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Hi I'm looking for some critique for my two variations of the 41221. The first one Is supposed to be a controlling front foot kind of tactic, built around trying to get the most out of my player Barry. Mostly used when I play at home or when I'm strong favourites.

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The second tactic I've made is designed to try and sit back and counter into space which I use less frequently, usually against strong teams or playing away. 

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Is there anything that stands out as really bad for these tactics, I'd love to hear your opinions or how you guys would set up. I'll post a few more screenshots of my players so you can see who I'm working with.

 

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Posted (edited)

CFa:-image.thumb.png.0d30da08e72a0ddd5255bece533723f4.png  CMa:- image.thumb.png.87974f544a39006c65f14f1be9211e6a.png   

DLPs:- image.thumb.png.f7ce2624762ae86c2044ad85269e9a44.png

WBa:- image.thumb.png.d3733a7a91e98b66d37e1e4bd6c8943a.png

Edited by Kuchiki

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Apart from a number of flaws in each of your tactics, using 2 (or any number of) tactics that are so different - both in terms of roles and instructions - is never a good idea IMHO. And even more so when you manage a top team. I would completely discard the second tactic and focus on improving the first one. 

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Just looking at the players, you could go strikerless with Barry playing as a F9 or SS. Playing Allen as a TQ(A) right sided as his traits are more suited to it. Run a DLP(D) at the base so he has passing options in front of him all of the time but is generally there to recycle the ball for your team. You could then try a CM(A) or MEZ(A) on the left side, with a CAR on the right to help protect that side while running two attacking players down there. With 2 Attack duties on the right, using overlap down that side doesnt really help that much as it just increases the mentality of your already attacking WB even further for the loss of a lot of defensive stability and means your T or IF hold back a bit. You could always tone it down to a FB(A) and see how that works with a TQ hovering in the half space before moving into the box. It gives you a potential overload and overlap down the right, a striker starting from deep to run at the defence, a winger on the left to strech play and a DLP recycling everything with a runner protecting his right side. The CAR will also move forward if the situation demands it, its not all that one dimensional. You will then potentially have a MEZ moving into the half space on the left hand side with options to pass or shoot.

As i'm not playing 20, I can't really comment on some of the other instructions but you can watch games and tweak as you see fit.

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I'd love it if you could give me some more detailed feedback on where it's flawed, I'm not great at spotting these kinds of things. How can I improve the first tactic? The second tactic was built as a plan B because my first wasn't consistently successful so I have no issue focusing on the first tactic.  

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6 minutes ago, Kuchiki said:

I'd love it if you could give me some more detailed feedback on where it's flawed

I will talk about the 1st tactic only:

- using both TQ and CF at the same time can water down your attacking bite due to having 2 highly creative and roaming roles so close to each other (on top of that, neither player looks good enough for their respective roles, especially by Liverpool standards)

- overlap right is unnecessary, given how attack-minded WB on attack duty as a role already is (along with the needlessly increased defensive risk)

- The defend duty of your BWM in MCR spot is also something that does not make much sense in this type of system

- Why do you tell the keeper to distribute specifically to fullbacks while employing a DLP in the DM position (and btw, you already have the Play out of defence turned on)?

- Given the reputation of your team (Liverpool), the counter instruction is more likely to lead to needless losses of possession than successful counter-attacks, because most opponents probably defend deep and tight against you, thereby denying you the space needed for counters

P.S: It's a bit strange that your players (from the screenshots you posted) seem to be of lower quality in 2039 than those currently playing for LFC.

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8 hours ago, Experienced Defender said:

- Given the reputation of your team (Liverpool), the counter instruction is more likely to lead to needless losses of possession than successful counter-attacks, because most opponents probably defend deep and tight against you, thereby denying you the space needed for counters

P.S: It's a bit strange that your players (from the screenshots you posted) seem to be of lower quality in 2039 than those currently playing for LFC.

As it is 2039, maybe he was on a holiday or journeyman save and Liverpool fell from grace? It happens, people have all sorts of strange goings on in long term saves. You cant base your opinion on the players they have got now vs what he has 19 years in the future and the same goes for the reputation as they may have been flirting with relegation for a few years so a counter tactic against the big boys makes sense.

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4 hours ago, Garrlor said:

As it is 2039, maybe he was on a holiday or journeyman save and Liverpool fell from grace? It happens, people have all sorts of strange goings on in long term saves. You cant base your opinion on the players they have got now vs what he has 19 years in the future and the same goes for the reputation as they may have been flirting with relegation for a few years so a counter tactic against the big boys makes sense.

Fair enough :thup:

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On 24/05/2020 at 22:59, Garrlor said:

Just looking at the players, you could go strikerless with Barry playing as a F9 or SS. Playing Allen as a TQ(A) right sided as his traits are more suited to it. Run a DLP(D) at the base so he has passing options in front of him all of the time but is generally there to recycle the ball for your team. You could then try a CM(A) or MEZ(A) on the left side, with a CAR on the right to help protect that side while running two attacking players down there. With 2 Attack duties on the right, using overlap down that side doesnt really help that much as it just increases the mentality of your already attacking WB even further for the loss of a lot of defensive stability and means your T or IF hold back a bit. You could always tone it down to a FB(A) and see how that works with a TQ hovering in the half space before moving into the box. It gives you a potential overload and overlap down the right, a striker starting from deep to run at the defence, a winger on the left to strech play and a DLP recycling everything with a runner protecting his right side. The CAR will also move forward if the situation demands it, its not all that one dimensional. You will then potentially have a MEZ moving into the half space on the left hand side with options to pass or shoot.

As i'm not playing 20, I can't really comment on some of the other instructions but you can watch games and tweak as you see fit.

Sorry for the late reply I've been quite busy with family and wanted to try out some new tactical ideas.  I've not considered strikerless because I had my heart set on having Allen as a lone forward. I was hoping Allen's off the ball movement (16) would help create space for the Treq/IF and CMa by him drifting wide. Also his comes deep and holding up the ball - Strength (18) I wanted him to draw away central defenders providing space for the Treq and CMa to attack the box. Allen also has really good physicals so I saw him as the type of striker who would be able to be a goal threat on his own. So for me I'd like to have Allen play as a CFa if I can make it work, but at the moment he struggles only chipping in a goal every 2-3 apps and assists are even lower.

Allen as a Treq is also something I never thought about, to me I wouldn't have thought he could play there because of his low Dribbling (12), Technique (12), Composure (13) and low Flair (11). Barry on the other hand has 14+ in almost all of the areas suggested for the Treq role so surely he would be a better fit?    

I'm not trying to sound unappreciative but you're suggesting making wholesale changes to my tactic but I'd like to understand why I'm making these changes and why my current settings don't work how I envisioned it. I have no issue switching to a DLPd  or a CAR but why is it bad that that I have a BWMd there I thought that role would provide a bit of defensive stability to my right flank whilst also helping with my counter-press game?

I understand WBa and overlap is really aggressive so that is definitely something I can tone down. I chose the overlap shout because I wanted the overlap to happen more frequently but perhaps it's not needed, I also thought that by using it, the Treq would hold up the ball allowing more of my players to get forward such as the DLPs, FBs and WBa all coming forward because the Treq is controlling the game. 

You make a point about the Mezz on the left, would this guy need to be left footed? 

I'm playing FM19  currently

On 24/05/2020 at 23:23, Experienced Defender said:

I will talk about the 1st tactic only:

- using both TQ and CF at the same time can water down your attacking bite due to having 2 highly creative and roaming roles so close to each other (on top of that, neither player looks good enough for their respective roles, especially by Liverpool standards)

- overlap right is unnecessary, given how attack-minded WB on attack duty as a role already is (along with the needlessly increased defensive risk)

- The defend duty of your BWM in MCR spot is also something that does not make much sense in this type of system

- Why do you tell the keeper to distribute specifically to fullbacks while employing a DLP in the DM position (and btw, you already have the Play out of defence turned on)?

- Given the reputation of your team (Liverpool), the counter instruction is more likely to lead to needless losses of possession than successful counter-attacks, because most opponents probably defend deep and tight against you, thereby denying you the space needed for counters

P.S: It's a bit strange that your players (from the screenshots you posted) seem to be of lower quality in 2039 than those currently playing for LFC.

Why is it bad to have two creative roaming players close to each other? How does it water down their attacking bite?

I started managing Liverpool after they had just been promoted from the Championship, I've been there a couple seasons now and we're predicted to finish 9th, we're doing okay but I'm not really satisfied because I like to greatly overachieve which I know is difficult because there are 6-7 teams with better players than us. I've also set myself some restrictions in regards to player selection as I've been trying to build a fully English team which means only signing English talent and slowly reducing my use of foreign players. 

I opted for the distribute to full backs because I kept seeing teams high press my defence and I thought that it would be a good option to use to prevent my central defenders from losing the ball in risky areas. Even when distributing to my DLP the pressing of the opposition makes me nervous because my central defenders aren't really good with their passing and composure.

I selected the play out of defence shout in order to draw the opposition in a bit to create some space and to stop my central defenders from hoofing the ball which was happening more frequently than I liked. 

Against weaker teams I imagined us using the high press to our advantage by dispossessing them at their end of the goal and quickly countering from that, this was my reasoning for having counter selected. 

Thank you again for your replies sorry it took me so long to get back to you hopefully you guys can shed some light on the points I have raised.

 

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Morning @Kuchiki.

So when I first looked at the player before tactic (Barry) I immediately thought SS. That was at a glance at his attributes, I thought he would be a great SS or F9, that was just my inital thoughts and impressions.

Initially you say that you want a controlling tactic, which means by default you want to either control the ball or control where the opposistion have the ball. I am leaning more towards controlling the ball based on your tactical choices in your first tactic so it is a varient of total football you are looking to implement with a relatively aggresive press, movement from the front players and some level of interchanging going on. Playing a DLP(S) at the base is a good start, though I would change him to a (D) so that he holds back more and will be in a posistion to recycle the ball and probe for openings - Bowskin seems ideally suited to this role with his PPM's and attribute spread which is where you have put him already. You mention wanting him to move forwards, he will move forwards if the situation demands it as that is where he needs to be to control the game but he will always look to be in space to recieve the ball from a team mate.

As for the MEZ, he doesnt need to be left footed at all. Right footed will mean he can cut back inside for a pass or shot into the far corner. I would be tempted to stick him on an (S) duty to start with and see where it goes from there, the idea being that he moves into the half space towards the top left of the opposistion box as you attack. The W(S) on the left will push up against the full back giving him the room to operate. Im going to go off piste here and suggest Barry for the role. He will get forward into the box, playing one-twos to break the lines as well as having a good attribute spread for a player attacking from deep - those PPM's are outstanding for that style of play.

A CAR rather than a BWM. A strange choice perhaps, however the BWM tends to be like a labrador in the FM match engine. He will chase down the ball no matter where it is pressing and harrying despite it leaving holes in your defensive shape because its a ball, and he wants it back. Its his ball. A CAR on the other hand will be disciplined in patrolling the area, even moving across to cover for your MEZ if needed and will offer you a passing outlet on the right for your DLP and your players further forward as he plays with a bit more freedom than a BWM without the need to just chase down the ball all of the time keeping your defensive shape. He will also move forward to support the attack where needed as he has a bit more licence to do so.

Experienced Defender hit the nail on the head talking about the attacking two. Two creative players, who both want the ball and want to do things with it. You can just imagine them playing lovely creative little passes between each other making noises of utter enjoyment while the possesion does nothing until one of them loses the ball and sulks for a while. To combat this, I would play Harry Allen as an IF(S) or (A) depending on what you are doing with the striker. Allens strengths are his speed, strength and balance and his off the ball movement. He would be a threat in the air coming in at the back post, he could drop deep to help start a move then sprint forward to get into the box. If you think he cant play as a Treq due to his attributes, then I  would respectfully suggest that a CF is out of his league as well.

This brings me to the star of your show and probably the player that makes me wonder why he was being played in midfield. Vladan Medic. This guy was made to play as a DLF or CF for me. All of his strengths are in his ability with the ball to do something with it for someone else or to make a goal for himself. His one real weakness is his lack of ability in the air, but that is made up for the way in which you are hopefully trying to play. He plays one twos, has great off the ball and vision, is composed with good anticipation and decision making all of which are great for a DLF. He can also dribble, shoot and naturally moves into the channels pulling defenders around as well as being strong and quick. Personally I would start with a DLF(S) and see what you think of the play. He should drop deep and link the play before moving forward, playing one twos with Barry as your MEZ or playing in the IF before getting into the box himself. With his long shots ability and takes first time shots he can be a danger to a goalkeeper from distance.

Because of Medic's height issues you might be tempted by low crosses however with Allen coming in off the flank mixed crosses is the way to go and let your winger decide based on what he sees happening in the box at the time. You are doing the right think by playing an attacking full back behind your attacking IF (assuming your striker is on support) as that will create an overload down that side creating space again for crosses or cutbacks. You dont need to use overlap, it doesnt work in the same way as you would expect in real life. What it does is boosts the mentality of your full back while reducing the mentality of the player in front of him slightly to make it look like the overlaps are happening. Hence why it isnt needed for an attacking fullback - he is already going to bomb forward so there is no need to reduce it even more. He should naturally push past your IF as the IF moves inside to be a threat with or without the ball.

As for the tactic as a whole, you could try unticking counter and counter press and just rely on your players to make the decision themselves about when to go and press. You are already using a higher LOE so they should press anyway. On a positive mentality they should counter if it is on regardless. You could use the same tactic with a defensive or balanced overall mentality as your away at the big boys tactic, using counter and counter press to try and nick the ball and score a goal to sit on while still aiming to control the ball as much as you can.

 

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3 hours ago, Kuchiki said:

Why is it bad to have two creative roaming players close to each other? How does it water down their attacking bite?

Because good attacking play should consist of 4 basic elements: movement, creation, penetration and execution. But it's your team and your tactic, so you can play however you want :onmehead:

 

3 hours ago, Kuchiki said:

I started managing Liverpool after they had just been promoted from the Championship, I've been there a couple seasons now and we're predicted to finish 9th

Well, that's all the more reason to be less adventurous and more realistic in your tactical approach. But again - it's your team and your tactic, not mine. 

 

3 hours ago, Kuchiki said:

I opted for the distribute to full backs because I kept seeing teams high press my defence and I thought that it would be a good option to use to prevent my central defenders from losing the ball in risky areas. Even when distributing to my DLP the pressing of the opposition makes me nervous because my central defenders aren't really good with their passing and composure

This only tells me that you should actually avoid the Play out of defence in the first place. 

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