Will anyone be buying FM21?

[andu1]

I guess we are closing in fast on the FM 21 announcement. I imagine the game will be released sometimes in December considering all that happened this year.

[Sloak]

Fm is a soccer simulation. Does it approximate soccer exactly? No. No sports game does. In 2K you can green light (100% make) every shot if you’re good enough, in Madden receivers make insane catches or running backs truck 5 guys in one play, in MLB you can smack everything out of the park. In PES every single shot has a good chance of going in and in FIFA every pass works. No game can 100% simulate the sport, it gets as close as it can. When you look at the game you can’t pay attention to every single thing that happens, you need to look at trends and abstracts. When I watch Liverpool and My save trying to emulate Liverpool do they look the exact same? No. Do I get goals in similar ways and exploit defenses the way they do? Yes. If you expect your video game to perfectly emulate a real life sport I’d suggest you try other video games and see how well they emulate it.

[orlyzao]

3 hours ago, imabearlol said:

FM2020 was the first game I didn't buy since the CM days. As a huge fan of the series it saddened me to see so many negative comments on the game and it was the first of the series I didn't pre-order. I kept waiting for positive reviews so I could finally buy the game but that time just never came, and so I'm still playing and enjoying my save on FM2019. It seems to me that the new features introduced yearly are becoming increasingly less exciting while the bread and butter aspects of the game do not improve and in some cases even go backwards. It's a great shame, but I feel forced to take the same approach with FM2021 as I did with FM2020 and wait until I can get a good picture on whether it would be worth buying or not. I really hope it will be.

The game is free right now on Epic game store if you want to play it.

 

[Sloak]

6 hours ago, steam just is said:

Brilliant post. Computer games should be fun. Football in itself is fun, just look at this most recent weekend of PL action. I don’t know what happened or why but the ME traded in spontaneity for functionality. Rather than being a slightly hyper version of football it became a leaden version. I’ve said it before it plays like a game of maths not football and that isn’t realistic it’s just plain boring. 
im sure SI are listening. I’m sure they can see this for themselves. Fingers crossed on 21!

I and the 50,000 people who are online at any given time on average would like to disagree. If you want a arcade soccer game with spontaneity, go play FIFA or Pes my guy. I’ve had a blast on FM20, it’s easily favorite video game of all time. I don’t enjoy COD, but you won’t see me complaining on their forums about how it’s “not fun”. It’s obviously a massively successful game with a huge audience who find it fun, like FM. If you have issues, raise them, don’t just come on and claim it’s not fun, because there’s 50,000 people who at this exact moment would like to argue that.

[DeanMon]

I don't think all gamers look for fun when playing games. I personally play games to be challenged, especially intellectually challenged. FM is a simulation game, meaning it looks to be as close to reality as possible. You play FM to imitate Guardiola, Klopp, Flick,... right? Does being a real-life football manager seem fun? I don't think so.

If you look for entertainment, may I suggest PSG? Otherwise, it does not make sense to ask a simulation game to become simplified or cheaply entertaining.

[themadsheep2001]

Actually FM tries to strike a balance between all things, which is both its strength and weakness, because different people want different things from it, and some of those things directly contradict each other

[DeanMon]

31 minutes ago, themadsheep2001 said:

Actually FM tries to strike a balance between all things, which is both its strength and weakness, because different people want different things from it, and some of those things directly contradict each other

The entertainment value comes naturally from the satisfaction of the correct emulation of the job. SI should be crytal-clear which demands are justified, and which are not. Chasing multiple contradicting targets only drags the game from lows to lows.

[Rich2086]

15 hours ago, coppicat said:

During Covid I bought FM for the first time in 15 years and as a previous addict I was really looking forward to spend time on my guilty pleasure. I am playing Nottingham Forrest and won in the playoffs to get promoted first year. Second year I finished 7th in the Premiership and miraculously won the Carabao Cup . Now in my third season I am maybe going to get a spot in the Europa League. How did I do it? I have no clue as the results seem to come at random. What is even more serious.... I actually didnt have fun. I am so frustrated playing this game that I actually have to remind myself that its all going quite well.  

I play standard tactics and dont check to much online what works and what doesnt. With the results I have had, you would imagine you would have a sense of achievement.... but instead it just seems like hard work all the time and you never have a sense of what works and what doesnt. It actually does seem like the ME is a step ahead of you at all times and you have never been handed the tools to figure out what is actually happening in a game. It also seems like all games you play are balancing on a knifes edge and the slightest little mistake in the eye of the ME will cost you dearly. I mean its plain and simple mind boggling what you encounter over a season. 

For the last couple of months I have spent a ridiculous amount of time on this game cause I was too stubborn to give up. I just couldn't believe that there was not a certain something I had totally missed which made this game so extremely frustrating..... and that's when I finally went online to find out that there were so many others that had that same feeling.

There are many aspects of the game that are nice but nothing works if the core of a game is thoroughly flawed and it this case the ME brings everything down. As in any field of the entertainment industry a computer game has to be judged on one thing only in the very end. That one thing is if its fun ... if you are having a good time. Too this question I can honestly say that this game has not in any way been fun, far from it actually. It has in fact has been extremely frustrating.

Did it get too complicated? Did the programmers want it too realistic? Did nobody focus on "gaming experience". In my opinion the one thing that is certain is that they completely lost the plot on this one. I will certainly not buy FM again... its just not fun. Probably a blessing in disguise that I chose to return to FM in this version as I would be spending way too much time on what was once a great game. Hopefully SI will be able to rectify this, but I wouldnt be at all surprised if they will feel the repercussions of this blunder on the bottom line next year.   

   

    

      

Great post.

 

This pretty much sums up my feelings on FM20 its so massively frustrating, I havnt really enjoyed the 200+ hours i've spent on it, despite some decent success. I do fear that a lot of people will have picked this up in lockdown or now free on epic and feel the same.  

[themadsheep2001]

1 hour ago, DeanMon said:

The entertainment value comes naturally from the satisfaction of the correct emulation of the job. SI should be crytal-clear which demands are justified, and which are not. Chasing multiple contradicting targets only drags the game from lows to lows.

This doesn't make any sense, entertainment is massively subjective. SI will already have a clear idea, but still doesn't mean justifiable demands aren't still contrary. That's why they pick and choose what features they go with 

[Gee_Simpson]

12 hours ago, imabearlol said:

FM2020 was the first game I didn't buy since the CM days. As a huge fan of the series it saddened me to see so many negative comments on the game and it was the first of the series I didn't pre-order. I kept waiting for positive reviews so I could finally buy the game but that time just never came, and so I'm still playing and enjoying my save on FM2019. It seems to me that the new features introduced yearly are becoming increasingly less exciting while the bread and butter aspects of the game do not improve and in some cases even go backwards. It's a great shame, but I feel forced to take the same approach with FM2021 as I did with FM2020 and wait until I can get a good picture on whether it would be worth buying or not. I really hope it will be.

You didn't buy a game based on other people's opinions of it? Why not try it yourself? This site doesn't = the whole FM player base, and who's to say you would agree with them anyway?

Edited September 22, 2020 by Gee_Simpson

[forameuss]

8 hours ago, Gee_Simpson said:

You didn't buy a game based on other people's opinions of it? Why not try it yourself? This site doesn't = the whole FM player base, and who's to say you would agree with them anyway?

Absolutely this.  I've never understood it.  People seem to be a lot less inclined to form their own opinions, and oddly take that of complete strangers as gospel.  Even professional, critical reviews are flawed, as they remain one person's subjective view of a product, so I've never understood why you'd go to somewhere where opinion is going to be biased one way or the other, and is very unlikely to mesh with your own feelings.  Particularly when there's a free, fully-featured (although time-limited) demo every single year.  

Trust your own instincts, form your own opinions.

8 hours ago, themadsheep2001 said:

This doesn't make any sense, entertainment is massively subjective. SI will already have a clear idea, but still doesn't mean justifiable demands aren't still contrary. That's why they pick and choose what features they go with 

An important distinction.  Every single person is going to have a completely different view as to how they believe FM should be, and SI are no different.  They'll have their roadmap, and their vision, and I can almost guarantee that that roadmap is going to have the product driving in the opposite direction to where a lot of people hope.  Personally I've only just managed to get along with an edition by spending a lot of time in the past couple of months with 20 - 19 and 18 were complete duds for me, and it felt like the game was moving away from what I loved it for.  And that's fine.  Things change, and they're never going to be made just for you.

[Arnar]

19 hours ago, Sloak said:

Fm is a soccer simulation. Does it approximate soccer exactly? No. No sports game does. In 2K you can green light (100% make) every shot if you’re good enough, in Madden receivers make insane catches or running backs truck 5 guys in one play, in MLB you can smack everything out of the park. In PES every single shot has a good chance of going in and in FIFA every pass works. No game can 100% simulate the sport, it gets as close as it can. When you look at the game you can’t pay attention to every single thing that happens, you need to look at trends and abstracts. When I watch Liverpool and My save trying to emulate Liverpool do they look the exact same? No. Do I get goals in similar ways and exploit defenses the way they do? Yes. If you expect your video game to perfectly emulate a real life sport I’d suggest you try other video games and see how well they emulate it.

No you dont hit every shot in 2k if you green light it no way.

And in fifa not every pass works its assisted but passes miss.

Also i dont think people expect the game to be like real life, but if you can predict in 90% of highlights what will happen. I just takes the fun out of the game. I also think that the game should not try and have similar stats like in real life for conversion of penalties or how many goals are scored etc.

I got curious and went back and took all shots, on target, woodwork, off target, how many shots both for my team and the teams i played and it was the same %.  .44% of shots were on target, .34% off target, .21% were blocked and .04 hit woodwork it was the same for the ai. But they shot 2 times per game and i 30 times. 

Like in fm19 i won bundesliga x3 times in a row 2x german cup and cl back to back with leverkusen, then went to liverpool and won pl, cl, fa cup, carabou cup 2 years in a row because teams refused to attack against me. Went to real madrid and was leading at nou camp 3-0 at half time and barcelona went ultra defensive 4 defenders, 2cdms, rm cm lm and cam that makes no sense at all. After that i just stopped playing the game everyone just parked the bus. 

10 hours ago, Gee_Simpson said:

You didn't buy a game based on other people's opinions of it? Why not try it yourself? This site doesn't = the whole FM player base, and who's to say you would agree with them anyway?

I did not buy it also because of reviews i saw here. Fm18&19 were no fun so i did not bother with the demo. If you spend time on this forum then you will see people who have similar opinion to yourself so if they talk about issues then im pretty sure that i would be bothered with those issues.

I hope fm21 will be better i have been playing fm17 over the summer and its so much more fun to play then 18&19 imo.

Edited September 22, 2020 by Arnar

[Svenc]

1 hour ago, forameuss said:

Particularly when there's a free, fully-featured (although time-limited) demo every single year.  

I've always been a demo man ever since my first purchase. Not sure whether things used to be different -- but in particular according to GD, every single release ever since FM 2008 was all around pretty much subpar. This thread, likewise, is a repeat of a thread that appears every year.  Makes you wonder how these guys are still in business.
 

12 hours ago, themadsheep2001 said:

Actually FM tries to strike a balance between all things, which is both its strength and weakness, because different people want different things from it, and some of those things directly contradict each other

Commercially it's pretty much all around strength, but personally I think on the design end they've come to stretch themselves a bit too much. This fall, for me, has been pretty much reserved for Baldur's Gate 3's Early Access for instance. Whilst this too is a franchise that may appeal to hundreds of thousands, and whilst the devs decision to go turn-based combat has caused kerfuffles (the predecessors were all real-time); amongst the target audience everybody is still looking for roughly the same experience.

On FM's end you've got players who'd prefer to get barely involved in anything much, the vice versa; and a whole host of preferences in between (let alone the demands for financial things a manager doesn't deal with). To top it off, SI don't seem to yet fully embrace that they are simulating the perfect job for catering to a target as wide as that, as real managers work with all kinds of assistants in real football, including tactical, training, and much much more.

Edited September 22, 2020 by Svenc

[Sloak]

2 hours ago, Arnar said:

No you dont hit every shot in 2k if you green light it no way.

And in fifa not every pass works its assisted but passes miss.

Also i dont think people expect the game to be like real life, but if you can predict in 90% of highlights what will happen. I just takes the fun out of the game. I also think that the game should not try and have similar stats like in real life for conversion of penalties or how many goals are scored etc.

I got curious and went back and took all shots, on target, woodwork, off target, how many shots both for my team and the teams i played and it was the same %.  .44% of shots were on target, .34% off target, .21% were blocked and .04 hit woodwork it was the same for the ai. But they shot 2 times per game and i 30 times. 

Like in fm19 i won bundesliga x3 times in a row 2x german cup and cl back to back with leverkusen, then went to liverpool and won pl, cl, fa cup, carabou cup 2 years in a row because teams refused to attack against me. Went to real madrid and was leading at nou camp 3-0 at half time and barcelona went ultra defensive 4 defenders, 2cdms, rm cm lm and cam that makes no sense at all. After that i just stopped playing the game everyone just parked the bus.

1. Yes you do, that’s the point. Have you ever watched a good park player play? It’s greens to 21 get off my court.

2. Yes obviously every pass doesn’t work. Please google the word “hyperbole” for me and report back on your findings. 
 

3. “I don’t want my sim game to simulate real life” ok go play FIFA or Pes that aren’t sim games.

4. I’m not sure what the point of this paragraph was tbh.

5. Sounds like you were doing well, and that would be a 4231 my good sir, most likely with Messi playing in the amc as an f9. Barcelona may or may not have a rich history of using this tactic.

Edited September 22, 2020 by Sloak

[steam just is]

19 hours ago, Sloak said:

I and the 50,000 people who are online at any given time on average would like to disagree. If you want a arcade soccer game with spontaneity, go play FIFA or Pes my guy. I’ve had a blast on FM20, it’s easily favorite video game of all time. I don’t enjoy COD, but you won’t see me complaining on their forums about how it’s “not fun”. It’s obviously a massively successful game with a huge audience who find it fun, like FM. If you have issues, raise them, don’t just come on and claim it’s not fun, because there’s 50,000 people who at this exact moment would like to argue that.

I don’t know why people get so defensive here. I’m not criticising you for saying it’s fun and obviously it’s all about opinions.

I don’t want an arcade game. Please show me where I said that.

Clearly I can only give my own opinion. I don’t find it fun. Many people agree, many people disagree. Please don’t tell me to go and play some completely different type of game and I won’t tell you what to do.

[imabearlol]

17 hours ago, orlyzao said:

The game is free right now on Epic game store if you want to play it.

 

Thanks! Just saw this, am downloading it now

 

9 hours ago, Gee_Simpson said:

You didn't buy a game based on other people's opinions of it? Why not try it yourself? This site doesn't = the whole FM player base, and who's to say you would agree with them anyway?

I have the opportunity to try it now so that's great. Mainly the reason I didn't pre-order it initially was that I wasn't excited about the new features, they just seemed like skins on top of a system that already exists. I was then waiting to see whether the new features were worth it, but it never seemed like this was the case. Without improvements in the core system as well, it just didn't seem worth buying.

[Cro-cop]

When do you guys think we can expect some news about FM 21?

[Tony Wright 747]

2 hours ago, Cro-cop said:

When do you guys think we can expect some news about FM 21?

This is a difficult one.  Football is in a state of flux, Macclesfield gone, Southend to follow possibly, Wigan in big trouble.  With no spectators for the forseeable future, more clubs likely to follow.  It must be difficult for SI to decide what clubs are going to be included in the game or not.  I guess at some point there will be a cut off point for these decisions and this might affect release date.

[LeeWHU888]

Not too sure if I'll buy it tbh, 

It's the best management simulator out there, however I think this also affects the progress. There's no competition from anyone else so SI know that they haven't got to do too much each year and they're still going to coin it in.

I think with the current affairs we have going on in the world, now is the perfect opportunity for SI not release a game this year (just release squad updates) and concentrate on polishing up the current format and maybe even release a book that explains the in's and outs of the game.

I understand that it's a simulation and I understand it's meant to be a challenge but the game is way too complex for most people to understand. Just because there's a few of you on here who do understand it doesn't mean evereryone else does. I've read countless "guides", I've watched countless videos, you go away and take on board what is said, you get successful then out of nowhere, the tactic stops working and it seems the game does everything it can to stop you winning (constant late goals, equalisers from 20-30 yards late on, giving silly penalties away, opposition GK saving everything)Now I know it doesn't do that however, 90% of people who have issues all say similar things which makes people question the game. 

There's no way a video game should be that complex that people "need" to do so much research to understand it. Take team mentality for an example, people start a game up, create a tactic and read the description of each one to decide what they want to use. So lets say they want to emulate Guardiola, they'll probably choose an attacking mentaility as, in the description, it sounds like a Guardiola tactic. They go though the process of building their tactic and they get to "Out of Possession", they see LOE and they push it up to much higher because that's what Pep does, they then see Defensive Line and push that up to much higher because again, that's what pep does. Now at no point in this process has it been explained that because they've selected the attacking mentality, their LOE and DL has automatically been pushed up, so they've now ramped both of them up to the highest possible setting. They play a few games, their tactic gets ripped apart, they come on here for help, show their tactic and then everyone has to explain how the game works. "Go and read so and so's guide" "go and watch so and so's videos" People don't want to do all that, they have probably 3 maybe 4 hours max per night if they're lucky to play the game, they shouldn't have to spend most of their time researching stuff.

For me, video games are a break away from normality, it's my own little world where I can just chill out for a few hours each night and have fun, however, I've increasingly found that over the years, the full version of this game requires so much time to actually get it right, Having to watch the matches to find out where your tactic is going wrong? Most people haven't got time for that and I fear that as the years go by, the youngsters of today won't get gripped by the game like a lot of us did back in the late 90's early 00's and that's when we'll start to see a sharp decline in sales. My 12 year son started playing it this year, he watched me during lockdown and wanted to try it himself. He played for around 3 maybe 4 days before saying "this game is crap, it's too hard" He said he's gonna get FM21 because it might be easier (I've told him it won't be). He'll play that for around 3 days, realise it's still hard and that will be it for him, he won't go back to it ever again because it's been too hard. I imagine that's the reality of most kids who have tried to play it.

[Sloak]

8 hours ago, steam just is said:

I don’t know why people get so defensive here. I’m not criticising you for saying it’s fun and obviously it’s all about opinions.

I don’t want an arcade game. Please show me where I said that.

Clearly I can only give my own opinion. I don’t find it fun. Many people agree, many people disagree. Please don’t tell me to go and play some completely different type of game and I won’t tell you what to do.

I’m not getting defensive, I’m just not sure why you A. Are on the official forums of a game you don’t find fun complaining about it B. Don’t have anything better to do but complain about things you don’t like.

You want spontaneity and a game that doesn’t follow real life trends. In what ways is that a sim game? If it’s not a simulation sports game, it’s an arcade sports game, there’s only 2 ways of making sports games.

Absolutely you’re allowed to voice your opinion, as am I. Your opinion is that the game isn’t fun, my opinion is that if you think that you should spend less time posting on its forums about how much you don’t like it and more time playing games you have fun with. As I said, If you have anything constructive to say, please suggest it to the developers, don’t just “not fun”. And I’m not telling you it bc I don’t want you to play FM, I’d like as big of a community as possible for the game. I’m telling you to because you’re spending time complaining about it rather than doing something you enjoy or something productive with your time. 

[Arnar]

10 hours ago, Sloak said:

1. Yes you do, that’s the point. Have you ever watched a good park player play? It’s greens to 21 get off my court.

2. Yes obviously every pass doesn’t work. Please google the word “hyperbole” for me and report back on your findings. 
 

3. “I don’t want my sim game to simulate real life” ok go play FIFA or Pes that aren’t sim games.

4. I’m not sure what the point of this paragraph was tbh.

5. Sounds like you were doing well, and that would be a 4231 my good sir, most likely with Messi playing in the amc as an f9. Barcelona may or may not have a rich history of using this tactic.

1. Ok it wasent that way when i played it last time.

2. Ok my point still stands 

3. Ohh i would like it to simulate real life but that is not happening. Kinda pointless to have real life stats if the game is predictable. Fm 17 i cant predict whats gonna happen when i see the highlight but i can in 18&19. 

4. I find it odd that every shot, on target, off target, woodwork and blocked have the same % over a whole season

In 38 games i took 1144 shots ai took 138.

44% of my and 47% ai was on target

34% of my and 30% ai were off target

21% were blocked

4% hit the woodwork

Also that teams avg 2 shot tries per game against me even though they were defensive they didnt even try attacking. Didnt matter if it was atletico, barca or girona. You dont see that irl.

5. Not really the same tactic as barca has history of using they used 433 with messi as a f9 yes but not this. You think they are trying to attack at nou camp 3-0 down?

[CityAndColour]

I stopped playing FM20 in March, which is the earliest I've ever done that on an FM game.

Has kind of made me hungrier for 21 though.

[JR866Gunner]

I am having a great time on FM20 and in no way do I read too much into what others say as this is for me to try and see if I enjoy it. The issues others have may not affect me or have any bearing on how I play.

Granted I am not winning the champs league or even in the premier league right now, I havent have the most successful time of it but I am liking this version as I would any other version. I shall continue to buy it as I still get enjoyment out of it and will look forward to taking on my fave league 2 team Cambridge and see if I have what it takes to finally gain promotion! 

[mp_87]

Reading the last page or so I think ideally SI need to go further in differentiating the versions of the game. They need to spell out (rather than the gentle steer that is on the whole given) that if you want "fun", classic-style, fast-sim, minimal input way of playing then buy FM Touch. Full fat FM should be all consuming, take much thought and consideration, need maximum tinkering, be headache inducing, require you to be all in, slower gameplay, and strives to be a version far more towards the realities of football management. And really, isn't for most players.

I'd probably say about 90% of FM'ers really should be playing the Touch version in this scenario. Highly highly unlikely they do go down this route, for many reasons, but I'd reckon a vast number of the complaints and dissent about FM would disappear straightaway if people played the version of the game more suitable to their outlook/play style/time constraints/knowledge.

Edited September 23, 2020 by mp_87

[KingCanary]

1 hour ago, mp_87 said:

Reading the last page or so I think ideally SI need to go further in differentiating the versions of the game. They need to spell out (rather than the gentle steer that is on the whole given) that if you want "fun", classic-style, fast-sim, minimal input way of playing then buy FM Touch. Full fat FM should be all consuming, take much thought and consideration, need maximum tinkering, be headache inducing, require you to be all in, slower gameplay, and strives to be a version far more towards the realities of football management. And really, isn't for most players.

I'd probably say about 90% of FM'ers really should be playing the Touch version in this scenario. Highly highly unlikely they do go down this route, for many reasons, but I'd reckon a vast number of the complaints and dissent about FM would disappear straightaway if people played the version of the game more suitable to their outlook/play style/time constraints/knowledge.

Disagree with this.

Most complaints I've seen about the game being frustrating are based around the match engine. As far as I'm aware that doesn't change depending on the version you play. For me, FM 20 is the best game I've played for everything outside of the ME- it has the right balance in general of being able to delegate things to other staff members (I never touch training for instance) and I've generally been able to minimise annoying extra stuff much more so than in previous versions.

I don't see many others complaining about the game being less fun for reasons outside of the ME either. Switching to touch doesn't change that.

[mp_87]

1 hour ago, KingCanary said:

Disagree with this.

Most complaints I've seen about the game being frustrating are based around the match engine. As far as I'm aware that doesn't change depending on the version you play. For me, FM 20 is the best game I've played for everything outside of the ME- it has the right balance in general of being able to delegate things to other staff members (I never touch training for instance) and I've generally been able to minimise annoying extra stuff much more so than in previous versions.

I don't see many others complaining about the game being less fun for reasons outside of the ME either. Switching to touch doesn't change that.

I don't disagree with that, I have made my feelings known on things like the ME and UI and how things are presented to the player many times, but that is a few steps along the line...

Most people I know, non-forum posters (which will be the vast majority of FM users), who have played FM in the recent past all say the same thing - Would love to play the game still and have fond memories of it from their adolescence, but it's far too complex and detailed for them to get into it or to allow for their scarce free time.

Then you look at the FM online world, and there are many, many, many people who dissent because of the complexity of the game, or freely admit to skipping huge swathes of the game. They can't get into tactics, training, press conferences, scouting, analysis, etc. They just want to buy the obvious sh*t-hot players from that years version, put them out with minimal input/minimal watching (or even none, instant result....) with a plug n play winning tactic. Many times I have seen posts bemoaning for instance "How did I concede late on? I clicked defensive, we should be able to hold out", they want it to be that easy to achieve.

Realistic or not, I do think separating the games further would be my way to go. Better marketing of Touch (or as I've said before, rename it back to Classic) as a majorly slimmed down, quicker and 'easier' version. Full fat FM as the all-in, no option to skip things, ultra serious, ultra time, consuming version.

[Brother Ben]

20 minutes ago, mp_87 said:

I don't disagree with that, I have made my feelings known on things like the ME and UI and how things are presented to the player many times, but that is a few steps along the line...

Most people I know, non-forum posters (which will be the vast majority of FM users), who have played FM in the recent past all say the same thing - Would love to play the game still and have fond memories of it from their adolescence, but it's far too complex and detailed for them to get into it or to allow for their scarce free time.

Then you look at the FM online world, and there are many, many, many people who dissent because of the complexity of the game, or freely admit to skipping huge swathes of the game. They can't get into tactics, training, press conferences, scouting, analysis, etc. They just want to buy the obvious sh*t-hot players from that years version, put them out with minimal input/minimal watching (or even none, instant result....) with a plug n play winning tactic. Many times I have seen posts bemoaning for instance "How did I concede late on? I clicked defensive, we should be able to hold out", they want it to be that easy to achieve.

Realistic or not, I do think separating the games further would be my way to go. Better marketing of Touch (or as I've said before, rename it back to Classic) as a majorly slimmed down, quicker and 'easier' version. Full fat FM as the all-in, no option to skip things, ultra serious, ultra time, consuming version.

You make a good point, i've often thought about what name would be better for touch, i don't think Classic cuts it either really.  How about calling the main version "Pro" and dropping the word "touch" from the touch version so that becomes the "main" version

[Svenc]

1 hour ago, mp_87 said:

Realistic or not, I do think separating the games further would be my way to go. Better marketing of Touch (or as I've said before, rename it back to Classic) as a majorly slimmed down, quicker and 'easier' version. Full fat FM as the all-in, no option to skip things, ultra serious, ultra time, consuming version.

IIRC SI already see the handheld releases of FM as the light versions. As argued above, is it really needed to have different releases as opposed to improved assistant AI that can optionally take over anything you want it to take over? (This is also realistic too). The match management for the most part with going on holiday for instance isn't particularly fulfilling. The AI then takes over and you can actually have success that way but there's no much further input. How about the manager optionially deciding on match plans and changing them on the fly during a match if needed (what to do if it's half time and yet level, ten minutes to go and we're behind?), and the tactical assistant carrying out all of that. How about settling on a prefered style and the assistant carrying out the details (linked to a scouting assistant/system looking for future players).

This design can extent to day-to-day training, transfers, every area of the game, even the press dealings, which there is minimal input over (and fear of the ass man screwing up) when sending the assistant now too. This way everybody can tailor their experience as they see fit. As said, it's realistic, as managers have worked with assistants in all areas in the past, often to cover for self-acknowledged weakness, lack of expertise or in order to concentrate on the area of their forte.

Improved AI would benefit everybody too. Those who want to take that AI head-on and do it all themselves, and those that prefer to let it take over whatever part/s of the game they want it to take over. 

Edited September 23, 2020 by Svenc

[Cro-cop]

On 22/09/2020 at 21:42, Tony Wright 747 said:

This is a difficult one.  Football is in a state of flux, Macclesfield gone, Southend to follow possibly, Wigan in big trouble.  With no spectators for the forseeable future, more clubs likely to follow.  It must be difficult for SI to decide what clubs are going to be included in the game or not.  I guess at some point there will be a cut off point for these decisions and this might affect release date.

I see. But taking that view, most of the competitions already started, so i guess they should start with teams that started those competitions.

Thanks for your answer

[Kazza]

I understand Covid will have an impact, as it is  in real footie but they can get around that as it is a game! Skipped 2020. They need to do something that gets me excited again. I hope they do. Good luck to them and if they offer enough I will jump back in.

[Robioto]

On 13/05/2020 at 17:54, Robioto said:

For the first time in 20 years, I will not buy at launch following FM20.

This still stands for me, I will at the very minimum wait for early access opinions, specifically on the match engine.

Still, I'm very much looking forward to see what the new game offers. I still have high hopes. 

Edited September 24, 2020 by Robioto

[EazyEee]

53 minutes ago, Robioto said:

This still stands for me, I will at the very minimum wait for early access opinions, specifically on the match engine.

Still, I'm very much looking forward to see what the new game offers. I still have high hopes. 

Same, at least waiting to see the feature list and feedback on ME

[IMT]

I was 50/50 as been very happy with 19, then decided as 20 was available for free I'd just use that as my upgrade for this season, but with the announcement of it returning to Xbox for 21 then I'm definitely getting that version, especially as it will be cross platform capable with Windows. 

[ozidnz]

I will continue playing FM17 if they don't overhaul the ME. I don't follow football closely anymore so old squads isn't an issue for me. The non-ME stuff is actually pretty great but the main dish is spoiled.

[DementedHammer]

I've just pre-ordered. Even with my limited playing time, it works out around NZ$0.20 per hour of play time. In any case it ends up paying for itself the first time I stay home and play it rather than going for a night out at a restaurant and a round of drinks. 

Above and beyond that, I've really enjoyed the changes in FM20. Every year the game feels just that bit more polished to me. 

Edited September 25, 2020 by DementedHammer

[Madchester]

NO

[Malicious Penguin]

Pre-ordered.

 

At 8p ph of FM20 played, it's worth it.

[FrazT]

FYI- FM 21 release date has been announced:

https://community.sigames.com/topic/528165-football-manager-2021-out-november-24th/

[JR866Gunner]

On 23/09/2020 at 11:00, mp_87 said:

Reading the last page or so I think ideally SI need to go further in differentiating the versions of the game. They need to spell out (rather than the gentle steer that is on the whole given) that if you want "fun", classic-style, fast-sim, minimal input way of playing then buy FM Touch. Full fat FM should be all consuming, take much thought and consideration, need maximum tinkering, be headache inducing, require you to be all in, slower gameplay, and strives to be a version far more towards the realities of football management. And really, isn't for most players.

I'd probably say about 90% of FM'ers really should be playing the Touch version in this scenario. Highly highly unlikely they do go down this route, for many reasons, but I'd reckon a vast number of the complaints and dissent about FM would disappear straightaway if people played the version of the game more suitable to their outlook/play style/time constraints/knowledge.

I have tried FM Touch on PC and the only thing that bugged me was the lack of U23's squads and Youth Squads competing in their respective competetions. I understand it doesnt have as much depth as FM full fat but that was the only thing that spoilt it for me. I liked it other than that but I always felt like I was missing out on something from the full game and I wasnt getting my moneys worth opting for the Touch variant.

[toffee71]

Had to, can't wait to see how James Rodriguez reacts to me waddling into dressing room.

@bigmattb28 relying on you to start the is it here yet, when the time comes.

[DMaster2]

Yes if my parents as usual gift me a copy for xmas (they know i love this game), otherwise i'll stick to 2020.

[kevhamster]

5 hours ago, toffee71 said:

Had to, can't wait to see how James Rodriguez reacts to me waddling into dressing room.

@bigmattb28 relying on you to start the is it here yet, when the time comes.

I remember the beta speculation thread.  Some real misers on there.  At least we had GIFs!

[melogroovy]

I will definitely be buying.  I have fun playing so why not?

[Lawlore]

On 22/09/2020 at 23:32, LeeWHU888 said:

Not too sure if I'll buy it tbh, 

It's the best management simulator out there, however I think this also affects the progress. There's no competition from anyone else so SI know that they haven't got to do too much each year and they're still going to coin it in.

I think with the current affairs we have going on in the world, now is the perfect opportunity for SI not release a game this year (just release squad updates) and concentrate on polishing up the current format and maybe even release a book that explains the in's and outs of the game.

I understand that it's a simulation and I understand it's meant to be a challenge but the game is way too complex for most people to understand. Just because there's a few of you on here who do understand it doesn't mean evereryone else does. I've read countless "guides", I've watched countless videos, you go away and take on board what is said, you get successful then out of nowhere, the tactic stops working and it seems the game does everything it can to stop you winning (constant late goals, equalisers from 20-30 yards late on, giving silly penalties away, opposition GK saving everything)Now I know it doesn't do that however, 90% of people who have issues all say similar things which makes people question the game. 

There's no way a video game should be that complex that people "need" to do so much research to understand it. Take team mentality for an example, people start a game up, create a tactic and read the description of each one to decide what they want to use. So lets say they want to emulate Guardiola, they'll probably choose an attacking mentaility as, in the description, it sounds like a Guardiola tactic. They go though the process of building their tactic and they get to "Out of Possession", they see LOE and they push it up to much higher because that's what Pep does, they then see Defensive Line and push that up to much higher because again, that's what pep does. Now at no point in this process has it been explained that because they've selected the attacking mentality, their LOE and DL has automatically been pushed up, so they've now ramped both of them up to the highest possible setting. They play a few games, their tactic gets ripped apart, they come on here for help, show their tactic and then everyone has to explain how the game works. "Go and read so and so's guide" "go and watch so and so's videos" People don't want to do all that, they have probably 3 maybe 4 hours max per night if they're lucky to play the game, they shouldn't have to spend most of their time researching stuff.

For me, video games are a break away from normality, it's my own little world where I can just chill out for a few hours each night and have fun, however, I've increasingly found that over the years, the full version of this game requires so much time to actually get it right, Having to watch the matches to find out where your tactic is going wrong? Most people haven't got time for that and I fear that as the years go by, the youngsters of today won't get gripped by the game like a lot of us did back in the late 90's early 00's and that's when we'll start to see a sharp decline in sales. My 12 year son started playing it this year, he watched me during lockdown and wanted to try it himself. He played for around 3 maybe 4 days before saying "this game is crap, it's too hard" He said he's gonna get FM21 because it might be easier (I've told him it won't be). He'll play that for around 3 days, realise it's still hard and that will be it for him, he won't go back to it ever again because it's been too hard. I imagine that's the reality of most kids who have tried to play it.

This post hits one of the issues with more recent versions of FM right on the head. The game is complex, which is good. The game's complexity is poorly explained and represented in-game, which is bad. That final paragraph is heartbreaking- to my eyes, what's being described is not the game being "hard", but the game being inaccessible and obtuse.

[larsson-is-god]

On 22/09/2020 at 23:32, LeeWHU888 said:

Not too sure if I'll buy it tbh, 

It's the best management simulator out there, however I think this also affects the progress. There's no competition from anyone else so SI know that they haven't got to do too much each year and they're still going to coin it in.

I think with the current affairs we have going on in the world, now is the perfect opportunity for SI not release a game this year (just release squad updates) and concentrate on polishing up the current format and maybe even release a book that explains the in's and outs of the game.

I understand that it's a simulation and I understand it's meant to be a challenge but the game is way too complex for most people to understand. Just because there's a few of you on here who do understand it doesn't mean evereryone else does. I've read countless "guides", I've watched countless videos, you go away and take on board what is said, you get successful then out of nowhere, the tactic stops working and it seems the game does everything it can to stop you winning (constant late goals, equalisers from 20-30 yards late on, giving silly penalties away, opposition GK saving everything)Now I know it doesn't do that however, 90% of people who have issues all say similar things which makes people question the game. 

There's no way a video game should be that complex that people "need" to do so much research to understand it. Take team mentality for an example, people start a game up, create a tactic and read the description of each one to decide what they want to use. So lets say they want to emulate Guardiola, they'll probably choose an attacking mentaility as, in the description, it sounds like a Guardiola tactic. They go though the process of building their tactic and they get to "Out of Possession", they see LOE and they push it up to much higher because that's what Pep does, they then see Defensive Line and push that up to much higher because again, that's what pep does. Now at no point in this process has it been explained that because they've selected the attacking mentality, their LOE and DL has automatically been pushed up, so they've now ramped both of them up to the highest possible setting. They play a few games, their tactic gets ripped apart, they come on here for help, show their tactic and then everyone has to explain how the game works. "Go and read so and so's guide" "go and watch so and so's videos" People don't want to do all that, they have probably 3 maybe 4 hours max per night if they're lucky to play the game, they shouldn't have to spend most of their time researching stuff.

For me, video games are a break away from normality, it's my own little world where I can just chill out for a few hours each night and have fun, however, I've increasingly found that over the years, the full version of this game requires so much time to actually get it right, Having to watch the matches to find out where your tactic is going wrong? Most people haven't got time for that and I fear that as the years go by, the youngsters of today won't get gripped by the game like a lot of us did back in the late 90's early 00's and that's when we'll start to see a sharp decline in sales. My 12 year son started playing it this year, he watched me during lockdown and wanted to try it himself. He played for around 3 maybe 4 days before saying "this game is crap, it's too hard" He said he's gonna get FM21 because it might be easier (I've told him it won't be). He'll play that for around 3 days, realise it's still hard and that will be it for him, he won't go back to it ever again because it's been too hard. I imagine that's the reality of most kids who have tried to play it.

Wonder if you or your boy have tried FM Touch? I had a period just after kids were born where I couldn’t get in to the full fat version so tried Touch.  At that time in my life it worked as a quick and simpler version but there were times whereby I would want to change something or find something out only to realise I couldn’t due to it not being available so I went back to full fat.

[janrzm]

On 21/09/2020 at 21:06, coppicat said:

During Covid I bought FM for the first time in 15 years and as a previous addict I was really looking forward to spend time on my guilty pleasure. I am playing Nottingham Forrest and won in the playoffs to get promoted first year. Second year I finished 7th in the Premiership and miraculously won the Carabao Cup . Now in my third season I am maybe going to get a spot in the Europa League. How did I do it? I have no clue as the results seem to come at random. What is even more serious.... I actually didnt have fun. I am so frustrated playing this game that I actually have to remind myself that its all going quite well.  

I play standard tactics and dont check to much online what works and what doesnt. With the results I have had, you would imagine you would have a sense of achievement.... but instead it just seems like hard work all the time and you never have a sense of what works and what doesnt. It actually does seem like the ME is a step ahead of you at all times and you have never been handed the tools to figure out what is actually happening in a game. It also seems like all games you play are balancing on a knifes edge and the slightest little mistake in the eye of the ME will cost you dearly. I mean its plain and simple mind boggling what you encounter over a season. 

For the last couple of months I have spent a ridiculous amount of time on this game cause I was too stubborn to give up. I just couldn't believe that there was not a certain something I had totally missed which made this game so extremely frustrating..... and that's when I finally went online to find out that there were so many others that had that same feeling.

There are many aspects of the game that are nice but nothing works if the core of a game is thoroughly flawed and it this case the ME brings everything down. As in any field of the entertainment industry a computer game has to be judged on one thing only in the very end. That one thing is if its fun ... if you are having a good time. Too this question I can honestly say that this game has not in any way been fun, far from it actually. It has in fact has been extremely frustrating.

Did it get too complicated? Did the programmers want it too realistic? Did nobody focus on "gaming experience". In my opinion the one thing that is certain is that they completely lost the plot on this one. I will certainly not buy FM again... its just not fun. Probably a blessing in disguise that I chose to return to FM in this version as I would be spending way too much time on what was once a great game. Hopefully SI will be able to rectify this, but I wouldnt be at all surprised if they will feel the repercussions of this blunder on the bottom line next year.   

Excellent post. I can relate to so much of it.

I feel like almost all aspects of the games periphery have been improved over the last few years, which has added exponentially to the immersion (albeit with increased complexity) However, the nucleus of the game which is the ME seems mired and worse still stalled IMO. The end result for me was FM20 being the least enjoyable ME ever paired with the best "rest of the game" ever.......

The notion of "enjoying" the game is an interesting one. On one hand its a video game, it's entertainment and as such must be enjoyable. On the other, its simulating as best it can, a massively stressful occupation, one that regularly chews up and spits out the toughest and best of managers and coaches. I guess I'm saying I could live with it being frustrating, joyless even if it was for the right reasons.......  I actually quit playing the game this year around 750hrs, very low for me. But, Covid bought me back to the game and whilst I was grateful for the distraction after an additional 2000hrs....... I hadn't played one enjoyable save this version for many of the reasons you mention.

 

 

Edited September 25, 2020 by janrzm

[LeeWHU888]

2 hours ago, larsson-is-god said:

Wonder if you or your boy have tried FM Touch? I had a period just after kids were born where I couldn’t get in to the full fat version so tried Touch.  At that time in my life it worked as a quick and simpler version but there were times whereby I would want to change something or find something out only to realise I couldn’t due to it not being available so I went back to full fat.

I have mate and like you, found that it just isn't the same so always end up back with the full version. 

I will introduce my son to the touch version though, I never even thought of that before!

[BayernMB]

Just bought it....

[aj6658]

On 12/09/2020 at 10:07, herne79 said:

And yet SI have completely blown away all it's previous competition - and that in spite of it's apparently unmodern ME.

This whole lack of competition thing making SI "comfortable and playing it safe" is a misnomer.  Not only have SI seen off the competition, it's pretty disingenuous to the very hard working people at SI and it also ignores the issue of companies who fail to evolve their product (with or without competition) fail and die.  Yet FM sales remain stronger than ever.

A lack of competition does not hurt product development.  Resting on your laurels hurts product development, which is not something that SI does.

If you don't like the ME that's fair enough - pretty much all of us don't like some aspect or another - but that has nothing to do with lack of competition or SI being in a non-existent comfort zone.

If that was the case then issues that have plagued the ME for years would been fixed. Floaty crosses when I don’t have a tall striker and set crosses to low, strikers dropping deep on the counter, players not following instructions, my bids getting rejected but a much lower transfer fee winning. These are just a few and these issues have been persistent for years. You only need to read through this forum to see it.The issue is FM is in a niche market. 2 million sales is small in the gaming industry but is a headline figure for FM.

Name one other viable competitor? There isn’t . So if you have a craving to manage a football team there is literally no other game so I either cough up or don’t play the game.

A lack of competition has harmed development. Resting on your laurels does harm development and you rest on your laurels when you don’t have competition . The ME is complex and is needing a full overhaul which is incredibly expensive but if you have no competition people still buy you game as it’s their only option so each year they tack on new modules, tweak bits but never solve the problems at the core. last year was a joke to be charged full price. New “features” were rehash’s of old systems that were repackaged 

[Footix]

On 23/09/2020 at 00:32, LeeWHU888 said:

Now at no point in this process has it been explained that because they've selected the attacking mentality, their LOE and DL has automatically been pushed up, so they've now ramped both of them up to the highest possible setting. They play a few games, their tactic gets ripped apart, they come on here for help, show their tactic and then everyone has to explain how the game works. "Go and read so and so's guide" "go and watch so and so's videos" People don't want to do all that, they have probably 3 maybe 4 hours max per night if they're lucky to play the game, they shouldn't have to spend most of their time researching stuff.

This. So much this! 

I realised FM Touch is supposed to be more straight forward so I bought that one, but the tactic stuff and match engine is exactly the same (bar the tactic familiarity). So it's no use. It's trial and error and watching matches in full, and eventually giving up because I don't have time to learn this by myself. 

SI introduced tactic templates, but I've seen people on here claiming the pre set team instructions and player roles in the templates make little sense, so what's the point then. 

While I understand FM is a simulation it is also a game, and I can't help but thinking the franchise is moving (too far) away from the "game" perspective. 

Edited September 26, 2020 by Footix