Jump to content
Sports Interactive Community
Nikola75

Unable to recognize tactical problems - help needed Bologna 4-1-2-3

Recommended Posts

Hi, I am playing FM for years and am occasionally successful. In FM19, I won my first CL, with Valencia, huge success. I also won Serbian League twice in a row with Partizan in FM20, but had very strong team. 

I am not able to get anywhere this year with Bologna.Third season, after being 13th and 11th in first two seasons. Not that I am expecting CL, but I want improvement, I have talented your players and occasionally I am able to play nice football> However, there are frustrating games against poor teams where I am struggling and maybe get a draw at the end or am losing even with higher number of shots and being much better side in the field.

Also, I am constantly losing to big teams (might be normal, but I should be able to salvage draw here and there). I have tried playing more defensively than bellow, with DM instead of AMC, but results are even worse, when playing more defensive, I am being outshot like 25-4.

results.thumb.jpg.94470239870ec93c2b3067332c314948.jpg

I have noticed there are number of people prepared to help poor souls like myself - thanks in advance. Here is the tactics I use for most games:

tactics1.thumb.jpg.61a8759b84c4ce6d332c6a61445b9d89.jpg

tactics2.jpg

tactics3.jpg

tactics4.jpg

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The 4231 is a tricky system due to its top-heavy configuration. If you want to use the 4231 formation, the first thing you need to do is make sure is that both CMs are defensively reliable players (regardless of the roles they play).

Your left flank looks very vulnerable defensively, with all 3 roles being fairly attack-minded (WBsu, mezzala and attacking winger). Such a setup would probably be too risky even for a top team, let alone Bologna.

On the other hand, the right side of your setup is very well balanced (attacking FB, DLP and IF on support) :thup:

Before any further discussion on your tactic, I have to ask you a couple of questions:

1. Would you consider switching to a more balanced formation (e.g. 4411 or 4123 wide) or you insist specifically on the 4231?

2. What's the reasoning behind the stay on feet instruction?

3. What style of play do you want to play (and are your players suitable/good enough for that particular style)? 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Good answer, thank you. 

Left side
I was playing with the DLP on the left for long time and mezzala on the right, but switched as I understood mezz is usually using same space as my right IF. I get what you are saying. Would you say employing BBM instead of mezz would help? 

Switching formation
Yes, I understand this is not ideal formation for Bologna, but I was trying to accomodate it to the type of players I have. I am strong on attacking minded wingers, both in first team and with talented subs. I am not sure how they would work as more defensive wingers in 4411, all are uneasy playing in more defensive roles. You are right that I do have problems vs teams with strong attacking wing-backs. In that case, I try to close them via opposition instructions, sometimes even setting my wingers to mark specific player. Otherwise, my full backs are dragged out. 

4123 wide - I do switch to this formation when playing stronger teams. I am playing with anchor in the back and it helps defensively, but usually this also means I stop producing any chances. It happens that I am pushed on my half (it could be both due to the tactics and due to playing stronger opponent), not creating chances. I also have two talented AMCs, so I do look to play more attacking variant whenever possible (ie against same or weaker sides). 

Stay on feet
I was not sure about this one. For two seasons I played with Get stuck in, then switched to Stay on feet. Logic behind it was that I noticed I can cut some attacks and immediately launch a counter-attack. This happened few times on the wings, with wingers taking the ball and running at the weaker defense. It doesn't happen frequently that they score, I think there is a problem with counter-attack logic in the game, they should be scoring more in situations like these, but it produces some chances.

Style of play
I was trying to build counter-attacking side, sitting back (cautious style) and using direct passing, pass into space. I have good wingers, it should have worked. It didn't, I was just being pushed to the back and waiting for the slow death. It might be I should try longer and change some things. My typical two games happened yesterday - both away games, first one vs Verona. 24 shots + 16 corners vs Verona 8 shots on the goal. It looked ok, but most situations finished with crosses from my wings and poor header in the finish. It ended 0-0. I switched to "Work ball into box" vs Atalanta, and managed to win 1-0, but only via penalty in 88th min, again being dominating side. 

What do you think I should analyse in stats? I am not scoring much (if any) from corners which I have plenty, I am trying to change some instructions there. 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, Nikola75 said:

was playing with the DLP on the left for long time and mezzala on the right, but switched as I understood mezz is usually using same space as my right IF

That also was not a good combination, but not primarily because of the mezzala/IF combo. Rather because of this:

AF

Wat        APat        IFsu

DLPde  MEZsu

WBsu  CD  BPD   FBat

Note the 2 roles I highlighted in red - the mezzala and attacking fullback. In this setup your right flank was even more vulnerable defensively than the left flank is in the other one. Because when you have an attacking or otherwise attack-minded FB/WB, you need a more conservative midfielder on his side to provide defensive cover. That's the point.

Let me give you an example to help you understand what exactly I mean:

AF

Wat           APat         IFsu

MEZsu    DLPde

IWBde/FBsu   CD  CD   FBat

This example is in case you insist on using the mezzala role (which is not always a good idea in a 4231, but okay).

And here is an example without a mezzala:

AF

Wat         APat         IFsu

CAR   DLPde

WBsu    CD    CD    FBat

Compare these 2 examples and note the difference. I hope you now understand what I meant.

Also keep in mind that you use a top-heavy formation without a DM, which requires a different (i.e. more sensitive) approach than if you played in a more balanced formation.

3 hours ago, Nikola75 said:

Would you say employing BBM instead of mezz would help?

BBM would definitely be safer defense-wise than mezzala, but still not optimal. Simply because the BBM - while a more conservative role than MEZ - is still not a covering or holding type of role. So a lot would depend on the type of player you play as the BBM (how reliable he is in terms of defense-related attributes + stamina, work rate, teamwork, speed, determination...). 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I understand yes. It makes sense, but sometimes it is difficult to notice these things during highlights. I should probably watch few games in real-time.

I will try changing these and will post an update here with results, maybe it helps someone else. Do you think some instructions should be changed as well? You were mentioning Stay on feet instructions? Having your comments in mind, I am also thinking if counter-press is good option.

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, Nikola75 said:

Yes, I understand this is not ideal formation for Bologna, but I was trying to accomodate it to the type of players I have. I am strong on attacking minded wingers, both in first team and with talented subs. I am not sure how they would work as more defensive wingers in 4411, all are uneasy playing in more defensive roles

If you fear they would struggle in a 4411, you can go with a 4141dm wide (a.k.a. 4123). They would still be played in wide forward positions (AML/R), but the formation is better balanced than 4231 and thus offers more options and room for maneuver when it comes to the setup of roles and duties. 

 

3 hours ago, Nikola75 said:

4123 wide - I do switch to this formation when playing stronger teams. I am playing with anchor in the back and it helps defensively, but usually this also means I stop producing any chances. It happens that I am pushed on my half (it could be both due to the tactics and due to playing stronger opponent), not creating chances. I also have two talented AMCs, so I do look to play more attacking variant whenever possible (ie against same or weaker sides)

Can you post a screenshot of that 4123 tactic you occasionally use? And can your 2 talented AMCs play in central midfield or not? You can also post their screenshots btw. 

 

3 hours ago, Nikola75 said:

Stay on feet
I was not sure about this one. For two seasons I played with Get stuck in, then switched to Stay on feet. Logic behind it was that I noticed I can cut some attacks and immediately launch a counter-attack

When did they cut attacks and launched counters - with the stay on feet or with get stuck in?

Anyway, I personally think that you do not need to use either instruction in your current setup (considering the rest of your tactic). Simply leave them both unselected. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, Nikola75 said:

Style of play
I was trying to build counter-attacking side, sitting back (cautious style) and using direct passing, pass into space. I have good wingers, it should have worked. It didn't, I was just being pushed to the back and waiting for the slow death. It might be I should try longer and change some things

Well, there are 2 things here:

1. 4231 as a system is not ideally suited for a counter-attacking style (it can work, but is tricky and requires a certain type of players)

2. your tactic itself is not a real counter-attacking one (although it has some elements).

Would you like me to give you an example of how a counter-attacking 4231 tactic can be set up?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
11 minutes ago, Nikola75 said:

Do you think some instructions should be changed as well? You were mentioning Stay on feet instructions?

I have already touched upon the Stay on feet (and get stuck in) in the meantime (see one of my posts above). 

 

13 minutes ago, Nikola75 said:

Having your comments in mind, I am also thinking if counter-press is good option

Counter-press is always a potentially risky options, and it can sometimes be risky even for top teams. So better think twice before you employ it :brock:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

You are very helpful, thank you. This is mine other, more defensive tactic. This is the one I am trying to make more counter-attacking, but it does not work as I hoped. I watched Bologna destroying Roma at Olimpico couple of months ago using space, and wanted to play like that versus big teams, took the save because of that. My thinking behind it is: 

  • line of engagement and defensive line lower, waiting for the opponent to come and make a space behind. Cautious approach, not pressing too much, waiting for them
  • Pass into space, standard passing (might be direct?), tempo slightly higher, not waiting to set up the attack
  • narrow width, I hoped left winger gets more space this way. DLP has take more risks, more direct passing etc, hopefully to find people upfront. BPD is also there

fm1.thumb.jpg.85ae9997019e02984370a984b94769bf.jpg

The first tactic above (with AMC instead of DMC) is the one where I want to control the game and I can successfully do it versus standard and weaker sides. Not scoring easily, though, actually its quite difficult. Well, I scored 15 in 13 games so far this season. 

Here are my two future stars (or big money-makers in a transfer) which are playing on AMC position. Almada is usual suspect, my favourite from FM19 and my CL win with Valencia. 

fm2.thumb.jpg.5c6e1da6eb37ffd8aa3e0066a4e6901d.jpg  fm3.thumb.jpg.fe365a84348f1d5420efaaf2fceb4765.jpg

I am also playing this Argentinian as DLP, I think it would be too much to pair two creative types on MC positions?

fm4.thumb.jpg.a718c1e989a67e845050aa7dcf4092fb.jpg

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 minutes ago, Nikola75 said:

fm1.thumb.jpg.85ae9997019e02984370a984b94769bf.jpg

 

3 minutes ago, Nikola75 said:

This is mine other, more defensive tactic. This is the one I am trying to make more counter-attacking, but it does not work as I hoped

The problem here is again a bad tactical balance, both in terms of roles and duties and the overall tactic.

First, a low-risk mentality (such as cautious) does not make you defensively solid. And you also do not have to use a low mentality to play a defensive or counter-attacking football. The most effective counter-attacking tactics are actually designed under the Positive mentality. But I personally would recommend you go with the Balanced (at least initially). 

9 minutes ago, Nikola75 said:

My thinking behind it is: 

  • line of engagement and defensive line lower, waiting for the opponent to come and make a space behind. Cautious approach, not pressing too much, waiting for them

Lower LOE - yes. But defensive line does not need to be lower. You need optimal compactness, so the best combination would be - standard (default) D-line and lower LOE. Other out-of-possession instruction depend on the team mentality you use, because the mentality automatically affects all other instructions. That's something you always need to keep in mind. 

 

12 minutes ago, Nikola75 said:

Pass into space, standard passing (might be direct?), tempo slightly higher, not waiting to set up the attack

Pass into space makes sense in a counter-oriented tactic, although it's the type of instruction I rather use situationally. The other instructions you mentioned depend (again) on the team mentality you use. 

 

14 minutes ago, Nikola75 said:

narrow width, I hoped left winger gets more space this way

Width is also affected by the mentality, like all other things, so it depends. I personally prefer to start with the default width, and then I can tweak it during a match if needed. 

I'll come back later to comment on the rest of your post :thup:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, Experienced Defender said:

First, a low-risk mentality (such as cautious) does not make you defensively solid. And you also do not have to use a low mentality to play a defensive or counter-attacking football. The most effective counter-attacking tactics are actually designed under the Positive mentality. But I personally would recommend you go with the Balanced (at least initially). 

Hm, yes, now I remember I read it somewhere, but this still does not make sense.

4 minutes ago, Experienced Defender said:

Lower LOE - yes. But defensive line does not need to be lower. You need optimal compactness, so the best combination would be - standard (default) D-line and lower LOE. Other out-of-possession instruction depend on the team mentality you use, because the mentality automatically affects all other instructions. That's something you always need to keep in mind. 

Pass into space makes sense in a counter-oriented tactic, although it's the type of instruction I rather use situationally. The other instructions you mentioned depend (again) on the team mentality you use. 

Width is also affected by the mentality, like all other things, so it depends. I personally prefer to start with the default width, and then I can tweak it during a match if needed. 

And here things get complicated :) That is the problem with tactics in FM - the part I like the most, but which makes little sense. Change one thing, everything stays the same on the pitch. Change more, something works, you don't know what, as they were affected by other changes.

Your explanations help of course and do make sense, but should not we be able to see it from the match? As if I watch the game, I know what should be changed, but it is so difficult actually to change it via offered options. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Nikola75 said:

Hm, yes, now I remember I read it somewhere, but this still does not make sense.

And here things get complicated :) That is the problem with tactics in FM - the part I like the most, but which makes little sense. Change one thing, everything stays the same on the pitch. Change more, something works, you don't know what, as they were affected by other changes.

Your explanations help of course and do make sense, but should not we be able to see it from the match? As if I watch the game, I know what should be changed, but it is so difficult actually to change it via offered options. 

The easiest way to overcome these problems is to set up roles and duties in a well-balanced manner and play on the Balanced mentality with only those instructions that basically define your style of play or even no instructions at all. When you set up the tactic in that way, it's a lot easier to figure out which instructions you may need to add, remove or tweak than when you make a complex tactic with more instructions than necessary.

For example, let's say I want to play a counter-attacking football using the 4123 formation, but I am not sure about every single instruction I may need to use. What do I do?

First I set up roles and duties in as balanced and as simple a manner as possible (preferably without any "fancy"/"exotic" roles), making sure it's solid enough defensively but also providing sufficient support in attack. Like this:

PFat

Wsu                             IFsu

APat   BWMsu

Ade

FBsu    CDde  BPDde   FBat

SKde/su

Or like this:

DLFat

Wsu                                 IFsu

CMat    DLPsu

DMde

FBsu    BPDde   CDde   FBat

SKde/su

You can see that in both setups I use the same arrangement of attack duties, only the roles of the striker and attack-duty CM are different (one has a simple role, the other is a creator type).

Another important detail here is that both wide forwards (AML and AMR) are played on support duty. Why? Because I want to make sure my flanks are secure defensively at any point. And this is then "compensated" by having an attacking CM so that my attacks could still have enough penetration.

As I said before, I opt for the Balanced mentality, because it's the easiest to create a simple tactic and then make tweaks if needed.

Now come the instructions that just basically define my playing style (which in this case is counter-attacking). So here are the instructions I start with before I decide if I need to make any tweaks based on what I observe watching the match:

In possession - (slightly) higher tempo

In transition - nothing

Out of possession - lower LOE

As you can see, I started with only 2 instructions (and I even did not select the counter in transition, even though I want to play a counter-attacking style).

What are possible tweaks I may need to make if the above proves insufficient?

In possession, I may need to add pass into space. Or maybe hit early crosses. Maybe I even end up with both instructions used together. 

In transition, I may need to add the counter. Or maybe distribute to CBs and FBs. 

Out of possession, I may add the get stuck in (if I notice my players are too passive when defending). Alternatively, I may use the player instruction "tackle harder" for my more defensive-minded CM. Or apply the softer version of split block by asking the striker and the more attack-minded CM to close down more (via player instructions).

So the point is this - start simple and then make just small gradual tweaks until you get what you want. Never make any changes on a random basis. The same rule applies to the selection of players for the roles and duties. Make sure each player has the right attributes for the role you intend to play him in.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
20 hours ago, Experienced Defender said:

So the point is this - start simple and then make just small gradual tweaks until you get what you want. Never make any changes on a random basis. The same rule applies to the selection of players for the roles and duties. Make sure each player has the right attributes for the role you intend to play him in.

Fantastic post, worthy of its own thread. :thup:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Excellent explanation, @Experienced Defender. As @Zemahh said, it is a shame it will stay buried here inside my quite specific question. 

I have in the meantime listened to your first tips from above and made changes to my 4231 tactic. It is still a tactic with which I try to dominate, and I think I can achieve that with 50% of the teams in Serie A - have higher possession, move the ball to their half and try to organize good attacks. Usually, I end up with more shots than opposition, have more corners etc.

These are changes I made

  • more defensive left back
  • BBM instead of mezzala (I am lacking a player suitable for CM-Su or CAR, might try to bring one in the winter)
  • AP on support instead on attack duty
  • turned off counter-pressing
  • turned off both instructions for stay on feet / get stuck in

Well, the result after 2 games seems good, especially in defense. I have won both games 1-0 and opponents had much less dangerous shots (I also adjusted defending free kicks instructions) then before. So, your nick is correct!

I will keep tweaking defensive part of the setup, but the problem stays with the attack. In first game, I won via penalty in 89th min (after my right IF got into penalty box) and in second one in 86th min, via through ball from AP to left winger. I am having lots of problems in creating good chances, most of my shots are headers from set-pieces (usually over the bar) or headers from crosses (with same result). Some long shots (mostly blocked). 

Maybe I would need to switch AF to DLF, he would be closer to other players, I don't know. Problem here is that my strikers (and most in general) are adapted to AF role. Are you putting lot of thoughts into this, ie. what is the ideal position of the player, or do you take a look at attributes and play him "out of natural position" if you think he would be fine there?

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
49 minutes ago, Nikola75 said:

BBM instead of mezzala (I am lacking a player suitable for CM-Su or CAR, might try to bring one in the winter)

If a player has the right set of attributes for a BBM, then he should have no problem playing as a carrilero or CM on any duty. How do you know he is not suitable for CAR or CM - based on his attributes or the role suitability circle? 

 

54 minutes ago, Nikola75 said:

Well, the result after 2 games seems good, especially in defense. I have won both games 1-0 and opponents had much less dangerous shots (I also adjusted defending free kicks instructions) then before. So, your nick is correct!

I will keep tweaking defensive part of the setup, but the problem stays with the attack. In first game, I won via penalty in 89th min (after my right IF got into penalty box) and in second one in 86th min, via through ball from AP to left winger. I am having lots of problems in creating good chances, most of my shots are headers from set-pieces (usually over the bar) or headers from crosses (with same result). Some long shots (mostly blocked). 

Maybe I would need to switch AF to DLF, he would be closer to other players, I don't know

You would need to post a screenshot of that new tactic (after the tweaks you made), so that I could take a look directly at it and see what can be improved. Because otherwise any suggestions I may give you could well be misleading. 

 

57 minutes ago, Nikola75 said:

Problem here is that my strikers (and most in general) are adapted to AF role. Are you putting lot of thoughts into this, ie. what is the ideal position of the player, or do you take a look at attributes and play him "out of natural position" if you think he would be fine there?

You seem to be paying too much attention to the role suitability circle (i.e. what the game suggests as a player's "suitable" or "unsuitable" roles). But that's a mistake. Instead, you need to look primarily at his attributes and secondarily player traits to see if he would be a good choice for a certain role or not.

If you are not sure about that, you can also post screenshots of your strikers and I'll tell you in which roles each of them can be played.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Here is the new tactic, I have made it simpler, as you have suggested, with much less team instructions then before.

fm1.thumb.jpg.c1d0da3a2557e42bba3623ccffafb188.jpg

As you will see, there is Svanberg on the BBM position, he has fairly low suitability in the circle, and you are right, I am giving lot of attention to that. Here is the guy, I would like to have him play as one of the CMs as he will only get better, but his most suitable positions are MEZ (too offensive) and DLP (have the other player there)

1705827034_fmplayer6.thumb.jpg.78c6fc434ef6d47a54d68f267e6e5b59.jpg

This is DLP. I did notice that most of my players have lots of traits, but did not give lot of thought into that (except if he tries killer balls - I like that). This one has "arrives late in opponents' area", I hope this is not a problem for "holding CM", as you have called him? 

782033435_fmplayer5.thumb.jpg.33e0428d44fbb15e5a15c3ee1df645d1.jpg

My star is Orsolini, right IF, and Almada (AP) is the next star. What do you think of them? Orsolini has "knocks ball past opponents", should I unlearn him this, as he has great dribbling? Almada likes to move into channels, but I rarely see him doing that, I mean getting into penalty box to score - even if I give him specific player instruction for that. He scored 5 goals and had 8 assists in last season's 37 games. Ok, I guess for 19 year old, but not the engine of the team. Orsolini also had only 4 assists, but scored 9. 

565831002_fmplayer3.thumb.jpg.5994cad7c850d80c155fb0b8a6a60e87.jpg 2033833056_fmplayer4.thumb.jpg.9f271baa701da75af69139913c40e59d.jpg

And here are my attackers. I can see lot of people have problems with lonely strikers, so I guess this is the major issue and hardest thing to do well? I usually play them on AFa, which is their most suitable role.

675060961_fmplayer1.thumb.jpg.ec0d1b27ce3b3baa098878c1773daddd.jpg1727276145_fmplayer2.thumb.jpg.e4e369fc06df3a9e9346de7f35ca3073.jpg

 

Thanks a lot once again @Experienced Defender

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Nikola75 said:

fm1.thumb.jpg.c1d0da3a2557e42bba3623ccffafb188.jpg

 

1 hour ago, Nikola75 said:

Here is the new tactic, I have made it simpler, as you have suggested, with much less team instructions then before

Okay, I'll tell what I believe should be changed in your tactic.

First, you probably don't need 2 playmakers one behind the other (DLP and AP). Because it tends to overcomplicate the play. So retain one PM and replace the other with some non-playmaker role. For example, if you want to keep the DLP, then you can change the AP into a simple AM (maybe even on attack duty, but that would really depend both on the type of player and the overall quality of your team). In case you want to retain the AP, then the most logical option would be to change the DLP into a simple CM on defend duty.

Another problem is the probable lack of attacking support on the right flank. You need the right fullback in a more attack-minded role so that he would provide more support not just to the IF but also to the holding midfielder on that side (whether he remains the DLP or becomes CM on defend duty). So you can go either with a FB on attack duty or WB on support, as both roles can provide so-called natural overlaps.

On the other hand, the left side looks well-balanced and makes sense :thup:

When it comes to the striker's role, AF as a lone striker generally tends to struggle, albeit less so in counter-attacking than in control or possession-oriented tactics. Perhaps PF on attack duty would be a better option, especially as both your strikers from the screenshots - Schick and Mayoral - absolutely can play this role.

Having mentioned the strikers, I don't see why have you opted for low crosses? While your strikers are not slow, they are not particularly fast, either. And Schick is even fairly good in the air. I think that mixed crosses would be a more logical choice (as it allows your players to pick whichever option they believe would be the "best" one in any given situation).  

When it comes to your team instructions - apart from the low crosses I've just mentioned - here are some ideas for you to think about:

1. Given that you play on the Positive mentality, I would go with shorter passes (due to the interrelation between the mentality, passing style and tempo).

2. In transition, I would tell the keeper to distribute to both CBs and FBs (instead of only CBs) and would not specifically instruct him how to distribute the ball, because it's always safer to let the keeper choose the option he feels is optimal at the moment

3. you probably don't need to use the Counter instruction all the time, because it can lead to needless losses of possession. And your players will attempt counter-attacks when a good opportunity is on, even without the Counter team instruction. Therefore, I would suggest you use this instruction on a situational basis, rather than all the time.

If you have some additional questions, you are welcome :thup:

P.S: I'll comment the players from screenshots in the next post (except for the strikers, because I already dealt with them).

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, Nikola75 said:

1705827034_fmplayer6.thumb.jpg.78c6fc434ef6d47a54d68f267e6e5b59.jpg

I would never play this guy (Svanberg) in a CM position in a 4231, because his defensive attributes are very poor overall. He does not have proper attributes for a BBM, let alone carrilero or any other such type of role.

In a 4123 he could be a decent mezzala, but in a 4231 I would play him only in the AMC position. 

3 hours ago, Nikola75 said:

782033435_fmplayer5.thumb.jpg.33e0428d44fbb15e5a15c3ee1df645d1.jpg

Dominguez is a good choice for a DLP, and he could also play almost any CM role if needed (BBM, CAR, CM, MEZ...). The only midfield role I would not play him in is BWM

 

3 hours ago, Nikola75 said:

565831002_fmplayer3.thumb.jpg.5994cad7c850d80c155fb0b8a6a60e87.jpg 2033833056_fmplayer4.thumb.jpg.9f271baa701da75af69139913c40e59d.jpg

 

3 hours ago, Nikola75 said:

My star is Orsolini, right IF, and Almada (AP) is the next star. What do you think of them?

Both players look very good and are absolutely suited for the roles you play them in your tactic. 

Almada can play as an AP. In case you decide to change him into standard AM, I would use PIs to encourage him to play risky passes (take more risks) and get further forward. If you want to retain him as the AP, then roam from position PI could be helpful. 

3 hours ago, Nikola75 said:

Orsolini has "knocks ball past opponents", should I unlearn him this, as he has great dribbling?

I don't see why would you want him to unlearn this trait? It can be very useful, especially for counter-attacks. 

 

3 hours ago, Nikola75 said:

Almada likes to move into channels, but I rarely see him doing that, I mean getting into penalty box to score - even if I give him specific player instruction for that

Probably because you play him as an AP on support, which means he is more concerned with the organization of play than scoring goals and attacking the box. If you want to make him more of a goal threat, then you can try him as AM on attack duty. If you want him to remain in a playmaker role but also become more of a goal threat, then trequartista could be be an option worth consideration.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Well, this is a clinic now. Come in, doctor will see you. I can see you are spending lot of time answering people like me, but I can see it can become satisfying once you are into details like you are.

Ok, it would be stupid not to accept these. I have changed:

1 hour ago, Experienced Defender said:

First, you probably don't need 2 playmakers one behind the other (DLP and AP). Because it tends to overcomplicate the play. So retain one PM and replace the other with some non-playmaker role. For example, if you want to keep the DLP, then you can change the AP into a simple AM (maybe even on attack duty, but that would really depend both on the type of player and the overall quality of your team). In case you want to retain the AP, then the most logical option would be to change the DLP into a simple CM on defend duty.

  • dropped double playmaker roles. Despite Almada having more assists so far, I believe few have come from free kicks, and I would like him to join the striker more frequently, so I moved him to AMC. Dominguez will play DLP but on support role. Because...
  • With heavy heart, one of the crowd favourites Svanberg is transfer listed, there is no space for him in the future. I will play guy who was brought in to play his last season.  He has winning mentality, winning 18 trophies in Partizan, Olympiakos and Benfica, 10 of which were league champions. Wow. Ljubomir Fejsa. He is meant to play as Anchor man, I took your advice and looked at attributes - he will do great as CMd:
    595203366_fmferjsa.thumb.jpg.554a8dd4e8c312f19efd7c73e237c42b.jpg
     
  • Schick / Mayoral will play as PFa, Mayoral might even be better in that role with work rate, off the ball and aggression at 16, but will see, Schick will start
  • I agree regarding goalkeeper distribution - in fact I was not aware you can choose both to CB and FB. Nice
  • Right back is Tomiyasu, he already has "gets forward whenever possible", but I switched him to FBa anyway as you suggested

Well, I took almost all of your advices, all make sense. I will not use "shorter passing" and will keep "counter" option for now, to see how above changes play out. 

1 hour ago, Experienced Defender said:

Having mentioned the strikers, I don't see why have you opted for low crosses? While your strikers are not slow, they are not particularly fast, either. And Schick is even fairly good in the air. I think that mixed crosses would be a more logical choice (as it allows your players to pick whichever option they believe would be the "best" one in any given situation).  

I was experimenting with these, because on mixed crosses, most of them hit Schick, but he was just hitting them over the bar. I will try mixed again, maybe with PF position this will improve.

Thanks again @Experienced Defender, I will let you know how this works - and I do hope people are following this. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 minutes ago, Nikola75 said:

595203366_fmferjsa.thumb.jpg.554a8dd4e8c312f19efd7c73e237c42b.jpg

 

6 minutes ago, Nikola75 said:

Ljubomir Fejsa. He is meant to play as Anchor man, I took your advice and looked at attributes - he will do great as CMd

A really good player, and definitely natural anchor man (in terms of his attributes). The only problem with playing him as a CM in a 4231 is the lack of speed - he is too slow. Plus has very low stamina. And given that he is 33, it's only going to get worse. Which is just one more reason for you to consider switching to a 4123. 

 

11 minutes ago, Nikola75 said:

Right back is Tomiyasu, he already has "gets forward whenever possible", but I switched him to FBa anyway as you suggested

If he has the "gets forward" trait, then WB on support may be a better option. A lot depends on his attributes though. 

 

13 minutes ago, Nikola75 said:

I was experimenting with these, because on mixed crosses, most of them hit Schick, but he was just hitting them over the bar. I will try mixed again, maybe with PF position this will improve

You may try whipped crosses (if you are not pleased with how mixed work). 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Ok, here is my new tactic - I have switched Fejsa to the right, to cover space once my wingback is on the attack.

fm_game0.thumb.jpg.54741970bfa87ddf7866e785612b6655.jpg

 

Game 15 - vs Cagliari at home (11th, I was 10th) 
2-0

After struggling in the first half, I scored two in 55 and 67, missing penalty in 85.They did not have a shot on target and despite I didn't hold possession, game was good. However, both goals came from stoppage - from corner and from the direct free kick (Almada). Count in the missed penalty and the fact stays that we are having problems scoring from the play. Idea of Fejsa as CMd on the right was ok, he did bring in security. Unfortunately, he is slow and twice they launched counter-attack over him. He somehow managed to get back in time, maybe experience will hold him for few more months. He is retiring end of season, so I need a replacement. I am still reluctant not to use Almada in a AMC position, that is why I am sticking to 4231. 

fm_game1.thumb.jpg.5014f68bfc57b306fc1c56afea18e7d5.jpg

Game 16 - home vs Lazio (8th vs 6th)
0-1

This was a real test of changes made. After 5 matches unbeaten, 3 wins in a row, 34,000 packed to Dall' Ara stadium and witnessed a dissapointing first half. 

Lazio was absolutely better team, with Sergej Milinković-Savić scoring 16m shot in 18th min, almost uncontested. Fejsa was out of position, quicker player might get there faster, I don't know. Second half was better, I've managed to create chances, but impotence of strikers was the problem again. They are a better and much more experienced team, definitely, but it was a repeat of standard matches against stronger rivals. 

fm_game2.thumb.jpg.cf4fb6f376d99821ba2b5dbe220a3e06.jpg

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)

Hello there, as @Experienced Defender  said, the fewer TI you give to your tactic the more you understand what is happening on the pitch, I am currently managing Bologna too, beside that I am playing 4-1-2-3 and using a possesion system which provides me good results till now

unknown.png

My players have a tactical familiarity pretty solid on my system so as you can see have a lot of TI and PI but it comes with time, dont worry (pass into space and playing through the middle was a situational TI)

unknown.png

Here the results (ignore Juventus game, which I change to a 5-4-1) but indeed the system seems solid

Why that ? Because you have to see the tactic as a whole including all the aspects of your players and the style you are trying to apply (including strength attributes of your players, and traits also)

I think that the most important thing about playing a match is to be capable to read the game, why is this happening? why is this not happening? when you understand that you get able to make few changes and you see if they are helping to achieve chances or not

In my opinion if you want to play a success counter attack system, you need a formation that provides security (which 4-2-3-1 does not) I would change to 4-1-2-3 and try to play like this:

                    DLFat

IFsu                                    IWsu

           DLPsu      CMat

                Ade/CMde

FBat   BPDde     CDde      FBsu

                     SKsu                               

Mentallity : Positive

In posession: Higher tempo

In transition: Counter and Distribute quickly 

Out of possesion: Lower LOE and Get stuck in   

 

Edited by Vinay17

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 hours ago, Nikola75 said:

Game 15 - vs Cagliari at home (11th, I was 10th) 
2-0

After struggling in the first half, I scored two in 55 and 67, missing penalty in 85.They did not have a shot on target and despite I didn't hold possession, game was good. However, both goals came from stoppage - from corner and from the direct free kick (Almada). Count in the missed penalty and the fact stays that we are having problems scoring from the play. Idea of Fejsa as CMd on the right was ok, he did bring in security. Unfortunately, he is slow and twice they launched counter-attack over him. He somehow managed to get back in time, maybe experience will hold him for few more months. He is retiring end of season, so I need a replacement. I am still reluctant not to use Almada in a AMC position, that is why I am sticking to 4231. 

fm_game1.thumb.jpg.5014f68bfc57b306fc1c56afea18e7d5.jpg

Game 16 - home vs Lazio (8th vs 6th)
0-1

This was a real test of changes made. After 5 matches unbeaten, 3 wins in a row, 34,000 packed to Dall' Ara stadium and witnessed a dissapointing first half. 

Lazio was absolutely better team, with Sergej Milinković-Savić scoring 16m shot in 18th min, almost uncontested. Fejsa was out of position, quicker player might get there faster, I don't know. Second half was better, I've managed to create chances, but impotence of strikers was the problem again. They are a better and much more experienced team, definitely, but it was a repeat of standard matches against stronger rivals

Okay, that does not sound bad overall (5 matches unbeaten, 3 wins in a row and then a defeat against Lazio), but I noticed something in your tactic that may need to be addressed

Unlike the previous tactic, you now play both CMs in holding roles (CMde and DLP). Which suggests that now your left flank may lack sufficient support in attack, especially given that the winger is on attack duty. In other words, you need to either change the LB into WB on support in order to encourage him to be more involved in the play higher up the pitch; or to change the left CM back into BBM (which would leave you without a designated playmaker); or to change the left CM into AP on support as a sort of compromise between the previous 2 options. There is a fourth option - to change the winger's duty into support:

So this is what the above options would look like:

1st option:

Wat

        DLPsu

WBsu

2nd option:

Wat

         BBM

FBsu

3rd option:

Wat

         APsu

FBsu

4th option:

Wsu

         DLPsu

FB/WBsu

Now it's up to you to analyze your players and decide which of these options would make most sense. Or you can try each of them and see which one works best for your team.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
10 hours ago, Vinay17 said:

Hello there, as @Experienced Defender  said, the fewer TI you give to your tactic the more you understand what is happening on the pitch, I am currently managing Bologna too, beside that I am playing 4-1-2-3 and using a possesion system which provides me good results till now

unknown.png

Hi Vinay, these are really great results with Bologna. After winning CL with Valencia in FM19 in third season, I thought I am good player, I can see I am far from that.

I've notice you have chosen Narrow and Play through the middle team instructions. How that looks in the game? Are Svanberg and Dominguez keeping the ball all the time? Is it central advance, or does this create more space for Orsolini and Vignato? I understand what you and Experienced Defender are saying, it's possible that my tactics is too offensive with AMC instead of DMC, but at the moment I am having problems at the attacking end, in front of their goal, not so much in defense. I manage to keep my net intact fairly good, but I have problems scoring - even in last 5-6 games when I was succesfull, I had problems unlocking the net and managed to do so only during the last phase of the match.

I will try implementing some of your advices for my second tactic, which is 4123. I am not using it frequently, but I have it ready. It did not bring results, but it might with some changes and I might try it versus better teams.

Questions for you, @Vinay17

  • I can see you are training only one tactic. You don't have second one trained and ready to switch to for some matches, or during the game?
  • Vignato developed well? I am playing him now as a sub for Orsolini on the right, he was on loan at Chievo for two seasons and did great there, but is not able to develop now.
  • What did you do with Danish right winger, Olsen? And how did you keep Barrow? Atalanta was asking 30m for him after first season in my save :)

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Well, guys, things don't work. I have taken your advice. First, I changed my standard 4231 tactics with @Experienced Defender tips. At first, everything seemed great, I was on 5-game run with no defeat, risen to 7th place in Serie A. Unfortunately, as I was fearing all the time, it could have been just an easy schedule. 

I have then switched to 4123, based on @Vinay17 advice, to play Milan, Lazio and Napoli. Well, it was a difficult schedule, with 4 away matches and Milan game at home, but 6 losses in a row, with 4-11 goal difference... My striker Schick has not scored for 12 hours of football. I am now back to 13th place, and am going the same way as in first 2 seasons. I was so disheartened that I went to holidays in a derby in Napoli :)

re your change on the left, I tried both, @Experienced Defender. Not that I can say any made much difference. 

fm1.thumb.jpg.fd34197323ac764995462fdd354f66fc.jpg

I trust your advises should be good, but something is wrong. Any tips on finding what? After looking at tactics, which we have already done, what is the next thing you do when analyzing problems. For example, do you start by looking at big picture, like individual stats? Or do you take a look at team stats in a league stats table? 

Or, do you think I should move directly into analyzing the individual match stats, looking at the full match?

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)
5 hours ago, Nikola75 said:

I was so disheartened that I went to holidays in a derby in Napoli :)

I know exactly what you are talking about. I am going through bad times either after I thought „I got it again“.

You and me either have to keep in mind, that this game was called „the biggest RPG“ by the developer. I want to say that there are other elements than tactic which have a huge impact on our performances.

Morale: my team plays awful when the morale has dropped. One defeat and the morale is sinking. 
tactical fluency: During a season I train only match preparation, despite this it‘s almost impossible to get tactical fluency in roles (perhaps I switch to often to find my style of play?) The players then are not comfort with my tactical approach even though other tactical parts are trained to fluid.

Recently I read that the way you handle press conferences has a huge impact on the team performance.

well team trust is excellent and my team is determined, great combination but the results ... 

I can manage to get my team on track for some matches but things turn around again and again. Despite that I finished above media expectations. Maybe we‘re doing not so bad.

you got real strong matches, changed the system and your players were not familiar? Now you may have to pick up the pieces and build new.

Edited by HanziZoloman

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, HanziZoloman said:

I can manage to get my team on track for some matches but things turn around again and again. Despite that I finished above media expectations. Maybe we‘re doing not so bad.

you got real strong matches, changed the system and your players were not familiar? Now you may have to pick up the pieces and build new.

Of course, you are right. I am also questioning something else. How long the team needs to adapt to changes in the tactic? Realistically speaking, if I am the manager, I would probably not want to change things every week. Or maybe, if those changes are small (make one player more attacking, keep wingback narrower etc), I would? How does the game handles this, how many games are needed in order to see results of tactical changes - or are these seen instantly?

Something else I have in mind - I have lot of young players in the team. They are good looking at attributes, but is FM20 taking into the account their lack of experience? I don't know how far does it go with that.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Nikola75 said:

They are good looking at attributes, but is FM20 taking into the account their lack of experience? I don't know how far does it go with that.

I would think so, my team is also very young and the old veterans had quit in summer. Maybe it is more difficult this year without the leaders.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Now the situation has changed again after a few modifications:

- I took @Experienced Defender to heart (of Midlothian) and tweaked a little based on his comments above (balanced left flank)

- I took those players with good morale and tried to boost others with personal interaction (praised conduct or form)

- I got the setup more simple and placed the players in position due to their skills (more than before) 

- I took press conferences and interviews more seriously 

- I rotated lesser (usually I rotate much)

- I had three hard victories against the lower teams 

but I got stressed and had to invest plenty of time and I am still not solid.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, HanziZoloman said:

- I took @Experienced Defender to heart (of Midlothian) and tweaked a little based on his comments above (balanced left flank)

- I took those players with good morale and tried to boost others with personal interaction (praised conduct or form)

- I got the setup more simple and placed the players in position due to their skills (more than before) 

- I took press conferences and interviews more seriously 

- I rotated lesser (usually I rotate much)

- I had three hard victories against the lower teams 

but I got stressed and had to invest plenty of time and I am still not solid.

Everything is fine, but I won't be starting with press conferences, assistant manager will stay there :)

Are you taking lot of times in pre-match briefings? 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
16 hours ago, Nikola75 said:

re your change on the left, I tried both, @Experienced Defender. Not that I can say any made much difference. 

fm1.thumb.jpg.fd34197323ac764995462fdd354f66fc.jpg

I trust your advises should be good, but something is wrong. Any tips on finding what? After looking at tactics, which we have already done, what is the next thing you do when analyzing problems. For example, do you start by looking at big picture, like individual stats? Or do you take a look at team stats in a league stats table? 

Or, do you think I should move directly into analyzing the individual match stats, looking at the full match?

Given that I cannot remember everything we discussed in this thread - as there were many suggestions, and you did not follow all of them - I have to ask you once again to post a screenshot of that newest tactic. Because I really don't know what it looks like now, after all changes you made following not only my but also Vinay's suggestions. 

One problem is that I don't know all your players (just those you posted screenshots of). Another potential problem is that your setup of roles and duties may be good, but instructions could be wrong (including the mentality). For example, I remember that you did not want to apply my suggestion on passing relative to the mentality, as well as regarding the Counter TI: 

On 18/03/2020 at 23:06, Experienced Defender said:

Given that you play on the Positive mentality, I would go with shorter passes (due to the interrelation between the mentality, passing style and tempo)

 

On 18/03/2020 at 23:06, Experienced Defender said:

3. you probably don't need to use the Counter instruction all the time, because it can lead to needless losses of possession. And your players will attempt counter-attacks when a good opportunity is on, even without the Counter team instruction. Therefore, I would suggest you use this instruction on a situational basis, rather than all the time

 

On 19/03/2020 at 01:04, Nikola75 said:

I took almost all of your advices, all make sense. I will not use "shorter passing" and will keep "counter" option for now, to see how above changes play out

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
22 hours ago, Nikola75 said:

Hi Vinay, these are really great results with Bologna. After winning CL with Valencia in FM19 in third season, I thought I am good player, I can see I am far from that.

I've notice you have chosen Narrow and Play through the middle team instructions. How that looks in the game? Are Svanberg and Dominguez keeping the ball all the time? Is it central advance, or does this create more space for Orsolini and Vignato? I understand what you and Experienced Defender are saying, it's possible that my tactics is too offensive with AMC instead of DMC, but at the moment I am having problems at the attacking end, in front of their goal, not so much in defense. I manage to keep my net intact fairly good, but I have problems scoring - even in last 5-6 games when I was succesfull, I had problems unlocking the net and managed to do so only during the last phase of the match.

I will try implementing some of your advices for my second tactic, which is 4123. I am not using it frequently, but I have it ready. It did not bring results, but it might with some changes and I might try it versus better teams.

Questions for you, @Vinay17

  • I can see you are training only one tactic. You don't have second one trained and ready to switch to for some matches, or during the game?
  • Vignato developed well? I am playing him now as a sub for Orsolini on the right, he was on loan at Chievo for two seasons and did great there, but is not able to develop now.
  • What did you do with Danish right winger, Olsen? And how did you keep Barrow? Atalanta was asking 30m for him after first season in my save :)

 

 

First of sorry for taking so much to answer, said that let me answer your questions

Narrow width and play through the center is not always good, because you limit your team in terms of game creation and its more a defensive instruction, like a said it was a situational scene

No, Dominguez and Svanberg dont keep the ball they distribute because in my case I am playing with a possesion style so everyone need to contribute as a pass

I need to see your tactics to give you a good advice, knowing that you want to implement a counter attack style

I have a second tactic indeed if you look at the picture of my tactic you will see

Vignato is a jewel but I am trying to reconvert him to IF on the AML because the traits that he have make sense to reconvert

In the game that I am playing Barrow already signed for Bologna he is on loan although, he sign on July 2021 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
28 minutes ago, Experienced Defender said:

Given that I cannot remember everything we discussed in this thread - as there were many suggestions, and you did not follow all of them - I have to ask you once again to post a screenshot of that newest tactic. Because I really don't know what it looks like now, after all changes you made following not only my but also Vinay's suggestions. 

One problem is that I don't know all your players (just those you posted screenshots of). Another potential problem is that your setup of roles and duties may be good, but instructions could be wrong (including the mentality). For example, I remember that you did not want to apply my suggestion on passing relative to the mentality, as well as regarding the Counter TI: 

This is my current tactic. I kept counter and standard passing, true.

fm1.thumb.jpg.9a86234ef86d81812e5db4133efc0f18.jpg

In the game I played now, I have started with this tactic, it was against Crotone (17th, I am a big favourite). Again, difficult game, until 60th minute. 8 shots, 4 on target, no clear-cut-chance.

Then, I switched to short passing and turned off counter instruction. Miracle happened - I scored three goals in 10 minutes from 3 shots, all three by right IF Orsolini. Two came from the left wing cross to him, one from his dribbling into the box. What? Should these changes have such effect? Or was that a coincidence. I will try more, but if these two changes turned my average team into goal-scoring machine, I am even more worried. Are there specific combinations in the match engine which "work", while only slight different ones don't? I appreciate the balance you are talking about, @Experienced Defender, but this kind of tweaking kind of turns the game against what it should be, making small changes in tactics in order to get small changes on the field. What do you think? 

I will try more and report back :)

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, Nikola75 said:

Are you taking lot of times in pre-match briefings? 

Nah, it has to be done, I‘m repeating myself there always saying balanced tactic, higher tempo... 

got five victories in a row now. Morale is high and I had put the same squad in same setup to the matches. Maybe that’s a point 

Edited by HanziZoloman

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, Nikola75 said:

n the game I played now, I have started with this tactic, it was against Crotone (17th, I am a big favourite). Again, difficult game, until 60th minute. 8 shots, 4 on target, no clear-cut-chance.

Then, I switched to short passing and turned off counter instruction. Miracle happened - I scored three goals in 10 minutes from 3 shots, all three by right IF Orsolini. Two came from the left wing cross to him, one from his dribbling into the box

You see :) 

 

3 hours ago, Nikola75 said:

What? Should these changes have such effect? Or was that a coincidence

They obviously had an effect. They will probably not going to have the same effect against a different type of opposition, because there is no universal recipe. That's why it's important for people to watch their matches and see if they need to make small tweaks or not, and what kind of tweaks these should be. 

 

3 hours ago, Nikola75 said:

I will try more, but if these two changes turned my average team into goal-scoring machine, I am even more worried. Are there specific combinations in the match engine which "work", while only slight different ones don't?

Different combinations work in different situations. A combination that works perfectly in one match may fail in another. Likewise, a tactic that works for one team (e.g. Juve) is not necessarily going to work for the other (e.g. Bologna). But when you manage to create a tactic that really suits your players, then all you need is a small occasional tweak. If you have such a tactic, then you don't need to make big changes even against the strongest teams. 

 

4 hours ago, Nikola75 said:

I appreciate the balance you are talking about, @Experienced Defender, but this kind of tweaking kind of turns the game against what it should be, making small changes in tactics in order to get small changes on the field. What do you think?

Some changes/tweaks have a small effect, others have a greater effect. Sometimes just one single tweak can completely change the way you play. But you should never make tweaks randomly. Make them only when you are absolutely sure why you want to make that specific tweak.

For example, when I proposed shorter passing instead of standard, I did it only because you play on the Positive mentality. But if you played on the Balanced, then standard passing would be okay and probably would not need to be switched to shorter. Because the mentality has a notable impact on everything, including passing style and tempo. Each instruction works differently under different mentalities. 

4 hours ago, Nikola75 said:

fm1.thumb.jpg.9a86234ef86d81812e5db4133efc0f18.jpg

This kind of tactic may work against weaker (and perhaps similarly strong) opposition, but against stronger teams I fear you'll need to tone it down a bit. Because the left flank is fairly attack-minded, even though it's generally decently balanced. Keep in mind that you are not a top team, so you cannot afford too much risk.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 hours ago, Nikola75 said:

This is my current tactic. I kept counter and standard passing, true.

fm1.thumb.jpg.9a86234ef86d81812e5db4133efc0f18.jpg

 

This is interesting... 

I would make some tweaks to this. Let me explain my points:

1) Your left side is very exposed to suffer counter, I would change the APsu to a holding type of CM like DLPsu

2) You have your AMC and your striker in attack duty so they will attack the same space, personally I would try a PFa and AMsu

3) You are trying to play a counterattack style, you can play with a higher tempo and a lower LOE, also, as you have a positive mentality I would change pass into shorter

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8 hours ago, Vinay17 said:

1) Your left side is very exposed to suffer counter, I would change the APsu to a holding type of CM like DLPsu

2) You have your AMC and your striker in attack duty so they will attack the same space, personally I would try a PFa and AMsu

3) You are trying to play a counterattack style, you can play with a higher tempo and a lower LOE, also, as you have a positive mentality I would change pass into shorter

Thanks @Vinay17. I understand what you are saying. @Experienced Defender also made some very similar points. 

I have changed my left MC into APsu on the proposal in one of the messages above. Obviously, it is not possible to say what effect it will have without watching the match, but Experienced Defender said that if I leave DLP on the left, I am stuck with two holding MCs and without support to the attack. I will try to get it more back, maybe pull left winger on support to get him closer to the central midfield. 

AMa is sometimes AMsu, but as the strikers can not score for 6-7 games in a row, I need someone scoring. So, the idea is to push this guy forward to get into spaces.

If i select "counter" in the instructions, I thought I am not generally playing only with counter style. I would still like to play organised football, building the attack. However, when I get the ball, I want my team to quickly try to get it forward, possibly to the wingers. There is also instruction "focus play down the left/right", but reading some messges in the forum, I understood this does not mean my players will pass to the flanks more frequently, but that flanks will play more offensively. Have I understood this correctly? It does not really makes sense, focus play should mean that the ball will go there frequently?

 

13 hours ago, Experienced Defender said:

They obviously had an effect. They will probably not going to have the same effect against a different type of opposition, because there is no universal recipe. That's why it's important for people to watch their matches and see if they need to make small tweaks or not, and what kind of tweaks these should be. 

This is very important point and it should be the most important thing in FM series. I will start new topic with some questions related to it, @Experienced Defender, I think it might be interested for people so it wouldn't be good to bury it in here.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
13 hours ago, Experienced Defender said:

This kind of tactic may work against weaker (and perhaps similarly strong) opposition, but against stronger teams I fear you'll need to tone it down a bit. Because the left flank is fairly attack-minded, even though it's generally decently balanced. Keep in mind that you are not a top team, so you cannot afford too much risk.

I was trying to use different tactics for stronger opposition and for most away games. It is 4123, trying to uphold the pressure and organize from the back. Wingers should be able to carry the ball into attacking third, while creative MCs would theoretically be able to recognize the openings and launch the counter. "Shorter" passing might not be the best solution here, what do you think? I thought to keep it short, but when DLP, MEZ and BPD recognize the opportunity, their creativity and vision would make them pass up. 

image.thumb.png.5387c73777bea6a705c6f784706e5ed2.png

Well, there are probably many problems with it, as above with everything I posted :)

Here is the game I played yesterday, vs Fiorentina (they were 12th, I was 10th, so they were not overwhelming favourites).

image.thumb.png.190636fb281d593f5d02eeb5fe8eee1c.png

So, I did create some chances (2 clear cut vs 1), possession was left to the opponent. I did not have corners, much different then when I use 4231 (I might have 7-10 corners regularly). Crosses good, passing percentage ok, aggressive aproach.

image.thumb.png.b815b3b719e92bb1b5b2edcbdf12aa7e.png

What do you think went wrong here? Should I look at the match in full to find out? I have set another topic with questions about recognizing problems on basis of match stats, so some general observations might be better there.

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
41 minutes ago, Nikola75 said:

I have changed my left MC into APsu on the proposal in one of the messages above

Which exact proposal are you referring to? Mine or someone else's? 

 

43 minutes ago, Nikola75 said:

There is also instruction "focus play down the left/right", but reading some messges in the forum, I understood this does not mean my players will pass to the flanks more frequently, but that flanks will play more offensively. Have I understood this correctly?

You haven't. Focus play down a flank (one or the other, or both), will encourage your players to use that flank (or flanks) more and look for passing options there as much as possible. 

At the same time, the instruction slightly increases the mentality of your fullback (or wing-back) on that particular flank in order to make it a bit more attack-minded so that focusing the play would have more of an impact. I guess that's what confused you. 

I don't say that you should use this instruction, just explaining what it is supposed to do when turned on. 

49 minutes ago, Nikola75 said:

This is very important point and it should be the most important thing in FM series. I will start new topic with some questions related to it, @Experienced Defender, I think it might be interested for people so it wouldn't be good to bury it in here

:thup: 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
40 minutes ago, Nikola75 said:

image.thumb.png.5387c73777bea6a705c6f784706e5ed2.png

 

40 minutes ago, Nikola75 said:

Well, there are probably many problems with it, as above with everything I posted

The setup of roles and duties looks good and is really nicely balanced :thup:

The only change I would suggest you consider is switching the striker into PF on attack duty in order to avoid him getting too isolated.

When it comes to instructions, it really depends on what exactly is your idea with this tactic in terms of playing style. You need to know why you opt for certain instructions. For example: why narrow attacking width? Or why pass into space? Why narrow defensive width? And so on. I don't say that any of these is either right or wrong. Just emphasizing some questions you need to ask yourself when creating (or tweaking) a tactic. Again, always keep the mentality factor in mind. 

Anyway, given that the setup of roles and duties really makes sense, the tactic probably just needs some fine-tuning, rather than a complete overhaul. Which is certainly good news :brock:

46 minutes ago, Nikola75 said:

Here is the game I played yesterday, vs Fiorentina (they were 12th, I was 10th, so they were not overwhelming favourites).

image.thumb.png.190636fb281d593f5d02eeb5fe8eee1c.png

Losing against a team of similar strength (quality, reputation) away from home by just one goal is definitely not a catastrophe. As long as it does not happen every single time ;)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)

Hee man! Seems that you are making some progress! Congrats.. 

The result against La Viola could have been different, you got more better chances against a solid defensive line.

I have a match against Rangers coming up. Your setup will be an inspiration for me.

Edited by HanziZoloman

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Well, I am giving this one up and will restart the game, with Bologna again. 

After relatively unsuccessful first two seasons (13th and 12th place), I have started third one, taking into account lots of tips from people who know, @Experienced Defender especially. Most of them make sense, but they are not improving my results in any way. After 27 matches, I am 15th in Seria A, despite having stronger team then in previous two. 

Based on suggestions, I have played with two different formations - more defensive one 4123 against stronger clubs, but continue to use 4231 against teams of similar or lesser reputation. While some matches seemed good, I have lost 14 matches in the season so far. 

I can say that with this experiment, all the tips did not make any difference, which is sad and strange. 

With my next save, I will try to go slower, watch at least 15 min of each match on full and try to find out what is going wrong. I am sure something from here will help - not sure if anyone will be interested to hear, but I will report back how it is going.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, Nikola75 said:

Based on suggestions, I have played with two different formations - more defensive one 4123 against stronger clubs, but continue to use 4231 against teams of similar or lesser reputation

Well, precisely that may have potentially been your biggest mistake. You did not just tweaked the tactic to adapt to different types of opposition. but you changed the entire formation. 

I'll now just give you an example of how I approach this particular aspect of the game...

So let's imagine this is my primary tactic, which I use - with very small occasional in-match tweaks - in most of my matches:

PFat

IWsu                               Wsu

DLPsu   MEZat

HB

FBat    CDde  BPDde  IWBsu

SKsu

Let's say. for example, that I play on the Balanced mentality and use only these starting instructions: shorter passing and distribute to CBs and FBs. Everything else are only tweaks (which I make only if really necessary).

Plus a split block involving 4 players (striker, both wingers and mezzala)

And let's say this above tactic works well for my team. But I need a reserve (secondary) tactic, which I am going to use in tougher matches (against really strong opposition). What am I going to do?

Am I going to create a tactic that is totally different from my primary one (above)? No.

Will I change the formation from the 4123 into something more bottom-heavy (e.g. 4141 flat)? Again - No.

So what that reserve tactic is going to like like? 

Basically like this:

PFat

IWsu                                  Wsu

DLPsu   CMat

Ade

FBat    CDde   BPDde    FBsu

SKsu

As you can see, I just tweaked 3 roles (MEZ into CM, HB into anchor and IWB into FB) to make them a bit more conservative (less adventurous), but no duties. So I still have 3 attack duties, just as in my primary tactic. And these duties are still in the same positions.

What about mentality? Will I change it to a lower one? No - it will remain Balanced.

I will just tweak a couple of instructions:

- shorter passing into standard

- standard LOE into lower LOE (to achieve better defensive compactness, which both makes me harder to break down and creates more spaces for potential counter-attacks)

And that's it when it comes to team instructions.

In terms of player instructions, I will only soften my split block - with 2 players closing down more instead of 4. These 2 will be the striker and CM on attack duty.

What are potential in-match tweaks I may consider if I notice that the opposition leaves a lot of space for potential counter-attacks?

Will I immediately turn the Counter TI on? No.

Instead, I will first try with a slightly higher tempo. Then I'll watch carefully to see if that's enough or I may need one more tweak. If I do need one more tweak, that next one will be hit early crosses. So I now have both the higher tempo and early crosses added. 

Let's now imagine I have taken the lead following these 2 tweaks. Now I watch the match even more carefully to see whether the opposition is becoming even more attack-minded trying to equalize. If that's the case, I change (lower) the tempo back to standard and add the Counter TI. So now I use these 4 instructions: counter, early crosses, distribute to CBs and FBs and lower LOE. The mentality is still unchanged (Balanced).

The match is approaching the end (it's somewhere around 80th minute) and I still have the minimal lead I am pleased with and want to keep it.

So what do I do now? Remove both the Counter TI and early crosses and tell the keeper to slow pace down (the in-transition instruction). 

Now it's just a few minutes till the end. What is my next step? I am adding the Waste time sometimes and Play for set pieces

And the final move - I make the last substitution somewhere around the 90th minute to waste a bit more time and see out the match.

NOTE: This was just an example meant to explain things in a simple manner, so please do not take all this literally :)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)
13 minutes ago, Experienced Defender said:

Well, precisely that may have potentially been your biggest mistake. You did not just tweaked the tactic to adapt to different types of opposition. but you changed the entire formation. 

Does this mean that players are not used to new formation, if you are using two different ones? Both of them did have good tactical familiarity for the team, that wasn't the problem. Actually, the more attacking formation (4231) did give good results against weaker or similar oppositions, so I wanted to keep it and continue playing attacking football. The second more conservative formation was introduced on basis of your ideas, which sounded well, to switch to more defensive one against better opposition. It surely did not make sense to attack against Juvenus, Inter or Napoli, I agree to that.

Thanks for the rest of the explanation, some ideas are helpful.

Edited by Nikola75

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Just now, Nikola75 said:

Does this mean that players are not used to new formation, if you are using two different ones?

No, that was not my (primary) point. You can use 2 different formations (as long as they are analogous), but I wanted to show you through a practical example that big tactical changes are not necessary. And even if you use a different formation for your secondary tactic, the tactic itself should not be overly different from the basic one.

Formation and tactic are not the same. You can have a number of different tactics within the same formation. People often confuse these 2 things.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Ok, I get what you are saying. It is just that I was sad that changes did not work. I was not able to improve neither my game, neither results, despite some smart tips from you and @Vinay17. It was the same as I would continue to use my unbalanced tactics (well, in fact, it turned out to be worse) :)

I'll keep on trying. I do play FM for some time already, I do understand basic things and I managed to get some very good results in some saves in past years. It could be that this version is different or that I have chosen particularly difficult challenge with Bologna.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 hours ago, Experienced Defender said:

Well, precisely that may have potentially been your biggest mistake. You did not just tweaked the tactic to adapt to different types of opposition. but you changed the entire formation. 

I'll now just give you an example of how I approach this particular aspect of the game...

So let's imagine this is my primary tactic, which I use - with very small occasional in-match tweaks - in most of my matches:

PFat

IWsu                               Wsu

DLPsu   MEZat

HB

FBat    CDde  BPDde  IWBsu

SKsu

Let's say. for example, that I play on the Balanced mentality and use only these starting instructions: shorter passing and distribute to CBs and FBs. Everything else are only tweaks (which I make only if really necessary).

Plus a split block involving 4 players (striker, both wingers and mezzala)

And let's say this above tactic works well for my team. But I need a reserve (secondary) tactic, which I am going to use in tougher matches (against really strong opposition). What am I going to do?

Am I going to create a tactic that is totally different from my primary one (above)? No.

Will I change the formation from the 4123 into something more bottom-heavy (e.g. 4141 flat)? Again - No.

So what that reserve tactic is going to like like? 

Basically like this:

PFat

IWsu                                  Wsu

DLPsu   CMat

Ade

FBat    CDde   BPDde    FBsu

SKsu

As you can see, I just tweaked 3 roles (MEZ into CM, HB into anchor and IWB into FB) to make them a bit more conservative (less adventurous), but no duties. So I still have 3 attack duties, just as in my primary tactic. And these duties are still in the same positions.

What about mentality? Will I change it to a lower one? No - it will remain Balanced.

I will just tweak a couple of instructions:

- shorter passing into standard

- standard LOE into lower LOE (to achieve better defensive compactness, which both makes me harder to break down and creates more spaces for potential counter-attacks)

And that's it when it comes to team instructions.

In terms of player instructions, I will only soften my split block - with 2 players closing down more instead of 4. These 2 will be the striker and CM on attack duty.

What are potential in-match tweaks I may consider if I notice that the opposition leaves a lot of space for potential counter-attacks?

Will I immediately turn the Counter TI on? No.

Instead, I will first try with a slightly higher tempo. Then I'll watch carefully to see if that's enough or I may need one more tweak. If I do need one more tweak, that next one will be hit early crosses. So I now have both the higher tempo and early crosses added. 

Let's now imagine I have taken the lead following these 2 tweaks. Now I watch the match even more carefully to see whether the opposition is becoming even more attack-minded trying to equalize. If that's the case, I change (lower) the tempo back to standard and add the Counter TI. So now I use these 4 instructions: counter, early crosses, distribute to CBs and FBs and lower LOE. The mentality is still unchanged (Balanced).

The match is approaching the end (it's somewhere around 80th minute) and I still have the minimal lead I am pleased with and want to keep it.

So what do I do now? Remove both the Counter TI and early crosses and tell the keeper to slow pace down (the in-transition instruction). 

Now it's just a few minutes till the end. What is my next step? I am adding the Waste time sometimes and Play for set pieces

And the final move - I make the last substitution somewhere around the 90th minute to waste a bit more time and see out the match.

NOTE: This was just an example meant to explain things in a simple manner, so please do not take all this literally :)

Great post :thup:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Bologna is back! 

Well, I wanted to report back. I have started my new save with Bologna and things are going much better. Lot of this due to the change in thinking caused by @Experienced Defender, thank you man, but also due to taking more time to think about the tactics. I am now watching first 15 min of each game in full match in 2D, trying to sort out things I might have noticed. I still don't understand everything, but it helps.

FM_schedule.thumb.jpg.63072af61c154639823c066cb65d766c.jpg

After 8 matchdays in Serie A, I am in excellent 4th position, despite having very difficult schedule, playing Fiorentina & Inter away and Juve & Roma at home. Maybe something here will help someone.

I am still empoying two tactics. The first one is attacking, where I am trying to impose my style, overwhelm the opponent and trying to create high number of quality chances. This is employed vs teams of lower reputation and quality, or versus those equal to me, when playing in front of my 25,000 - 30,000 tifosi. Well, there are actually two versions of the same tactics, I will usually use left one and could switch to number 2 during the match.

image.thumb.png.913bc831b08f239e62b4c085e7d5dbdc.png  image.thumb.png.337ed52d198894800203bbc8b81bf553.png

How does this look like? It will usually bring big number of shots (15-25 per match) and good quality of clear-cut and half-chances (5-8 per match). 

The third tactic is the 4-1-2-3, which @Experienced Defender was suggesting I should take, but which I was struggling to get to work in previous match.

image.thumb.png.afdd0d639d7a75b66d5d96cf663a117b.png

So, what did I change?

  • I might play with two tougher players in CM - Medel & Poli both have high work rate, determination, teamwork... While these might not be the most creative midfield, they get the job done, close the center. If playing against not so imposing opposition, I might change Poli with more creative one, Mezzala maybe. 
  • All in all, squad is much more experienced - Medel, Danilo, Poli are 30 years old or more, with Palacio (37) coming from the bench. Maybe this helps? 
  • Left winger is surprising good. He is quite average player, in reality, looking at his attributes, but he is good in defense and can run with the ball. In two matches, he has tackled the ball, taken it into opposition half and centered, resulting twice in opening goals. And against Juve, he scored a winning goal in 90th minute. This is something which can not be explained by attributes, even his ratings are average, but looking at key moments in the matches, he might have been responsible for 9 points! In previous save, I would have chosen creative and attacking minded player, expecting this kind of results and they did not materialise.
  • Right winger is creative IF (Almada or Orsolini). I have given them "sit narrower" and "roam from position", while RB has got "overlap" instruction. The change with "roaming" works very well with these kind of players, at least.
  • I am pressing much less. I might mark opposing full-backs tightly. I am using "regroup" team instruction and have turned off "counter" TI. Actually, lot of changes to make this one work, comparing to previous tactic.

 Here are last two matches :) Actually, I hate these kind of games, usually I am on the other side of these stats...

image.thumb.png.ab54df66bd8fd7303d704e8258f00f26.png image.thumb.png.a02c11750c641899f44ac7f698de2876.png

What does not work (yet)?

  • Well, I have problems in including my DLPde (Dominguez) in the game. He should be my best player, very creative, but so far 0 assists and 0 key passes
  • Striker (Barrow) scored 3 in 8 matches, but is pretty much cut off most of the time. I have tried DLF during some matches, did not help
  • My left MC which might play as mezzala (Soriano), is very poor. Has very solid attributes, does not work in any tactics. Not included in plays, poor ratings, making mistakes...

Any thoughts?

image.thumb.png.7f94c79de8a84318f4cfbdff5d038408.png  image.thumb.png.240f18917cae2afbc497e9ebb2102d50.png  image.thumb.png.ec752e71f28bdcd42ea7aa75066385fe.png   

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, Nikola75 said:

image.thumb.png.afdd0d639d7a75b66d5d96cf663a117b.png

 

3 hours ago, Nikola75 said:

The third tactic is the 4-1-2-3, which @Experienced Defender was suggesting I should take, but which I was struggling to get to work in previous match

I am glad that you are doing well in terms of results and hope that good run will continue for as long as possible. But at the same time I have to ask - when and where exactly have I suggested this particular tactic you mentioned (the third one)? 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.

×
×
  • Create New...