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Will anyone be buying fm 21?   It's a Yes from me.  Coventry being promoted to championship is a added bonus.  So am looking forward to a very tough challenge in football manager 2021.  Regarding the match engine in fm 2020 well nothing is perfect.   

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22 hours ago, Overmars said:

The problem with this argument is that you can play the game for 500 hours and then at the end you might wish you hadn't played at all because your overall feeling and memory from those 500 hours was one of frustration and maybe even regret. I spent a lot of time playing FM20, far more time than I did playing FM19, but the frustration eventually got to me. It's probably worse that I spent more time on FM20 than FM19 because I walked away from both versions feeling a bit disappointed.

If anything, the fact that this game is so incredibly addictive puts more pressure on it to leave a good impression. The people debating whether or not to buy it next year are keenly aware of the opportunity cost associated with playing the game that goes far beyond the price of the game itself.

Zero frustration, zero regret and zero disappointment from playing thousands of hours worth over the 20 or so years. Are some years better than others? Ofcourse but it still doesn't take away from that year's experience. Every year is different, for better or worse, which is far better than playing the exact same game for the past 5 or 6 years like FIFA.

SI have never let me down with an edition so much that I would even think about walking away for a year or two. This years one I can't see being any different.

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19 hours ago, Marko1989 said:

Do you even think before posting something, or you are writing your comments just to look like a good boy in front of the guys from SI here in front of the moderators? 

Why he spent 500 hours. You already know from my comments that I hate this version, and I've played it for 300+ hours, similar as him. 

That time is spent on giving this game a chance over and over, it is spent on trying to love this version of our favourite game. I understand that you are a ultra fanboy, but we should not be afraid to write a bad critic about the game, otherwise, it will not be improved. 

 

Hate to break it to you kid, but pretty sure the development team aren't sitting around a table saying "Marko1989 said the match engine is bad, so we'd better pull the stops out for the next version". And even if they were, there would be a knock on the door from the money men saying "ah but it's okay though, as he still bought the game and played it for 300 hours". :D 

Back to the OP, will I buy FM21? It depends. If there's other games out at the same time which I'm enjoying then I won't necessarily rush to do so. Likewise if I'm unsure I'll try the demo to see if it's improved from FM20. I stopped playing FM20 a while back and only check these forums out occasionally to see if there's any news. Apologies if that doesn't fit some posters' narrative of everyone being either a 'fanboy' or a critic. 

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Every year I say I may not get it and every year I cant help it! 

One thing I would like to see though as my laptop isnt exactly the newest out there is have the 3D match view be a bit more flexible in that there was a time whereby you could enable the crowds, the stadium and you could even enable/disable the background scenery which I do think my laptop would cope better with being able to have either stadium only or the crowd and simply switch off backgrounds of houses and factories... please SI make it so! my laptop would be really thankful! 

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I don't think I will rush out to buy it. Partly because I don't get the time I used to for playing it but because I read so much on here about the match engine as well as seeing things myself that I think I'll wait a bit and see how it goes. For me, the match engine caused more debate than any other topic so I think the focus should be on that first and foremost to ensure that going forward, we have a solid engine that plays well as I don't think another year of how it has been will help at all. 

It's not an easy task at all and nobody thinks it really is.

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1 hour ago, steam just is said:

The only problem with not buying it and skipping a year is we may have drudged our way through 2020, 19 and 18 only to miss a classic (if the ME gets a 17 makeover).

Yeah, so keep an eye on the feedback thread and also try the demo yourself when it lands. :thup:

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I will wait until the last patch to buy. This game engine is **** now, too old and too many bug, when you try to fix this one its just pop another one, i dont care about how many useless feature you put in the game if your match engine still bug like hell then its not working at all. 

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22 hours ago, dangngo6 said:

I will wait until the last patch to buy. This game engine is **** now, too old and too many bug, when you try to fix this one its just pop another one, i dont care about how many useless feature you put in the game if your match engine still bug like hell then its not working at all. 

Hate to tell you, but that's not a symptom of this match engine, it's a symptom of any match engine we're likely to get regardless of age or quality.

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I'll buy it and give it a go. Haven't enjoyed FM20 at all really. The ME in my opinion is very poor... but im willing to put it down to a work in progress as we had new functionality put in there. 

what im tempted to do is not look at this forum at all for the first few months. Sometimes we have too much information from other people over what doesn't work or what is an exploit and then you get possible confirmation bias... or you just don't enjoy winning as much cos the style you've chosen turns out to be an exploit. 

Lets say I want to recreate a very direct tactic next year and I go 442 with wingers...target man... and it works great... I think id be happy … without reading all day that wingers are overpowered and 442 is an exploit. if that makes sense? 

at least that way if I find behaviours im really not happy with … ive come to my own conclusions and given it a fair go

 

 

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38 minuti fa, forameuss ha scritto:

Hate to tell you, but that's not a symptom of this match engine, it's a symptom of any match engine we're likely to get regardless of age or quality.

But you do realise this shouldn't happen do you

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40 minutes ago, Federico said:

But you do realise this shouldn't happen do you

Should rain happen either?  That's similarly pointless to argue against.

Software will ALWAYS have bugs.  The key is that those bugs end up throwing off the balance as little as possible.  But the only way a system like the match engine doesn't lead to whack-a-bug is if it MASSIVELY decreases in complexity.  And by that, I mean does far less and gets much worse.  You really think that's a good trade-off?  

I don't think you really know much about what you're talking about.

Edited by forameuss
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On 08/09/2020 at 10:07, Harrison Bored said:

Hate to break it to you kid, but pretty sure the development team aren't sitting around a table saying "Marko1989 said the match engine is bad, so we'd better pull the stops out for the next version". 

Yes, of course they will not say - Marko said that the match engine is bad, let's make it better. Of course they will not do that. What they should say is - Hey, so many people said that the match engine is very bad, let's make it better.

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45 minuti fa, forameuss ha scritto:

Should rain happen either?  That's similarly pointless to argue against.

Software will ALWAYS have bugs.  The key is that those bugs end up throwing off the balance as little as possible.  But the only way a system like the match engine doesn't lead to whack-a-bug is if it MASSIVELY decreases in complexity.  And by that, I mean does far less and gets much worse.  You really think that's a good trade-off?  

I don't think you really know much about what you're talking about.

Oh dear another wise-expert-you know nothing john snow of the forum.... yeah probably I'm not an expert about software.

I'm not sure what might make me think you are though.

Ah yeah, the example of the rain.

Well done, mission accomplished.

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30 minutes ago, Federico said:

Oh dear another wise-expert-you know nothing john snow of the forum.... yeah probably I'm not an expert about software.

I'm not sure what might make me think you are though.

Ah yeah, the example of the rain.

Well done, mission accomplished.

Really mature way of dealing with things and sticking up for your point.  Well done, missing accomplished.

I'm sorry it's upset you, but even if I didn't work in software for a job, I'd expect to think the same with basic common sense.  

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About maturity, I loved how you accused someone to know nothing about something, and you probably know even less.

 

Now sorry, I have no more time for you.

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On 11/09/2020 at 06:53, Tyler42 said:

I personally think that FM series suffers from the luxury of having no real competition on this genre, so there is no motive to really push things to the next level when you can just charge people $50 for the only game of its kind that is out there.

I agree. If there was competition out there, the match engine would have been modernised perhaps even with a completely new architecture and philosophy. 

Like all things in life, a little competition will spur one to go beyond and not stay in the comfort zone. I feel SI have been quite comfortable using the decades old engine and just playing safe, simply because there's no competition. Which has ended up with bugs that have been in the game for ages still not fixed. 

I'd even say the lack of competition is also holding SI back to be an even more successful and greater company than they already are. 

Edited by upthetoon
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As said somewhere else, the lack of competion should be considered a badge of honor for SI and not a complain as they succeeded where the others failed, may you like FM or not.

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24 minutes ago, upthetoon said:

In Economics or even in the course of an individual growth, competition is always necessary for growth

This overlooks one very important factor - a company's own desire to grow and innovate, which is precisely what SI do.  You may not think SI do that but then why do they engage with the community through these forums, encouraging feedback and bug reports?  Why offer a Beta test?  As SI themselves say in this very thread:

Quote

We felt that introducing an opt-in public beta after the game was released allows our players to contribute and feedback in advance of us putting out an update. For us it was seen as a step forward in the process of amplifying our communities voice within the studio.

That doesn't sound like a company who are willing to stay in their comfort zone as you put it.  And on a personal level, from the relatively limited exposure I've had to SI both as a Moderator and engaged in other activities behind the scenes, I can assure you SI are ever striving to make it the best they can.  That's not an opinion, that actually happens.  Believing they are somehow playing it safe does them a great disservice and is completely false.

I agree that competition can help to drive growth, but companies can also be quite capable of driving themselves to do better.

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25 минут назад, herne79 сказал:

This overlooks one very important factor - a company's own desire to grow and innovate, which is precisely what SI do.  You may not think SI do that but then why do they engage with the community through these forums, encouraging feedback and bug reports?  Why offer a Beta test?  As SI themselves say in this very thread:

That doesn't sound like a company who are willing to stay in their comfort zone as you put it.  And on a personal level, from the relatively limited exposure I've had to SI both as a Moderator and engaged in other activities behind the scenes, I can assure you SI are ever striving to make it the best they can.  That's not an opinion, that actually happens.  Believing they are somehow playing it safe does them a great disservice and is completely false.

I agree that competition can help to drive growth, but companies can also be quite capable of driving themselves to do better.

I guess you and @upthetoon talking about not the same things.
You are interpret this as a kind of abuse for people in SI as I understood. Local. He is talking about global. No people issue, higher level.

Fresh example - Microsoft used low prices for new consoles and (looks like) Sony needs to correct own prices. Sony was good before Xbox? Yes. PlayStation 1 and 2 was in top, people loved them *
 But they started to be better by rivalry? For sure. They failed with PS3 and Xbox 360 won this battle - PS4 learned all mistakes and real progress was there. Its work in both sides.
(*btw Sony had a Rival of Sega consoles and they need to do best shot for win)

Its not about people dont work good. Its about if another one company created Match Engine with better graphics - SI probably find resources to improve own graphics. Probably not I dont know. But rivalry needs for companies to do more. For customers usually this is good.

Dark side - some companies lose battle and closed (SEGA consoles beat by Sony). Or it could be stagnation for both sides of rival - hello for FIFA and PES. 
Local - I dont believe that SI staff work bad. Global - I guess that if 2k Sports for example createw own manager - SI needs to find more resources for own improve. This is very selfishly but for costumers this 'arms race' / 'war for customers' is good in a short term. It could be worse in a long term (or not)

 

@herne79 I noticed you are in Development Squad? Congrs! :thup::)

Edited by Novem9
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Yeah definitely, currently playing FM18 Touch and loving it. Skipped 19 and wasn't too enamoured with the demo for 20 with players just passing back and forth. But will get it on PS5 as I'm sure it's coming out on the next gen consoles in the same way it's came out on Switch.

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My answer is no. For a very long time, the product from SI has been far from realism in football: in each version, some important function does not work. Either the forwards do not score, or they score, but only with their feet, or the whole game through the flanks, or, conversely, the whole game through the center..

Edited by Jorgen_B
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Probably, I didn't play much of 20 because of general boredom due to the virus and me wanting to do things outside of my usual gaming for a while. 

In terms of bugs and stuff. Software can't be bug free, take it from someone who's job it is to make sure software is as good as it can be. There will always be bugs and there will always be a cut off point where the dev team need to stop supporting the current product to work on the next one.

Some of the bugs in the ME that have been reported will be rolled in to the 2021 ME. Some new ones might pop up, it's the nature of the beast. Some of the ones in there will be around for a while as they are deep seated issues that take a while to investigate and work on.  Software is getting more complex, tech is getting more advanced and affordable, these two things mean there is more chance of bugs appearing. Gamers just need to start to realise that bugs will happen and might take more time to fix or cannot be fixed without major re-writes in future versions basically.

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On 12/09/2020 at 12:13, upthetoon said:

Not true. In Economics or even in the course of an individual growth, competition is always necessary for growth. Competition in technological markets has resulted in much better consumer satisfactory. AMD - INTEL - NVIDIA etc. 
Competition in the marketplace boosts innovation and always benefits consumers. Economic policies are also developed with competition in mind. 

The modern world and every technological development is a result of competition one way or another. Without competitions and/or rivals, we will still be stroking wood for fire and light.

SI not resulting on their laurels & not being in comfort zone is your opinion. I respect it. But i don't agree. My opinion is on the contrary. So far most competitors have been useless that SI have managed to blow out of the water. Which is why i'm advocating the need for a healthy credible competition. Like intel has been for AMD. I always believe, with competition, we would have seen a completely new ME with the latest technological architecture some time back. 

Only with competition will we see SI grow even stronger. The competition may never usurp SI, SI are likely to be still the best out there, but it will keep spurring SI to innovate and give their best.

Competition is absolutely vital for growth.
I'll end here.

Thank you.

Whether I agree with this or not isn't really relevant, what is are your choices having made this point. From where I sit they are:

- Learn to code and start building your own football management game
- Spend money on a rival football management game (there are a few out there, albeit fairly basic)
- Gather up a group of friends/investors and fund a brand new football management title
- Don't play or buy FM because you don't enjoy it (or out of spite)

Whilst there may be an element of relief for you, banging the drum about SI needing competition doesn't really help anyone. Whilst it is actually SI's fault there's no competition, they've done it by producing a title better than anything else. They haven't gone the EA route of buying out other rivals or making all the licences so exclusive no-one else can even release a game. They just did it by sticking to it and doing it better. And yeah they could make an even better game - sure there's ways they can be more efficient, invest in certain areas and like all businesses make sure waste is kept to a minimum. But not really sure how by just posting here and getting a handful of upvotes you're really spurring anyone on? 

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I'll definitely buy it if the current way of life remains as it is as I've really enjoyed FM19. I actually came to the site to find the release date so at present I will buy it.

If life goes back to normal though I'll probably wait for next year's edition, I tend to purchase one edition every 2-3 years and usually when I can get it for around £20.

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I doubt it. Since FM 18, in my opinion, the game has gotten worse.

Recently installed FM 16 and it felt better than FM 20. The attackers scored 1v1's, your IF's scored, even your false 9 scored, AND YOUR WINGBACKS DIDN'T SHOOT ALL THE TIME as they do in FM 20.....

But this FM is by far the worst, I think. Your worldclass attackers hardly score CCC's, your most creative players act like they play in the lower leagues as you rarely see any opening passes or through balls, and the wingbacks are a joke, they shoot all the time instead of trying a cross or a pass... When you play tiki taka your midfielders only pass it around among themselves, your attacking players hardly make any runs, and when you get an opportunity they either shoot straight at the keeper or blast it 5 metres out side of the post. And Gegenpress is way too op. Seen so many tactics and most of 'em are more or less based on Gengenpress. 

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1 hour ago, MrGlenn1337 said:

I doubt it. Since FM 18, in my opinion, the game has gotten worse.

Recently installed FM 16 and it felt better than FM 20. The attackers scored 1v1's, your IF's scored, even your false 9 scored, AND YOUR WINGBACKS DIDN'T SHOOT ALL THE TIME as they do in FM 20.....

But this FM is by far the worst, I think. Your worldclass attackers hardly score CCC's, your most creative players act like they play in the lower leagues as you rarely see any opening passes or through balls, and the wingbacks are a joke, they shoot all the time instead of trying a cross or a pass... When you play tiki taka your midfielders only pass it around among themselves, your attacking players hardly make any runs, and when you get an opportunity they either shoot straight at the keeper or blast it 5 metres out side of the post. And Gegenpress is way too op. Seen so many tactics and most of 'em are more or less based on Gengenpress. 

Admittedly my formation is rather attacking and I do score a lot of goals yet in ten seasons not once has one of my lone-strikers finished top scorer in my team. I think that speaks volumes. I'm a successful team and create enough opportunities for them to score. The amount that they have missed between them over the seasons is embarrassingly unrealistic! People can say 'it's your tactic' or 'it's because you're playing an attacking style'. A load of cobblers. My forwards consistently miss fantastic opportunities, I still win leagues, but that's not the point. The whole game ME feels off because of it.

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22 minutes ago, dolph11 said:

Admittedly my formation is rather attacking and I do score a lot of goals yet in ten seasons not once has one of my lone-strikers finished top scorer in my team. I think that speaks volumes. I'm a successful team and create enough opportunities for them to score. The amount that they have missed between them over the seasons is embarrassingly unrealistic! People can say 'it's your tactic' or 'it's because you're playing an attacking style'. A load of cobblers. My forwards consistently miss fantastic opportunities, I still win leagues, but that's not the point. The whole game ME feels off because of it.

Meanwhile I have a relatively attacking formation (4-2-3-1 Wide on Positive), and have Haaland and Sékou Koïta (as my rotational striker) banging in 24 in 35 matches and 16 goals in 19 matches (and 8 subs) in my last season and are my two highest goalscorers. So yes, tactics can play a part, because I set my roles to get the ball through to the Complete Forward in the box.

They don't even have a stupid number of shots and shots off target compared to RL stats. Haaland in my last season had 128 shots, 71 on target, so he was on target 55% of the time, and scored 20 in the league. Meanwhile, in just the Premier League, Salah had 132 shots (the most out of everyone) and 59 on target (again, most out of everyone), and scored 19, 44% shots on target. Hell, Vardy, who scored the most last season in the league, had 43 shots on target from 89 total shots (48% accuracy), and scored 23 in the league.

(Shots can be found: https://www.premierleague.com/stats/top/players/total_scoring_att, and shots on target https://www.premierleague.com/stats/top/players/ontarget_scoring_att)

It's entirely possible to get your players to be more accurate and/or comparable to real life, you're just never going to be scoring the majority of them, because that doesn't happen IRL either, and if you play too aggressively and too attacking, the players are going to be making a hell of a lot of shots that are just bad shots, because they've basically been told to shoot every time they see the goal for more than 2 seconds.

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13 minutes ago, JordanMillward_1 said:

Meanwhile I have a relatively attacking formation (4-2-3-1 Wide on Positive), and have Haaland and Sékou Koïta (as my rotational striker) banging in 24 in 35 matches and 16 goals in 19 matches (and 8 subs) in my last season and are my two highest goalscorers. So yes, tactics can play a part, because I set my roles to get the ball through to the Complete Forward in the box.

They don't even have a stupid number of shots and shots off target compared to RL stats. Haaland in my last season had 128 shots, 71 on target, so he was on target 55% of the time, and scored 20 in the league. Meanwhile, in just the Premier League, Salah had 132 shots (the most out of everyone) and 59 on target (again, most out of everyone), and scored 19, 44% shots on target. Hell, Vardy, who scored the most last season in the league, had 43 shots on target from 89 total shots (48% accuracy), and scored 23 in the league.

(Shots can be found: https://www.premierleague.com/stats/top/players/total_scoring_att, and shots on target https://www.premierleague.com/stats/top/players/ontarget_scoring_att)

It's entirely possible to get your players to be more accurate and/or comparable to real life, you're just never going to be scoring the majority of them, because that doesn't happen IRL either, and if you play too aggressively and too attacking, the players are going to be making a hell of a lot of shots that are just bad shots, because they've basically been told to shoot every time they see the goal for more than 2 seconds.

I genuinely wish I could show you a highlight reel. 

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SI have gone unchallenged for some time now in the FM on desktop front which has helped them surge and whilst some might expect that to cause laziness as there is no competition I think that has lead them to be a bit more inventive with some features which they may have held back on before.

The games in my opinion are getting stronger and stronger becoming more realistic but that also comes with it a big challenge as the game becomes a bit harder. I dont personally have hte time to plough into it like I used to but I thoroughly enjoy  being immersed in the virtual world when I play.

I dont personally get as much value out of the title anymore however I shall be looking to aquire 2021 this year.

I have FM Mobile on phone, FM Touch on Swith and full fat FM on PC but I know for certain I will only be buying the PC version this year. If I am going to get some moneys worth, I would rather my old fave PC flavour of FM.

I am happy it will be a little delayed though as I am enjoying my Shrews save in their first venture into the championship - wow its a challenge lower down that league!

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On 12/09/2020 at 06:28, Federico said:

As said somewhere else, the lack of competion should be considered a badge of honor for SI and not a complain as they succeeded where the others failed, may you like FM or not.

A lot of that is because people play FM out of tradition, so to speak.  I'm pretty sure it was the first.  Well, Championship Manager but most know the story.  
 

I've never tried another one, I don't have the time or patience to give it a go.  Plenty of people have kids who play just because they do too.  Then get addicted.  Or though friends who got addicted through parents or whatever... Tradition man, tradition.  It's not the quality, right now.  Especially when you're younger and haven't played anything like it.  You just get hooked on it because it's new and fun and the best ever.  Then you find all the problems after you've played constantly forever. 

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Here's my time played on Steam.

FM11: 792 hours
FM12: 780 hours
FM13: 641 hours
FM14: 668 hours
FM15: 285 hours
FM16: 337  hours
FM17: 302 hours
FM18: 276 hours
FM19: 118 hours
FM20: 0 hours, despite receiving the game for free

It's not looking good for FM21.

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