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Every save is the same boys. I know it's the trend and fashionable to throw about the "it's ur tactics bruh" but this years FM has me absolutely pulling my hair out. Doesn't matter which club, tactic, style, formation, you name it - same stuff every year.

I'll start off absolutely mint. It's a formation and style that makes sense and suits the players. I'm not new to this game and I know what I'm doing - there's no glaring issues in my tactic. But about 1/3 of the way through the season it just dives off a cliff every time. Goals dry up. Set pieces stop coming. Strikers go on droughts. It's inevitable. Doesn't feel like I've got any control - can tweak whatever I like. Tempo, width, defensive line, mentality. Doesn't matter. I've won 5 in 18. Yet won 15 of my first 23.

Every highlight's the same. Winger beats his man with 3 players in the box? Smash it into the side netting lad. Inverted winger on the other side gets through? Blaze it 20 yards wide. Doesn't matter if I tell them to shoot less often, cross it more. Same stuff every time.

745eea87bab0d30d202c6f9b0df8aa1d.png

What can I do? Genuinely. How can every system I make dive off a cliff? There's nowt there that says "oof! massive problem there lad!".

Edited by Smokedsalmon

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Posted (edited)

I used to struggle a lot with form falling off a cliff mid season after having a good start. Now, a little less.

If you've started the season with lots of wins, normally it means that your tactic is good. I'm no expert, but your tactic looks OK, to me. I would change a couple things if it were me to provide more balance, but I'm in no position to give advice without knowing your squad.

What I would do in the past is, after going on an inevitable bad run of form (not a mid season crash, but just a run of 4 or 5 games where I'm drawing when I should win, and losing when I should win or draw) I would immediately think that my tactics had been 'figured out' and that I needed to change. But now I've realised that this is detrimental, chopping and changing will only confuse your players. And you've likely chosen your tactic at the start of the season as it suits your players the best, so it's not alwasy wise to change. Imagine being a player, low on confidence after a few bad performances, and your manager asks you to play a completely different role or for the team to start doing something differently with only a few days notice before a game. You're not going to have a clue, and would be better off sticking to what you're used to

Now I keep the same 1 or 2 tactics that I make at the beginning through the whole season no matter what, and I haven't ever had a season-derailing bad run of form since. Normally we get back to winning wasy fairly quickly. 

The problem is most likely to do with morale or specific players on bad form that should be dropped, or bad team talks etc. Maybe even just pure bad luck 

In terms of your tactic though, I would:

  • swap the duties of your wide players, this makes you more balanced
  • If your a stronger team, I would make one of your full backs attacking
  • may as well press more urgently if your pushing up
  • Change your CF to an AF or P, as these roles focus more on scoring instead of creating. And you at the moment, your only attacking players are the IW and the CF, both are roles that look to create as well

Also not sure why you tell your players to play wide while dribbling less, as playing wide normally gives your wingers more space to dribble at the defence.

Edited by Jack722

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6 minutes ago, Jack722 said:

I used to struggle a lot with form falling off a cliff mid season after having a good start. Now, a little less.

If you've started the season with lots of wins, normally it means that your tactic is good. I'm no expert, but your tactic looks OK, to me. I would change a couple things if it were me to provide more balance, but I'm in no position to give advice without knowing your squad.

What I would do in the past is, after going on an inevitable bad run of form (not a mid season crash, but just a run of 4 or 5 games where I'm drawing when I should win, and losing when I should win or draw) I would immediately think that my tactics had been 'figured out' and that I needed to change. But now I've realised that this is detrimental, chopping and changing will only confuse your players. And you've likely chosen your tactic at the start of the season as it suits your players the best, so it's not alwasy wise to change.

Now I keep the same 1 or 2 tactics that I make at the beginning through the whole season no matter what, and I haven't ever had a season-derailing bad run of form since. Normally we get back to winning wasy fairly quickly.

The problem is most likely to do with morale or specific players on bad form that should be dropped, or bad team talks etc. Maybe even just pure bad luck 

In terms of your tactic though, I would:

  • swap the duties of your wide players, this makes you more balanced
  • If your a stronger team, I would make one of your full backs attacking
  • may as well press more urgently if your pushing up
  • Change your CF to an AF or P, as these roles focus more on scoring instead of creating. And you at the moment, your only attacking players are the IW and the CF, both are roles that look to create as well

Also not sure why you tell your players to play wide while dribbling less, as playing wide normally gives your wingers more space to dribble at the defence.

Hello mate.

Lots of wisdom in what you say - I've definitely stuck at it this year without tweaking the tactic too much. Near enough the same as it was at the start of the year. Few things in response to your ideas.

The CF to AF idea - I've had the right striker on AF most of the year. Him (and actually 2 others) are currently on goal droughts. You know when you get a media article pop up saying "So-and-so continues to suffer goal drought"? I had 3 of my strikers have it on the same day. Changed it to CF to try and involve him more in the game. AF seems to just sit in no man's land and contribute squat.

Team's predicted 16th and I'm currently sat 5th. It's definitely over-achieving - but the Championship is a tight league and I don't read too much into it. Squad's definitely capable of finishing top 7, and early form suggests it. But both full backs are pretty poor going forward, so I leave them as (S) because otherwise you're relying on a 31 year old George Friend who's legs have gone and Ryan Shotton, who has all the technique of a small badger.

I've been implementing a split block - 2 strikers are on press more, wingers on default, CMs and back 4 on press less. Don't want them being dragged all over the place, especially in a 4-4-2 which is more about maintaining the 2 banks of 4.

Just feels like there's very little response to my tweaks, overall. I rarely see anything I do have an impact. Just very frustrating mate.

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2 minutes ago, Smokedsalmon said:

Hello mate.

Lots of wisdom in what you say - I've definitely stuck at it this year without tweaking the tactic too much. Near enough the same as it was at the start of the year. Few things in response to your ideas.

The CF to AF idea - I've had the right striker on AF most of the year. Him (and actually 2 others) are currently on goal droughts. You know when you get a media article pop up saying "So-and-so continues to suffer goal drought"? I had 3 of my strikers have it on the same day. Changed it to CF to try and involve him more in the game. AF seems to just sit in no man's land and contribute squat.

Team's predicted 16th and I'm currently sat 5th. It's definitely over-achieving - but the Championship is a tight league and I don't read too much into it. Squad's definitely capable of finishing top 7, and early form suggests it. But both full backs are pretty poor going forward, so I leave them as (S) because otherwise you're relying on a 31 year old George Friend who's legs have gone and Ryan Shotton, who has all the technique of a small badger.

I've been implementing a split block - 2 strikers are on press more, wingers on default, CMs and back 4 on press less. Don't want them being dragged all over the place, especially in a 4-4-2 which is more about maintaining the 2 banks of 4.

Just feels like there's very little response to my tweaks, overall. I rarely see anything I do have an impact. Just very frustrating mate.

I know the feel mate.

Maybe one way to get more bodies forward without sending up the full backs would be to keep one as a FBd or IWBd, while changing your DLP to a support role and get him more involved in the attack? Then you could play two wingers and still keep your width.

In terms of your strikers, to me it feels that most of the tactics I see in this thread involve possession based instructions. You have Dribble less, play out of defence and short GK distribution. All slowing down the play. It could be that the opposition finds you too static and slow to be dangerous. I find that more traditional No9s (AFs) work best when you attack more directly and play instructions such as higher tempo, hit early crosses, pass into space. Your striker will thank you for all the extra service he gets.

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6 minutes ago, Jack722 said:

I know the feel mate.

Maybe one way to get more bodies forward without sending up the full backs would be to keep one as a FBd or IWBd, while changing your DLP to a support role and get him more involved in the attack? Then you could play two wingers and still keep your width.

In terms of your strikers, to me it feels that most of the tactics I see in this thread involve possession based instructions. You have Dribble less, play out of defence and short GK distribution. All slowing down the play. It could be that the opposition finds you too static and slow to be dangerous. I find that more traditional No9s (AFs) work best when you attack more directly and play instructions such as higher tempo, hit early crosses, pass into space. Your striker will thank you for all the extra service he gets.

Issue is mate what I find is both the Winger and IW (regardless of duty) tend to beat 1-2 men (especially my IW, Patrick Roberts - easily my best player, unreal on the ball) and get into an excellent position to cross... and then blaze the ball into the side netting or miles wide. Dribble Less was there to try and get them to stop just running toward goal and pinging it into Row Z in their best Bobby Zamora impression and actually pass the wee round thing to one of the 2 strikers.

As for playing it out the back, my experience on every FM is that building up from the back is always most effective - if I let them ping the ball up it usually gets sent into no man's land and comes straight back at us. I've tried mixing it up with just playing it to the full backs without play out of defence (which was probably more effective) but either way I've found the goal-scoring opportunities have dried up. Usually the main issue is ^^^ what I've described above with wingers just not fancying crossing the ball. I've stuck shoot less often, cross more often, take more risks, you name it - to try and stop them having a hissy fit at the side netting - but to no avail.

Feels like wide-play, crossing, and striker movement needs serious work. If I implement this same tactic in FM18 (which is where I basically copied it from), I've taken tiny teams to the top division and won leagues with it. 4-4-2 shouldn't be too complicated and with decent players should see some decent wide-play. Dunno mate! Tried it all at this point. Head against the wall stuff.

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Other than this years ME featuring more side netting shots and lack of Striker movement. I have found that the Goalies are almost Superhuman compared to past years.

I often had frustration with my teams doing the same as yours because I used minimalist TI's and but wanting quick counterattack ability from wing play. I was frustrated like you. The TI's and PI's are unintuitive and often cancel each other out.

On a lark the other day I started a new save. I used the Tactics Module to create TIKITAKA  Style Football. This is something I never did before at least this style of Football. I also left all of the TI's in place and ran the formations with the suggested roles. I found that in it Wingers would run down the flank and cross the ball. The passing was very short and and recycled the ball quite a bit, but the team almost never wasted a shot. 

I am speculating but I think they have programmed the ME to favor Gengenpressing and TikiTaka styles of Football to be ideal and everything else to be worse. 

Also playing players with Green Circles in a role is better than one that doesn't even if he has good attributes for role.

I found this out because I was playing my Striker as a PF-A and he wasn't scoring and was man marked into oblivion in the TikiTaka System as soon as I changed the role to his favored AF he suddenly found space even when Man-Marked  and started banging in goals. 

I hope this gives you some hope anyway...my suggestion is to stay within the preprogrammed templates as much as possible unless you understand what all the TI's and PI's actually do.

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3 hours ago, Smokedsalmon said:

Every save is the same boys. I know it's the trend and fashionable to throw about the "it's ur tactics bruh" but this years FM has me absolutely pulling my hair out. Doesn't matter which club, tactic, style, formation, you name it - same stuff every year.

I'll start off absolutely mint. It's a formation and style that makes sense and suits the players. I'm not new to this game and I know what I'm doing - there's no glaring issues in my tactic. But about 1/3 of the way through the season it just dives off a cliff every time. Goals dry up. Set pieces stop coming. Strikers go on droughts. It's inevitable. Doesn't feel like I've got any control - can tweak whatever I like. Tempo, width, defensive line, mentality. Doesn't matter. I've won 5 in 18. Yet won 15 of my first 23.

Every highlight's the same. Winger beats his man with 3 players in the box? Smash it into the side netting lad. Inverted winger on the other side gets through? Blaze it 20 yards wide. Doesn't matter if I tell them to shoot less often, cross it more. Same stuff every time.

745eea87bab0d30d202c6f9b0df8aa1d.png

What can I do? Genuinely. How can every system I make dive off a cliff? There's nowt there that says "oof! massive problem there lad!".

Need to have a good, hard, long look at yourselves for next year SI. Stop abandoning development on your games 8 months before the next comes out. Horrible business practice. And aye, I've had a few to drink. Only way to cope with this shambles lads.

May I know what style of football you are trying to implement here? On first glance it might seem you are trying to play a more possession oriented style but the more I look at it the instructions and formation you have chosen does not really fit a possession style. So it is hard for me to give any concrete advice.

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Well, I didn't have problem with the 442,also morphing in a 442 DM. Strikers find always the way to smash in the net. What I'd suggest, it is not to tell you exactly what to do. But, calm yourself and pay attention to roles/duties foremost anything else. The key is in the tweaking of roles/duties. I play same style every game, I love counter attacking football, so I don't change that style, but I tweak according the opposition defensive shape (formation) and how much are they willing to risk (mentality/duties/roles) I have 4-5 different approach to each situation as base and then situational tweaks in specific moment of the game. But mainly these changes are roles/duties changes. All is supported by a well thought training schedule, to instill my players the counter attacking style. I never changed mentality, on positive,as I want a forward thinking counter strategy. The only TI I change are the defensive line and defensive widht to adapt at various opposition formation. I hope you got some ideas. 

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Think the main issue for me that there doesn't seem to be a clear answer to is what to do when your tactic starts to fail.

I get that teams start to play more defensive. So you make tweaks like, say, lowering attacking line - gives you more space to play into and behind, right? Or you might lower the tempo so you aren't banging balls up into a back line.

But what if it doesn't have an impact? Is the slide inevitable? Do you have to just sort of push through and hope it starts to even itself out?

Any specific advice on this ^^^ would be class boys, cheers.

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Well, it is really complicate and misleading giving you advices like you just said. For that, you need watching games, and experience to be the tinkerman. For example your 442 for my like is completely unbalanced, and there is no clear style definition. This is my humble opinion. You need to start from the basics. As always I suggest, have a close read to the official manual, there are so many good info and often gamers skip it. That's why, people are not giving you specific advices, because it is pointless when you don't have comprehensive information. 

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13 hours ago, Smokedsalmon said:

How can every system I make dive off a cliff? There's nowt there that says "oof! massive problem there lad!".

Why do you assume it's your system that's the problem and not the players?

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15 hours ago, Smokedsalmon said:

745eea87bab0d30d202c6f9b0df8aa1d.png

 

15 hours ago, Smokedsalmon said:

It's a formation and style that makes sense and suits the players. I'm not new to this game and I know what I'm doing - there's no glaring issues in my tactic

 

15 hours ago, Smokedsalmon said:

What can I do? Genuinely. How can every system I make dive off a cliff? There's nowt there that says "oof! massive problem there lad!"

You first claim - very boldly - that your tactic "makes sense" and has "no glaring issues", but then asking for help. If you are so sure that the tactic makes sense and has no (obvious) flaws, how are we supposed to offer any thoughts that might contradict your claim?

Anyway, I'll tell you what - for me personally - is problematic in your tactic (which you of course can agree or disagree about).

You use a number of instructions that are essentially possession-friendly: play out of defence, take short kicks, higher DL and LOE and even dribble less. But at the same time, you play in a formation (442) that is not optimally suited to such style of play. Plus you play both fullbacks in a fairly conservative role, which usually leads to insufficient attacking support from wider areas in a possession-oriented systems. Plus the Counter in transition (which tends to lead to needlessly frequent losses of possession by encouraging the players to rush into counter-attacks even when chances of success are minimal).

Then you have the striker partnership made of 2 creator roles (CF and DLF), instead of 1 as a creator and 1 as a simple runner, which would definitely make more sense. 

But if you still believe that there is nothing wrong (or at least problematic) with your tactic, then okay :onmehead:

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It looks to me as though your strikers are the wrong way round. When the DLF (S) drops deeper, there's no-one running into the space he creates, because he's got a DLP (D) behind him, and the W (S) will generally stay fairly wide rather than moving into that central space. On the other side, you've got a BBM (S) and IW (A) both running forward and potentially getting into the box, but the CF (A) on that side isn't going to be dropping to create space for them all that often. This might be stopping the BBM from getting into the box as often, and pushing the IW wider, where he's opting to shoot from bad angles. If you move the DLF to the right hand side of the strike pairing, you should be able to open some space centrally for those two players to attack.

As for the wide players shooting from stupid angles rather than crossing, that's partially a match engine issues, but there's some things you can look at to at least make it less frequent. Train them to look for the pass rather than attempting to score, get rid of any traits that encourage them to shoot, and make sure you buy players with good teamwork and decisions. 

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I play 442 (on fm19 still) most of the time and I find I have most success with the IW and DLP next to each other with a WB(s) behind them. Then BBM and W(s) with FB(s) behind them and I'd put them on the same side as the DLF(s) so the BBM runs beyond him, W stays side and FB(s) covers. The IW and DLP can then use them as runners to drop a pass in to. 

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Posted (edited)

 

On 20/05/2020 at 11:18, Smokedsalmon said:

Think the main issue for me that there doesn't seem to be a clear answer to is what to do when your tactic starts to fail.

I get that teams start to play more defensive. So you make tweaks like, say, lowering attacking line - gives you more space to play into and behind, right? Or you might lower the tempo so you aren't banging balls up into a back line.

But what if it doesn't have an impact? Is the slide inevitable? Do you have to just sort of push through and hope it starts to even itself out?

Any specific advice on this ^^^ would be class boys, cheers.

Please feel free to disregard this, but if things are going wrong, use a tactic that batters the opposition.

Two strikers up front pressing like mad. Balls raining into the box non stop. Cross Cross Cross.

Win loads of second balls. Go in hard on your opponent. Kick the hell out of them.

Shoot. shoot. shoot. shoot. shoot.

Spend a couple of games absolutely overwhelming your opponent. I find youll win games doing this quite frequently. Ive even played this way and won titles over a whole season.

When youve got a few wins and morale is better, THEN return to a more normal tactic.

I know its not what most people would say, but i truly believe this approach can help in small doses.

 

Edited by Experienced Defender
a stupid attempt to provoke an argument + bad language

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1 hour ago, FMunderachiever said:

feel free to disregard this, but if things are going wrong, use a tactic that batters the **** out of the opposition.

Two strikers up front pressing like mad. Balls raining into the box non stop. Cross Cross Cross.

Win loads of second balls. Go in hard on your opponent. Kick the living **** out of them.

Shoot. shoot. shoot. shoot. shoot.

Spend a couple of games absolutely overwhelming your opponent. I find youll win games doing this quite frequently. Ive even played this way and won titles over a whole season.

When youve got a few wins and morale is better, THEN return to a more normal tactic.

I know its not what most people would say, but i truly believe this approach can help in small doses.

 

This :lol:

Max d-line, loe, pressing, counter press, tempo, width

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@FMunderachiever I edited out the part of your comment in which you were trying to argue with me, because that:

1. does not help the OP in any way; and

2. has no place in the tactical section of the forum.

Period.

P.S: I also edited the other part of it for the use of inappropriate words. Therefore, mind the language please!

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