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Hi!

Need some help with 4123 formation, I'd like to play possession with intent based football, and have been through all the threads on this kind of tactic so created the below based on what i've read. It's worked ok, getting promoted and my first season in Bundlesliga had me finish 9th but i was extremely lucky, with lowest number of chances created in the league and too many 1-0 wins. This season i'm doing worse, 3 wins in 13. Below is my tactic, any pointers? I'm 8th in the league in possession % but not winning games, having shots, or anything close to inspiring football.          

Uploaded my players too in case the personnel just aren't up to what i'm trying to do. 

Thanks in advance!

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7 hours ago, Dr funk said:

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7 hours ago, Dr funk said:

any pointers?

- No width on the flanks, especially the right one (although the left is not much better either)

- Excessive attacking focus on middle areas of the pitch (including the final third), making it relatively easy for opposition to defend because you yourself are denying the space to your own players

- Slowing play down too much by the combination of both short passing and low tempo used together under the balanced team mentality and thus giving the opposition more than enough time to consolidate defensively before you can do anything meaningful in attack

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Also:

  • Lack of presence in the box (except for your CM no-one's really going forward)
  • IWB, IF and Overlap right, apart from unbalanced and a huge width problem as stated above, sounds contradicting

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8 hours ago, Dr funk said:

Hi!

Need some help with 4123 formation, I'd like to play possession with intent based football, and have been through all the threads on this kind of tactic so created the below based on what i've read. It's worked ok, getting promoted and my first season in Bundlesliga had me finish 9th but i was extremely lucky, with lowest number of chances created in the league and too many 1-0 wins. This season i'm doing worse, 3 wins in 13. Below is my tactic, any pointers? I'm 8th in the league in possession % but not winning games, having shots, or anything close to inspiring football.          

Uploaded my players too in case the personnel just aren't up to what i'm trying to do. 

Thanks in advance!

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I'd try the following changes:

  • Remove Overlap Left and Right
  • Remove Narrow
  • Swap LB and RB roles, LB becomes IWBsu and RB becomes FBsu

Hope this helps. :)

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10 hours ago, Dr funk said:

Hi!

Need some help with 4123 formation, I'd like to play possession with intent based football, and have been through all the threads on this kind of tactic so created the below based on what i've read. It's worked ok, getting promoted and my first season in Bundlesliga had me finish 9th but i was extremely lucky, with lowest number of chances created in the league and too many 1-0 wins. This season i'm doing worse, 3 wins in 13. Below is my tactic, any pointers? I'm 8th in the league in possession % but not winning games, having shots, or anything close to inspiring football.          

Uploaded my players too in case the personnel just aren't up to what i'm trying to do. 

Thanks in advance!

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my advice:

IN POSSESSION

-remove overlap left and overlap right as they are contradicting with ur player roles

-remove narrow attacking shape

-maybe adjust the tempo settings bcz i suspect on balanced mentality lower tempo might be too cautious

TRANSITION

-may i know what is the reasoning behind distribute the full backs?

-also try play out of defence if u want a more possession oriented style

OUT OF POSSESSION

-increase the pressing intensity if ur high line is getting too exposed if not just keep it on standard

PLAYER ROLES

-the full back on support and inverted wing back should be swap around bcz the inverted wing back will have no space at the right due to the deep lying playmaker. the full back on support if moved to the right will help provide cover to the inside forward on attack. if u want the full back on support to be more aggressive on providing attacking width u can give him player instructions like get further forward or stay wider.

-gauthier playing as an inside forward on attack at the right could be an issue as he is very weak on his left foot and his finishing skills is not that great either. maybe a new player needed there?

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9 hours ago, Experienced Defender said:

 

- No width on the flanks, especially the right one (although the left is not much better either)

- Excessive attacking focus on middle areas of the pitch (including the final third), making it relatively easy for opposition to defend because you yourself are denying the space to your own players

- Slowing play down too much by the combination of both short passing and low tempo used together under the balanced team mentality and thus giving the opposition more than enough time to consolidate defensively before you can do anything meaningful in attack

Thanks all for the feedback - if i change to the below does this help (i'd remove both overlap instructions if i go with this)?

Option 1:

                     DLF (S)

IF (S)                           W (A)

            CM (A)   DLP (S)

                      DM (D)

       WB (S) CD CD FB (S)

Or, if i want to keep a IWB, would the below be an option:

Option 2:

                   DLF (S)

IF (S)                            W (A)

         DLP (S)      CM (A)

                     DM (D)

WB (A)  CD    CD    IWB (S)

My reason for this is the IWB occupies the space the CM leaves when he pushes forward, and the Winger still gives width and space for the CM to move into? Swapping the sides of the DLP and CM also allows me to push the WB (or maybe a FB (A)) on the left side further forward?

Keep the overlap on the left for width for option 2? Also, i can change mentality to positive and increase tempo a notch.

 

8 hours ago, Starsurfer said:

I'd try the following changes:

  • Remove Overlap Left and Right
  • Remove Narrow
  • Swap LB and RB roles, LB becomes IWBsu and RB becomes FBsu

Hope this helps. :)

As above, i'll remove overlap right, but keep the left for width, as my reasoning was the overlap with give an option out wide if the IF dribbles infield? I see you have suggested swapping LB and RB roles, i've tried this as option 2 above but made a couple of other tweaks 

 

 

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6 hours ago, zyfon5 said:

my advice:

IN POSSESSION

-remove overlap left and overlap right as they are contradicting with ur player roles

-remove narrow attacking shape

-maybe adjust the tempo settings bcz i suspect on balanced mentality lower tempo might be too cautious

TRANSITION

-may i know what is the reasoning behind distribute the full backs?

-also try play out of defence if u want a more possession oriented style

OUT OF POSSESSION

-increase the pressing intensity if ur high line is getting too exposed if not just keep it on standard

PLAYER ROLES

-the full back on support and inverted wing back should be swap around bcz the inverted wing back will have no space at the right due to the deep lying playmaker. the full back on support if moved to the right will help provide cover to the inside forward on attack. if u want the full back on support to be more aggressive on providing attacking width u can give him player instructions like get further forward or stay wider.

-gauthier playing as an inside forward on attack at the right could be an issue as he is very weak on his left foot and his finishing skills is not that great either. maybe a new player needed there?

This is really helpful, as above i have made some changes which hopefully helps with the in possession tips you have given.

Transition: i set "distribute to full backs" as i want to keep passing short rather than lump it downfield but didnt feel my CBs are good enough to cope with heavy pressing if they're on the ball (Robinsons passing isnt great). I used to keep "play out of defence" on but found myself switching it off 4 out of 5 games as my possession numbers were high but with no real intent, or i was being closed down too much and got nervous!

Out of possession: will look at increasing pressing intensity and see how i get on

Player roles: I've tweaked the LB and RBs above, hopefully makes more sense? Could ask the LB to stay wider in both options as i'm concerned about the width on this side.

Think you're right on Gauthier, i'll either change to a Winger or find someone else, and train him as a AML so i can use him on the other side. He was supposed to replace my star winger than i sold for a record fee, but just hasnt worked out :(

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1 minute ago, Dr funk said:

This is really helpful, as above i have made some changes which hopefully helps with the in possession tips you have given.

Transition: i set "distribute to full backs" as i want to keep passing short rather than lump it downfield but didnt feel my CBs are good enough to cope with heavy pressing if they're on the ball (Robinsons passing isnt great). I used to keep "play out of defence" on but found myself switching it off 4 out of 5 games as my possession numbers were high but with no real intent, or i was being closed down too much and got nervous!

Out of possession: will look at increasing pressing intensity and see how i get on

Player roles: I've tweaked the LB and RBs above, hopefully makes more sense? Could ask the LB to stay wider in both options as i'm concerned about the width on this side.

Think you're right on Gauthier, i'll either change to a Winger or find someone else, and train him as a AML so i can use him on the other side. He was supposed to replace my star winger than i sold for a record fee, but just hasnt worked out :(

The reason why I asked to distribute full backs is bcz with ur current set up the full backs are a bit lopsided and hence could be a potential issue if your attacks are too concentrated on one side. If u don't see any problems with it then it's fine. If u dun have any centre backs that are good on the ball then leave out play out of defense is better. It is an option to be considered but not compulsory.

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9 minutes ago, Dr funk said:

Thanks all for the feedback - if i change to the below does this help (i'd remove both overlap instructions if i go with this)?

Option 2:

                   DLF (S)

IF (S)                            W (A)

         DLP (S)      CM (A)

                     DM (D)

WB (A)  CD    CD    IWB (S)

As above, i'll remove overlap right, but keep the left for width, as my reasoning was the overlap with give an option out wide if the IF dribbles infield? I see you have suggested swapping LB and RB roles, i've tried this as option 2 above but made a couple of other tweaks 

The WBat role already overlaps naturally, IMHO it is unnecessary to add overlap left.

With regards to your option 2, I'd make the following changes for it to be more balanced:

  • Change DLFsu to DLFat
  • Change Wat to Wsu

Hope this helps. :)

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2 hours ago, Starsurfer said:

The WBat role already overlaps naturally, IMHO it is unnecessary to add overlap left.

With regards to your option 2, I'd make the following changes for it to be more balanced:

  • Change DLFsu to DLFat
  • Change Wat to Wsu

Hope this helps. :)

Ok thank you, will give this a go!

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First game after making the changes above. Good news is we absolutely battered Hannover. Annoying their 1 shot resulted in a goal though. The y are bottom of the league so not getting carried away but much better play all round, some really good combinations

 

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3 hours ago, Dr funk said:

Option 1:

                     DLF (S)

IF (S)                           W (A)

            CM (A)   DLP (S)

                      DM (D)

       WB (S) CD CD FB (S)

Or, if i want to keep a IWB, would the below be an option:

Option 2:

                   DLF (S)

IF (S)                            W (A)

         DLP (S)      CM (A)

                     DM (D)

WB (A)  CD    CD    IWB (S)

The option 2 definitely makes more sense (although I would rather have the winger on support and striker on attack). 

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And yes - be careful with IWB, because the role is pretty demanding and cannot be played by any type of fullback, so make sure you have the right player. I did not have time to analyze your players, only the tactic.

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20 minutes ago, Experienced Defender said:

And yes - be careful with IWB, because the role is pretty demanding and cannot be played by any type of fullback, so make sure you have the right player. I did not have time to analyze your players, only the tactic.

I've gone with the striker on attack duty as suggested by you and @Starsurfer seems to work so far.

With the IWB - if this doesnt pay off, would a FB (s) be the best alternative?

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5 minutes ago, Dr funk said:

With the IWB - if this doesnt pay off, would a FB (s) be the best alternative?

Yes (speaking specifically about your Option 2 setup). 

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