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36% possession, I just don't get it! I'm 14 games unbeaten, top of the league, but I want my team to dominate the game, I've tried so many different ways so I'm not looking for tips, I genuinely don't think I can fix it. It's obviously not based on one game, plenty of times possession can be 50%, but I think based on my tactics and based on how good my team is the possession should be higher.

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FT update Won 5-1, unsurprisingly Villa scored with their only shot on target, although they also had a goal ruled out for offside 

stats 2.JPG

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Hard to say, but passing into space, and being more expressive will cause the players to try more risky passes at least. What roles do you use?

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6 minutes ago, XaW said:

Hard to say, but passing into space, and being more expressive will cause the players to try more risky passes at least. What roles do you use?

Not going to deny I could change things to have more possession but the tactic (including a few variations) does work, the only problem is the amount of possession

 

I think being the better team and basically telling my players to play a short patient passing game should be enough, I have previously taken off both passing into space and more expressive but it doesn't improve it enough, as for the more expressive I take this as my front 5 may play crazy passes but the other 6 shouldn't, maybe the full back might too, but we've only attempted 437 passes compared to villa's 879, surely that shouldn't be right?

formation.JPG

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1 hour ago, stu9000 said:

I'm 14 games unbeaten, top of the league

If its not broken don't fix it.

I'd bet you get < 40% possession against defensive teams, they'll play a low team mentality and will pass is slowing around there defence.  Yes you have Higher D-Line, Higher LOE and More Urgent, but your formation doesn't put players naturally in position to press high due to being a DM formation.  With your two winger and AF setup I wouldn't want to press any higher than you are or you'll remove what space for those advanced runners to attack.

WBIB and Dribble Less will not affect your Wingers, there instructions are locked in.  Pass Into Space will affect every player in your team apart from AP who already has it locked in.  Your trying to be quite safe with the ball on one hand but then being extra risk on the other.  Is it wrong? No but is it what you intended if your expecting to have more possession?  Your front 3 setup and those extra risks you've added through TIs don't really fit a possession system but its clearly working for you.  Its very hard to improve a tactic that has you top of the league, you almost always have to take something out to add something else in which risks making things worse.

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1 hour ago, stu9000 said:

36% possession, I just don't get it! I'm 14 games unbeaten, top of the league, but I want my team to dominate the game, I've tried so many different ways so I'm not looking for tips, I genuinely don't think I can fix it. It's obviously not based on one game, plenty of times possession can be 50%, but I think based on my tactics and based on how good my team is the possession should be higher.

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Your team is dominating the game. Theyre winning 4-0 at half time. Dont get much more dominant than that.

Why pass for the sake of passing? make chances, take chances, win games.

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9 minutes ago, summatsupeer said:

If its not broken don't fix it.

I'd bet you get < 40% possession against defensive teams, they'll play a low team mentality and will pass is slowing around there defence.  Yes you have Higher D-Line, Higher LOE and More Urgent, but your formation doesn't put players naturally in position to press high due to being a DM formation.  With your two winger and AF setup I wouldn't want to press any higher than you are or you'll remove what space for those advanced runners to attack.

WBIB and Dribble Less will not affect your Wingers, there instructions are locked in.  Pass Into Space will affect every player in your team apart from AP who already has it locked in.  Your trying to be quite safe with the ball on one hand but then being extra risk on the other.  Is it wrong? No but is it what you intended if your expecting to have more possession?  Your front 3 setup and those extra risks you've added through TIs don't really fit a possession system but its clearly working for you.  Its very hard to improve a tactic that has you top of the league, you almost always have to take something out to add something else in which risks making things worse.

As you say it ain't broke, I was more just having a moan as I've tried many many different combinations but the possession seems to only get worse, I did originally put this in general discussion as it was more of a moan.

Thing is I don't want to rip up the tactic as I say it does work for results, just frustrated, barring when Leicester won the league the top teams have the majority of possession, Liverpool play this type of formation (granted different player roles) but they press relentlessly and have the majority of the ball

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4 minutes ago, FMunderachiever said:

Your team is dominating the game. Theyre winning 4-0 at half time. Dont get much more dominant than that.

Why pass for the sake of passing? make chances, take chances, win games.

Because I want them to, I want my cake and I want to eat it :) , I get you're point but I feel like i'm asking them to keep the ball and they're not, Pep wouldn't be happy so neither am I :) 

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15 minutes ago, stu9000 said:

As you say it ain't broke, I was more just having a moan as I've tried many many different combinations but the possession seems to only get worse, I did originally put this in general discussion as it was more of a moan.

Thing is I don't want to rip up the tactic as I say it does work for results, just frustrated, barring when Leicester won the league the top teams have the majority of possession, Liverpool play this type of formation (granted different player roles) but they press relentlessly and have the majority of the ball

FYI in real life they measure possession by pass numbers but FM measures it by time so its not a fair comparison.

You can't just push D-Line and LOE higher and say job done that should work because it does for someone else.  Whilst you recognized Liverpool play different roles, those roles AND duties are key, they create the majority of the style.  Especially in a 4141 DM Wide, what that lone centre forward does affects the combinations available for all those players around him.  How Firmino drops, presses, links and creates allows for those runs by Mane and Salah.  Thats very different from your setup where the ST is told to focus on trying to make forward run in behind defences even before considering the wide player roles&duties.

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8 minutes ago, summatsupeer said:

FYI in real life they measure possession by pass numbers but FM measures it by time so its not a fair comparison.

You can't just push D-Line and LOE higher and say job done that should work because it does for someone else.  Whilst you recognized Liverpool play different roles, those roles AND duties are key, they create the majority of the style.  Especially in a 4141 DM Wide, what that lone centre forward does affects the combinations available for all those players around him.  How Firmino drops, presses, links and creates allows for those runs by Mane and Salah.  Thats very different from your setup where the ST is told to focus on trying to make forward run in behind defences even before considering the wide player roles&duties.

I didn't know that about the possession numbers but Villa still had double the amount of passes which I don't think should be right

I'm not trying to copy how Liverpool play, I was just using them as the obvious example of a team that plays a similar formation but press and do it so well but still have majority of possession, I just don't think how my team is setup and how good they are that they should be having so little of the ball against a mid table side, Villa sit 10th and I'm into my 4th season

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As already pointed out, the way possession is measured is not indicative of how the game is going, look at the action zones and you'll see that. Teams who come and sit off you will use lower mentalities which makes their players prone to keeping hold of the ball and rarely making forward passes, with your deep formation I struggle to see how you'll win the ball back efficiently too.

 

You also aren't using roles set up for possession football imo, the wingers will be really wide and the AF will offer little in the build up, but it's working for you so don't rip it up. I'd just take it on the chin as the possession stat in FM is meaningless.

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8 minutes ago, stu9000 said:

I didn't know that about the possession numbers but Villa still had double the amount of passes which I don't think should be right

I'm not trying to copy how Liverpool play, I was just using them as the obvious example of a team that plays a similar formation but press and do it so well but still have majority of possession, I just don't think how my team is setup and how good they are that they should be having so little of the ball against a mid table side, Villa sit 10th and I'm into my 4th season

Why is it not right considering your setup?  You have two wingers and a AF up front, those three are about as opposite as you can get from possession roles.  When those three get the ball, they want to run with it themselves to take on defenders, then either cross, get a shot or play a through ball (due to your TI increasing there preference for risky passes).  Yes you've reduced the teams tempo and passing range, but that front 3 are still looking to take risks when they have ball which means risk giving it away.  On top of that the rest of the team is risking giving it away due to trying risky passes often, even if there passing range, tempo and dribbling is reduced.

If you want more possession i'd expect less focus on risky passes, less focus on crossing, less focus on running in behind opponents so your available for a pass to feet more often to link passes together... but your top so :stop:

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The roles u are using is not going to create lots of possession for u as all of the attacking players will want to attack the box as quickly as possible. If u want to play possession football u will need to think how to create lots of passing triangles and diamonds and try to create overloads. All these are basic principles of possession football. Look over to the threads pinned at the tactics forum. I believe there are some threads that specifically discuss about possession football in detail. There are also occasional threads in this forum that focuses on guardiola tactics and possession football. Learn about these principles and apply them to ur team.

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Like zifon says above those roles are not the most suitable if you want to keep the ball.

Two wingers who will run on the flanks and cross the ball to an advanced forward who will play on the shoulder of the last. defender. Behind, you have an AP on attack, which means that not only he will have creative freedom but also, his duty will make him take even more risks.

But then again, that direct style seems to work well for you.

 

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Posted (edited)
47 minutes ago, summatsupeer said:

Why is it not right considering your setup?  You have two wingers and a AF up front, those three are about as opposite as you can get from possession roles.  When those three get the ball, they want to run with it themselves to take on defenders, then either cross, get a shot or play a through ball (due to your TI increasing there preference for risky passes).  Yes you've reduced the teams tempo and passing range, but that front 3 are still looking to take risks when they have ball which means risk giving it away.  On top of that the rest of the team is risking giving it away due to trying risky passes often, even if there passing range, tempo and dribbling is reduced.

If you want more possession i'd expect less focus on risky passes, less focus on crossing, less focus on running in behind opponents so your available for a pass to feet more often to link passes together... but your top so :stop:

I don't think it's right because I'm asking my players to press that's all of them in particular the front 5, that can't be happening because of the amount of passes the other team has, and when we do have the ball i'm asking them to take there time on the ball but if there's an opening then go for it, but also to work the ball into the box, I've taken away both be more expressive and pass into space at varying times to see if this helps but what I find if my AP playing less "hollywood" passes to my AF which is again is something I want if it's on to do. I like my players to have the creative freedom to try things, I trust them to do something creative, but I also don't want them to do it for the sake of it and if it's not on to play the simple ball and keep probing.

I get the point several of you make about the wingers but the other options are great, I don't want another AP in the team, IW really are the same (or should be) except there coming inside onto their stronger foot rather than going on the outside and the IF just seem to shoot constantly. But what I actually want is those wide men to be as wide as 18 yard box with the full back wider, so this means the b2b or ap has 3 options to play through or if the ball is out wide lets say the right, the right winger and full back are trying to work the ball into the box, so eventually a tap in (see Man city) or if it is a cross in not only is my AF there but so should be the LW & AP.

As for winning the ball back as I've said I want my front 5 pressing there's no way they should have been able to make 800+ passes, Man City have only averaged 650+ this season

https://www.footballcritic.com/premier-league/season-2019-2020/passes-per-game/2/21558 

 

I know I'm comparing a video game to real life, but isn't this game striving for as much realism as possible

Edited by stu9000
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6 hours ago, stu9000 said:

I don't think it's right because I'm asking my players to press that's all of them in particular the front 5, that can't be happening because of the amount of passes the other team has, and when we do have the ball i'm asking them to take there time on the ball but if there's an opening then go for it, but also to work the ball into the box, I've taken away both be more expressive and pass into space at varying times to see if this helps but what I find if my AP playing less "hollywood" passes to my AF which is again is something I want if it's on to do. I like my players to have the creative freedom to try things, I trust them to do something creative, but I also don't want them to do it for the sake of it and if it's not on to play the simple ball and keep probing.

But your AF is not going to be involved in build up play. He will immediately look to get forward to receive a pass. Wingers will stay wide and look to dribble and/or cross. The two midfielders are looking to get forward and compress the attack. But the HB drops the other way so you have no midfield pivot. This is conducive to having the ball going wide quickly, followed by a cross, or a lost dribble. It is going to be very hard to recycle the ball from a failed probe down one flank with this tactic. Even a single IWB(S) would probably help with that.

There is also the fact that you are likely winning the ball high up the pitch most of the time. Which means you do not slowly advance the ball from the back, but have it in midfield to start. And if the counter press works right you will get when the AI is not properly set in defence. That lends itself to being direct. You want to attack quickly in those situations. Be more expressive and pass into space will encourage this too, as will having two wingers. 

In the end you have to ask yourself if you would prefer a 4-0 half time lead or 60% possession. 

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I have to agree with the others here, your team is not set up for possession football, but if it’s a successful tactic I would just carry on.

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I think it's rather clear(?) that TS wants to understand why his tactic isn't getting high possession, so saying that he should just be happy with winning isn't helpful. He wants to understand the game better, not just win.

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The only way I've been able to 'counter' these overly defensive teams and win the possession battle has been to completely overload their defensive third with bodies. 

The fact that your pass completion is 91% and you've absolutely dominated the game indicates that low possession is absolutely not a fault of your tactics, it's a quirk/bug.

Somewhat counter-intuitively, I've found that systems with two or three actual strikers do a good job of preventing mid-table teams from racking up hundreds of passes between their centre backs and DM/CMs and dominate possession from there. If your team is good enough the opposition generally isn't ambitious enough to punish you.

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I tweaked the formation for the next game, still kept the wingers as I said earlier I don't see another option other than IW, I don't want my AF too involved in build up play, I took the point about the HB, I think in a attacking team the HB should be able to step out, Kalvin Phillips plays this role at Leeds and still has plenty of the ball, but I have changed this, also moved my AP to number 10 so pressing should be better, I still think though on Attack he should have naturally moved into this space though. 

 

I think the red card allowed us to have the ball more, before then RB had around 50 passes more than me, we'd already had I think just 20 shots by then though

formation2.JPG

4-0.JPG

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9 hours ago, stu9000 said:

I don't think it's right because I'm asking my players to press that's all of them in particular the front 5, that can't be happening because of the amount of passes the other team has,

Just because you've told your to press more urgently, higher LOE and higher d-line doesn't mean it will be effective.  How good are the advanced players at it?  Especially as you have a DM to shield the CBs, are those front 5 trying to press 6, 7 maybe more opponents who are involved in there transitions so just passing around your players however much they chase the ball?

9 hours ago, stu9000 said:

and when we do have the ball i'm asking them to take there time on the ball but if there's an opening then go for it, but also to work the ball into the box,

they're still told to be risky due to team mentality and will follow there instructions on what to try even if given more time to decide what to do.  Wingers dont care you've told the team to work ball into box, it doesn't apply to them because you've told them specifically to cross more often.

9 hours ago, stu9000 said:

I've taken away both be more expressive and pass into space at varying times to see if this helps but what I find if my AP playing less "hollywood" passes to my AF which is again is something I want if it's on to do.

He already has the risky passed often PI so pass into space doesn't affect him specifically.  I would guess its due to space created from another players risky pass that opens space for the AP to then play his pass once he gets it.

9 hours ago, stu9000 said:

I like my players to have the creative freedom to try things, I trust them to do something creative, but I also don't want them to do it for the sake of it and if it's not on to play the simple ball and keep probing.

Really thats down to player attributes, if you want them to be efficient they need to be smart enough to pick the time to try something.  Playmakers and generic roles (asked to do everything) need to be good at deciding which option they should use, specialists (wingers, bwm etc) have things easier since they have specific actions they're told to do more than others.

9 hours ago, stu9000 said:

I get the point several of you make about the wingers but the other options are great, I don't want another AP in the team,

I'd not put another playmaker in that team, mainly because your getting good results and it would be a big change.

9 hours ago, stu9000 said:

IW really are the same (or should be) except there coming inside onto their stronger foot rather than going on the outside

If the roles were the same they wouldn't have added it.  IW is still told to run with the ball but given more freedom to decide what to do with it than a winger.

9 hours ago, stu9000 said:

and the IF just seem to shoot constantly.

Are they selfish? Lack vision or intelligence to see the options (assuming there is another option) so just take the shot whilst they have the opportunity? Do they have the shoots from distance trait?  

9 hours ago, stu9000 said:

But what I actually want is those wide men to be as wide as 18 yard box with the full back wider, so this means the b2b or ap has 3 options to play through or if the ball is out wide lets say the right, the right winger and full back are trying to work the ball into the box, so eventually a tap in (see Man city) or if it is a cross in not only is my AF there but so should be the LW & AP.

Man City are really selective with there through balls and vary there wide player positioning using Wingers + IWBs or IF/IW + WB.

If want AP in the box more i'd look at his traits to try to make that happen more often.  Arrive Late is a good option for pullback type goals.

9 hours ago, stu9000 said:

As for winning the ball back as I've said I want my front 5 pressing there's no way they should have been able to make 800+ passes, Man City have only averaged 650+ this season

https://www.footballcritic.com/premier-league/season-2019-2020/passes-per-game/2/21558 

I know I'm comparing a video game to real life, but isn't this game striving for as much realism as possible

You seem overly focused that because 5 players are pressing you should have more possession.  Focus on what your doing with the ball to, if you give the ball away quickly due to the roles+duties you've selected (regardless of shorter passing + lower tempo + WBIB) after your players have been chasing the ball around, that press is going to get less and less effective.  Its a really intense style to press hard and then attack fast, even in RL Liverpool suffered until Klopp got the team fitter and brought in new players but also refined there style against defensive teams. In that Villa game your players ran nearly 4 miles more so not having the ball isn't from lack of running after it!

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2 hours ago, summatsupeer said:

You seem overly focused that because 5 players are pressing you should have more possession.  Focus on what your doing with the ball to, if you give the ball away quickly due to the roles+duties you've selected (regardless of shorter passing + lower tempo + WBIB) after your players have been chasing the ball around, that press is going to get less and less effective.  Its a really intense style to press hard and then attack fast, even in RL Liverpool suffered until Klopp got the team fitter and brought in new players but also refined there style against defensive teams. In that Villa game your players ran nearly 4 miles more so not having the ball isn't from lack of running after it!

I'm focused on the 5 pressing because from best I can tell it's in this area that Villa had the ball, I get that player roles has a massive impact, but I should be able to tell them I'm not happy with certain things, or that certain things such as cross more often shouldn't be hard coded, I should be able to have them sit more narrow, I should have total control, but I still also believe there is an issue with possession/amount of passes the other team has within the game, I think that despite of player roles I should have more passes/possession against Villa than I did

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16 hours ago, stu9000 said:

formation.JPG

 

16 hours ago, stu9000 said:

Not going to deny I could change things to have more possession but the tactic (including a few variations) does work, the only problem is the amount of possession

Well, using an AP on attack duty and winger role on both flanks does not really go hand in hand with a possession-oriented style (given that it's your stated goal). Actually, your overall setup of roles and duties is more suited to some sort of hybrid between counter-attacking and wing-play than possession football. 

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1 hour ago, stu9000 said:

I'm focused on the 5 pressing because from best I can tell it's in this area that Villa had the ball, I get that player roles has a massive impact, but I should be able to tell them I'm not happy with certain things, or that certain things such as cross more often shouldn't be hard coded, I should be able to have them sit more narrow, I should have total control,

You really think a winger shouldn't have cross more often hard coded?  Whats the point in him then?  Whats point in any of the roles and duties if they can all end up doing the same thing?  Dunno what to tell you, you are able to tell them what to do, you've chosen those roles and duties.

The game used to be totally customization but was too easy to exploit and do things the game couldn't deal with and AI managers would never do.

1 hour ago, stu9000 said:

but I still also believe there is an issue with possession/amount of passes the other team has within the game, I think that despite of player roles I should have more passes/possession against Villa than I did

Well i'll leave it here then cos I disagree and can't really give you any more information than I have.  If you think there's a issue/bug in the game you'll have to raise it in that section with saved matches etc.

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1 minute ago, summatsupeer said:

You really think a winger shouldn't have cross more often hard coded?  Whats the point in him then?  Whats point in any of the roles and duties if they can all end up doing the same thing?  Dunno what to tell you, you are able to tell them what to do, you've chosen those roles and duties.

The game used to be totally customization but was too easy to exploit and do things the game couldn't deal with and AI managers would never do.

Well i'll leave it here then cos I disagree and can't really give you any more information than I have.  If you think there's a issue/bug in the game you'll have to raise it in that section with saved matches etc.

I don't think a winger cross for the sake of it, in RL do you think wingers just cross for the sake of it? I'm pretty sure if the overall message was to work the ball into the box that's what they would do or else the manger would hook them off, we've got onto the wingers being the problem but I don't actually think they are, I've put on my passing and crossing and Villa's, I don't think 9 crosses from my RW is excessive, although it does depend on how they came about and also the delivery type, the player with 10 crosses i'm assuming is my corner kick taker, we had 9 corners. As I look at them to me it looks like my GK and defence try to play the ball forward quickly not passing it around themselves compared to Villa, I have play out from the back on and a low tempo, surely there should be more passes between them? But if not then why do Villa have that many? I know I have 1 BP CB  does again surely this means he tries to pass it even more and not playing a long ball, and he has the least passes out of the back 4.

 

We can agree to disagree, I appreciate you trying to help

mine.JPG

theirs.JPG

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3 minutes ago, stu9000 said:

I'm pretty sure if the overall message was to work the ball into the box that's what they would do or else the manger would hook them off

First off, player instructions take precedence over team instructions (at least in FM). Secondly, nothing works in isolation when it comes to tactics. For any instruction to work, the whole tactic needs to be conducive to such type of behavior. 

Of course, you are absolutely entitled to ignore all suggestions people gave you and play the game however you want. Because ultimately it's your team (save) and your tactic. 

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19 minutes ago, Experienced Defender said:

First off, player instructions take precedence over team instructions (at least in FM). Secondly, nothing works in isolation when it comes to tactics. For any instruction to work, the whole tactic needs to be conducive to such type of behavior. 

Of course, you are absolutely entitled to ignore all suggestions people gave you and play the game however you want. Because ultimately it's your team (save) and your tactic. 

Well maybe there should be something in the game to say which one should be more important, a players instruction or the team instruction is more important

I've actually taken people's suggestions on board, as I've shown in a different picture, I've changed formation to 4-2-3-1 and dumped pass into space and be more creative, so a bit harsh

But I do still think regardless of my tactics a mid table prem club shouldn't be having over 800+ passes against a top of the table side who are looking to press and play out from the back, I tried to provide evidence of this from RL.

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35 minutes ago, stu9000 said:

I don't think a winger cross for the sake of it, in RL do you think wingers just cross for the sake of it?

Depends on the player, if thats all they're good at then yes tbh and its my fault for buying them :lol:.  Some players are head down direct simple players whilst others are head up and more intelligent.  How they play the winger role would differ even though there focus is the same, to try to take opponents on and cross.  It won't be the only things they do but that's what they will look to try and do more often and what other options they see and decide to do depends on there attributes.

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I'm pretty sure if the overall message was to work the ball into the box that's what they would do or else the manger would hook them off, we've got onto the wingers being the problem but I don't actually think they are, I've put on my passing and crossing and Villa's, I don't think 9 crosses from my RW is excessive, although it does depend on how they came about and also the delivery type, the player with 10 crosses i'm assuming is my corner kick taker, we had 9 corners.

26 crosses isn't bad really, but I think that is kind of due to how little you see of the ball.  If you pressed really high and even more aggressive with more players in high positions I would expect that number to increase since space for through balls would be reduced except on the flanks and you'd have more attacks that have to end somehow.

Its not just crossing, they could of dribbled into a dead end, got tackled, had a pot shot, ran out of play.   The question is more "when/how do you typically lose possession?".  The opponents are probably taking dozens of passes before losing possession whilst your teams taking more risks with dribbling, through balls, crosses etc and losing possession in less time and less passes.

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As I look at them to me it looks like my GK and defence try to play the ball forward quickly not passing it around themselves compared to Villa, I have play out from the back on and a low tempo, surely there should be more passes between them? But if not then why do Villa have that many? I know I have 1 BP CB  does again surely this means he tries to pass it even more and not playing a long ball, and he has the least passes out of the back 4.

This is likely due to Villa being on Defensive or Counter mentality, they're told to take very few risks and aren't really looking to attack, hence don't lose the ball as quickly as a team thats choosing to take risks.  Your team mentality plays a big part in how the team plays before TIs come into it.

I'm guessing the bottom 3 are your front 3?  Purely because I'd expect them to be the lowest passes in the team.  I'm also guessing there forward is the only one who has a lower pass number, which also isn't surprising considering they're in no rush to get him the ball and likely don't commit players forward to help him.

 

Quote

We can agree to disagree, I appreciate you trying to help

No problem, if I have something new to add i'll try to help, I just don't want to repeat myself.

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Posted (edited)

This is a quirk-almost-bug as some else said, so we should all admit that, though it's not game breaking. I created two threads recently 'high positive possession' and AI 'peak Barcelona with no penetration' on this, there's some tips and tricks in there that can help gain possession.

Recently, I analyse matches in-game if I'm not gaining the possession I want and adjust depending on what I see, so sometimes a half pitch press works better than a full pitch press for example.

But I want to echo what's also been said by others, your roles are not set up for huge possession numbers. The question is how much possession do you want over changing your working tactic? 

Edit: sometimes a 5 man split block can easily get bypassed with quick interchanges, so try a 3 or 4 man split block and keep solidity in the middle of the park if AI is winning midfield battle. Oh and defending wider is a must I've found to gain more possession.

 

Edited by Braincomplexa

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I think it was pointed out in other threads - there's a bit of an issue with ME where teams with managers with Plays out of defence tendency are going OTT with it by passing the ball between the defenders racking up 100s of pointless short passes and it's impossible to win the ball back.

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