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EHaZard10

Really struggling with 4123 - help needed please

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Posted (edited)

Hi there,

I am currently managing Chelsea and really struggling with my tactic currently. I have been following quite a few threads and trying to work on a progressive attacking style football that i have seen mentioned in a few threads here. I could definitely use @Experienced Defender defender's help as i've been following a lot of your posts!

 

My form has been horrendous recently and i am not creating any chances at all. I'm trying to get my forward, MEZ and inside forward to chip in with the bulk of the goals but struggling to create any chances. Whatsmore, at home, against aston villa after following some threads i lost to aston villa at home and had 34% possession. I usually struggle against low block tactics anyways.

Strat:

 

731016416_Screenshot2020-04-09at20_45_15.thumb.png.a58264ebe8136ce47445408af934a5a8.png

DM PI : tight marking

DLP Winger MEZ and Winger all have close down more PI's.

 

1800846913_Screenshot2020-04-09at20_43_37.thumb.png.57aa9c61f45f3c6a2823ed594755feb8.png

 

Things i notice: pointless crosses that are blocked by opposing defenders. RB especially missing interceptions and goals coming from runners from the LHS. There is no penetration in our attack. It seems all we do is just get it out wide and attempt crosses, which is not what i want. I would like to see the IF coming in to attack space. My goal is to see possession but with more penetration. would appreciate any input especially @Experienced Defender who's ideas i've modelled on!

 

Thank you!

 

 

 

 

 

Screenshot 2020-04-09 at 20.31.04.png

Edited by EHaZard10
incorrect pic

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1 hour ago, EHaZard10 said:

731016416_Screenshot2020-04-09at20_45_15.thumb.png.a58264ebe8136ce47445408af934a5a8.png

 

1 hour ago, EHaZard10 said:

I am currently managing Chelsea and really struggling with my tactic currently. I have been following quite a few threads and trying to work on a progressive attacking style football that i have seen mentioned in a few threads here. I could definitely use @Experienced Defender defender's help as i've been following a lot of your posts!

Looking at this tactic, I think it needs just a couple of tweaks. But which exact tweaks these could or should be - depends on what exactly you want to achieve.

So let's see: 

1 hour ago, EHaZard10 said:

Things i notice: pointless crosses that are blocked by opposing defenders. RB especially missing interceptions and goals coming from runners from the LHS. There is no penetration in our attack. It seems all we do is just get it out wide and attempt crosses, which is not what i want. I would like to see the IF coming in to attack space. My goal is to see possession but with more penetration. would appreciate any input especially @Experienced Defender who's ideas i've modelled on!

First off, I have to ask 2 questions:

1. Why do you play Sancho as an IF on the left and Pulisic as a winger on the right? Wouldn't the opposite make more sense? 

2. Are you sure that Zouma and Tomori are the best choice for the CB pair in this Chelsea squad? 

1 hour ago, EHaZard10 said:

and goals coming from runners from the LHS

Whose goals - yours or opposition?

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pulisic has cuts inside from wide areas, right? if traits dont match is a problem. maybe dm will help you with some retention in support duty. explore the f9 on abraham though i see him as a runner type or a hold ball target man, not coming deep but not sure.

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Thanks for the input guys, really appreciate it.
@Experienced Defender

25 minutes ago, Experienced Defender said:

 

Looking at this tactic, I think it needs just a couple of tweaks. But which exact tweaks these could or should be - depends on what exactly you want to achieve.

So let's see: 

First off, I have to ask 2 questions:

1. Why do you play Sancho as an IF on the left and Pulisic as a winger on the right? Wouldn't the opposite make more sense? 

2. Are you sure that Zouma and Tomori are the best choice for the CB pair in this Chelsea squad? 

Whose goals - yours or opposition?

1) The reason i play sancho as an IF is that i would like to see him cutting in and contributing to goals, which is not happening at the moment. My thinking was that putting him as a winger would keep him very wide and not narrower in a more possession style. I would like to see him closer to the goal with the intentionof him chipping in 10-15 goals a season hopefully. 

2) Rudiger out for 9 months so the idea was to have strong pacy defenders at the back that have decent First touch and speed to stop counter attacks

3) and that's from the opposition goals

26 minutes ago, DimitrisLar said:

pulisic has cuts inside from wide areas, right? if traits dont match is a problem. maybe dm will help you with some retention in support duty. explore the f9 on abraham though i see him as a runner type or a hold ball target man, not coming deep but not sure.

@DimitrisLar can try it but i'm not sure Tammy is suited to playing a f9, as you said more a runner.

 

My goal ideally is i would like to see a bit more penetration and chances created from this team. Progressive possession football. We struggle to create anything meaningful especially against teams who defend and give less space. I'm not sure on how to break teams down.

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9 minutes ago, EHaZard10 said:

The reason i play sancho as an IF is that i would like to see him cutting in and contributing to goals, which is not happening at the moment

Okay. Do you want me to give you an example of how I personally would tweak your tactic to help achieve that? 

 

10 minutes ago, EHaZard10 said:

Rudiger out for 9 months so the idea was to have strong pacy defenders at the back that have decent First touch and speed to stop counter attacks

Okay, but what is wrong with Christensen in that particular regard? 

 

11 minutes ago, EHaZard10 said:

and that's from the opposition goals

Okay, so you are conceding goals from Azpi's or Emerson's side? 

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4 minutes ago, EHaZard10 said:

Thanks for the input guys, really appreciate it.
@Experienced Defender

1) The reason i play sancho as an IF is that i would like to see him cutting in and contributing to goals, which is not happening at the moment. My thinking was that putting him as a winger would keep him very wide and not narrower in a more possession style. I would like to see him closer to the goal with the intentionof him chipping in 10-15 goals a season hopefully. 

2) Rudiger out for 9 months so the idea was to have strong pacy defenders at the back that have decent First touch and speed to stop counter attacks

3) and that's from the opposition goals

@DimitrisLar can try it but i'm not sure Tammy is suited to playing a f9, as you said more a runner.

 

My goal ideally is i would like to see a bit more penetration and chances created from this team. Progressive possession football. We struggle to create anything meaningful especially against teams who defend and give less space. I'm not sure on how to break teams down.

general advices when opposing minnows

open attacking width

maybe put higher tempo to cause some more fast pacing short passes, you have a good technically team.

also good dribblers, you can try to isolate a player like sancho so he can take one defender off after dribbling him.

if they are all back, maybe bully them with much higher d-line and higher loe. they wont get out of their box so why not taking back the ball asap.

learn your players better. i have a center back who avoids taking risks and i ll never play him again vs good opponents cause they pressure him. just got out of champions league pff.

 

 

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Thanks for the response guys, really appreciate it!

11 hours ago, Experienced Defender said:

Okay. Do you want me to give you an example of how I personally would tweak your tactic to help achieve that? 

 

Okay, but what is wrong with Christensen in that particular regard? 

 

Okay, so you are conceding goals from Azpi's or Emerson's side? 

@Experienced Defender I would love to see an example how you would tweak the tactic. I'm not opposed to playing sancho as a winger either, just prefer him to be more centrally involved in the play! How would you go about altering tactics mid game to break teams down?

Christiansen does get game time, i think tomori is my best defender but will involve christiansen more. 

Actually have been conceding on both sides but more recently from Emerson's left side.

 

11 hours ago, DimitrisLar said:

general advices when opposing minnows

open attacking width

maybe put higher tempo to cause some more fast pacing short passes, you have a good technically team.

also good dribblers, you can try to isolate a player like sancho so he can take one defender off after dribbling him.

if they are all back, maybe bully them with much higher d-line and higher loe. they wont get out of their box so why not taking back the ball asap.

learn your players better. i have a center back who avoids taking risks and i ll never play him again vs good opponents cause they pressure him. just got out of champions league pff.

 

 

Thank you @DimitrisLar, the only issue i see with playing a much higher D-line and higher LOE is that i congest space too much, and then poor decisions are made, and i become susceptible to the counter attack.

 

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3 hours ago, EHaZard10 said:

@Experienced Defender I would love to see an example how you would tweak the tactic. I'm not opposed to playing sancho as a winger either, just prefer him to be more centrally involved in the play!

Okay, I'll tell you what I would try first in an attempt to achieve what you described here:

DLFsu

IFat                                  Wsu

DLPsu    CMat

DMsu

WBsu   CDde  BPDde   IWBde

SKsu

NOTE: Sancho is still AML, but now as IF on attack duty

Team instructions:

Mentality - Positive

In possession - same as yours + overlap left

In transition and out of possession - same as yours

Player instructions:

STC/DLFsu - close down more

AML/IFat (Sancho) - sit narrower, close down more

AMR/Wsu - close down more

MCR/CMat - close down more

That's how I would set up the tactic if I wanted to make Sancho a primary goal threat without changing the overall style of play. 

But it does not mean that I would set up the tactic like this if I was a Chelsea manager. 

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Thank you @Experienced Defender. I will try this out first and let you know how it goes. Can i ask what issues you see with setting up the tactic as you detailed above and how you would set up the tactic if you were the chelsea manager?

And how you would go about adjusting the tactic in game against more compact defences and also against more difficult away teams?

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3 hours ago, EHaZard10 said:

Can i ask what issues you see with setting up the tactic as you detailed above and how you would set up the tactic if you were the chelsea manager?

I don't see any issues, I just think I would set the tactic up a bit differently. In fact, my Chelsea tactic would be more similar to your initial tactic than this one I suggested. 

Probably something like this:

PFat

IWsu                             Wat

DLPsu   MEZsu

DMsu

FBat   CDde  BPDde  IWBde

SKsu

Same team instructions as yours + overlap right. And a split block via PIs for the front 3 and mezzala. 

3 hours ago, EHaZard10 said:

And how you would go about adjusting the tactic in game against more compact defences

I rarely have trouble breaking down these very defensive teams in general, but when such situations happen - I make very small tweaks based exclusively on what I observe watching that particular match. Therefore, these small tweaks can vary from situation to situation. So I don't have any universal recipe to offer. 

 

3 hours ago, EHaZard10 said:

nd also against more difficult away teams?

In these tough matches, I first make sure I am compact in defense and to have both flanks as protected as possible, which means both wide forwards on support duty (to make sure they regularly track back to help the fullbacks). But other than that, my tactic for these tough matches is essentially very similar to my primary (regular) tactic. I may not insist on working ball into box for example. I also don't use counter-press against strong opposition. I may sometimes go with standard passing instead of shorter. Basically things like that, but nothing too different from my main tactic. And if I manage to take the lead, I may add the counter TI to take advantage of the space they usually leave behind trying to equalize. 

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Thank you very much @Experienced Defender really appreciate the input!

Regarding the first formation, why was the right CM role switched from Mezzala to CM attack? And i've noticed that azpilicueta struggles a bit as a IWB, perhaps a full back/wingback on defend duty could work? 

Although i see an issue with width as my both my winger and full back would both be wide so would i need to consider the winger role to accommodate a more wider full back?

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3 hours ago, EHaZard10 said:

Regarding the first formation, why was the right CM role switched from Mezzala to CM attack?

For 2 reasons:

1. With the winger already providing width, the CM is likely to work better as a simple and more direct type of deep runner, especially as the striker is played in the creator type of role (DLF in this case)

2 The player himself (while Kovacic definitely has the right attributes for a mezzala on support duty, there is a risk that he might struggle a bit as a MEZ on attack). 

3 hours ago, EHaZard10 said:

And i've noticed that azpilicueta struggles a bit as a IWB, perhaps a full back/wingback on defend duty could work?

If you feel he struggles as an IWB, I would recommend either FB on support or WB on defend (experiment with both to see which one suits him better in this setup). 

 

3 hours ago, EHaZard10 said:

Although i see an issue with width as my both my winger and full back would both be wide so would i need to consider the winger role to accommodate a more wider full back?

Which flank are you talking about? 

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Posted (edited)

Thank you @Experienced Defender. Really appreciate all your advice. The flank i was talking about earlier was the right wing flank. I was thinking about having both a winger on attack duty and a Wing back on defend duty. I have been including the suggestions you made but i still seem to have bad results unfortunately. I have been playing this tactic:

955062254_Screenshot2020-04-11at20_52_29.thumb.png.ec373402f48868eba4e4fa7bd808dd98.png

Removed the BME and counter press against stronger opposition but had not helped.

Winger, Mezzala and striker have close more often PI. DM has tight marking PI.

My last three results were all losses:

1587509162_Screenshot2020-04-11at20_58_37.thumb.png.137b725d532f7ecbf079a6aa4aa1110c.png

What i have noticed is:

When attacking:

-I still struggle to play possessional football with any penetration. Some games against OK teams at home i still struggle to keep the ball. Too many times the ball goes out wide and then the cross is blocked for a corner. This happens constantly and unsure why this is happening. I struggle to see how i am going to unlock defences with a lack of creativity in my play.  

- Lack of clear cut chances especially when i am behind and need to score. What i do is initially i push the D line up and the LOE. If the defense are too compact, then i try and draw them out by lowering the LOE and D line, to bring them in, check pass into space and play a bit more direct and quicker. That hasn't been working either. 

When Defending:

- Really struggle with set pieces. Conceding corners every game at the moment. Is this more to do with defending mentals? I've noticed that my defenders do make individual mistakes so perhaps that's where my team is just not up to scratch? I am usually punished by these goals. 

-  Defenders struggle to block and defend crosses. This is my second source of goals conceded. The RB (azpi/james) and LB (alonso/emerson) always, always get skinned by the opposition wingerand they cross from the byline usually resulting in a goal. Is this a lack of support from my wingers or do i need to consider tight marking? I'm not sure how i can contain these crosses.

Defending Corner Routine:

749362230_Screenshot2020-04-11at20_58_59.thumb.png.9a05675a3f9db456e7a25cb385bf08f3.png

 

Last match against Wolves:

1757143246_Screenshot2020-04-11at20_52_09.thumb.png.35bf606b96c065b9fcbfc51b66b94ed3.png

1503687549_Screenshot2020-04-11at20_51_25.thumb.png.58e8186be187182800a74b5cb6427ffb.png

Match against Man utd:

58414696_Screenshot2020-04-11at20_50_03.thumb.png.2f2302e25a18d9c3b75cacab786becfe.png

 

 

Screenshot 2020-04-11 at 20.50.49.png

Edited by EHaZard10

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4 hours ago, EHaZard10 said:

955062254_Screenshot2020-04-11at20_52_29.thumb.png.ec373402f48868eba4e4fa7bd808dd98.png

I would assume that your bad results have more to do with a wrong player selection than the tactic itself. I mean, you play Azpi as a FB on attack (instead of Emerson or Alonso) and Jorginho as DM on support (instead of Kante). 

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Thanks @Experienced Defender i had kante and alonso suspended from one game. But from what i've noticed, with any player that i''m playing i seem to be conceding a lot recently from crosses down the flank after my FB's getting skinned, and there seems to be a lack of both possession and penetration in my games. 

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2 hours ago, EHaZard10 said:

Thanks @Experienced Defender i had kante and alonso suspended from one game. But from what i've noticed, with any player that i''m playing i seem to be conceding a lot recently from crosses down the flank after my FB's getting skinned, and there seems to be a lack of both possession and penetration in my games. 

I really don't know what I can say, because the tactic itself really doesn't look bad. There is nothing that could be viewed as strikingly wrong, so it probably needs just minor tweaking in order to finally click. But that's something only you can do, because you watch your matches and therefore should be able to observe where the weak point is. Maybe the problem is not of a tactical nature, although in most cases it tends to be tactical. 

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On 10/04/2020 at 19:08, Experienced Defender said:

I don't see any issues, I just think I would set the tactic up a bit differently. In fact, my Chelsea tactic would be more similar to your initial tactic than this one I suggested. 

Probably something like this:

PFat

IWsu                             Wat

DLPsu   MEZsu

DMsu

FBat   CDde  BPDde  IWBde

SKsu

Same team instructions as yours + overlap right. And a split block via PIs for the front 3 and mezzala. 

I rarely have trouble breaking down these very defensive teams in general, but when such situations happen - I make very small tweaks based exclusively on what I observe watching that particular match. Therefore, these small tweaks can vary from situation to situation. So I don't have any universal recipe to offer. 

 

In these tough matches, I first make sure I am compact in defense and to have both flanks as protected as possible, which means both wide forwards on support duty (to make sure they regularly track back to help the fullbacks). But other than that, my tactic for these tough matches is essentially very similar to my primary (regular) tactic. I may not insist on working ball into box for example. I also don't use counter-press against strong opposition. I may sometimes go with standard passing instead of shorter. Basically things like that, but nothing too different from my main tactic. And if I manage to take the lead, I may add the counter TI to take advantage of the space they usually leave behind trying to equalize. 

Away tactic, my wide forwards are if(s) and w(s). So, which is better, both wide forwards with or without PI (close down more)? DLF(a) and cm(a) both are ticked (cdm). 

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16 hours ago, Kennedy79 said:

Away tactic, my wide forwards are if(s) and w(s). So, which is better, both wide forwards with or without PI (close down more)? DLF(a) and cm(a) both are ticked (cdm)

There is no "better" or "worse" per se. I need to see your tactic as a whole, but not here. If you want an opinion or advice on your tactic, please start your own separate thread.

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