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AWAY games vs BIG TEAMS starting to feel unfair!


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I am currently managing Arsenal and doing pretty well.However what I most enjoy in the game is winning against big teams in away matches.However that has been a particular area of problem for me.In home matches I usually am pretty comfortable against big teams.In away matches however when they play a pressing game it becomes nearly impossible to play.I know in real life away games are always difficult but in SI forums it has been repeatedly indicated that there is no built in home advantage.

My principle is using a 433.I love this formation and I want to combat any formation by smartly using this.

In Defence :

The big teams generally tend to play 433 or 4231 and use a pressing + possession game.In defend I tried low block press to high block press but I can not seem to get close to their players.They are generally good teams with players having good composure+balance but these same players seem out of depth when they are pressed in my home turf.I tried to be creative by channeling the ball to just wide areas and defending the crosses and overlaps or aggresively pressing the central defenders or trying to win ball from the guy who is being used as a distributor ( loke DLP) but they always find a way. 

I also tried low block stand off methods and holding position.It worked restricting chances.But after a while when the shot numbers pile up match engine seems compelled to give them a goal from a set piece.

In Offence :

I knew playing around the press would be difficult.So I used Half back to help build up from the back.I changed  one wing back into a fullback because wingback stays higher and easily gets sucked into the press.Tried midfield role to help with build up.Sometimes it helps,sometimes not.But in the end opposition defends so well it becomes impregnable.You would think using a winger or inside forward with attack duty where a opposition fullback bombed forward would help but it doesn't.Any chance of using the space left behind by opposition high press also becomes fruitless....as my forwards almost always get offside or tackled off the ball in these scenerios.Long ball tactics are also way too unreliable.

I also tinkered with different mentalities.Many said use defensive mentalities to keep hold of ball.I once saw Rashidi say to use a high enough mentality so players don't hoof the ball at first sign of trouble.But consistently creating good chances has always been a problem.

 

 

 

 

Conclusion:

In my nearly 50 seasons of management in FM 16 to FM 20,I tried literally hundreds of ways to beat big teams away.The above text presents only a few among them.It feels that no matter how brilliantly I plan before an away match,it is always very very difficult to win these matches.The margin for error seems to little where in home matches you need almost no planning to pull off an impressive victory.It feels bad going into an away match vs big team that regardless of planning you are most probably gonna end up losing.Some success can be found using Gung-ho tactics from the get go or using unrealistic formations.Defensive tactics are almost never rewarded.

If there is infact a built in home advantage,i need someone to confirm this.If there is none,someone need to teach me how to plan for these games.Thanks in advance.

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Nice Op. Having the same issue sadly. I mean if you have a weaker team its somewhere acceptable but im having troubles with these away games even with a big team and that is kinda annoying. Never had a experience like this in the FM's before (from FM18 and before). I kinda lost it in this, tried also doing rematches just to test different set ups. And as you said, somehow they score a goal and many times from set pieces too. And if you see all those exploit tactics, full of extreme pressing which are effective atm but im really trying myself to not use them tactics. 

Im going to keep an eye out here for if someone has some optimistic advices on this matter. 

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i disagree with you guys. i had a save with auxerre in fm18, we begun to trouble psg at my 4th season with some gegenpress, went to win the league in 5th or 6th and i think i won them on 6th or 7th really easy cause they had a change of manager. every time they had an italian manager i knew i was gonna get a result. In fm20 i play with gladbach with possesion football, i'm in 2nd season now and its the 6th in the game cause i started the save with bari. i was denyied a win in munich cause of a wrong execution in the throw in which led to lewa go 1v1. 

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6 hours ago, mister.cool40 said:

I am currently managing Arsenal and doing pretty well.However what I most enjoy in the game is winning against big teams in away matches.However that has been a particular area of problem for me.In home matches I usually am pretty comfortable against big teams.In away matches however when they play a pressing game it becomes nearly impossible to play.I know in real life away games are always difficult but in SI forums it has been repeatedly indicated that there is no built in home advantage.

My principle is using a 433.I love this formation and I want to combat any formation by smartly using this.

In Defence :

The big teams generally tend to play 433 or 4231 and use a pressing + possession game.In defend I tried low block press to high block press but I can not seem to get close to their players.They are generally good teams with players having good composure+balance but these same players seem out of depth when they are pressed in my home turf.I tried to be creative by channeling the ball to just wide areas and defending the crosses and overlaps or aggresively pressing the central defenders or trying to win ball from the guy who is being used as a distributor ( loke DLP) but they always find a way. 

I also tried low block stand off methods and holding position.It worked restricting chances.But after a while when the shot numbers pile up match engine seems compelled to give them a goal from a set piece.

In Offence :

I knew playing around the press would be difficult.So I used Half back to help build up from the back.I changed  one wing back into a fullback because wingback stays higher and easily gets sucked into the press.Tried midfield role to help with build up.Sometimes it helps,sometimes not.But in the end opposition defends so well it becomes impregnable.You would think using a winger or inside forward with attack duty where a opposition fullback bombed forward would help but it doesn't.Any chance of using the space left behind by opposition high press also becomes fruitless....as my forwards almost always get offside or tackled off the ball in these scenerios.Long ball tactics are also way too unreliable.

I also tinkered with different mentalities.Many said use defensive mentalities to keep hold of ball.I once saw Rashidi say to use a high enough mentality so players don't hoof the ball at first sign of trouble.But consistently creating good chances has always been a problem.

 

 

 

 

Conclusion:

In my nearly 50 seasons of management in FM 16 to FM 20,I tried literally hundreds of ways to beat big teams away.The above text presents only a few among them.It feels that no matter how brilliantly I plan before an away match,it is always very very difficult to win these matches.The margin for error seems to little where in home matches you need almost no planning to pull off an impressive victory.It feels bad going into an away match vs big team that regardless of planning you are most probably gonna end up losing.Some success can be found using Gung-ho tactics from the get go or using unrealistic formations.Defensive tactics are almost never rewarded.

If there is infact a built in home advantage,i need someone to confirm this.If there is none,someone need to teach me how to plan for these games.Thanks in advance.

I have always thought that home teams in fm have a slight advantage like in real life. May I know where do you got this information? Just won an away game 1-0 against a big team with 1-2 odds for them winning. AMA

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Would probably help more if you posted a picture of what strategy you use away to the big boys and what team you have. I think using a defensive mentality, in isolation, would be suicidal for a whole match. I literally might use it for the last 4-5 minutes with high time wasting and changing a few player roles to help see out a game against a big team but that's literally it.

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I actually tried everything...I actually have some saves before big games to test out different tactics.Does player stats suffer?Because players don't seem to perform at the same level as they do in home.

 

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Funny, I tend to have the opposite problem. I do rather well away from home against the big 6, (as they tend to be very aggressive up front but vulnerable to quick counter attacks), but really struggle to break down lesser sides at their home turfs when they get all catenaccio on me despite playing at home. My team's reputation is more or less in the category "best of the rest" these days. 

Mancitygame.thumb.png.31a7bb2c27e22255f2ceb734a16edc41.png

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I also felt a big difference in Fm20 compared to previous versions regarding top team prowess. It was one of the earlier patches, perhaps in december, that my top2 team which was struggling against lesser teams, suddenly started steamrolling with big and easy wins.

It's common to see Ai walk to the title with the likes of Liverpool, even unbeaten. I can't say It's unrealistic because before, it was too easy for the AI to camp their own box with a lesser team and nullify our attacking patterns.

I'ts too easy to manage big teams in this FM (i won the CL every season with Porto with a simple 433 gegenpress but the players actually suit that playstyle) and since then i have been playing in the lower leagues which is very difficult this year, especially if you're one of the worst.

The attacking AI will commit their fullbacks which in turn cross early and to the far post which often results in a goal. No matter how solid and reasonable your tactic is. You can't even exploit that space in the flanks like you could previously. I can't visualize why in the ME. I've tried to have both the fb and the wide mid with the same mentality for compactness and giving OI's to the fullbacks and it helps slightly.

I'm afraid the best solution is to come up with a sound táctical system in which your players support each other in transition as a cohesive unit, by making use of similar mentality structures, but not equal, and obviously depending on the players available.

 

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2 hours ago, mister.cool40 said:

I actually tried everything...I actually have some saves before big games to test out different tactics.Does player stats suffer?Because players don't seem to perform at the same level as they do in home.

 

It's hard to give advice without seeing what it should be based on. Just try posting your standard system and we can try and give some advice based on that. I read a good article a few weeks ago, regarding using your 3 x trained tactics, using slightly tweaked versions as plan A, B & C. For reference, this season so far (3rd season as Arsenal), my results against big sides this season are (my result first):

N Chelsea 1-0
A Chelsea 1-0
A Dortmund 1-1
H Spurs 1-0
H Man Utd 0-1 (league cup, I played a weakened side, United played a full side)
H Dortmund 2-0
A Man City 1-0
A Man Utd 0-0
H Liverpool 1-0
A Spurs 1-0

Basically my approach is still to continue my control possession style, but I tweak system (such as a 4-2-3-1 moving into a 4-4-1-1) etc., or occasional tweak of mentality slightly just to control overall risk aversion. I've been a bit lucky in some respects, but overall, I'm controlling the pace of the game, prepare well for each match.

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Hmm...

10 hours ago, Justified said:

Would probably help more if you posted a picture of what strategy you use away to the big boys and what team you have. I think using a defensive mentality, in isolation, would be suicidal for a whole match. I literally might use it for the last 4-5 minutes with high time wasting and changing a few player roles to help see out a game against a big team but that's literally it.

hmm...I also went gung-ho against big teams when my normal tactic wasn't working.Seems If you are lucky to survive those counter attacks,you can get a result..

 

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5 hours ago, llama3 said:

It's hard to give advice without seeing what it should be based on. Just try posting your standard system and we can try and give some advice based on that. I read a good article a few weeks ago, regarding using your 3 x trained tactics, using slightly tweaked versions as plan A, B & C. For reference, this season so far (3rd season as Arsenal), my results against big sides this season are (my result first):

N Chelsea 1-0
A Chelsea 1-0
A Dortmund 1-1
H Spurs 1-0
H Man Utd 0-1 (league cup, I played a weakened side, United played a full side)
H Dortmund 2-0
A Man City 1-0
A Man Utd 0-0
H Liverpool 1-0
A Spurs 1-0

Basically my approach is still to continue my control possession style, but I tweak system (such as a 4-2-3-1 moving into a 4-4-1-1) etc., or occasional tweak of mentality slightly just to control overall risk aversion. I've been a bit lucky in some respects, but overall, I'm controlling the pace of the game, prepare well for each match.

Wow...these are some sweet results...I am a bit reluctant to share my tactic because apart from the formation 433(or 4123 DM if u prefer ),I change a lot.Sometime I would go for controlling possession other times I would try to play speedy counter attacks.Sometimes I attack with wingbacks sometimes I  dont...depends on match situation.

 

 The thing that bothers me the most is not losing,but seeing my team struggle to compete.....In FM 20 sometimes  I can control the away match....but In some scenerios  when they start pressing everyone in my team starts clearing the ball regardless of their roles(BPD,DLP) or instructions(pass short,play out of the back etc)....and the clearances always lands on the opposition.My players struggle to win the second ball.And even though I put intense pressure on them they just pass around beautifully.They just camp in my half and my team struggles to get out.I would sometimes put AMR/AML or striker on attack duty and try to get quick ball to them.But they are always hard tackled or offside.It feels so  damn inferior.

I should however mention that these situations only happened only in select few away matches.But when they happened I struggled to find a consistent formula to get out of these situations.Is it because of my mentality?should I play cautious or balanced.I generally remain Positive because some fellow FM players said cautious encourages players to hoof the ball even more because players are trying to avert risk.However there is also a general opinion that lower mentality is ideal for keeping ball.So I am contradicted there.

Could it be because of defensive line?should I approach a  high or low defensive line?Should I press them or just stand off?Switch to 433 to a 4141 or 4411?Low block or high block?I am so confused.

So please tell me what sort of TI you use for these matches.My players are very versatile so I could pull off virtually any type of roles.So feel free to suggest anything.

Thanks in advance.

 

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8 hours ago, KyleHyde said:

I also felt a big difference in Fm20 compared to previous versions regarding top team prowess. It was one of the earlier patches, perhaps in december, that my top2 team which was struggling against lesser teams, suddenly started steamrolling with big and easy wins.

It's common to see Ai walk to the title with the likes of Liverpool, even unbeaten. I can't say It's unrealistic because before, it was too easy for the AI to camp their own box with a lesser team and nullify our attacking patterns.

I'ts too easy to manage big teams in this FM (i won the CL every season with Porto with a simple 433 gegenpress but the players actually suit that playstyle) and since then i have been playing in the lower leagues which is very difficult this year, especially if you're one of the worst.

The attacking AI will commit their fullbacks which in turn cross early and to the far post which often results in a goal. No matter how solid and reasonable your tactic is. You can't even exploit that space in the flanks like you could previously. I can't visualize why in the ME. I've tried to have both the fb and the wide mid with the same mentality for compactness and giving OI's to the fullbacks and it helps slightly.

I'm afraid the best solution is to come up with a sound táctical system in which your players support each other in transition as a cohesive unit, by making use of similar mentality structures, but not equal, and obviously depending on the players available.

 

I think I am struggling with the TIs...my roles and duties generally complement each other and apart from a few away matches they tend to do well

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51 minutes ago, mister.cool40 said:

Wow...these are some sweet results...I am a bit reluctant to share my tactic because apart from the formation 433(or 4123 DM if u prefer ),I change a lot.Sometime I would go for controlling possession other times I would try to play speedy counter attacks.Sometimes I attack with wingbacks sometimes I  dont...depends on match situation.

The thing that bothers me the most is not losing,but seeing my team struggle to compete.....In FM 20 sometimes  I can control the away match....but In some scenerios  when they start pressing everyone in my team starts clearing the ball regardless of their roles(BPD,DLP) or instructions(pass short,play out of the back etc)....and the clearances always lands on the opposition.My players struggle to win the second ball.And even though I put intense pressure on them they just pass around beautifully.They just camp in my half and my team struggles to get out.I would sometimes put AMR/AML or striker on attack duty and try to get quick ball to them.But they are always hard tackled or offside.It feels so  damn inferior.

I should however mention that these situations only happened only in select few away matches.But when they happened I struggled to find a consistent formula to get out of these situations.Is it because of my mentality?should I play cautious or balanced.I generally remain Positive because some fellow FM players said cautious encourages players to hoof the ball even more because players are trying to avert risk.However there is also a general opinion that lower mentality is ideal for keeping ball.So I am contradicted there.

Could it be because of defensive line?should I approach a  high or low defensive line?Should I press them or just stand off?Switch to 433 to a 4141 or 4411?Low block or high block?I am so confused.

So please tell me what sort of TI you use for these matches.My players are very versatile so I could pull off virtually any type of roles.So feel free to suggest anything.

Thanks in advance.

I normally stay fairly close to the preset styles, just with tweaks - so normally I use Control Possession, but sometimes i use Fluid Counter. My normal formation is a 4-2-3-1, but I sometimes use a 4-4-1-1 or a 4-3-3/4-1-4-1 - so, for formations I look at opponents system. Let's give an example. I was away to Liverpool earlier this evening. They were setup in a 4-2-3-1 system. As I was the away side, I decided I needed to be more cautious. I chose a 4-1-4-1 because I wanted to prevent the DM from having too much space unoccupied. In big games I like to have a spare man in defensive areas (so defence and defensive midfield). By going 4-1-4-1, the plan was to still play a possession style to have the ball, but not to overcommit - so this means sometimes tweaking a duty to a few more support duties, with an attack duty forward to chase out-balls into the channels. I sometimes just adjust the mentality slightly too. I took an early lead against Liverpool, then adjusted style to Fluid Counter, because I felt I was being threatened in behind. By sitting deeper, with a DM, it meant we were tougher to break down, but I did invite pressure. I was fortunate to convert a set piece on the hour, then I could focus on returning to a possession style, just controlling the tempo. It's often just small tweaks that make the difference. I'd make sure the style you use you are familiar with. Dropping wingers back to make a 4-2-3-1 a 4-4-1-1 is a valuable trick too. 

Don't get me wrong, I've got hosed in big games plenty of times. But making more subtle tweaks is definitely the most successful approach I have taken.

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3 minutes ago, llama3 said:

I normally stay fairly close to the preset styles, just with tweaks - so normally I use Control Possession, but sometimes i use Fluid Counter. My normal formation is a 4-2-3-1, but I sometimes use a 4-4-1-1 or a 4-3-3/4-1-4-1 - so, for formations I look at opponents system. Let's give an example. I was away to Liverpool earlier this evening. They were setup in a 4-2-3-1 system. As I was the away side, I decided I needed to be more cautious. I chose a 4-1-4-1 because I wanted to prevent the DM from having too much space unoccupied. In big games I like to have a spare man in defensive areas (so defence and defensive midfield). By going 4-1-4-1, the plan was to still play a possession style to have the ball, but not to overcommit - so this means sometimes tweaking a duty to a few more support duties, with an attack duty forward to chase out-balls into the channels. I sometimes just adjust the mentality slightly too. I took an early lead against Liverpool, then adjusted style to Fluid Counter, because I felt I was being threatened in behind. By sitting deeper, with a DM, it meant we were tougher to break down, but I did invite pressure. I was fortunate to convert a set piece on the hour, then I could focus on returning to a possession style, just controlling the tempo. It's often just small tweaks that make the difference. I'd make sure the style you use you are familiar with. Dropping wingers back to make a 4-2-3-1 a 4-4-1-1 is a valuable trick too. 

Don't get me wrong, I've got hosed in big games plenty of times. But making more subtle tweaks is definitely the most successful approach I have taken.

Hmm...how high or intense do you set the pressing instruction? 

and one problem against big teams is that they use their fullbacks to attack.How do you stop the overlap?

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20 minutes ago, mister.cool40 said:

Hmm...how high or intense do you set the pressing instruction? 

and one problem against big teams is that they use their fullbacks to attack.How do you stop the overlap?

Depends on my base style - you can't set the press in isolation from everything else. It depends how I want to attack, where I want to win the ball back, what kind of shape/formation I want to play. So, if I'm focusing on careful progressive possession, then I will have a higher line, if I am playing on the break, generally a much deeper line. But crucially everything has to be cohesive - my style, formation, roles and duties all need to be aiming towards the same thing.

By using more support duties they are more likely to track back and protect against the overlap. Additionally more support duties can help possession systems, and a fluid counter system.

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@mister.cool40 I had a game away, had to beat this team, we went away and won against a bigger team by playing to our strengths, because I knew my system inside and out and I knew where we were strongest. People can offer you advice and be general about it and you can soak everything in, and still learn nothing. At the end of the day it will depend on your own system and what you can extract from it.

Some people think a tactic should work all the time, I intentionally played a wingerless tactic on twitch for more than 2 seasons we won everything domestically, but i still told people, one day we are gonna get battered, and we did. This happened because I knew I hadn't met a team that exploited my weaknesses. One finally did and we completely caved, it took 1 and a half seasons of gameplay on twitch for that to happen.

The approach we need to take is understand the strengths and weaknesses of your own system. Again on Twitch a few days ago i played one of my best matches ever. I knew I couldn't match Liverpool's pace in attack, this was a match we absolutely had to win. So i hunkered into a portugese diamond, waited till their players got tired and then with 20 minutes to go we encouraged one player on the pitch who needed it, and switched to a system to exploit their tired fullbacks and we won the game. 

Sometimes I play with one system and then I noticed how reluctant another team is to attack me, so i encourage them more by creating false triggers allowing them to attack me in areas I want them to creating space behind for me to exploit.  It's actually very easy to stop the opposition fullbacks from exploiting your flanks. There are plenty of options depending on your tactic

1. Use OI
2. Use specific position marking
3. Use defensive width correctly
4. Use correct role and duty combinations 

At the moment we can only talk about our experiences, you havent shown your tactic, if you did, people could help you understand your options.

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This is the system I use in home....however in away matches I change a lot...I have 2 other tactics which consists of all other OI and different mentality + tempo+ passing settings so whenever I change something I retain familiarity (at least that's the idea)....I change shouts,roles,duties... sometimes I mirror the system...sometimes the wing backs get suck into the press...so I change into a full back role etc

 

I only face problem against likes of Man City,Chelsea and Liverpool when they start pressing....

I love the idea of the using complete or deep lying forwards however they always seem isolated...i tried a false nine role and  bought Lautaro Martinez especially for this role hold up play but still struggled to build up good passing combination against the press vs big teams.Then I ended up using him as an advanced forward....which is surprisingly quite effective as the advanced forward  extremely useful as a constant goal threat for crosses or long ball. He scored 35 goals in 37 games in PL last season.

@llama3 @Rashidi Thanks guys for replying....all my FM knowledge basically comes from you guys as I spent countless hours reading posts,threads replies,videos in the forum or youtube.It is nice to finally able to talk directly.

Screenshot (259).png

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There are little tweaks you can try to try and be a bit more defensive and see how they work:

  • Have Willock as a DLP (s) and Torreira as a standard DMC. Immediately this will give you more stability with a sort of double pivot in midfield. Also on the same side you have a FB on attack which is a bonus.
  • Remove the focus plays unless you see opposition get a yellow card on the defender on that side and then you can exploit that if you want.
  • Experiment with Tierney as a FB on support. He doesn't really need to be a wingback as you have Saka occupying that flank. Alternatively a IWB if he can perform that role.
  • If Martinez as AF works for you then cool. If he isolated at times try PF on attack and see if that helps.

Those are a few I can think of you can implement just to help you in those away games.

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Take a look at both your defenders and center midfielders. Are they strong enough defensively and tactically to contain the very top teams? (iirc only Torreira really) Well, the impact of player attributes is often neglected in these forums and i find them particularly important in this FM.

As a newly promoted team i've been having a hard time against attacking teams despite having new and exciting players. I was expecting more. But the things suddenly improved when i benched the new and promising 4 and 5* players in favor of the old 2* defensive midfielders that helped me promote in the previous season. The difference against big teams was night and day. Same tactic but improved defensive attributes in the center midfield along with tactical familiarity.

As a pressing system it's fundamental to have players with high work rate and team work accross the team.

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2 hours ago, KyleHyde said:

Take a look at both your defenders and center midfielders. Are they strong enough defensively and tactically to contain the very top teams? (iirc only Torreira really) Well, the impact of player attributes is often neglected in these forums and i find them particularly important in this FM.

As a newly promoted team i've been having a hard time against attacking teams despite having new and exciting players. I was expecting more. But the things suddenly improved when i benched the new and promising 4 and 5* players in favor of the old 2* defensive midfielders that helped me promote in the previous season. The difference against big teams was night and day. Same tactic but improved defensive attributes in the center midfield along with tactical familiarity.

As a pressing system it's fundamental to have players with high work rate and team work accross the team.

attributes of the players are always important in FM star ratings is always just a relative indicator. i had a 2 star player starting for me despite me being the top team in the league just because his attributes fit exactly what i need from that position and he always plays well. if your starting 11 has a lot of under 23 players, they tend to be a bit inconsistent u can have one really good game followed by absolute trash performance next so hidden attributes play a role here.

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13 hours ago, mister.cool40 said:

Screenshot (259).png

I am very hesitant to share my thoughts on this tactic because you yourself said that it really works well for you (apart from the matches against big teams), but - in all honesty - there is a lot I personally would change if this was my tactic.

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2 minutes ago, Experienced Defender said:

I am very hesitant to share my thoughts on this tactic because you yourself said that it really works well for you (apart from the matches against big teams), but - in all honesty - there is a lot I personally would change if this was my tactic.

Please do share....II know this is no way a perfect tactic. works well at home for sure...In away I change some roles duties,pressing ,focusing play through the middle that sort of thing and most of the case can grind out a victory.Against big teams I just come up short...would't want to miss your insight on this.

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3 hours ago, mister.cool40 said:

Please do share

Okay mate. Just keep in mind that my suggestions are based on my own tactical approach, which is certainly not the only one that is correct. So you don't have to follow it blindly. Because there are people with different approaches whose tactics are extremely successful. 

Now, let's start with the setup of roles and duties:

- having 2 playmakers so close to each other is something I am personally (almost) always opposed to. There are a couple of exceptions though, but this is not one of them

- your role combination on the right flank looks very nice (IFsu and FBat), the only problem is the lack of a holding/covering CM on that side (maybe that's not as much of a risk for a top team like Arsenal as it would be for some weaker side, but I have to stress the potential defensive risk nevertheless)

- the left side is less risky than the right one despite having 2 attack duties there (CMat and Wat), simply thanks to their distribution. However, you still need to pay attention to potential defensive vulnerability and perhaps consider switching the LB to a standard FB on support duty. In fact, IWB on support duty would be an ideal role from a purely attacking perspective, but in that case I would strongly recommend switching the DM into either a HB or anchor (so that he would be as focused on protecting the back-line as possible)

- AF tends to struggle for space when played as a lone striker, especially in this aggressive and attack-minded type of tactic. DLF on attack duty would be my preferred choice in this particular case (considering the rest of your setup). If your striker is not ideal for the DLF as a role, my other preferred option would be PF on attack duty

In terms of your team instructions, I would be very careful with more urgent pressing, especially taking your DL, LOE and mentality into account.

Other instructions are not wrong per se, as long as you know perfectly well why you are using them and how you should tweak them if things start going wrong.

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Thank you very much....If you have the time I have a few questions which always confuse me.

39 minutes ago, Experienced Defender said:

having 2 playmakers so close to each other is something I am personally (almost) always opposed to. There are a couple of exceptions though, but this is not one of them

Do playmakers have some hidden (do not appear in the PI menu) hard coded instructions that forces them to move towards ball and also the rest of the team to pass to them?Otherwise what's the difference between a DLP(su) and a CM(su) with the exact instructions?And does midfield pair's preferred foot dictate which side he should play?

And I have Joe Willock whom I want to be the main star in midfield...with his stats he can run with the ball and and also provide killer passes....what role should I select for him CM(A) or AP(A) with gets further forward PI?how would I set up the midfield around him (I do have pretty well rounded midfield players) ? Should I put him beside a winger( so he can move into space which the winger creates by dragging defenders to sideline ) or should he be around a inside forward? 

Joe Willock

And another thing that confuse me are the DM roles.Apart from seeing the halfback drop a bit more I see DM(defend),DLP(defend),anchorman all do the same things in terms of defending and attack.I know how they are supposed to be different,but just can not see them doing differently while watching  a match.

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I think you can one of two ways with Willock. Either Mezzala on attack duty (but you need a more defensive partner next to him) or a DLP on support as he'll get the team ticking over quite nicely. Taking his age into the equation I think you can make that choice now. If Matteo is Guendouzi next to him then why not have Matteo on a holding role and unleash Willock in a Mez role. Think he'd do quite well for you doing that.

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2 minutes ago, Justified said:

I think you can one of two ways with Willock. Either Mezzala on attack duty (but you need a more defensive partner next to him) or a DLP on support as he'll get the team ticking over quite nicely. Taking his age into the equation I think you can make that choice now. If Matteo is Guendouzi next to him then why not have Matteo on a holding role and unleash Willock in a Mez role. Think he'd do quite well for you doing that.

hmm I tried him sometimes in AP(su) and he can really dictate the game and ping those long range assists to the forwards....Mezzala could be effective  but I am fixated towards the idea of him running through the middle with the ball....any suggestion how could I make that work? 

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1 minute ago, Justified said:

Either get him to learn that PPM or simply add it as a PI and see how it looks.

I meant how the roles around him should be so he can get the space to run in to...

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@mister.cool40

  • Playmakers attract the ball yes - players will look to pass to them whenever they can. They still use decision making, so if the pass isn't on then that will be taken into account.
  • Willock is someone who can fulfil a number of roles. I like his ball carrying ability and pace. I think he's someone you want driving from deep, either with the ball, or off the ball. I'd suggest you're looking at a CM(A), MEZ(A) or AP(A) - don't choose by green circle, choose what works with the team
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1 hour ago, mister.cool40 said:

Do playmakers have some hidden (do not appear in the PI menu) hard coded instructions that forces them to move towards ball and also the rest of the team to pass to them?

Yes, because they are ball-magnets. So when you have 2 (or more) PMs in close vicinity, it can not just slow the play down unnecessarily but also potentially confuse other players. 

 

1 hour ago, mister.cool40 said:

Otherwise what's the difference between a DLP(su) and a CM(su) with the exact instructions?

CMsu is not a ball-magnet. And unlike a DLP, the CM on support duty is not hard-coded to hold position. Each role has some hard-coded behaviors that make it unique (even if you customize it via PIs). 

 

1 hour ago, mister.cool40 said:

And does midfield pair's preferred foot dictate which side he should play?

It does not literally "dictate", but can be taken into account as a secondary factor. 

 

1 hour ago, mister.cool40 said:

Joe Willock

 

1 hour ago, mister.cool40 said:

And I have Joe Willock whom I want to be the main star in midfield...with his stats he can run with the ball and and also provide killer passes....what role should I select for him CM(A) or AP(A) with gets further forward PI?how would I set up the midfield around him (I do have pretty well rounded midfield players) ? Should I put him beside a winger( so he can move into space which the winger creates by dragging defenders to sideline ) or should he be around a inside forward?

He can play a number of creative and/or technically demanding roles, so it really depends on how others around him are set up and what exactly you want to achieve (both in terms of playing style and from him personally as a player). 

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Yah agree with the OP. Getting a result away from home to a big team is a mammoth task. I just try to keep the score down, 1-0 or 2-0 away losses I see as victories. Although I do usually play as teams from the Championship so I half expect it.

What I find odd and slightly annoying is how unbelievably **** and lacking composure your players become in these games. They get the ball and literally either freeze (stand on the ball and then wait to get tackled) or boot it out of play, it's really, really weird. I wish I could upload all the instances of this happening.  Any sort of composure goes out the window.

The way its gone for me is if I play an  ultra defensive/bus parking tactics I'll lose 2/3-0 but Ill have basically no attacks. If I try something in the middle or attacking I am more of a threat but I lose 5/6-0. The other thing is they tend to absolutely rip into you in the first half so my last idea was to park bus first half and then second half go for it more. Ended up losing 2-0 away to Chelsea but did miss a pen.

I also tried this thing where I had 5 players at the back and 5 in the defensive mid positions in the Chelsea game and they could not get through at all and resorted to long shots. And it was only 1-0 half time but the goal was completely absurd, they crossed the ball into the box and I had 7 players in the box they had one, and of course the Chelsea striker won the header and scored, it was completely ludicrous. 

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39 minutes ago, iownyou said:

Yah agree with the OP. Getting a result away from home to a big team is a mammoth task. I just try to keep the score down, 1-0 or 2-0 away losses I see as victories. Although I do usually play as teams from the Championship so I half expect it.

What I find odd and slightly annoying is how unbelievably **** and lacking composure your players become in these games. They get the ball and literally either freeze (stand on the ball and then wait to get tackled) or boot it out of play, it's really, really weird. I wish I could upload all the instances of this happening.  Any sort of composure goes out the window.

The way its gone for me is if I play an  ultra defensive/bus parking tactics I'll lose 2/3-0 but Ill have basically no attacks. If I try something in the middle or attacking I am more of a threat but I lose 5/6-0. The other thing is they tend to absolutely rip into you in the first half so my last idea was to park bus first half and then second half go for it more. Ended up losing 2-0 away to Chelsea but did miss a pen.

I also tried this thing where I had 5 players at the back and 5 in the defensive mid positions in the Chelsea game and they could not get through at all and resorted to long shots. And it was only 1-0 half time but the goal was completely absurd, they crossed the ball into the box and I had 7 players in the box they had one, and of course the Chelsea striker won the header and scored, it was completely ludicrous. 

Yeah im noticing this too. If you play deeper defensivly, they will get their goal with crossing in or set pieces, if you go a bit more attacking/pressing you will get smashed in the transition, their counter as you will leave to much space they can profit from. I dont know what is really and it is not fun at all. Im a big club but winning away is a nightmare. Home games totally different, winning easy or sometimes hard as the opponent play park the bus style. Last game away vs barca, CL final, it is away still lol and got smashed 6-1. But there is more, sadly. 

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2 hours ago, iownyou said:

Yah agree with the OP. Getting a result away from home to a big team is a mammoth task. I just try to keep the score down, 1-0 or 2-0 away losses I see as victories. Although I do usually play as teams from the Championship so I half expect it.

What I find odd and slightly annoying is how unbelievably **** and lacking composure your players become in these games. They get the ball and literally either freeze (stand on the ball and then wait to get tackled) or boot it out of play, it's really, really weird. I wish I could upload all the instances of this happening.  Any sort of composure goes out the window.

The way its gone for me is if I play an  ultra defensive/bus parking tactics I'll lose 2/3-0 but Ill have basically no attacks. If I try something in the middle or attacking I am more of a threat but I lose 5/6-0. The other thing is they tend to absolutely rip into you in the first half so my last idea was to park bus first half and then second half go for it more. Ended up losing 2-0 away to Chelsea but did miss a pen.

I also tried this thing where I had 5 players at the back and 5 in the defensive mid positions in the Chelsea game and they could not get through at all and resorted to long shots. And it was only 1-0 half time but the goal was completely absurd, they crossed the ball into the box and I had 7 players in the box they had one, and of course the Chelsea striker won the header and scored, it was completely ludicrous. 

Yeah...match engine seems to be working on a "credit" system...If one team outshoots another by a good margin ( no matter the quality of shots),they will get a goal from set piece.So tactic that absorbs heavy pressure can't do well because they WILL concede from set piece.A point to be noted is that this works both ways...I have also got goals against AI just by applying heavy pressure and having no real chances...

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On 08/04/2020 at 08:34, mister.cool40 said:

This is the system I use in home....however in away matches I change a lot...I have 2 other tactics which consists of all other OI and different mentality + tempo+ passing settings so whenever I change something I retain familiarity (at least that's the idea)....I change shouts,roles,duties... sometimes I mirror the system...sometimes the wing backs get suck into the press...so I change into a full back role etc

 

I only face problem against likes of Man City,Chelsea and Liverpool when they start pressing....

I love the idea of the using complete or deep lying forwards however they always seem isolated...i tried a false nine role and  bought Lautaro Martinez especially for this role hold up play but still struggled to build up good passing combination against the press vs big teams.Then I ended up using him as an advanced forward....which is surprisingly quite effective as the advanced forward  extremely useful as a constant goal threat for crosses or long ball. He scored 35 goals in 37 games in PL last season.

@llama3 @Rashidi Thanks guys for replying....all my FM knowledge basically comes from you guys as I spent countless hours reading posts,threads replies,videos in the forum or youtube.It is nice to finally able to talk directly.

Screenshot (259).png

Just off the top of my head

 

Focus Instruction - increases mentality of your FB/WBs is it necessary? WB is an aggressive role and its behind the CM(A). So does the CM(A) have the necessary mentals and technicals to help defend?
AP(A) will run with ball and sometimes inside, and he is playing alongside the IF who could occupy same space, can work if you are playing wide and want to open up the right flank for overlap. AP will also see average to poor ratings in some games may even run out of turf as the centre gets crowded out. Will he be able to protect the flanks? As a playmaker he may slow the game down looking for others to play into, but his choices are always going to be simple ones like an AF running forward and only a good target if there is space with an OTT ball and a winger. Does he have the ability to play those kind of passes? Note my assessment is based on the need to have a system that hits really good sides hard on the counter. IT may very well work against weak teams because of the current aggression, but may fall short against good sides.

Left flank is already very attacking yet the focus will make it worse, so it becomes your vulnerable flank.
Plus you went urgent with pressing, so the backline is going to rush about and so will the middle.

Against good sides it will get torn apart.

Remove Focus, maybe CM(S) instead or wide Carrilero, have the CM(A) on the other side, remove AP(A) - middle looks like CM(S)/CM(A) or Car/CM(A)
Remove Urgent pressing
Add More disciplined
Player Wider - provided your playmakers have good passing range
Move BPD to the left cos your attack duties are on the left not on the right, BPDs more likely to do one over the top than a cross diagonal.



 

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1 hour ago, mister.cool40 said:

Yeah...match engine seems to be working on a "credit" system...If one team outshoots another by a good margin ( no matter the quality of shots),they will get a goal from set piece.So tactic that absorbs heavy pressure can't do well because they WILL concede from set piece.A point to be noted is that this works both ways...I have also got goals against AI just by applying heavy pressure and having no real chances...

No such thing as a credit system, it works on a simple system, if your tactic is good enough it will score from a variety of sources including set pieces. Sometimes an event may occur like an injury or bad form that could throw things out of whack. You need to spot these and sometimes I even make changes inside 20 mins because I can see something is off with a player.

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Wow, this thread is my saviour...I thought it was just me and my approach.

I'm currently running a save with Man City, 1st season. Naturally, doing well but then come up against the likes of Chelsea and especially LIVERPOOL away and I cannot find any way atm to even sneak draws. 

I've read loads from lots of threads before posting here, so implemented lots of the advice. It feels like no matter what, I am not competitive with the big teams away from home - or it's overly complicated to even be competitive.

Great thread, I'll post if/when I get any success.

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On 10/04/2020 at 01:12, mister.cool40 said:

Yeah...match engine seems to be working on a "credit" system...If one team outshoots another by a good margin ( no matter the quality of shots),they will get a goal from set piece.So tactic that absorbs heavy pressure can't do well because they WILL concede from set piece.A point to be noted is that this works both ways...I have also got goals against AI just by applying heavy pressure and having no real chances...

Haha, since this message. It’s happened three times to me. Went with the bus park and bang set piece 1-0.

ive played united away three times in this game and been 5-0 5-0 and 4-0 down at half time with a different type of tactic in each game. 

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On 07/04/2020 at 16:46, llama3 said:

It's hard to give advice without seeing what it should be based on. Just try posting your standard system and we can try and give some advice based on that. I read a good article a few weeks ago, regarding using your 3 x trained tactics, using slightly tweaked versions as plan A, B & C. For reference, this season so far (3rd season as Arsenal), my results against big sides this season are (my result first):

N Chelsea 1-0
A Chelsea 1-0
A Dortmund 1-1
H Spurs 1-0
H Man Utd 0-1 (league cup, I played a weakened side, United played a full side)
H Dortmund 2-0
A Man City 1-0
A Man Utd 0-0
H Liverpool 1-0
A Spurs 1-0

Basically my approach is still to continue my control possession style, but I tweak system (such as a 4-2-3-1 moving into a 4-4-1-1) etc., or occasional tweak of mentality slightly just to control overall risk aversion. I've been a bit lucky in some respects, but overall, I'm controlling the pace of the game, prepare well for each match.

This is very unrealistic. conceding 1 goal against the biggest sides. Just can't see it happening. FM vet of 20 years and played all sorts of tactics and styles. This is an exception to the rule. Winning away from home is very hard in FM20 against bigger teams. Liverpool for example, will score 2-3 goals at home against most setups. Agree with OP. Defensive tactics against bigger teams away are underpowered.

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58 minutes ago, J8mb0 said:

This is very unrealistic. conceding 1 goal against the biggest sides. Just can't see it happening. FM vet of 20 years and played all sorts of tactics and styles. This is an exception to the rule. Winning away from home is very hard in FM20 against bigger teams. Liverpool for example, will score 2-3 goals at home against most setups. Agree with OP. Defensive tactics against bigger teams away are underpowered.

sometimes u need to find a balanced way of doing things though ultimately it is a risk and balance game. for example, if u allow liverpool to throw numbers forward with a team that is not good defensively u cannot expect ur team to not concede. sometimes it is better to attack them back if u have the players to do so to pin them back. do not just resort to playing defensively if ur team is not build to do so. currently i am on a save where i have a lot of attacking players but not good enough to challenge the top teams in the league so i decided to use possession as a defensive weapon to keep as much of the ball as possible while inviting the opposition to press me. when they are tired during the later stages of the game i will go a bit risky but still try to keep the ball as much as possible. so far the tactic has worked wonders for me allowing me to overachieve in all competitions. on the opposite end, i also play counter attacking tactics when i have a suitable team with players that have good defensive attributes and have managed to FMed the AI a few times. of course playing away is tough itself but it is doable against top teams. u just have to get the best out of your players and work on ur set pieces and pray for the best.

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On 14/04/2020 at 12:36, J8mb0 said:

This is very unrealistic. conceding 1 goal against the biggest sides. Just can't see it happening. FM vet of 20 years and played all sorts of tactics and styles. This is an exception to the rule. Winning away from home is very hard in FM20 against bigger teams. Liverpool for example, will score 2-3 goals at home against most setups. Agree with OP. Defensive tactics against bigger teams away are underpowered.

I don't exactly expect to do that every season - but the approach is what is important. It's cohesive within my usual style, just tweaked to be more sensible.

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