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Djuicer

Will my team be able to pass their way to world domination?

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2 minutes ago, yonko said:

Yes much shorter passing gives me the play I want. If you look at the individual player instructions, the passing for the front 5 players is not at the lowest settings. You can lower it even more though if you wish.

What do you mean by "the beginning set up"? Generally I tend to have the Trequartista as my Attack duty player. But I can use AP-A or CM-A in midfield on occasion. 

i mean the way you start a match. The basic template of your tactic. Having the most support duties as you can. I just got a madness with that, if that's not something bothering you just don't mind me xD

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15 minutes ago, yonko said:

For me the best combination for controlling possession is HB-D with DLP-S and AP-S. The MEZ stays wider and that sometimes allows opponents to cut off passes towards him. The AP gravitates towards the ball and together with the DLP they form nice passing combos to transition the ball or circulate possession. It forces the AI to get really aggressive with the tackling and pressure, which in turn results in red card eventually for someone. :D

 

With Much Shorter Passing the tempo is described as Slightly Lower on Positive Mentality but the notch is in the middle of the line, therefore normal for the mentality. This is what I meant. 

Thanks for the response Yonko. Yeah I can see how that combination would result in a team being able to control possession. What is your go-to midfield combinations? 

Yep, I thought that would be what you meant with the "normal tempo" comment. 

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11 minutes ago, DimitrisLar said:

i mean the way you start a match. The basic template of your tactic. Having the most support duties as you can. I just got a madness with that, if that's not something bothering you just don't mind me xD

The way I start a match depends on how I want to dominate and beat the opponent. I look at their formation and using the scout report I have an idea about their roles etc. Then I determine which roles to use in midfield. Only the roles in my midfield change though. I always use SK-S, 2 CWBs, 2 BPDs and 2 IFs. Very rarely I may change the Treq to a False 9 (vs formations that don't have DM or 2 DMs)

Basically you have to make a judgement where the space is for your players to take advantage of. Generally the idea is to have more support roles and individual mentalities that are as close together as possible so the system is fluid. 

5 minutes ago, retrodude09 said:

Thanks for the response Yonko. Yeah I can see how that combination would result in a team being able to control possession. What is your go-to midfield combinations? 

Yep, I thought that would be what you meant with the "normal tempo" comment. 

I don't have a go-to midfield combo. I'm facing different formations so I adjust the midfield roles based on that.

I have 3 tactics loaded with slight variations so my players are familiar as much as possible. 

Tactic 1 has DM-D, AP-S and MEZ-S

Tactic 2 has HB-D, AP-S and CM-A (this is the most aggressive one)

Tactic 3 has HB-D, DLP-S and AP-A

But I also use slight variation of each like:

HB-D, DLP-S, MEZ-S

DM-D, DLP-S, CM-S

DM-D, DLP-S, AP-S ( this is the most conservative one)

It all depends what you are looking for your players to do and how you want them to contribute to the overall play. Of course it also depends on player attributes and PPMs. 

What do you want your team to play and what do you want from your midfield?

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1 hour ago, yonko said:

Generally the idea is to have more support roles and individual mentalities that are as close together as possible so the system is fluid. 

i'm not experienced in combining mentalities and duties and that topic opened more of this, that's why i'm asking. Your 3 very attacking mentalities up front (maybe one attacking too from the middle three) combined with probably 4 balanced and 4-5 positives conclude to a fluid approach? here the OP uses 4 balanced, 5 positives and 1 very attacking. Of course everyone wants to see other things happening but its really helpful learning that stuff :) 

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29 minutes ago, DimitrisLar said:

i'm not experienced in combining mentalities and duties and that topic opened more of this, that's why i'm asking. Your 3 very attacking mentalities up front (maybe one attacking too from the middle three) combined with probably 4 balanced and 4-5 positives conclude to a fluid approach? here the OP uses 4 balanced, 5 positives and 1 very attacking. Of course everyone wants to see other things happening but its really helpful learning that stuff :) 

I've gone for more attacking threat using IFs instead of IWs. While their mentality is very attacking, their support duty helps with the fluidity as opposed to Attacking duty. 

If I add Overlap instructions then my CWBs and IFs are all on Attacking individual mentality. Which is another way to structure the individual mentalities.

You just have to learn how the instructions affect the players individually. 

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1 minute ago, yonko said:

I've gone for more attacking threat using IFs instead of IWs. While their mentality is very attacking, their support duty helps with the fluidity as opposed to Attacking duty. 

If I add Overlap instructions then my CWBs and IFs are all on Attacking individual mentality. Which is another way to structure the individual mentalities.

You just have to learn how the instructions affect the players individually. 

that's the way i use my left flank to get two attacking mentalities there and probably create an overload like pedro-alves and expose the right wing. not happened yet, i have to fix the middle then xD i really want to replicate the fourth goal of that game 

so duties are more (or a little more) importand than mentalities for fluid playing style. thanks a lot.

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Posted (edited)
13 hours ago, Braincomplexa said:

Lovely write up detailing your reasoning behind each decision. 

It's giving me that itch to play the game again as I have fallen out of love with it recently trying to futilely solve the problem of AI teams that play peak tiki taka in their own half racking up at least hundreds of more passes than my team, sometimes 200 or a couple times 300. 

Although I have tried so many things already, your inspiring post has given me new ideas to try, so I'm eagerly waiting for your next post and numbers. 

Have you tried something out yet? feel free to post your tactic here :) Hopefully the numbers post will show some interesting results.

12 hours ago, DimitrisLar said:

an other question, just to keep it rolling, since you use extremely high LOE but you dont have close down more on your IWs, does extremely urgent pressing compensate for that? Cause the pressing attitude on the description sais that its activated as soon as the enemy goes beyond your LOE.

If you pick the mentality and TIs before the PIs you can not increase it with maxed out pressing. So it is already as high as it can be.

12 hours ago, coach vahid said:

The PI " focus play through the middle" increase the mentality for your DM and your CB. Did you notice that or its an error and its doesn’t makes difference for you ?

The players get cautious whitout it. Like SK CAU, BPD CAU, BPD CAU and DM CAU. Focus play makes them balanced in this setup.

8 hours ago, yonko said:

I've gone for more attacking threat using IFs instead of IWs. While their mentality is very attacking, their support duty helps with the fluidity as opposed to Attacking duty. 

If I add Overlap instructions then my CWBs and IFs are all on Attacking individual mentality. Which is another way to structure the individual mentalities.

You just have to learn how the instructions affect the players individually. 

This is a great tool. I considered using it to be able to use the IF role but I valued lower mentality for the CWBs more.

8 hours ago, DimitrisLar said:

that's the way i use my left flank to get two attacking mentalities there and probably create an overload like pedro-alves and expose the right wing. not happened yet, i have to fix the middle then xD i really want to replicate the fourth goal of that game 

so duties are more (or a little more) importand than mentalities for fluid playing style. thanks a lot.

I think its more important with which actual role a player has to create overloads. If you want for example the right wing to finish off an overload I would use like MEZs and Wa (or switched duties) on that side. On the other side I would use maybe a APs (CM) and IWs and make sure one has the likes to swtich the ball to the other side trait. 

Edited by Djuicer

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Il y a 1 heure, Djuicer a dit :

The players get cautious whitout it. Like SK CAU, BPD CAU, BPD CAU and DM CAU. Focus play makes them balanced in this setup.

Maybe it's because im still on FM19, but i confirm with the " Focus play through the middle" active, the DM and CB's mentality is positive. Without its balanced. But thank you. 👍  

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16 minutes ago, coach vahid said:

Maybe it's because im still on FM19, but i confirm with the " Focus play through the middle" active, the DM and CB's mentality is positive. Without its balanced. But thank you. 👍  

Maybe you are on attacking, for the team? Im just on positive. Otherwise I suppose its a diffrence between 19 and 20 :)

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Posted (edited)

@Justified

I tried the setup with SKsu and one regulard CD. Won the game (the 39th in a row) and it seemed to work out (faced Bournemouth and the ZZZzzz boring 3-3-2-2 (cd cd cd, wb dm wb, cm cm, st st). Will keep it like that for now. If Ederson gets any assists or hockey assists I will try to remember to show them!

 

This leaves the team with this structure.

VA

POS-POS

POS-POS

BAL

POS-BAL-BAL-POS

AT

 

The regular CD keeps the mentality but is much more conservative. An other option would be to remove focus play through the middle but than I would have to change the duty for the DM. Can't have him more risk aversive than this.

Edited by Djuicer

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5 hours ago, Djuicer said:

I think its more important with which actual role a player has to create overloads. If you want for example the right wing to finish off an overload I would use like MEZs and Wa (or switched duties) on that side. On the other side I would use maybe a APs (CM) and IWs and make sure one has the likes to swtich the ball to the other side trait. 

yes that the logic thing i guess but i see iniesta on pedro's side and keita who subbed xavi to villa's here http://prntscr.com/sa5w1k

maybe a little more obsessed than i should be? :(

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16 minutes ago, DimitrisLar said:

yes that the logic thing i guess but i see iniesta on pedro's side and keita who subbed xavi to villa's here http://prntscr.com/sa5w1k

maybe a little more obsessed than i should be? :(

Are you sure about the players? I think they are in closest to furthest Villa, Messi, Iniesta, Pique and Keita (or Abidal). 

IMO that team played mostly down the right, creating overloads there to set Villa and Iniesta free on the left with loads of space. As their like standard build up.

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OK, this might be taking it a little away from what you intended, But I was using a pretty similar set-up with Man Utd (dont judge me :p) trying to emulate Pirlo, GAttuso et al. I used a Regista for Pirlo, then because of his support duty I really struggled to get my midfield balanced well enough. Against inferior teams I had Mezz(a) carr and the Reg and it worked, although the carr and reg had a tendency to occupy the same areas at times. But against equal teams away or the big teams I was left wide open. I tried a CM(d) and a bwm(d) but they seemed to get in the registas way. Has anyone managed to get, or have any idea how to balance a mid with a Reg in it?

Also on one of he forums, someone said they see Pirlo as a dlps in cm slot, which got me thinking, but he is a typical Reg.......isnt he?

I also have an unhealthy obsession with getting a poacher to work as well. But highly doubt it would work in his system, would it?

  

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19 hours ago, yonko said:

The way I start a match depends on how I want to dominate and beat the opponent. I look at their formation and using the scout report I have an idea about their roles etc. Then I determine which roles to use in midfield. Only the roles in my midfield change though. I always use SK-S, 2 CWBs, 2 BPDs and 2 IFs. Very rarely I may change the Treq to a False 9 (vs formations that don't have DM or 2 DMs)

Basically you have to make a judgement where the space is for your players to take advantage of. Generally the idea is to have more support roles and individual mentalities that are as close together as possible so the system is fluid. 

I don't have a go-to midfield combo. I'm facing different formations so I adjust the midfield roles based on that.

I have 3 tactics loaded with slight variations so my players are familiar as much as possible. 

Tactic 1 has DM-D, AP-S and MEZ-S

Tactic 2 has HB-D, AP-S and CM-A (this is the most aggressive one)

Tactic 3 has HB-D, DLP-S and AP-A

But I also use slight variation of each like:

HB-D, DLP-S, MEZ-S

DM-D, DLP-S, CM-S

DM-D, DLP-S, AP-S ( this is the most conservative one)

It all depends what you are looking for your players to do and how you want them to contribute to the overall play. Of course it also depends on player attributes and PPMs. 

What do you want your team to play and what do you want from your midfield?

This is a really interesting post Yonko, if you don't mind could you give me a couple of examples of when you'd use a couple of them? One thing that always eludes meis how subtle changes in roles, eg HB to DM effect the game and the player. From my limited knowledge, I assuming that when you say most conservative, your giving up attacking intent for more possession? and vice versa with the CM-A?

 

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31 minutes ago, daveb653 said:

OK, this might be taking it a little away from what you intended, But I was using a pretty similar set-up with Man Utd (dont judge me :p) trying to emulate Pirlo, GAttuso et al. I used a Regista for Pirlo, then because of his support duty I really struggled to get my midfield balanced well enough. Against inferior teams I had Mezz(a) carr and the Reg and it worked, although the carr and reg had a tendency to occupy the same areas at times. But against equal teams away or the big teams I was left wide open. I tried a CM(d) and a bwm(d) but they seemed to get in the registas way. Has anyone managed to get, or have any idea how to balance a mid with a Reg in it?

Also on one of he forums, someone said they see Pirlo as a dlps in cm slot, which got me thinking, but he is a typical Reg.......isnt he?

I also have an unhealthy obsession with getting a poacher to work as well. But highly doubt it would work in his system, would it?

  

Thats fine, everything including Pirlo is always welcome here. I would have loved if United hired me (as a fan of the club) but they went with the "nobody" Max Allegri and turned me down. If i go back to Pirlo he started out as an attacking midfielder, call it trequartista if you like. IMO he was in the central midfield for most of his Milan days (DLP most likely). It was as he grow older and hes legs had left him he started to play deepest (as a regista in Juventus). So started out closest to the op. goal, then dropped and dropped again as he grew older.

I think the regista can work in 4-1-2-3 but its hard to pull it off. Has to be correct PPMs and roles+duties for the rest of the midfield trio too, I would start playing around with Regista, CMs and CMa.

The most suited for the regista IMHO is a 4-2-3-1 with DMs. Putting a ballwinner or a pure holder besides him.

 

 

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26 minutes ago, Djuicer said:

Thats fine, everything including Pirlo is always welcome here. I would have loved if United hired me (as a fan of the club) but they went with the "nobody" Max Allegri and turned me down. If i go back to Pirlo he started out as an attacking midfielder, call it trequartista if you like. IMO he was in the central midfield for most of his Milan days (DLP most likely). It was as he grow older and hes legs had left him he started to play deepest (as a regista in Juventus). So started out closest to the op. goal, then dropped and dropped again as he grew older.

I think the regista can work in 4-1-2-3 but its hard to pull it off. Has to be correct PPMs and roles+duties for the rest of the midfield trio too, I would start playing around with Regista, CMs and CMa.

The most suited for the regista IMHO is a 4-2-3-1 with DMs. Putting a ballwinner or a pure holder besides him.

 

 

Yeah i initially thought that, but read that a 4-2-3-1 is notoriously hard to balance, plus then its not Milan from back in the 03 ish season. but i guess you could make it play like a 4-3-3, fairly easy, I presumed regista would be best for him as it seems to have alot more freedom to move around the pitch and less defensive responsibility than a dlp. Why defend when you Gattuso next to you. :) 

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Posted (edited)
18 hours ago, yonko said:

I've gone for more attacking threat using IFs instead of IWs. While their mentality is very attacking, their support duty helps with the fluidity as opposed to Attacking duty. 

Do you find that using two Inside Forwards makes your attack quite rigid?

I find that Inside Forwards play too high for my team to keep the ball efficiently, so I use an IW (S) on one side to encourage the him to drop deep, link with the midfield and help create an overload with the MCs. I guess it's a Possession v Penetration weigh-up with no right or wrong answer.

Edited by Luizinho

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Posted (edited)

Hello numbers, this will be the fifth part of this project. First I would like to say that I find this harder to show, or explain what I think of it and I also feel that it's much harder to discuss numbers than roles. Well maybe that's just me. Still I will give this a try here so let's get going.

I will start out with maybe the single most talked about topic of them all when it comes to football, possession. At this SS we had an average possession of just 50 % which is quite low, but when you look at the teams above us (except Liverpool) they are all expected mid-table contenders. I also think this is also affected by me replacing Diego Simenone this summer, he is not well renowned for his possession football. With more training this stat will probably jump a few percentage units upwards, getting closer to around 55 % (in game right now we sit at 53 % so I guess its already a bit higher). 

I just recently faced the team topping this chart, Bournemouth and they entered the field with 3 center backs, two wing backs and a defensive midfielder. To fill the team out they had two central midfielders and two strikers. It looked like this.

ST-ST
CM-CM
WB-DM-WB
CD-CD-CD
GK

They ended up with 57 % possession versus mine 43 %. My team shot 13 shots, they fired just 3. The game ended in my favour even if they took an early lead in the third minute.

Yes ofcourse, the screen.
jywtXqO.jpg


One other explanation for this would be the way FM counts possession. Which is more basic than IRL. The way FM counts is just a simple clock which adds time to whichever team holds possession, breaks etc counts for the team that last had possession. This probably explains at least partly why we don't have higher numbers.

 @Cleon explains it here.

Spoiler

One thing I would like to clear up before we start the article though is how possession works. People always throw real life percentages around when talking about Football Manager but don’t realise that how Football Manager and most analysis sites workout possession is very different. So if we start by looking at someone like Opta then we can see how they measure possession.
 
When you are watching a football match every once in a while you’ll see flashed up on the screen a statistic showing how much “ball possession” each team has had. Opta explains how this statistic is computed:


There are several data providers out there in the UK and across the world monitoring games, from TV companies themselves for live games, to specialists like Opta. Each has their own method of working out possession. Some use calculations based on the data, but most use a “chess clock” approach where each team has a button which is hit when they are in possession. Some do this in the broadcast truck, others have analysts who call it out and inputters who hit the buttons.
Opta used this method originally, but the problem we found with a chess clock approach for time is that you are reliant on the person logging the data remembering to hit the button and the person doing it usually has other tasks to perform and other data to log.
Missing a couple of switches obviously skews the possession figures and it’s impossible to go back and change it. It may not sound much but one minute where the clock is wrong can affect the possession figures by two to three percentage points.
Opta now record possession in a football match by means of an automated calculation based on the number of passes that a team has in a game. We have two analysts, each monitoring one of the teams and they log each event in a game, totalling between 1600 and 2000 events per match.
Each of these events has a time code plus an xy coordinate and the collection system is rigorously monitored by our team of checkers.
During the game, the passes for each team are totalled up and then each team’s total is divided by the game total to produce a percentage figure which shows the percentage of the game that each team has accrued in possession of the ball.
For Opta “ball possession” means percentage of completed passes, and is not a measure of time, though Opta does claim that the two are very closely related.
 
 
That is how Opta work their possession out which seems reasonable enough. However Football Manager handles it different to how Opta now works.
Football Manager still uses the old method of the ‘chess clock’ to record possession. But what does that mean? Well it means that the difference in methodologies between them and Opta cannot be accounted for. One of the main differences between the two methods but be an example like this;
Team A is under real pressure and the ball is put out of play by Team B. Team A could take a minute or longer to put the ball back into play and all of this would account for possession in Team A’s favor. Because it’s the amount of time that is calculated. Were as for Opta all of this would amount to nothing and is meaningless. But in Football Manager it’s counted as possession. It’s worth remembering that when trying to figure out possession on Football Manager based on real life percentage figures. If you realise this then it’ll save you lots of time that would normally be spent banging your head against the wall.


 

Taking this into account, I think completed passes is a better more true tool for whichever team has the ball most, or at least tries to do something with it. Here we sit in fifth at the time of this SS but have advanced up to second place around christmas. This is sufficient for me.
5rcTZEd.jpg

 

In percentage numbers we complete the second most passes at an impressive 89 %. I'm satisfied with this.
hiikLLX.jpg

 

Now we will take a look at the goals produced. This chart we are topping with 25. Im happy with this. Over 2 goals on average (~2.3 GPG)
Ry21EyT.jpg

 

Conversion rate is highest in the league. Six units above the next top tier team (Chelsea). I'm very happy with this because it shows that we do not only score the most goals, we also probably create the best opportunities. Other possible explanations for this would be our high player standard.
HCBgefU.jpg

 

To enhance this even further I will also show shots on goal, another stat where we sit on top of the chart. Here too we are 6 % above the next top team which is also joint second in the chart (Tottenham). We have an impressive number of 58% of our shots hitting the opponents goal.
s6DxO5T.jpg

 

Last offensive numbers I will show are the dribbles per game, here we sit at joint fourth position, 1 dribble per game from second and three from the first spot. I'm pleased with this too, It would be strange to expect more with just one attacking duty and just one player in the team having a higher/riskier mentality than positive.
Lzc1loz.jpg

 

As for the defensive numbers we have a good record for conceded goals. Where we sit second in the table. This is acceptable and I'm fine with this. It does show that even though the TIs are quite extreme it can still work out with the right players and duties. 

I do not want to concede too much but the main purpose of this project for me is to create attacking football with a moderate tempo. So this ain’t to shabby I suppose.
webEPld.jpg

 

How often does Ederson make extreme performances? Or simply put, how many clean sheets do we account for? The number is good enough here too, second (splitted) in the leaugue is fine.
Q9bwkPt.jpg

 

So, with those extreme settings, won't the defenders be forced to make last second risky efforts in your own area? It seems they don’t as we have given up zero penalties. This might of course also be a result of the excellent defenders in John Stones and Ruben Dias.
u9QVI3o.jpg

 

Tackles, we don't tackle a lot but when we do we usually win them. Tackle won ratio sees us winning second most of our attempted tackles just behind Liverpool who thrones at 90 % won.
BmnY6YY.jpg

 

Results for the first 11 league games and some more matches:
MzvEqvC.jpg

 

That's that about the pure numbers. Lets dig into the actual gameplay, or for starters closer to it anyway. These numbers will all come from a game versus my old team Fulham. We won 3 to 1.

 

I will start with the images of the average positions. First will be overall, then with the ball and lastly without ball. This seems alright to me, the position I'm least happy with is the MEZs. Who I find to be a bit too aggressive and maybe playing too close to the IWF at times. I really like how the team switches shape to something resembling a 4-1-4-1 in the defensive phase.
XaEtOjV.jpg
xqpQJtW.jpg
OZD9Tnz.jpg

 

Here you will be able to see the heatmap, I do like how this looks. It shows that we are playing on the front foot, keeping Fulham at bay for most of the time. You can also see that we play a lot on the right side high up the pitch but also that the MEZs and IWFs are combining a lot on the left. Maybe there is no real issue there. Key passes per 90 tells me that the MEZs is doing all right.
hTqLzGv.jpg

 

In this said game we shot 13 shots and actually everyone was predeceased by a key-pass. This is something I think is very good and shows that we are actually succeeding with the playing style. For those who don’t know a key-pass is simply a pass that leads to a shot being taken.
BwhGZGL.jpg

 

After the key-passes I think we can look at some clear cut chances and half chances. We got them in acceptable locations.
2BLLJDM.jpg

 

This leads us to the assists, we made two in this game and they came from those positions. The positions are good and I'm happy with them.
mOpeVfT.jpg

 

Goals, we scored three goals and all were from good areas. It won’t show here but one of Bernardo Silva's goals was from a corner. Those were the places we scored from.
cQtAN5C.jpg

 

This goal was started by Fournier at the rCWBs combining with Silva IWs to set up this beautiful goal. 

ed0c3ca56f2c1b02dfd8d18801c3e791.gif

 

This was a goal that shows our patterns and a large part of how I want a goal that we score shall look, even though its not perfect, this whole goal is a result of the JDP theories, players are at the right areas. Ready to take advantage when the time comes.832616f198e51ed56015c7fa83e5de99.gif

 

I will show some more analysis from another game, why not from a total crushing of Bournemouth. The end result was 6-0. My average positions are good, I like this. The positioning here is in my opinion better than the first game. The shape in which we defend again looks like a 4-1-4-1, this is something I think is good, because that is a more defensive formation than the one my Manchester City use and if we can transform to that one when defending its something good. Like the last time I will show them in the same order ( First will be overall, then with the ball and lastly without the ball).
JbeoaAt.jpg
X2gq0w0.jpg
1hwxfgk.jpg

 

Following the same pattern I will here show the heatmap of this game. Overall this is good, it shows how deep we forced Bournemouth to play. This also shows how well the LCWBs, MEZs and IWFs combines. (Mine is the right)
9BreyxC.jpg

 

Regarding key passes we actually had fewer here. But that doesn't really matter when you score 6 braces.
ld5fBMi.jpg

 

Clear cut chances created + the half ones amassed just three. Still, scored a lot so no worries.
8K52Tfu.jpg

 

Assists was once again located in good areas and even though we scored quite a few we only managed two assists.
wEi2aci.jpg

 

Finally, goals. Where did we score them? It seems all was in the penalty area, even if the RPMs were close!
WWQoZ3S.jpg

 

In this game the aforementioned Gelson Gomes subbed on for Sterling and the team really did its best to make his day a good day. He scored two quite similar goals with just 6 minutes in between them. This shows some combination plays before we attack with more decisiveness.
TlDjFSy.jpg
QUxT0ZP.jpg

 

Here we will see Gomes with the ball, I actually do not know how he got this pass or whatever it was trough to Jovic who scores an easy tap-in.

e5164f1af224c58ef70914fe7d7ecd3a.gif

 

This goal is also a good goal, IWs combining with RCWBs and the RPM to score this well executed goal. The right winger is a gem and I had him in both Fulham and here, in Fulham they said he could become the best player in the team. In City the scouts said he will probably be as good as Raheem Sterling. I might have overpaid for him though at £104M. Maybe I will show him later.

576b2cb4d0dfd815f2a3145ce5bc9d61.gif

 

Again, here is another goal, supposed to show a pattern I like, no this is not our standard goal, but with decent roles and duties you can pull off good counter even with those non counter friendly TIs.

31c4dbde4b0c1602616d1619607f5722.gif

 

And well here is another one. This is one of the regular goals we score, Davies with the ball, finding the IWFs and then either the TRQ or MEZs finish the move. (here it is the MEZs)

70c2903f7ba7ba35cfa54d6c28c905da.gif

 

This will probably be my last goal, I'm fond of this one. Great moves and even better ending.

9b3bfc84e1d458b2b24f4694ba604f9b.gif

 

Oh well, this is the last one I promise. Nice combinations ending up with an awsesome goal for L. Martinez.
ad3f02317e91f78e98cafa5cf5d7fb8c.gif

 

It seems as if I can't find the goal I'm looking for, it was quite a long slow buildup with a lot of players involved. In the end someone just placed it nicely in the net. Well well if I find it I will show it.

I think that's sufficient analysis for now. I can talk about my away tactic for a while (or well, I seldom use it away, just facing really good opposition and then only away too, maybe I use it 2-4 games out of 10). It's as I have said earlier, quite similar to the home edition but instead of as in the home version using our possession mainly to create, attack and try to score. In the away version the main idea is to starve the opposition off. If we have the ball they can’t score. To achieve this I needed to change the possession TIs. The passing was set to be much shorter, opposed to before when it was just set to shorter. To further add to this style I set the tempo to much lower instead of lower. Here it does not either seem like a good idea to let the players take more risk, if a key aspect is to just keep the ball for the sake of it. I have also removed the work the ball into box instruction simply because if we get an opportunity I do not want the player to hesitate. Go for it if there is a chance. The transition setting was also considered, in the previously shown home edition I wanted Ederson to distribute quickly whereas here I told him to give it to the centre backs. Apart from this the tactic is the same when it comes to TIs. 

PIs is the same except for the centre backs, they had none before. In this version they are told to Close down less. This to mitigate some of the maxed out TIs when it comes to everything(!) without the ball. Im also more afraid of the centerbacks being dragged out of position in this version. This hopefully helps with that.

 

The last thing changed is one role, as we are much more considered about the possession and not the intentions in this version the trequartista is not included. As the trequartista arguably being the least attacking player in the striker strata with an attacking duty there won’t be any attacking duty included in this version nor do I want a defensive duty. At this point all of the roles that include supporting duties are still on the plate. But as before, I won't use the target man due to players not being suited for this. So now we have PFs, DLFs, CFs and F9. The CFs won’t be considered because I think it does too much and I want the player here to do less - more often. The false nine does dribble more, which is actually not something I really want. I would rather have the player holding up the ball but then again, the F9 drops deeper than both the DLFs and the PFs. So a false nine it is, it won’t be given any PIs and the mentality for this role in this setup is balanced.. I suppose everyone knows about this argentinian who plays for Barca. He brought this role back to the lime-light. The point is to have the striker drop deep, both to create an advantage in the midfield due to high numbers stacked there. The other reason is to get a central defender to follow the F9 deep which will create space for wingers/inside forwards or on running midfielders to abuse.

S2T7Q55.jpg

 

Pros and cons of the false-nine.
Pro’s:
*Drops deep
*Can overload midfield
*Lots of space and time to pick out passes for onrushing teammates.

Con’s:
*Who will actually score if the striker leaves that area?
*Balanced mentality is not that exciting.
*If the midfield gets overloaded, will there be any space? 

The players for this role are the same as before, the preferred choice is Lautaro Martinez, he's comes deep to collect the ball (which he learned after the SS is really something that is essential here).

 

I will now show the complete tactic.

QLnaknf.jpg

 

And last but not least, this versions mentality spread.

Balanced (F9)
Positive (IWFs) - Positive (IWs)
Positive (MEZ) - Positive (RPM)
Balanced (DMd)
Positive (CWBs) - Balanced (BPDd) - Balanced (BPDd) - Positive (CWBs)
Balanced (SKd)

Or the one with the better overview.

BAL
POS-POS
POS-POS
BAL
POS-BAL-BAL-POS
BAL


The next post will dive into development, which will include the building of the club/squad and hopefully parts about training (still haven't played any more so I do not know if it works).
 

Edited by Djuicer
wrong pictures for some stats, organization

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Those average positions with the ball are beautiful geometric passing porn.

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Posted (edited)

The mean blue machine is keeping on rolling!

DhpJu4n.jpg

 

Can we reach 50?

 

This is 43, Arsenal please..

QQzXQst.jpg

And thats the 44th in the bag.

tM81r1T.jpg

 

Oh well, that's that. Spurs broke the streak. 1-0 at the tham stadium. Kane scores a pen.

Edited by Djuicer

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9 hours ago, Djuicer said:

Are you sure about the players? I think they are in closest to furthest Villa, Messi, Iniesta, Pique and Keita (or Abidal). 

IMO that team played mostly down the right, creating overloads there to set Villa and Iniesta free on the left with loads of space. As their like standard build up.

true and since i'm in the brick of losing every hope of getting the Serie A i experimented with suggestions from you and @yonko and this is, i hope, a type of goal i'll see frequently. 

 

and this song from one of my favorite games, enjoy together :D

 

 

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8 hours ago, daveb653 said:

This is a really interesting post Yonko, if you don't mind could you give me a couple of examples of when you'd use a couple of them? One thing that always eludes meis how subtle changes in roles, eg HB to DM effect the game and the player. From my limited knowledge, I assuming that when you say most conservative, your giving up attacking intent for more possession? and vice versa with the CM-A?

 

Well, changing from DM-D to HB-D is easy to decide. It's when the opponents play with 2 STs. Or if the play with high press and very attacking AMC. This change to HB can have a snowball effect as it may force me to change the AP to DLP if I see there is some disconnect. 

On the other hand, if I'm facing a formation with 3 CBs and WBs, then I want more attacking options, so I go for CM-A. 

If I'm facing equally strong/high profile team like Real M, City or Liverpool, then I want more possession control. Then I will use DLP-S and AP-S with either DM-D or HB-D combination. 

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7 hours ago, Luizinho said:

Do you find that using two Inside Forwards makes your attack quite rigid?

I find that Inside Forwards play too high for my team to keep the ball efficiently, so I use an IW (S) on one side to encourage the him to drop deep, link with the midfield and help create an overload with the MCs. I guess it's a Possession v Penetration weigh-up with no right or wrong answer.

That can be a challenge sometimes, yes. But using Be More Expressive also includes roaming, so I think that helps make the IFs available for passes. There are also times when I use Overlap instructions (at least on the side where my playmaker is), which then brings the individual mentality of the IF down to Attacking and also ups it for the CWB to Attacking as well.

But if you go for using Barcelona from 2010-11 season (the best team ever IMO) and Pedro and Villa in particular, then Pedro was IW at AMR and Villa was IF at AML.

In my save, I have Mbappe, Sterling, Ansu Fati for the AMR and AML, so I want them to be more of goalscorers along with my Treq (Messi or Almada). I also have Pedri who actually is better suited as IW. 

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Posted (edited)

Why Defensive Midfielder and not Half Back, or DLP?I think dribble less, work ball into box, hold shape and take short kicks is more effective/better.
Pep use bots defenders IWB on Support, midfielders role is AP SU and MEZ AT, GK is set to SK SU/AT.

Edited by sniper234

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7 hours ago, yonko said:

Well, changing from DM-D to HB-D is easy to decide. It's when the opponents play with 2 STs. Or if the play with high press and very attacking AMC. This change to HB can have a snowball effect as it may force me to change the AP to DLP if I see there is some disconnect. 

On the other hand, if I'm facing a formation with 3 CBs and WBs, then I want more attacking options, so I go for CM-A. 

If I'm facing equally strong/high profile team like Real M, City or Liverpool, then I want more possession control. Then I will use DLP-S and AP-S with either DM-D or HB-D combination. 

Thanks for that @yonko may i ask why its easy to decide the HB switch, is it because the HB drops deeper? Also do you change much if the team is sitting deeper against you? i just played Spurs away and though i won 3-1 my keeper played well and stopped a couple that could have gone in. The issue was I seemed to struggle to break down/through there defence (4-1-4-1 on cautious mentality) then one of my players would get robbed on the ball and we'd be countered. We had twice as many shots as them but they had equal number on target. So there shooting, to me was more meaningful.

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I've been reading this topic with great interest, as there has been some really great input.

I've really struggled to develop a possession based tactic with the current ME (it just seems to suit the counter).

However what I can't quite work out from this thread is what people are trying to do.

Is it to emulate Pep's City or Barca tactic ?

Or develop a possession based tactic that with work on the FM20 ME ?

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Posted (edited)
17 hours ago, daveb653 said:

Yeah i initially thought that, but read that a 4-2-3-1 is notoriously hard to balance, plus then its not Milan from back in the 03 ish season. but i guess you could make it play like a 4-3-3, fairly easy, I presumed regista would be best for him as it seems to have alot more freedom to move around the pitch and less defensive responsibility than a dlp. Why defend when you Gattuso next to you. :) 

Its harder to pull of, but it can still be done. Its just that you will have to figure out what you want to do and think about the roles and positions even more. Using two DMs instead of CMs makes it just a bit more realistic IMO.

10 hours ago, DimitrisLar said:

true and since i'm in the brick of losing every hope of getting the Serie A i experimented with suggestions from you and @yonko and this is, i hope, a type of goal i'll see frequently. 

 

and this song from one of my favorite games, enjoy together :D

 

 

Beatiful! great goal :applause:

9 hours ago, yonko said:

Well, changing from DM-D to HB-D is easy to decide. It's when the opponents play with 2 STs. Or if the play with high press and very attacking AMC. This change to HB can have a snowball effect as it may force me to change the AP to DLP if I see there is some disconnect. 

On the other hand, if I'm facing a formation with 3 CBs and WBs, then I want more attacking options, so I go for CM-A. 

If I'm facing equally strong/high profile team like Real M, City or Liverpool, then I want more possession control. Then I will use DLP-S and AP-S with either DM-D or HB-D combination. 

This and more are really good thoughts! using dual playmakers vs strong op. is clever. My concern would be familarity? would this thinkering not screw that up? or do you have the midfield combos as your three tactics?

5 hours ago, sniper234 said:

Why Defensive Midfielder and not Half Back, or DLP?I think dribble less, work ball into box, hold shape and take short kicks is more effective/better.
Pep use bots defenders IWB on Support, midfielders role is AP SU and MEZ AT, GK is set to SK SU/AT.

 

28 minutes ago, fumaca09 said:

I've been reading this topic with great interest, as there has been some really great input.

I've really struggled to develop a possession based tactic with the current ME (it just seems to suit the counter).

However what I can't quite work out from this thread is what people are trying to do.

Is it to emulate Pep's City or Barca tactic ?

Or develop a possession based tactic that with work on the FM20 ME ?

@sniper234 @fumaca09

 

Its just ideas grabbed from diffrent teams, Peps spirit hoovers over all of this but its not supposed to be carbon copies. The main goal is to create a possession based tactic that works in the ME, with influences from IRL teams and methods as inspiration.

 

Why would it be better to hold shape? I know Pep for example is very strict when it comes to positions but that would just make the play stale and would stop us to break on the counter. I could have used IWBs but that would not have worked out with the 2 in each zone rule of JDP, or atleast not as fluid as this IMO.

 

@yonko and @DimitrisLar must answer what they want to do, but I think they have the same end goal as me. Just small changes in the way to get there.

Edited by Djuicer

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19 minutes ago, fumaca09 said:

I've been reading this topic with great interest, as there has been some really great input.

I've really struggled to develop a possession based tactic with the current ME (it just seems to suit the counter).

However what I can't quite work out from this thread is what people are trying to do.

Is it to emulate Pep's City or Barca tactic ?

Or develop a possession based tactic that with work on the FM20 ME ?

for the last part, speaking for myself, i try to make a possession tactic with more logica(?) roles and 1-2 movements of Pep's Barca. 

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3 minutes ago, Djuicer said:

Why would it be better to hold shape? I know Pep for example is very strict when it comes to positions but that would just make the play stale and would stop us to break on the counter. I could have used IWBs but that would not have worked out with the 2 in each zone rule of JDP, or atleast not as fluid as this IMO.

This is the tactic i have now.

lazioposs.thumb.png.93bbe4f19c6bb50b2609ad140b3d8596.png

Same old overkill story i use 4 seasons now, i change and i go back there again, but every movement now is like the player knows what to do and not like "its his position to be there, go there". CWBs are sensible, one IF bursts agressively (the left one) and the other (the right one) roams or receives for 1v1 after a combination in front of the box. Extremely decreased numbers of crosses, thank god! As you can see i used mixed things from your roles in the tactic and Yonko's too about the midfield, backs and if's. There are a lot of roams from position. Only IF(a), BPDs, GK and HB doent have that PI. The front tackle harder cause aggression is around 12. Both central midfield strata's have run wide with ball. It suits me better than stay wider cause they come very close to (especially)  the right flank, while with stay wider my AP for example would a little far for helping pres or contain the ball.

As you see i use hold shape too. Its the only one i didnt check in & out a lot in the tactic to see differences. Of course there have been some times a counter didn't happen but not sure if decision or movements of supporting attackers didn't go well.

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23 minutes ago, DimitrisLar said:

for the last part, speaking for myself, i try to make a possession tactic with more logica(?) roles and 1-2 movements of Pep's Barca. 

Thanks guys.

I just think there should be a way of developing a possession based tactic without having to employ Messi, Mbappe, KDB, etc

I know this type of football needs a more technical player but the current ME seems to only want to make it work if you have the world 11 at your club.

I am going to carry trying to see if there is a way

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1 minute ago, fumaca09 said:

Thanks guys.

I just think there should be a way of developing a possession based tactic without having to employ Messi, Mbappe, KDB, etc

I know this type of football needs a more technical player but the current ME seems to only want to make it work if you have the world 11 at your club.

I am going to carry trying to see if there is a way

not exactly. you re just gonna have the results depenting on the league and your players abilities combined. I have 2 Serie A titles with Lazio but every year i go out of CL at the round of 16. I have the highest of some core attributes for my system in the league but the league is in a lvl that 14 average is top, so i outplay in departments which are enough and essential.

This is my HB, he is not even near to a Busquets. My team concedes cause of him but at the same time he begins the passes that end to goals like in the video i posted. His PPM's are good enough for his position, core attributes ok. Here he goes, a homegrown Lazziali! I can post all my first team, its like that except two players who are all rounded Italians who are in the first team since their early 20's.

 cataldi.thumb.png.c0681f9abb0f4182b5d2e351e4cf7121.png

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Posted (edited)
22 minutes ago, DimitrisLar said:

This is the tactic i have now.

lazioposs.thumb.png.93bbe4f19c6bb50b2609ad140b3d8596.png

Same old overkill story i use 4 seasons now, i change and i go back there again, but every movement now is like the player knows what to do and not like "its his position to be there, go there". CWBs are sensible, one IF bursts agressively (the left one) and the other (the right one) roams or receives for 1v1 after a combination in front of the box. Extremely decreased numbers of crosses, thank god! As you can see i used mixed things from your roles in the tactic and Yonko's too about the midfield, backs and if's. There are a lot of roams from position. Only IF(a), BPDs, GK and HB doent have that PI. The front tackle harder cause aggression is around 12. Both central midfield strata's have run wide with ball. It suits me better than stay wider cause they come very close to (especially)  the right flank, while with stay wider my AP for example would a little far for helping pres or contain the ball.

As you see i use hold shape too. Its the only one i didnt check in & out a lot in the tactic to see differences. Of course there have been some times a counter didn't happen but not sure if decision or movements of supporting attackers didn't go well.

It seems close to mine except for some roles and TIs. I personally do not like defend wider nor hold shape but I can't say they won't work :)

 

14 minutes ago, fumaca09 said:

Thanks guys.

I just think there should be a way of developing a possession based tactic without having to employ Messi, Mbappe, KDB, etc

I know this type of football needs a more technical player but the current ME seems to only want to make it work if you have the world 11 at your club.

I am going to carry trying to see if there is a way

Start out minimalistic, simple roles very few TIs. Maybe just 2-3. 

I would start with maybe balanced mentality,

IN POSSESSION: lower tempo, shorter passing, POD.
none for TRANSITIONS
more urgent pressing for WITHOUT THE BALL.

EDIT: thats 4 TIs. My bad.

Edited by Djuicer

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Posted (edited)
18 minutes ago, DimitrisLar said:

 cataldi.thumb.png.c0681f9abb0f4182b5d2e351e4cf7121.png

For him maybe not being as talented as Busquets, He sure got a nice spread of attributes for the deep midfielder role! With just some more PA that player would have been a true world beater. Really nice PPMs too (or the ones we can see).

Edited by Djuicer

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Posted (edited)
38 minutes ago, fumaca09 said:

Thanks guys.

I just think there should be a way of developing a possession based tactic without having to employ Messi, Mbappe, KDB, etc

I know this type of football needs a more technical player but the current ME seems to only want to make it work if you have the world 11 at your club.

I am going to carry trying to see if there is a way

Nope, first season after promotion. Just needs to be set-up properly and use some creative thinking, as an example all of my defenders are CMs or DMs converted to play wingbacks or centrebacks. Primarily for technical proficiency from the back but also because of pace and anticipation they provide when playing a high press. I find BPD that are pacy to be sparse and very over-priced in the transfer market but there is an abundance of CMs that can be converted and moulded in to CBs

 

Annotation 2020-05-04 141729.png

Annotation 2020-05-04 1419002.png

Edited by Crazy_Ivan

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34 minutes ago, DimitrisLar said:

This is the tactic i have now.

lazioposs.thumb.png.93bbe4f19c6bb50b2609ad140b3d8596.png

Same old overkill story i use 4 seasons now, i change and i go back there again, but every movement now is like the player knows what to do and not like "its his position to be there, go there". CWBs are sensible, one IF bursts agressively (the left one) and the other (the right one) roams or receives for 1v1 after a combination in front of the box. Extremely decreased numbers of crosses, thank god! As you can see i used mixed things from your roles in the tactic and Yonko's too about the midfield, backs and if's. There are a lot of roams from position. Only IF(a), BPDs, GK and HB doent have that PI. The front tackle harder cause aggression is around 12. Both central midfield strata's have run wide with ball. It suits me better than stay wider cause they come very close to (especially)  the right flank, while with stay wider my AP for example would a little far for helping pres or contain the ball.

As you see i use hold shape too. Its the only one i didnt check in & out a lot in the tactic to see differences. Of course there have been some times a counter didn't happen but not sure if decision or movements of supporting attackers didn't go well.

What are your player instructions my friend?

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3 minutes ago, Crazy_Ivan said:

Nope, first season after promotion. Just needs to be set-up properly and usesome creative thinking. All of my defenders are CMs or DMs converted to play wingbacks or centrebacks. Primarily for technical proficiency from the back but also because of pace and anticipation they provide when playing a high press.

 

Impressive! Good job @Crazy_Ivan :thup:

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3 minutes ago, Crazy_Ivan said:

Nope, first season after promotion. Just needs to be set-up properly and usesome creative thinking. All of my defenders are CMs or DMs converted to play wingbacks or centrebacks. Primarily for technical proficiency from the back but also because of pace and anticipation they provide when playing a high press.

 

Annotation 2020-05-04 141729.png

Annotation 2020-05-04 1419002.png

typical Cruyff thought! Done that for years. And Wingers with 10 marking and around there tackling are great for dl/dr too!

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2 minutes ago, DimitrisLar said:

typical Cruyff thought! Done that for years. And Wingers with 10 marking and around there tackling are great for dl/dr too!

Cleon once taught me to use my FB who was useless as a FB to be retrained and moulded to play  as a deep-lying forward. It was staring me in the face all along but I just couldn't see it. Why I love this forum.

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Posted (edited)
11 minutes ago, Pep468 said:

What are your player instructions my friend?

all the front 5 have tackle harder and roam.

IF(a) and IF(s) have stay wider too. EDIT: IF(s) has get further forward too

AP(a) get further forward and RPM move into channels. Both have run wide with ball too.

BPDs stay wider.

CWB cross more often.

All of that is a combination with the PPMs i think. I dont have any player in the team with run with ball at the left/right. I dont know how that effects one way or the other and everyone who had is gone from the team, not cause of that xD

Edited by DimitrisLar

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Posted (edited)
3 minutes ago, Crazy_Ivan said:

Cleon once taught me to use my FB who was useless as a FB to be retrained and moulded to play  as a deep-lying forward. It was staring me in the face all along but I just couldn't see it. Why I love this forum.

 

8 minutes ago, DimitrisLar said:

typical Cruyff thought! Done that for years. And Wingers with 10 marking and around there tackling are great for dl/dr too!

 

This is great, I also use this. Look at this guy, bought him from Young-Boys I think as a forward, but all I saw was a midfielder in the making.

ueJsWr8.jpg

Edited by Djuicer

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Just now, Djuicer said:

 

 

This is great, I also use this. Example this guy, bought him from Young-Boys I think as a forward, but all I saw was a midfielder in the making.

ueJsWr8.jpg

Wijnaldum! :D  :D

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Posted (edited)
7 minutes ago, DimitrisLar said:

IF(a) and IF(s) have stay wider too. EDIT: IF(s) has get further forward too

AP(a) get further forward and RPM move into channels. Both have run wide with ball too.

Do you find that your IF (S) and RPM (S) get in each other's way on the right hand side?

Edited by Luizinho

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Just now, Luizinho said:

Do you find that you IF (S) and RPM (S) get in each others way on the right hand side?

no they never do. Every move is clear, even when the IF(s) roams. I'll post you a video to see what h e tries to do up front. He just wants to start passes that either go to him or the other IF. Most times the less passes the combination has the less ,it ends on the left, the more on the right.

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34 minutes ago, fumaca09 said:

Thanks guys.

I just think there should be a way of developing a possession based tactic without having to employ Messi, Mbappe, KDB, etc

I know this type of football needs a more technical player but the current ME seems to only want to make it work if you have the world 11 at your club.

I am going to carry trying to see if there is a way

Of course it's possible, you can get lower league teams/players to play possession football if you so wish. It depends what you're aiming for, but you can even rack up 65% plus possession on average whilst still winning and creating plenty of chances in games.

It does require time, patience, and to be prepared to put the work in. Lets take the matchday first, if you want to (well, near as) always be in control and dominate and rack up the high %'s then you have to watch matches in full and micromanage. Your formation and/or roles will have to differ from game to game, to counter different threats, exploit weaknesses, maintain superiorities, etc. You will have to react within games if the opposition makes changes. Sometimes if your players just aren't performing on the day you have to change things up eg. tempo, risk settings. And, even though it's boring from a gameplay point of view, you have to kill chunks of the game, eg. ten mins before the break just go overkill on the settings for keep ball etc. or when you're 2-0 up in the second half.

I haven't even mentioned getting the tactics right in the first place, and this is an area where I'd differ from many who do these sorts of threads.....

It also requires time to build a squad. Possession football carried out very well will take seasons worth of work. To build a squad with the required technical and mental attributes, traits, and to have gelled into a unit, plus longer if you wish to focus on academy (the right coaches, players, etc.). @Crazy_Ivan is completely right in terms of the vision of what players you need and how to go about it such as retraining players. I see so many FM'ers trying to play possession football or showing off saves and going like "Defenders need Strength, Tackling, Jumping,  Pace etc" and I think, why? You're aiming to have the vast majority of the ball with it on the ground, I want technical qualities more to be able to build up play. Sure you might be caught out sometimes if your defenders then aren't of the 'classic' mould, but if I'm doing things right and have the vast majority of the ball and attacking most of the time I can accept it.

You definitely don't need world beaters, a good coherent plan and putting in the effort will yield results.

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32 minutes ago, Luizinho said:

Do you find that your IF (S) and RPM (S) get in each other's way on the right hand side?

do you see that hallway, big traffic opening where my AP(a) at the end sends his awfully executed pass? My IF(s) usually receives exactly in front of the opponent GK. No messing between RPM and IF(s), everything clear

 

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19 minutes ago, mp_87 said:

Of course it's possible, you can get lower league teams/players to play possession football if you so wish. It depends what you're aiming for, but you can even rack up 65% plus possession on average whilst still winning and creating plenty of chances in games.

It does require time, patience, and to be prepared to put the work in. Lets take the matchday first, if you want to (well, near as) always be in control and dominate and rack up the high %'s then you have to watch matches in full and micromanage. Your formation and/or roles will have to differ from game to game, to counter different threats, exploit weaknesses, maintain superiorities, etc. You will have to react within games if the opposition makes changes. Sometimes if your players just aren't performing on the day you have to change things up eg. tempo, risk settings. And, even though it's boring from a gameplay point of view, you have to kill chunks of the game, eg. ten mins before the break just go overkill on the settings for keep ball etc. or when you're 2-0 up in the second half.

I haven't even mentioned getting the tactics right in the first place, and this is an area where I'd differ from many who do these sorts of threads.....

It also requires time to build a squad. Possession football carried out very well will take seasons worth of work. To build a squad with the required technical and mental attributes, traits, and to have gelled into a unit, plus longer if you wish to focus on academy (the right coaches, players, etc.). @Crazy_Ivan is completely right in terms of the vision of what players you need and how to go about it such as retraining players. I see so many FM'ers trying to play possession football or showing off saves and going like "Defenders need Strength, Tackling, Jumping,  Pace etc" and I think, why? You're aiming to have the vast majority of the ball with it on the ground, I want technical qualities more to be able to build up play. Sure you might be caught out sometimes if your defenders then aren't of the 'classic' mould, but if I'm doing things right and have the vast majority of the ball and attacking most of the time I can accept it.

You definitely don't need world beaters, a good coherent plan and putting in the effort will yield results.

Thank you.

I think I need to go back to the drawing board with my tactics.

Perhaps think more laterally around the players I need to play possession football.

I'll let you know how I get on.

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Another question for you all.

Team width.

I see a lot of people set a Pep team to narrow and plat through the middle.

However, Cruyff and Guardiola both have talked about using maximum width of the pitch.

Thierry Henry spoke to Pep dropping him because he wouldn't stay on the touchline.

Sane had chalk on his boots from hugging the touchline.

Would maximum width with IW create this effect ?

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, fumaca09 said:

Another question for you all.

Team width.

I see a lot of people set a Pep team to narrow and plat through the middle.

However, Cruyff and Guardiola both have talked about using maximum width of the pitch.

Thierry Henry spoke to Pep dropping him because he wouldn't stay on the touchline.

Sane had chalk on his boots from hugging the touchline.

Would maximum width with IW create this effect ?

I agree with this. As you can see I use only focus through the middle but just to get higher mentalites deeper down the field.

Kihi4X2.jpg?2

The IWFs and IWs is also told to stay wider. 

For me, if you do not try to keep width.. you are closer to gegenpressing than positonal play.

 

 

Just another goal I like, after a throw down left, great spacing and positioning creating this opportunity, and Neymar with that amount of time.. well ofc he will score :lock:

8125c4c615d833669ac20b0e8ddf9773.gif

Edited by Djuicer

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6 hours ago, daveb653 said:

Thanks for that @yonko may i ask why its easy to decide the HB switch, is it because the HB drops deeper? Also do you change much if the team is sitting deeper against you? i just played Spurs away and though i won 3-1 my keeper played well and stopped a couple that could have gone in. The issue was I seemed to struggle to break down/through there defence (4-1-4-1 on cautious mentality) then one of my players would get robbed on the ball and we'd be countered. We had twice as many shots as them but they had equal number on target. So there shooting, to me was more meaningful.

Yes it is easy to decide about the HB because he drops deeper and help with possession/build from defense. 

Against defensive teams and formations, I will use CM-A and I may go to Attacking team mentality. There are other basic changes that can be made like removing Work Ball Into Box, even adding Crossing Earlier or Shoot more, playing with more Width.

Don't make all changes at once though. Gradually tweak during the match, adding or removing one instruction at a time and watch what works or doesn't. 

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5 hours ago, fumaca09 said:

I've been reading this topic with great interest, as there has been some really great input.

I've really struggled to develop a possession based tactic with the current ME (it just seems to suit the counter).

However what I can't quite work out from this thread is what people are trying to do.

Is it to emulate Pep's City or Barca tactic ?

Or develop a possession based tactic that with work on the FM20 ME ?

Everyone that posts their set ups and ideas has different process of achieving possession tactic the way they see it. 

The important thing is to understand how each instruction affects that and to decide how your team will play possession tactic. 

There is always a starting point and often that point is Pep's Barca or City tactic, as much as the ME allows us to replicate. 

Gradually, the tactic can develop into something else, a different possession type. There are also many levels of possession tactic one can achieve with different set of instructions, roles and duties.

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