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Nikola75

Which match data / stats to look at, to find why tactic doesn't work

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What? Should these changes have such effect? Or was that a coincidence

They obviously had an effect. They will probably not going to have the same effect against a different type of opposition, because there is no universal recipe. That's why it's important for people to watch their matches and see if they need to make small tweaks or not, and what kind of tweaks these should be. 

I have started a discussion regarding problems in my 4231 tactics, where @Experienced Defender made this point. I think it is one of the most important parts of the game, but I think I don't understand it well enough, keeping me in the dark and sometimes making some random changes on the tactic when things start going bad. 

 

So, I wanted to hear about how you people go on with this. 

  • Watching the match. Ideally, we would play one game in every few days and watch it in real-time (in 2D). This would be the ultimate FM experience, but then we are losing part of developing players etc. So, how do you do this? Even if I watch the game on "Comprehensive highlights", I am only seeing my attacks which do go through and create some chances. It is difficult to see what goes wrong, if you are only seeing what goes right. With defense, it is easier, you are analyzing where your defenders made a mistake, so I think defensive part is easier to tweak. How do you do this?
  • Team match stats. I look at shots (on target, long shots, how many clear cut and half changes I am creating). With this, I can switch to "work ball into box", for example. Or, if my defense pass % is too low, I will tell them to pass short and goalkeeper to pass do DCs/FBs. Fouls, yellow cards - can  I afford more aggressive approach (hard tacking, get stuck in)? I also follow crosses completed, but this is tricky. I can even have 25-30% successful crosses, but usually most of them are just headed over the bar, even with strong and tall striker. 
  • Player match stats. I rarely look at this. What should I look? Number of offsides - if it is too high, make player more defensive? Shots, passes? How do you react to some of these info?
  • Season team stats (Team Report - Stats). I am not using this. Should I? Compare it to other teams maybe? One thing I do is tweak offensive and defensive free kicks / corners instructions, if I see I am not doing too well compared to other teams. 

What do you especially look at, when you look at opposition scout report before the match? 

There are probably different approaches, so it would be interesting to hear them, some remarks regarding tactics can be eye-opening and make the game completely different. 

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45 minutes ago, Nikola75 said:

Watching the match. Ideally, we would play one game in every few days and watch it in real-time (in 2D). This would be the ultimate FM experience, but then we are losing part of developing players etc. So, how do you do this? Even if I watch the game on "Comprehensive highlights", I am only seeing my attacks which do go through and create some chances. It is difficult to see what goes wrong, if you are only seeing what goes right. With defense, it is easier, you are analyzing where your defenders made a mistake, so I think defensive part is easier to tweak. How do you do this?

If you are a tactical beginner or have created a new tactic you need to test, it's advisable to watch the first 10-15 minutes of both halves in the full mode and then switch to the Comprehensive if you are pleased with what you've seen during these first 15 minutes. You can pause the match at any point to see where each of your players is in different phases of play and whether the movement of your players makes sense in any of these phases. That helps a lot (at least it helps me). 

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Does a player have low bravery, hard tackle him and see him wilt

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2 hours ago, Kharza_FM said:

Are we not closing their midfielders down fast enough and they have time to pick out a pass?

  1. Raise the Line of Engagement

 

Do you have one like this for when you're closing down fast enough but your players are getting skinned?

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Just now, koimes said:

Do you have one like this for when you're closing down fast enough but your players are getting skinned?

My boys all have high aggression and bravery... they don't get skinned... they get colorful cards!

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1 hour ago, Rashidi said:

Does a player have low bravery, hard tackle him and see him wilt

There was a post from a guy who explain how to set opposition instruction that was very good I dont remember the name now xD

 

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26 minutes ago, Vinay17 said:

There was a post from a guy who explain how to set opposition instruction that was very good I dont remember the name now xD

 

This could be very interesting! I see a lot of guys particularly on YouTube that study the opposition report and set some Oi's that are very useful in game. But I don't know the values to look for, i'm a very beginner player and i'm trying  to have a more depth experience

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4 hours ago, Kharza_FM said:

I keep adding and removing to the list as I refine my tactic.  I used to do some things like manual man marking because I had issues on the flanks with overlapping fullbacks/wingbacks that were on attack but I've since solved that issue a little better.  Hope that helps!

When I have this problem, I also go with man marking with my wingers, I understand that is what you were doing, but now have smarter solution? What is it?

These are great thoughts for during the match, @Kharza_FM, I did not think of half of them. Do you have similar list when observing long-term situations, stats? Or do you just take it from here...

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23 minutes ago, Nikola75 said:

When I have this problem, I also go with man marking with my wingers, I understand that is what you were doing, but now have smarter solution? What is it?

These are great thoughts for during the match, @Kharza_FM, I did not think of half of them. Do you have similar list when observing long-term situations, stats? Or do you just take it from here...

I do I have a couple avenues I look at for longer term analysis.  One of my main "dashboards" is for this view:

ScreenClip.thumb.png.652292d93a5890fc9410e734d5d63268.png

I use this view to analyze each of my players and in this case it's for attackers.  I have a similar one to analyze for defenders as well.  I use this to evaluate how they are playing throughout the season and it helps me identify players to play in specific positions.  Now this does map to my team DNA a bit so I care about things like Dribbles per 90.  Club DNA is high press, vertical possession, and Brazilian swagger.  I literally identify and train up a player whose job is to 1v1 dribble (what you see nicknamed as "Dribbler").  High Balance, Agility, Dribbling, First Touch, Flair, Acceleration.. designed to break down defenses.  I was playing in Italy 3rd tier against some of the worst park the entire team in the friggin box and found that having a dribbler to break them down was key to create even small chances or earning penalties.  Beyond that I use Key Passes in games a ton to make sure I'm starting moves from the areas that I planned with my tactic. 

ScreenClip.thumb.png.c8d848694d235191741f8a2111b98003.png

So here was an interesting analysis... When you look at just the # of key passes you are thinking hey that's sweet I had 15 key passes this game.. the problem is where those key passes went to.  The key passes are yellow and from that area I'd expect to see crosses to someone in the box so I added "Cross - Completed" and that is green.  Notice that none of the crosses completed where in around areas where the "key pass" went to.  Thing that make you go hmm.... and start tinkering.  Beyond that it is just the normal player development against my Club DNA that I do which isn't rocket science but is key to making your tactical system click.  I like to have at least 2 systems and always have a single striker and 2 striker system.  Right now I have a 4-1-4-1 Wide DM (433) and a 4312 (i.e. 442 narrow diamond) as my main go to tactics.  Depending on match ups and at times player availability I'll choose between those 2.

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12 hours ago, koimes said:

Do you have one like this for when you're closing down fast enough but your players are getting skinned?

If they're getting skinned, pressing IS the problem. If your players are not good enough to press effectively, or the opposition is good enough to beat that press regularly, your players will end up getting caught out of position. To combat that, make them less aggressive. That is, either lower your mentality, pressing instructions or/and tackling instructions.

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On 21/03/2020 at 19:36, Kharza_FM said:

I do I have a couple avenues I look at for longer term analysis.  One of my main "dashboards" is for this view:

ScreenClip.thumb.png.652292d93a5890fc9410e734d5d63268.png

I use this view to analyze each of my players and in this case it's for attackers.  I have a similar one to analyze for defenders as well.  I use this to evaluate how they are playing throughout the season and it helps me identify players to play in specific positions.  Now this does map to my team DNA a bit so I care about things like Dribbles per 90.  Club DNA is high press, vertical possession, and Brazilian swagger.  I literally identify and train up a player whose job is to 1v1 dribble (what you see nicknamed as "Dribbler").  High Balance, Agility, Dribbling, First Touch, Flair, Acceleration.. designed to break down defenses.  I was playing in Italy 3rd tier against some of the worst park the entire team in the friggin box and found that having a dribbler to break them down was key to create even small chances or earning penalties.  Beyond that I use Key Passes in games a ton to make sure I'm starting moves from the areas that I planned with my tactic. 

ScreenClip.thumb.png.c8d848694d235191741f8a2111b98003.png

So here was an interesting analysis... When you look at just the # of key passes you are thinking hey that's sweet I had 15 key passes this game.. the problem is where those key passes went to.  The key passes are yellow and from that area I'd expect to see crosses to someone in the box so I added "Cross - Completed" and that is green.  Notice that none of the crosses completed where in around areas where the "key pass" went to.  Thing that make you go hmm.... and start tinkering.  Beyond that it is just the normal player development against my Club DNA that I do which isn't rocket science but is key to making your tactical system click.  I like to have at least 2 systems and always have a single striker and 2 striker system.  Right now I have a 4-1-4-1 Wide DM (433) and a 4312 (i.e. 442 narrow diamond) as my main go to tactics.  Depending on match ups and at times player availability I'll choose between those 2.

Good stuff, that how we should develop a tactic, congratulations

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On 21/03/2020 at 17:56, Kharza_FM said:

I used to do some things like manual man marking because I had issues on the flanks with overlapping fullbacks/wingbacks that were on attack but I've since solved that issue a little better.  Hope that helps!

@Kharza_FM, you've mentioned this last week. I have the same problem and the only way to solve it seems to pull my wingers back and/or get them to man mark the opposition wingback. 

I understand that you have a smarter solution for this? :)

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Posted (edited)
8 minutes ago, Nikola75 said:

@Kharza_FM, you've mentioned this last week. I have the same problem and the only way to solve it seems to pull my wingers back and/or get them to man mark the opposition wingback. 

I understand that you have a smarter solution for this? :)

Yep..

  1. You are even numbered on the wings.. meaning you have a FB + AMR/MR/AML/ML against their wing and fullback
    1. Add Opposition instructions to the opposing team LB/RB for tighter marking and closing down
    2. Add Mark Tighter PI to AMR/MR/AML/ML
  2. You are outnumbered on the wings.. meaning you only have a FB and maybe CM against their wing and fullback
    1. Add Opposition instructions to opposing team LB/RB for closing down
    2. Make sure the CM has close down more PI

Drastically reduces the issue on the wings and lets you do it without having to man mark and pull your defensive shape apart.  The only situation this still has issues with is a VERY attacking fullback with some serious pace.. that is still when I go back to the manual man marking.

Edited by Kharza_FM

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4 minutes ago, Kharza_FM said:
  1. You are even numbered on the wings.. meaning you have a FB + AMR/MR/AML/ML against their wing and fullback
    1. Add Opposition instructions to the opposing team LB/RB for tighter marking and closing down
    2. Add Mark Tighter PI to AMR/MR/AML/ML

Drastically reduces the issue on the wings and lets you do it without having to man mark and pull your defensive shape apart.  The only situation this still has issues with is a VERY attacking fullback with some serious pace.. that is still when I go back to the manual man marking.

I get it, so instead of man marking, adjust opposition instructions. I do closing down sometimes, if I know before the match they are attacking via offensive FB/WBs. 
I did not ever use tight marking on FB/WBs, I was thinking this would stretch my shape as well. What I also don't ever do is tighter marking on players with high acceleration and high dribbling attributes. Am I doing this wrong way? 

I will try with player instructions as well. I presume it also depends on the player attributes, his playing style, how eager he is to close down and defend etc.

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7 minutes ago, Nikola75 said:

I get it, so instead of man marking, adjust opposition instructions. I do closing down sometimes, if I know before the match they are attacking via offensive FB/WBs. 
I did not ever use tight marking on FB/WBs, I was thinking this would stretch my shape as well. What I also don't ever do is tighter marking on players with high acceleration and high dribbling attributes. Am I doing this wrong way? 

I will try with player instructions as well. I presume it also depends on the player attributes, his playing style, how eager he is to close down and defend etc.

I always do tighter marking on those players what I don't do is close them down as fast.. the idea is if the player has better anticipation they can jump the pass and are in a better position to stop the ball from getting to that player at all and if they aren't in position the last thing you want them doing is trying to close down and getting taken out of the play.  But in general yes you are correct around attributes.. work rate goes a long way for AMR/AML players especially.  Positioning is often overlooked as well.  Sometimes a 3-4 month positional training at defensive winger can help.

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I've been looking through Youtube tips for FM2020. Well, most of them are focused on "wonderkids", but there is still some nice content. 

This is 10-minute video about analysing a tactic, which in part answers to the question I set. It speaks about using tactics and analysis to fix parts of the tactics:

 

 

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Man, I am giving away upvotes like candy in this thread. Great stuff.

I have another tip from Rashidi - your DL is too high, if your defenders have to turn around and run back to get the high ball over your defence. Ideal DL height is when your defenders keep their eyes on the ball and walk backwards before heading the ball away.

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