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To be honest, I'll try it. The silence from the SI about the bugs maybe a signal that they gonna fix this (poor setpieces, 1v1, ridiculous defend, last minute goals and others aspect which I may forgotten). FM 2020 is almost unplayable, for sure the worst FM ever. Anyway, the ideia of the game still great and I can't believe that SI will throw the game's reputation on trash.
It's annoys me people saying "the problem is in your tactic" or "you are stupid, this game is great and you don't know how to play it"

Definily I gonna make one last shot. But if FM2021 have 30% of this ME, I'll never try even the demo in further editions.

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The developers need to make much better efforts with the final product. I only purchase FM every 3-4 years. I love spending years managing my teams, although game bugs are always evident and ruined one save years ago.

Please include inflation of prize money, wages, sponsorship and transfer fees. Following 18 seasons on one save, the Champions Cup money is still 2.4Million a win.

What we want is realistic gameplay.

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I never buy day 1 anyway becasue theres always bugs so i'll do what i usually do, wait for a couple of patches and see what the feedback is like on the ME. I bought FM20 but i think its one of the most unenjoyable for a few years and constantly find myself going back to previous versions.

Edited by Rich2086
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10 hours ago, anagain said:

And it's not right for people to chuck abuse the way of passionate and hardworking developers...but they do. Frequently.

Also, I'm not trying to tell you you can't have dislikes about the game, or things within the ME that you feel are wrong. I have those and I feel it is important for people to post feedback on these issues. Whilst I feel the game is good, I never said it can't be perfected. Constructive feedback, with examples, is hugely important to any game. What I don't like to see, and what is never needed, is people that direct hate at the developers of the game. The original post in this thread included stuff that I don't think is needed. It may have been tame in comparison with some threads, but I noticed that it received a moderator comment.

You need to get over this crusade that anyone who might feel the game is good has some need to battle you. No one is telling you not to have problems. You are welcome to feel how you feel, just don't tell me I shouldn't.

Who is "chucking" abuse, all I can see is disgruntled punters not happy with probably the main part of the game, the ME. There's no point whatsoever in doing everything possible to make your team the best and then watch an ME screw you over because of multiple bugs in it.

The big problem with this years game is YES you can win, I and many more have no problem doing this but it's the manner of the wins, the ME is just so boring, same goals, same errors etc etc, it becomes just so boring to watch as every game just looks the same.  Good example of the ME is I play as Hibernian and I'm playing Celtic who've won 8 titles in a row at the start of the game, Celtic come out and are playing ultra defensively and hitting me on the counter. This is the same Celtic who've beaten almost everyone for the past 8 seasons are suddenly scared of Hibs, why? This just doesn't happen in real life, the ME doesn't seem to acknowledge who is the stronger teams in game, it seems to see you as the the main player and the AI teams no matter who are set up the same, well that's how it looks, the same set up when I play Rangers also.

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Personally I feel deceived about FM19 and FM20.
It was definitely not worth the time and money I spent.

In this way I will not buy FM21 before last patch at least. Also I dont believe FM21 will be really improved as we want.
But I realize that my disappointment will not be a tragedy for SI, despite we can see more negative feedbacks in community, general customer base increases and 78.7k Steam players online right now.

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Probably yes. Even if I get just 10 hours of entertainment out of it, it's worth the money for me. I get that that is not the case for a lot of people, but for me it is.

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If you look at FM 20 as a standalone game it's brilliant and nothing comes close to it. No other football game is so complex and addictive. The problem is when you start comparing it with previous versions. It's really a step down to previous FMs in terms of execution. The ideas are fine, but the way the implemented them is not so good. This is the main problem - we are expecting every year the game to be better than before. 

 

 

 

 

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1 hour ago, Impacto said:

If you look at FM 20 as a standalone game it's brilliant and nothing comes close to it. No other football game is so complex and addictive. The problem is when you start comparing it with previous versions. It's really a step down to previous FMs in terms of execution. The ideas are fine, but the way the implemented them is not so good. This is the main problem - we are expecting every year the game to be better than before. 

 

 

 

 

That’s well said. In addition, patches have become inevitable to make the game “playable” for some. We all expect this, as do SI I think. That’s not a criticism as annual releases, amongst other pressures, are tough to deliver. Sure the release versions could be improved, but we’d all probably rather have our hands on the game. Chasing improvement at release should be a goal, with a firm reminder Perfection is the enemy of progress. 
 

what the hell I’ll buy it again on release. Just hopeful for improvement. Reality is this game is such a large part of life that I’d be disappointed if they ever stopped. In that case I will support. 

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I will buy it.  I first started with FM18.  Ironically, I didn't play FM18 much because I didn't understand it.  Then I purchased FM19 and played it a little more because I understood it better.  However, I still did not play it a lot.  I purchased FM20 and play it a lot.  There is still a lot that I am learning but the game is really very, very fun and engaging.  Now I am hooked.

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19 часов назад, Marko1989 сказал:

you could clearly see on a pitch difference for example between inside forward who loves to place his shots and inside forward who love to shot with power, you could clearly see the difference between target man and some pacy small striker, you can't see any of that in these new engines.

Exactly :thup: One of my favourite things in old editions of FM was searching of players because this is really was important. When I found player which I really need it feeled like finished puzzle.
For now I dont feel a real difference. For sure better players give better results but you know what I mean ;)  

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I know exactly what do you mean :) You could search for a player by attributes that suits your needs.

If you wanted attacking oriented midfielder that will score a couple of goals - You could search for player with good long shots attribute, learn him shot with power or from distance and he will from time to time score some stunners, nowadays, it is completely irrelevant what his long shot attribute is. I don't know where SI is heading with this engine but it is not for me anymore.

 

I would really love SI to do this -- 

Please take FM 2015 and put Hatem Ben Arfa on the right wing and on the left wing put Mephis Depay.

From Ben Arfa you will see some well placed goals and from Depay you will clearly see that he love to puts power in his shots. You will clearly see two styles of play, depending on attributes and player traits.

And then take FM 2020, put same players, or players with same attributes like those two and you will not be able to see any difference.

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Lol. FM 15-18 Were broken with teams who couldn't defend. FM 19 and 20 made defending alot harder but it then made attacking alot more harder. Is FM20 perfect no, is it better than other FMs yes. Is the ME the most fun, no. 18 was the pinacle in attacking play and 20 is pinacle in defending and pressing. SI is trying to get the balance right, with the new TC they are trying to balance out the match engine

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33 minutes ago, Amarante said:

Lol. FM 15-18 Were broken with teams who couldn't defend. FM 19 and 20 made defending alot harder but it then made attacking alot more harder. Is FM20 perfect no, is it better than other FMs yes. Is the ME the most fun, no. 18 was the pinacle in attacking play and 20 is pinacle in defending and pressing. SI is trying to get the balance right, with the new TC they are trying to balance out the match engine

Attacking in FM 20 harder? haha!

Let me show you something. One of my best friends is playing 2020 with self made tactics. He reached Champions League finals with all these teams in span of 4 seasons for each - 

Az Alkmar, Deportivo La Coruna, Anderlecht, and now with Bologna. His players are always top scorers in Champions League. Screenshot with Juventus is his third season with Bologna.

So please, don't talk nonsense. FM 2020 attacking can be hard only because one on one is disastrous.

Sorry for bad screenshots he is sending me them via Viber.

 

Screenshot_4.png

Screenshot_5.png

Screenshot_3.png

Edited by Marko1989
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2 hours ago, Marko1989 said:

Attacking in FM 20 harder? haha!

Let me show you something. One of my best friends is playing 2020 with self made tactics. He reached Champions League finals with all these teams in span of 4 seasons for each - 

Az Alkmar, Deportivo La Coruna, Anderlecht, and now with Bologna. His players are always top scorers in Champions League. Screenshot with Juventus is his third season with Bologna.

So please, don't talk nonsense. FM 2020 attacking can be hard only because one on one is disastrous.

Sorry for bad screenshots he is sending me them via Viber.

 

Screenshot_4.png

Screenshot_5.png

Screenshot_3.png

A think you might have miss understood me, i don't have a problem attacking. My strikers just won't finish my chances and even then i still score lots o fgoals. I like the look of that tactic though, please share

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9 hours ago, Amarante said:

A think you might have miss understood me, i don't have a problem attacking. My strikers just won't finish my chances and even then i still score lots o fgoals. I like the look of that tactic though, please share

I didn't miss understood you, you've said that attacking is a lot harder in 2020.

He won't share his team instructions with me since we are competing againste each other, but I have screenshot of his formation only when he played with Deportivo. 

Screenshot_20200901_110226.jpg

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On 30/08/2020 at 15:50, Marko1989 said:

After FM 2018, 19, 20 I think I am close not to buy any FM in many coming years.

Nah, FM18 is brilliant, imo.  Not perfect by any means.  I've loved just about every second of it and haven't felt the need to buy a new version since.  But at this point I've been jealous of the added features for awhile now, particularly training, so I hope FM21 comes good.

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30 minutes ago, Analog said:

Nah, FM18 is brilliant, imo.  Not perfect by any means.  I've loved just about every second of it and haven't felt the need to buy a new version since.  But at this point I've been jealous of the added features for awhile now, particularly training, so I hope FM21 comes good.

I don't remember were corner flag long shots fixed in 2018 but that was the thing that prevented me from enjoying that version. 

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23 minutes ago, Marko1989 said:

I don't remember were corner flag long shots fixed in 2018 but that was the thing that prevented me from enjoying that version. 

From short corners?  No.  :D  Play the corner short, put two creative players with really good long shots outside the area.  After the short corner the ball goes out to the edge of the area for a decent shot or a drop off to a nearby player.  Scored a fair few that way.  Is that what you mean?

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1 hour ago, Analog said:

From short corners?  No.  :D  Play the corner short, put two creative players with really good long shots outside the area.  After the short corner the ball goes out to the edge of the area for a decent shot or a drop off to a nearby player.  Scored a fair few that way.  Is that what you mean?

No, no, there was a major issue with long shots in that version. Some long shot attempts would go near the corner flag, 20 meters away from the goal. With some quick research you can find posts about that on this forum :)

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13 minutes ago, Marko1989 said:

No, no, there was a major issue with long shots in that version. Some long shot attempts would go near the corner flag, 20 meters away from the goal. With some quick research you can find posts about that on this forum :)

Oh, yeah.  Well that's just finishing in the game in general.  Yeah, that's definitely in there.  When players miss the target, often they REALLY miss the target.  :D

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3 часа назад, DementedHammer сказал:

I actually enjoyed the shockingly poor long shots in FM18 - I was playing a level 26 save at the time and it added a bit of realism to my save! 

But it was a miracle if you scored by direct freekick in FM18 :idiot:

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7 hours ago, Marko1989 said:

No, no, there was a major issue with long shots in that version. Some long shot attempts would go near the corner flag, 20 meters away from the goal. With some quick research you can find posts about that on this forum :)

There is no issue with that, really. Sometimes the shots go way wide, but the % of goals scored outside the box is still realistic and players with good long shots are valuable. Sure, it looks bad but I got used to it so it's a non-issue for me. It's just a faulty animation, that's all. 

 

3 hours ago, Novem9 said:

But it was a miracle if you scored by direct freekick in FM18 :idiot:

Again, I disagree. My good free kick takers score 4-5 a season and I think that is not a bad number. Maybe it can be a little higher, but my teams generally score so many goals it doesn't bother me. 

 

9 hours ago, Analog said:

Nah, FM18 is brilliant, imo.  Not perfect by any means.  I've loved just about every second of it and haven't felt the need to buy a new version since.  But at this point I've been jealous of the added features for awhile now, particularly training, so I hope FM21 comes good.

Now with this I can agree. I still play FM 18 after not being able to get into FM 20. It's just superior in every way for me. FM 20 has some good features, but poorly executed. So I went back to FM 18 and I am still enjoying it. I recently started my millionth Arsenal save and I'm having fun so far. I wish the game could be a bit harder as I was able to assemble a ridiculous squad in no time but what can you do... At least Man Utd are providing a decent challenge in the first seasons. Later on I plan on trying to win it all with just players from the academy, but I might get bored with the save before that, who knows. 

FM 21 will have to be out-of-this-world for me to buy it. And it has to be more difficult. Otherwise I don't see the point of spending my money on it. 

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FM18 regen faces are......... *MILES*....... better than any of the faces that came after.  I don't even care if their skin color randomly changes.  The faces that have come out since have been absolutely shocking.  Some people don't like it when the game becomes mostly regens, but that's when I actually love it the most, so having good looking faces on players is massive for the longevity of the game for me.  I honestly cannot understand how faces in a game can look that bad in 2020, especially considering FM18 faces were actually very decent, albeit buggy.

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That is what is bothering me the most. I can't tell a single one important thing that has been improved in FM 2020 over the previous versions. Graphics/Looks - worse, Match engine - worse.. That is why I don't have much faith in FM 2021.

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41 minutes ago, Marko1989 said:

That is what is bothering me the most. I can't tell a single one important thing that has been improved in FM 2020 over the previous versions. Graphics/Looks - worse, Match engine - worse.. That is why I don't have much faith in FM 2021.

Bit harsh aren't you? The graphics are not worse. I can accept they're not an upgrade on 19, but they're not worse. 

The match engine is a point of view. I don't think it is worse. I think it is a fair representation of football for a simulation based around numbers. Sure, it is not perfect, but I think there are plenty of reasons not to expect perfection. 

There are plenty of other ways in which the game has improved. The whole feel of the game gets slightly better every year. More questions are added to the social systems, the database continues to be world class and systems are upgraded.

Of course, we could all be bitter and unhappy with a year's hard work by SI. For a mere £30 what we get every year amounts to quality.

Is the game perfect? Could certain things be better? Are there weird bugs and odd instances in the social questions? Oh yes.

But, for me, FM is an ongoing effort that steadily improves every year. Maybe I am just an old git with old values, but I hate to see a solid effort so unconstructively written off in so few words.

Do people expect so much more in this millennium?

Edited by anagain
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Harsh - maybe, for other people. For me, it is the worst FM ever released, I bought it and could not play more than one game per day. 

Of course, my oppinion does not mean anything, for example my best friend thinks this is the best FM ever. 

I got back to FM 2015 and I am happy again. 

When I say graphics - I don't think about 3D only, just scroll up and you will see my screenshots how much worse 2D is. 

 

Edited by Marko1989
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6 minutes ago, Marko1989 said:

Harsh - maybe, for other people. For me, it is the worst FM ever released, I bought it and could not play more than one game per day. 

Then I got back to FM 2015 and I am happy again. 

When I say graphics - I don't think about 3D only, just scroll up and you will see my screenshots how much worse 2D is. 

 

I saw your graphics. They weren't better than FM20. Okay, I don't use 2D, but is the point of 2D graphics to look wonderful? The point is to see an overall view of the pitch to see positioning of your players.

And, yes, it is your opinion. I accept that. I accept you can tell if you like a game after a day too. I know one particular game I'd looked forward too, but when I played it I knew within two hours it wasn't good enough. But is FM20, with the depth of features that have been added, worse than FM15? 

If you are happy, that is great but something more constructive than FM15s 2D graphics look better would be nice. They're no different than Rimworld, and people don't play Rimworld to be astonished by the graphics. They play to dive into the depth of gameplay. FM20 has that. 

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12 minutes ago, anagain said:

I saw your graphics. They weren't better than FM20. Okay, I don't use 2D, but is the point of 2D graphics to look wonderful? The point is to see an overall view of the pitch to see positioning of your players.

And, yes, it is your opinion. I accept that. I accept you can tell if you like a game after a day too. I know one particular game I'd looked forward too, but when I played it I knew within two hours it wasn't good enough. But is FM20, with the depth of features that have been added, worse than FM15? 

If you are happy, that is great but something more constructive than FM15s 2D graphics look better would be nice. They're no different than Rimworld, and people don't play Rimworld to be astonished by the graphics. They play to dive into the depth of gameplay. FM20 has that. 

Hm, I think we can stop any conversation after I read this "I saw your graphics, they weren't better than 2020." 

Since you think that 2015 2D match engine does not look better than 2020, I really don't have anything else to say. Wow.. I am impressed. 

 

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37 minutes ago, Marko1989 said:

Hm, I think we can stop any conversation after I read this "I saw your graphics, they weren't better than 2020." 

Since you think that 2015 2D match engine does not look better than 2020, I really don't have anything else to say. Wow.. I am impressed. 

 

FM20. Not 2020. As for your argument, well I don't get your logic. Was FM15 state of the art for its 2D graphics? 

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28 minutes ago, anagain said:

FM20. Not 2020. As for your argument, well I don't get your logic. Was FM15 state of the art for its 2D graphics? 

I don't understand, "FM20 not 2020". FM 20 is 2020, I am not sure what are you saying

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17 minutes ago, Gee_Simpson said:

C'mon, really? The worst FM ever released, that's a bit OTT. 

For me, yes. Without any hesitation. Maybe only FM 2006 was worse to me. 

Every single FM I played like crazy but I can't stand FM 2020.

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I do have to laugh, since I played FM2006 for more than 10 years before finally going to FM18. Other than FM2006, FM20 is my favourite version. 

It's amazing how opinions can vary so wildly from person to person. Good luck to SI in trying to please us all. 

Edited by DementedHammer
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8 hours ago, Marko1989 said:

Harsh - maybe, for other people. For me, it is the worst FM ever released, I bought it and could not play more than one game per day. 

Of course, my oppinion does not mean anything, for example my best friend thinks this is the best FM ever. 

I got back to FM 2015 and I am happy again. 

When I say graphics - I don't think about 3D only, just scroll up and you will see my screenshots how much worse 2D is. 

Worst ever?  They added so much in the past two years to the game though with training revamps and all of other non-match engine stuff.  I haven't even played 19 or 20 but I've watched a lot of those games, and for me all of that stuff really adds up to the overall experience of the game.  

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I'm not sure what it is you think I will be doing with my spare time if FM didn't exist, so of course I will be buying FM21.

Also, if you're complaining about very specific things within the game engine over and over then I think you're taking it waaay too seriously.

 

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8 hours ago, DementedHammer said:

It's amazing how opinions can vary so wildly from person to person. Good luck to SI in trying to please us all. 

Luckily (I hope) they will not for the sake of this game. Everyone is titled to express their feelings but at the end only words + examples or facts can make a difference. Its a shame tactics what would get you crushed in real life  "rewards/blinds" players in fm20 by giving shots and chances and then shock you with missed oportunities. Lets hope in next fm going too attacking and pressing punishes you with counter goals and not just with that one longshot or setpiece goal.

Edited by Pasonen
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Yeah, I'll buy it, I love FM as a winter game when you're stuck in more than the summer (not this one though :D

I don't particularly enjoy FM20 that much but I've still put 500 hours into it, for £23 or whatever it was, I can't grumble 

Even if I came on here & said a big fat "Nope" I know it'd be lies as I'll get sucked into the hype & pre-order anyway :D

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FM20 was the first time I was genuinely disappointed with a Football Manager game, for the first couple months, up until the match-engine update in Jan or feb (if I remember correctly) the game was unplayable.

That said, despite the rocky start, value for money wise it's hard to complain about buying a FM game. Will most probably end up buying FM21, but will wait to see if the ME is solid on release. 

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11 hours ago, gamietaihsi said:

 i am not

i am sick with this buggy match engine

we WONT unnecessary UI changes. we NEED better and improved match engine

They don't NEED to do anything - and plenty of people think the match engine is great (myself included). 

Do you have any specific examples of the 'bugs'? And by 'bugs' do you actually mean quirks or features within the current match engine that you aren't happy with? Have you provided any constructive feedback to SI about the issues you've experienced?

 

Edited by Edinton
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5 hours ago, Edinton said:

They don't NEED to do anything - and plenty of people think the match engine is great (myself included). 

Do you have any specific examples of the 'bugs'? And by 'bugs' do you actually mean quirks or features within the current match engine that you aren't happy with? Have you provided any constructive feedback to SI about the issues you've experienced?

 

I'm assuming you've seen the amount of ME bug reports. About 6 thousand, many unanswered, loads with "known issue".

https://community.sigames.com/forum/739-match-engine-ai-and-tactics-this-forum-is-now-closed/

https://community.sigames.com/forum/740-match-engine-art-animations-benchmarking-performance-facegen-and-manager-man/

Edited by Tiger666
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17 hours ago, Tiger666 said:

Sure, and Neil Brock acknowledges that a great many of them have been read and considered. There's a limit to how much can be done or fixed for each version though. It's also worth considering just how many people play the game versus how many people are angry enough to rant on a thread about how flawed it is...

My point to the previous poster was more to do with the perception of what a 'bug' actually is. I feel like it's a word or phrase thrown around when half the time it's simply a quirk of football (GK mistake causing a goal, wing-back making bad choices, missing one on ones, etc). I've probably shouted at my own (IRL) team's full-back for not making the correct decision with a cross or pass more than I have on FM.

I can also only speak from the many hours spent playing the game and I've seen nowhere near the level of bugginess others apparently have.

Edited by Edinton
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1 hour ago, Tiger666 said:

i have already reported the bugs in the proper era on the forum. thanks.

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1 hour ago, Tiger666 said:

I assume you understand exactly how bugs are fixed, how it is not just a simple case of changing a value here and a value there. Change the wrong thing and you mess something else up. An hour later and you have 25 angry bug reports that say the same thing. 

SI do not have unlimited resources. They have a set number of hours to answer bug reports, access saves and check facts, reproduce the bugs themselves and then it needs to be passed on to the relevant person in the relevant team to be fixed. 

The easy to fix stuff they will likely try to fit in to their patch schedule. The trickier bugs will likely need to be fixed for the next release.

The ME engine is an ongoing thing that is expanded upon and refined for each version of FM. 

Just because SI don't tell you every single little thing they are trying to fix, don't assume they don't try to fix stuff. 

I follow enough games, now and in the past, to know that tht is not how game development works. 

SI want this game to be perfect. That I believe, and that I have seen members of SI say on these forums in the 15 years I have been here. 

I think you need to understand the work they do before you make assumptions that they are pulling the wool over our eyes. 

 

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6 minutes ago, anagain said:

I assume you understand exactly how bugs are fixed, how it is not just a simple case of changing a value here and a value there. Change the wrong thing and you mess something else up. An hour later and you have 25 angry bug reports that say the same thing. 

SI do not have unlimited resources. They have a set number of hours to answer bug reports, access saves and check facts, reproduce the bugs themselves and then it needs to be passed on to the relevant person in the relevant team to be fixed. 

The easy to fix stuff they will likely try to fit in to their patch schedule. The trickier bugs will likely need to be fixed for the next release.

The ME engine is an ongoing thing that is expanded upon and refined for each version of FM. 

Just because SI don't tell you every single little thing they are trying to fix, don't assume they don't try to fix stuff. 

I follow enough games, now and in the past, to know that tht is not how game development works. 

SI want this game to be perfect. That I believe, and that I have seen members of SI say on these forums in the 15 years I have been here. 

I think you need to understand the work they do before you make assumptions that they are pulling the wool over our eyes. 

 

No idea what you're on about. I've not criticised the bug procedure. My point is, posters are perfectly entitled to complain about a buggy match engine without having to prove in here that they've reported them or have provided constructive feedback. The bugs are well known, we don't need to repeatedly report them to have a valid complaint, especially in a bug forum that's now closed.

Edited by Tiger666
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