentality to get the changes from the start.  You dont have to be more aggressive than that.

then add the ones for distribution and counter. Schmeichel had a good throw, maybe till the keeper to throw long? And let him decide where. 
 

other than that it seems fairly correct IMO. Or well, who was the bpd? 
no playmaker? Scholes? 

Edited May 25, 2020 by Djuicer

[Pondopolus]

3 minutes ago, Djuicer said:

I think you can use attacking team mentality to get the changes from the start.  You dont have to be more aggressive than that.

then add the ones for distribution and counter. Schmeichel had a good Thore, maybe till the keeper to throw long? And let him decide where. 
 

other than that it seems fairly correct IMO. Or well, who was the bpd? 
no playmaker? Scholes? 

Attacking a good shout. Sorry what do you mean by add ones for distribution and counter? 

 

And bpd was my latest trial but you're right I think I can get rid. In terms of the playmaker I feel like because of the focus of trying to go wide does a playmaker not take away from that?

[nidhar.ram]

Below would be my choice of roles and duties if you are looking to emulate Fergie's 442.

                              SK(S)

FB(S)           CD(D)                CD(D)                FB(A)

 

W(A)            B2B                   DLP(D)              WP(S)

 

                     AF                     DLF(S)

 

You can either use DLF(S) or PF(S) down to your choice. Having the Wide playmaker and DLP on defend along with a support duty striker helps you keep the ball on the left and unlock the right flank.

As @Djuicer mentioned, it is best to go with an Attacking mentality to gain quick transitions and hit teams before they organise their defence.

As with any 442 the key lies with how your set-up your out of possession instructions.

Your team of choice also plays a massive role in this set-up. 

[skyline72]

        CF(A)  DLF(s)/CF(s)

W(A)  B2B   CM(A)   WP(s)/WM(s)

FB(s)   CB(D)  CB(D)  FB(s)

GK(D)

 

The most difficult role to replicate is the Yorke/Cole I believe. 

Scholes used to play much higher up thats why I put the CM(A)

The TIs:

Attacking

Pass into space

Overlap right

 

[Experienced Defender]

54 minutes ago, Pondopolus said:

Positive + more direct + higher tempo

Keep in mind that the team mentality and passing style already affect tempo. 

 

55 minutes ago, Pondopolus said:

Out of poss- higher defensive line, more urgent

If I remember correctly, United under Fergie were pretty much disciplined in defense. keeping their shape most of the time. 

[Pondopolus]

35 minutes ago, nidhar.ram said:

Below would be my choice of roles and duties if you are looking to emulate Fergie's 442.

                              SK(S)

FB(S)           CD(D)                CD(D)                FB(A)

 

W(A)            B2B                   DLP(D)              WP(S)

 

                     AF                     DLF(S)

 

You can either use DLF(S) or PF(S) down to your choice. Having the Wide playmaker and DLP on defend along with a support duty striker helps you keep the ball on the left and unlock the right flank.

As @Djuicer mentioned, it is best to go with an Attacking mentality to gain quick transitions and hit teams before they organise their defence.

As with any 442 the key lies with how your set-up your out of possession instructions.

Your team of choice also plays a massive role in this set-up. 

 

3 minutes ago, skyline72 said:

        CF(A)  DLF(s)/CF(s)

W(A)  B2B   CM(A)   WP(s)/WM(s)

FB(s)   CB(D)  CB(D)  FB(s)

GK(D)

 

The most difficult role to replicate is the Yorke/Cole I believe. 

Scholes used to play much higher up thats why I put the CM(A)

The TIs:

Attacking

Pass into space

Overlap right

 

@nidhar.ram @skyline72 thanks for this I've got some experiments to try later! 

How would you set up on the defensive side of the ball? And I think I want to try this with Bournemouth because of their pace up front.

And would you both keep TI's to a minimum then? As @skyline72 you seem to be suggesting taking off exploiting flanks etc?

[Pondopolus]

@Experienced Defender

1. So if I was to go attacking as has already been suggested might be worthwhile to drop to standard for both passing and tempo?

2. And then drop everything to standard and add be more disciplined??

[skyline72]

17 minutes ago, Pondopolus said:

 

@nidhar.ram @skyline72 thanks for this I've got some experiments to try later! 

How would you set up on the defensive side of the ball? And I think I want to try this with Bournemouth because of their pace up front.

And would you both keep TI's to a minimum then? As @skyline72 you seem to be suggesting taking off exploiting flanks etc?

The W(A) will supposedly attack down the flank. It will be good if he has the correct PPM.

Overlap right will ask the FB(s) on the right to overlap the WM/WP just like how Neville did with Beckham. 

You can experiment it first before adding more TIs. 

Start the preseason and test it before adding any TIs. I dont think Sir Alex Ferguson gave his team a lot of intructions.

"Playing football is simple, but keeping it simple is the most difficult" by Johan Cruyff.

[JamesC86]

From watching United a lot during this era I’ll give my opinions. As with a lot of real life systems under various managers it’s difficult to replicate this exactly in the game but we can try to get as close as possible.

 

I agree that United didn’t use a playmaker at this time as the swift counter attack was effectively the playmaker. Yes, when the counter wasn’t on they could confidently control possession and probe for openings but this was mainly from overloading one side and switching the ball to the other flank or overlaps. A LOT of United goals in this era were scored from crosses into the box rather than coming from central areas so for this reason I would come away from the idea of a central playmaker.

 

Here are the roles I would choose based on the first team from 98/99 season:

 

                       AFa (Cole)   CFa (Yorke)

 

Ws (Giggs)  B2B (Scholes) BWMd (Keane) WMs (Beckham)

 

FBs (Irwin) CDd (Johnsen) CDd (Stam) WBs (G. Neville)

 

                       SKs (Schmeichel)
 

Team Instructions:

 

Mentality: Attacking

 

In possession: 

wide

play out of defence

pass into space

hit early crosses

 

In transition:

counter

 

Out of possession:

higher defensive line

more urgent

get stuck in

 

Player instructions:

FBs - cross from deep

B2B - more direct passing (in addition to switch ball to other flank PPM)

WMs - cross more often

 

As you can see I think that in terms of player roles/duties/instructions the system Fergie used this season was relatively simple, but achieved it’s effectiveness based on quick transitions, frequent crosses and late runs into the box. The ability and different strengths of the players was of course incredibly important too. The forwards need to be good in the air, wide players need to have excellent crossing and, in the case of Giggs, dribbling ability. Scholes and even to a lesser extent Keane had a habit of arriving late in the opposition penalty area. And the whole midfield were notorious for giving away free kicks on the halfway line as a first line of defence and to break up opposition attacks, hence the ‘get stuck in’ instruction. You could also add tackle harder to these midfield players but I’m not sure it’s necessary on top of the team instruction. 

Anyway, that’s my two cents!

 

 

 

 

 

[Djuicer]

19 minutes ago, JamesC86 said:

From watching United a lot during this era I’ll give my opinions. As with a lot of real life systems under various managers it’s difficult to replicate this exactly in the game but we can try to get as close as possible.

 

I agree that United didn’t use a playmaker at this time as the swift counter attack was effectively the playmaker. Yes, when the counter wasn’t on they could confidently control possession and probe for openings but this was mainly from overloading one side and switching the ball to the other flank or overlaps. A LOT of United goals in this era were scored from crosses into the box rather than coming from central areas so for this reason I would come away from the idea of a central playmaker.

 

Here are the roles I would choose based on the first team from 98/99 season:

 

                       AFa (Cole)   CFa (Yorke)

 

Ws (Giggs)  B2B (Scholes) BWMd (Keane) WMs (Beckham)

 

FBs (Irwin) CDd (Johnsen) CDd (Stam) WBs (G. Neville)

 

                       SKs (Schmeichel)
 

Team Instructions:

 

Mentality: Attacking

 

In possession: 

wide

play out of defence

pass into space

hit early crosses

 

In transition:

counter

 

Out of possession:

higher defensive line

more urgent

get stuck in

 

Player instructions:

FBs - cross from deep

B2B - more direct passing (in addition to switch ball to other flank PPM)

WMs - cross more often

 

As you can see I think that in terms of player roles/duties/instructions the system Fergie used this season was relatively simple, but achieved it’s effectiveness based on quick transitions, frequent crosses and late runs into the box. The ability and different strengths of the players was of course incredibly important too. The forwards need to be good in the air, wide players need to have excellent crossing and, in the case of Giggs, dribbling ability. Scholes and even to a lesser extent Keane had a habit of arriving late in the opposition penalty area. And the whole midfield were notorious for giving away free kicks on the halfway line as a first line of defence and to break up opposition attacks, hence the ‘get stuck in’ instruction. You could also add tackle harder to these midfield players but I’m not sure it’s necessary on top of the team instruction. 

Anyway, that’s my two cents!

 

 

 

 

 

Really nice, all I can think of is Keane was more free and creative than that. And Yorke was probably dropping more than a CFa will?

[afailed10]

From the top of my head and without any sort of testing I'd start with something generic like:

          SK-D

WB-S	CD-D	CD-D	FB-S

WP-S	CM-D	CM-S	W-A

	AF-A	DLF-S

Attacking/Positive

Counter on

Giggs can be on support with get further forward but the trick is to open up space for Beckham to cross into the two strikers and Giggs. Defensively they didn't seem to press very high so perhaps lower line of engagement would make sense but this is just a basic idea.

I'm a bit concerned with CM-S being too offensive on an attacking mentality for that system. And don't worry about movement because attacking already makes their movement more fluid than, say a balanced mentality. The trick would be to mantain a solid core and let the player's do the talking.

Edited May 25, 2020 by afailed10

[JamesC86]

4 minutes ago, Djuicer said:

Really nice, all I can think of is Keane was more free and creative than that. And Yorke was probably dropping more than a CFa will?

My idea for attack duty for Yorke is that it will help the side to execute any counter attacks. I agree that he dropped off and maybe a CFs would suit him, but I’d hope the roam from position PI in the CFa role would provide enough dropping off. Would need to be tested though!

As for Keane, he definitely didn’t just sit back when the team attacked. As I said, even he would at times arrive late in the area for a shot on goal. I picked BWMd because I wanted to not over commit in attack and limit the amount of times he made forward runs off the ball. If and when Scholes went forward then Keane stayed deeper. But he certainly did get forwards sometimes. His role is perhaps the most difficult to actually nail down in the game so would need to be tested to see what works best. CMs with harder tackling might work? 

[Djuicer]

4 minutes ago, JamesC86 said:

 

As for Keane, he definitely didn’t just sit back when the team attacked. As I said, even he would at times arrive late in the area for a shot on goal. I picked BWMd because I wanted to not over commit in attack and limit the amount of times he made forward runs off the ball. If and when Scholes went forward then Keane stayed deeper. But he certainly did get forwards sometimes. His role is perhaps the most difficult to actually nail down in the game so would need to be tested to see what works best. CMs with harder tackling might work? 

Segundo volante in the game. Only starts too deep. Except from that it plays very much like Keane.

[JamesC86]

2 minutes ago, Djuicer said:

Segundo volante in the game. Only starts too deep. Except from that it plays very much like Keane.

It’s definitely not a bad idea. Could certainly be the closest in the game to how Keane played. Would you set it up in-game with an a asymmetrical central midfield then? 

[skyline72]

24 minutes ago, Djuicer said:

Really nice, all I can think of is Keane was more free and creative than that. And Yorke was probably dropping more than a CFa will?

Yorke is more of a supporting role and linking up. 

Of course he can score himself. 

[Djuicer]

1 hour ago, JamesC86 said:

It’s definitely not a bad idea. Could certainly be the closest in the game to how Keane played. Would you set it up in-game with an a asymmetrical central midfield then? 

I think so, maybe something like this?

1 hour ago, skyline72 said:

Yorke is more of a supporting role and linking up. 

Of course he can score himself. 

I agree. Maybe he actually played more like an SS does in the game? attacking space from deep, or atleast how it looks in the game its closer to his actual style?

[skyline72]

6 minutes ago, Djuicer said:

I think so, maybe something like this?

I agree. Maybe he actually played more like an SS does in the game? attacking space from deep, or atleast how it looks in the game its closer to his actual style?

Probably?

Need to test it out though. Haha.

Of course you need the right player with the correct PPMs.

[Experienced Defender]

3 hours ago, Pondopolus said:

So if I was to go attacking as has already been suggested might be worthwhile to drop to standard for both passing and tempo?

Perhaps passing may need to be even slightly shorter. But that's something you can best find out yourself when you test the tactic. 

 

3 hours ago, Pondopolus said:

And then drop everything to standard and add be more disciplined??

Not necessarily all that. The first thing I think you should tweak is pressing urgency (from more urgent to default), especially if you play on a higher team mentality. 

[Djuicer]

14 minutes ago, Experienced Defender said:

Not necessarily all that. The first thing I think you should tweak is pressing urgency (from more urgent to default), especially if you play on a higher team mentality. 

As ED said, its quite harsh to go more disciplined on any of SAFs teams. He demanded hard work, but there was always room for the flair players too. If they did what was excpected from them out of an defensive aspect.

[Experienced Defender]

7 minutes ago, Djuicer said:

As ED said, its quite harsh to go more disciplined on any of SAFs teams

No, I did not say that. Just warned the OP against making too many tweaks at once. In some cases the Be more disciplined can make sense even if you manage a top team with great players. Which does mean that I suggest either that he should apply the instruction or not. The best approach when creating a tactic - especially an attempt at a replication - is to gradually adjust as you test the tactic until you get exactly what you wanted. 

[Djuicer]

Just now, Experienced Defender said:

No, I did not say that. Just warned the OP against making too many tweaks at once. In some cases the Be more disciplined can make sense even if you manage a top team with great players. Which does mean that I suggest either that he should apply the instruction or not. The best approach when creating a tactic - especially an attempt at a replication - is to gradually adjust as you test the tactic until you get exactly what you wanted. 

Sorry, I did not mean to put words in your mouth. 

[Pondopolus]

Wow this has blown up since I last checked! Thanks everybody. I’m gonna start testing in a bit with a very basic setup like you’ve all suggested and go from there. I will probably be quite cautious with my cm roles compared to some of the suggestions as unfortunately I don’t have access to Keane and Scholes ☹️ I shall report back with what I find tonight! 

[Pondopolus]

Hi guys, 

Finally feel like I'm making progress thanks to your help. Anyone got any thoughts on the yorke role possibly working as a treq?

[skyline72]

4 minutes ago, Pondopolus said:

Hi guys, 

Finally feel like I'm making progress thanks to your help. Anyone got any thoughts on the yorke role possibly working as a treq?

How is your team playing right now?

I think he is more like a SS than Treq ?

[Pondopolus]

@skyline72 Think I've settled on CM D and BBM in the middle as that seems to be getting a decent blend. Other than that up and down but still early days as I didn't play much last night. 

And I agree but when I've tried a system where I drop the second striker to number 10 position I've got absolutely nothing out of the team. Standard 442 working best overall imo

[skyline72]

4 minutes ago, Pondopolus said:

@skyline72 Think I've settled on CM D and BBM in the middle as that seems to be getting a decent blend. Other than that up and down but still early days as I didn't play much last night. 

And I agree but when I've tried a system where I drop the second striker to number 10 position I've got absolutely nothing out of the team. Standard 442 working best overall imo

Whats your combination of the 2 upfront?

[Garrlor]

A CF/A with the drops deep to get the ball trait might work well for Yorke, along with both strikers having Plays One Twos.

[mp_87]

Where I would start:

 

GK(d) - Your 'Schmeichel' would be a bog standard 'keeper for me. Told to distribute quickly and maybe to the flanks. Ideally, relevant PPM used to initiate quick throws rather than as a PI.

 

FB(s) - My memory of Neville is that he was always a fairly steady player who chose the appropriate moments to push forward on the overlap, he wasn't cavalier in his play or constantly advanced in his positioning. Possible PI's of stay wider and get further forward.

CD(d)

CD(d) - I'd leave them as standard to start with. Can experiment with Stopper/Cover later on.

FB(s) - The left back was a supporting role backing up the winger ahead of him. Only PI I would consider is cross from deep.

 

WM(s) - With Sit narrower and/or Roam from position to replicate the Beckham role and create room for the overlap. Probably also tasked to cross more often, and depending on PPM's possibly also riskier passes and shoot more often.

BWM(d) - This would be the Roy Keane role. Whilst it wouldn't be a totally accurate representation of his ability to burst forward or his forward passing, I think to translate into FM, especially if you're not a totally dominant super team, it would need to be a defend role.

CM(s) or BBM(s) - I think with the chosen mentality a support role is correct, they will arrive late in the box. Relevant attributes and PPM's would give you an even closer replication of Scholes, if desired.

(NB. In tougher games where you might want a more solid central midfield duo, as United used to do with the use of Nicky Butt, I'd go with an additional BWM(s) alongside the BWM or CM on defend duty).

W(a) - This would be the obvious starting point for the Giggs role, I wouldn't rule out WM(a) though either as it may best replicate how he got into the box at the back post. Think with either role chosen, no PI's to start with.

 

CF(s) - The striker roles are the hardest to choose. This was probably Yorke's role, he could do everything at his best. So if you have a good all-round player start with this, if not maybe a DLF.

AF(a) - Possibly another Complete forward, but my memory of Cole was that this role comes to mind for him, and again depends on the player you have in FM - a lesser player I'd go with the AF. Placed the more advanced on the left hand side, mindful of Beckham's diagonal passes/crosses coming from the right.

 

Mentality - Positive.

Transition - Counter

Out of Possession - Lower Line of Engagement, Defend narrower (this is what 1999 Utd did, plus in FM is better for a 4-4-2 shape I suspect).

 

As others have said, I'd start with a fairly blank canvas before adding TI's gradually. I'd start with zero In possession instructions to start with to see how the football is played before adjusting to what I saw. I'd consider more urgent closing down to try to initiate counter attack opportunities, but again would see how it went initially. Finally I might also go with Overlap right, to get the often seen situations where Beckham held the ball and waited for Neville to run past him, but once again would see how the tactic faired initially, and if I did opt to use it would reconsider the roles on the right hand side, particularly the wide midfielder.

[FlairRA]

This is my initial interpretation of that legendary side:

WM (S) - Cross More Often

WM (A) - Dribble More, Cross More Often

Mentality: Attacking is perfect, gives us high tempo, an aggressive stance, higher individual mentalities for the players.

TIs: I kept it simple, added "More Urgent", as I prefer to not give opponents time on the ball and it matches the high tempo approach well. "Counter" is used to use the pace of the left winger and strikers on the base. Still experimenting to be done here, perhaps narrower defensive width, and Attacking mentality already has fairly urgent pressing so increasing it further can prove to be redundant, especially with only two midfielders, one of whom has "Hold Position".

Roles are fairly straightforward 

GK (D): Save shots, organize the defense, nothing extraordinary here.

CD (D) x2: Again, not much going on, they have to be solid defenders that can cover for the gaps that will appear. A stopper/cover combination is definitely an option, Micheal Cox mentioned that that was how Stam/Johnsen operated.

FB (S): Irwin was your ideal reliable fullback, always a 7/10 performance, almost never making a mistake. The duty allows him to support the winger further up the field, but still remain in position, which is important with two relatively attacking roles ahead of him. WB(S) is an option, but considering I've already got an attacking fullback on the other side I don't want the defense to be too exposed. 

FB (A): Neville frequently overlapped Beckham, and gave quality delivery into the box. Possibly too attacking but a support duty may not overlap enough. 

WM (S): Beckham was an absolutely brilliant footballer during this stage, achieving 2nd in the world rankings, and dominating matches with great passing and incredible crossing. WM (S) with Cross More Often is great, though adding "Sit Narrower" to allow more overlaps and add greater passing quality in the middle is an option that can be utilized. 

BWM (D): Keane would play more of a reserved role when Scholes was next to him, I have a BWM (D) to replicate his ferocious tackling, but also cover for the attacking fullback. Nicky Butt would also fill in here on occasion, a more natural defensive player, such as during that famous victory over Juventus. 

CM (S): I've seen people play a B2B here, however my fear is that it will cause the to be too exposed if he's roaming too much, a simple CM (S) is perfect. This is even more significant in the amount of 3 man midfields there are today. Keane/Scholes would both play here, both providing different qualities, so choice of player is key here. This role is key to the entire side working, he needs to do a lot: cover the defense, supply the offensive players, and dominate the midfield. Scoring goals shouldn't be a problem, my player (Pogba) scored a long shot in the only match I've played so far, so he should still score goals. 

WM (A): A winger is a frequently used option here, but my issue is that the role too restrictive. What if the CF drops deep and space opens up, or the fullback shows him inside? Why does he need to cross from the byline? Giggs also cut inside quite a bit, most famously in the semi-final vs Arsenal. Giving the PIs to "Dribble More", "Cross More Often", ensure he can be more dynamic in his movement but ensure he still crosses often. Also, I've noticed WM's pop up at the back post more often than wingers who can be too wide for my taste, which is a big no-no in a tactic focused on crosses.

CF (S) + AF (A): One player drops deep to open up space but also focuses on scoring himself, one makes run beyond and tests the opposition's offside trap. I think it works well for the amazingly telephatic Cole + Yorke combination. AF is on the right for a number of reasons. For me personally players score more when they're on the side of their preferred foot, he can deliver crosses, and can also form a lethal combination running onto the WMs throughballs. On the other side, the CF can drop deep, opening up space for the WM. 

I haven't been inspired much this FM so I figured I'd try this with the current United squad. DDG is ideal for the GK role, as are the two defenders. Shaw lacks quality but is still fine, AWB is amazing defensively but not so good going forward, which makes his "Gets Forward Whenever Possible" trait all the more annoying. If I can unlearn that trait, I'll probably move him to the left and purchase a fullback whose better offensively. Fernandes and Pogba are awesome players who are pretty ideal for this tactic, McTominay lacks quality but has heart. Costa I just purchased, he looks good and can certainly provide many moments of magic throughout the season. Rashford and Martial, while great players, have jumping reach/heading stats of 9/8 and 8/10 respectively. Greenwood? 10 and 7.  Not ideal at all, while Rashford's pace is very useful, Martial will be upgraded. Kane would be the absolute dream! But Milik and Belotti are more realistic possibilities. 

This is a great thread so far, I'm excited to see what other interpretations people can cook up! In the meantime I'll try to bring the classic 442 back to the PL 

[Pondopolus]

@skyline72 CF S and Adv F atm! Not getting enough play between them 😕

[Pondopolus]

So.. after playing a lot of preseason but still no competitive games my system is looking a lot like @FlairRA albeit with some changes. I’ll list what I’ve added below:

In possession- wide, over lap right

Transition - throw it long, distribute to flanks 

Out of possession- higher defensive line, pressing down to standard and defend narrower 

GK- SK-S(I’ll come back to this later)

RB- WB-S- Felt an attack duty was too aggressive and Neville was definitely about defending first imo 

CBR- cover

CBL- stopper 

CM- S more direct passes 

Both wide midfielders cross more often left side dribble more. 

CF- A rather than support 

Now some thoughts... looking at the stats after games my team are not keeping the ball at any point. I understand they’re trying to play high tempo but I also don’t want the GK/CB/BWM( especially if they don’t have good passing) trying to force the issue too much as these seem to be the main culprits for giving the ball away. This has lead to me putting on the transition instructions as my goalie was registering 20% passes etc every game. Still much experimentation required here I feel. 
 

Could I put swap positions between the two strikers to get some of the interchange of Cole and Yorke? Not sure how effective this is in fm? 
 

Cross from deep for the right sided wide midfielder? 

Let me know your thoughts and how your efforts are going guys 👌🏻

Edited May 27, 2020 by Pondopolus

[Chevie]

I tried to replicate this tactic a couple of years ago on FM18. Had pretty decent success with it (using a modified database with the '99 squad).