Jump to content

Gegenpressing: The Roadmap to German Efficiency


Recommended Posts

1 minute ago, retrodude09 said:

Excellent post @Justified on how you go about setting up your training based on Gegenpressing. I'm curious as to how you adapt your schedule when you have 2 games per week? 

I keep it about the DNA only. So if I can fit in 2 Trans-Press, a Direct Attacking and a Defend Engage then that's the core DNA done. Only time i wouldn't do this is over Xmas where you have very little rest. I'd just set a match prep depending on opponent for that match because I need to recover as much condition for the players as possible. Again you can do this for any style you want to play. Core DNA training's are quite easy to figure out once you know what attributes are important for it. Counter Attacking would pretty much be a flip of this. Trans-Restrict and Defend Disengage but you'd keep Direct Attacking and Ball Distribution.

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Replies 129
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

Top Posters In This Topic

9 hours ago, Justified said:

Edit: Forgot to say about Goalkeeping training, I like to keep this fairly flexible as well. If I'm training the team on Possession training then maybe I want to train him on Distribution as well to keep in line. Or if training physical's he could do One-on-Ones as that includes running. Mostly I keep it on Shot-Stopping but can be handy to chuck in Handling in there from time to time to mix things up.

Thanks much man! I couldn't see the pic but it all makes sense in my head (Can see the pic now!). One last question if you may, where do you put the Goalie training? Thursday late?

Edited by HanziZoloman
Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, HanziZoloman said:

Thanks much man! I couldn't see the pic but it all makes sense in my head (Can see the pic now!). One last question if you may, where do you put the Goalie training? Thursday late?

Default I'd put it on Thursday ES. Most of the time during International Breaks I put it on Wednesday ES because I train physicals on Thurs + Fri so I don't want my first choice to get a silly injury.

Link to post
Share on other sites

I wrote in previous post about a Peterborough save where I was just getting banged weekly in Prem, I was going to implement this however when I logged on I got offered Celtic Job...for a change I just took the job as planning on a journeyman type career. 
 

implemented this in the Feb when I took job and instantly had team playing football I anticipated, results werent instant but I put that down to players not quite suited, managed to shuffle team find an XI and just got them over the line to the title. They had a good but aged squad so cashed in on 3 of the main players for huge money..all £20m+. Spent whole summer scouting to plug the gaps, managed to get Pietro Pellegri (£21m) and Kenneh (£22m) plus some good young players.

Next 2 seasons have been incredible, treble first full season and got out a champs league group of Barca, Dortmund and Man City. Current season is heading for another treble and again got out of a tricky champs league group. Most startling stat is Im currently 60 games unbeaten domestically...53 wins 7 draws. 
 

i appreciate its Scotland and Celtic had money when I took over but football on show is brilliant, on the look out now to take my versions of this tactic and either start a new save or look around for a managerless team within a lower european league just to see how it performs. 

Apologies this is a bit long winded but just wanted to provide a little bit of feedback for a brilliant thread. Has helped enormously with my understsnding of the tactic system

Link to post
Share on other sites
11 hours ago, sven78 said:

Apologies this is a bit long winded but just wanted to provide a little bit of feedback for a brilliant thread. Has helped enormously with my understsnding of the tactic system

Same 4 me! 
had a Scottish save top with Hearts but Celtic is so far away no chance to race 4 title. 

Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, DocSnyder said:

Scotland too here - 8th place with Ross County and they are really hard to manage.

Anthony McDonald, Harry Cochrane and Dean Campbell are very nice and cheap prospects. Allan Campbell is Motherwell, he is a terrible fighter but a little more money is needed..

Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, DocSnyder said:

In January I got Ikpeazu from the Hearts - he saved my ass :D

He‘s great! How do you play him? 
also great is Craig Halkett a defender and good putting set pieces in the net..

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • 3 weeks later...

@AceAvenger First off, these tactics are great!  Really enjoying them and have now won the Bundesliga 3 years in a row with 1860 and made serious Champions League runs.

Two questions I have:

1. How can I alter the 4-4-2 gegenpressing formation to suit a player who has great winger traits?  He performs well as an IW, but his productivity was much higher as a winger in previous formations.

2. How would you suggest I alter the duties of the two forwards if I have world beaters here?  I find that my PF-S doesn't get as involved in play as I would like and my PF- A is a beast, but often he gets sucked too far back into midfield.  I'd like my PF-A to be more of a standard striker, but don't want to disrupt the continuity of the team with this great tactic.  

Link to post
Share on other sites
9 minutes ago, Tcufrog said:

@AceAvenger First off, these tactics are great!  Really enjoying them and have now won the Bundesliga 3 years in a row with 1860 and made serious Champions League runs.

Two questions I have:

1. How can I alter the 4-4-2 gegenpressing formation to suit a player who has great winger traits?  He performs well as an IW, but his productivity was much higher as a winger in previous formations.

2. How would you suggest I alter the duties of the two forwards if I have world beaters here?  I find that my PF-S doesn't get as involved in play as I would like and my PF- A is a beast, but often he gets sucked too far back into midfield.  I'd like my PF-A to be more of a standard striker, but don't want to disrupt the continuity of the team with this great tactic.  

1: Have you tried simply changing the players role to a Winger - Attack?

2: Again, have you tried using any other roles & different combinations? 

Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, retrodude09 said:

1: Have you tried simply changing the players role to a Winger - Attack?

2: Again, have you tried using any other roles & different combinations? 

1. No because as @AceAvenger said this tactic is meant to defend in compact zones.  I'd like to play a W-S on the right, but I wanted to get the board's thoughts before I tried it.

2. I looked into changing the roles, but the pressing intensity on the other striker roles won't be as high as the PF role, hence why I've been hesitant.

I'm looking to try something out, if even in pre-season, but wanted to get some ideas to make sure I know what to look for.

Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Tcufrog said:

1. No because as @AceAvenger said this tactic is meant to defend in compact zones.  I'd like to play a W-S on the right, but I wanted to get the board's thoughts before I tried it.

2. I looked into changing the roles, but the pressing intensity on the other striker roles won't be as high as the PF role, hence why I've been hesitant.

I'm looking to try something out, if even in pre-season, but wanted to get some ideas to make sure I know what to look for.

There are some more Counter-Press strategies. Check out the the total football threat.

Link to post
Share on other sites

This thread has been an amazing read and great help for me. In my current journeyman save I got the Monaco job 3 seasons ago, old squad, needed a complete revamp, but had some base for a gegenpress already. In the first season though I didn't have the time to fix the rest of the squad so I didn't go for it, somehow won the league with a boring 433 mostly due to PSG heavily underperforming and gifting me the title. For the past two seasons though I went deep into the system, and although some players are not yet perfect fits, I've been very happy with the system and how we are playing. Last season we finished 2nd with 89 points, 1 point more than the season before, but 9 points behind a crazy good PSG side that performed to the expectations. Moving on to current season, we are top of the league by Christmas, but barely.

 

The system I've been using is as follow:

FMhJx.png

PIs

Left WB: Cross From Byline, BWM: Shoot Less Often, Winger: Get Further Forward, Cross From Byline, IW: Get Further Forward, AM: Roam From Position, Take More Risks.

 

I've found getting good compactness to be the key, not only vertically but also horizontally. Attacking narrowly makes the counterpressing much more effective, as the players tend to be close together when we lose the ball.

Differently to the OP tactics, I've opted against over/underlapping, I understand it was used to get the mentalities to align, but I found it tends to slow down the attacks, too often the wide players would hold up the ball or go back to the defensive mids to give the fullbacks time to bomb past them, which worked but was not really what I wanted, I still wanted that vertical compactness though, so I went with Wingbacks and a Winger+Inverted Winger. I originally had two IW's, but I found they were all getting in the same areas and occupying spaces I want my AM to do, moving to a winger considerably improved my AM performances, as they get that much more space. My RB isn't that offensively oriented so it doesn't get in the way of the winger too much, in fact they combine amazingly at times and it gives the winger an option back so it doesn't become that one dimensional, always running down the wings and crossing, I also found that when the WB gets further forward the Wingers moves into the channels, and steps into the box a lot, which is very hard to defend against.

Another option I took to give the AM more space is to move from a PF to an AF. Yes, the AF doesn't press as much, but with the instructions it still presses a lot. What it does however is play quite a bit more forward than the PF, always pushing the defensive line back, and opening up space behind in, at the edge of the box.

The rest of the tactic is pretty straightforward I think. Some frequent tweaks are: Segundo Volante over BWM, RPM over DLP, tweaks to the DL/LOE, occasionally Run At Defense/Shoot on Sight/Hit Early Crosses.

League table as of January:

FMi0m.png

 

Main issue is breaking down the super stubborn defensive sides, those who sit deep with 10 men. 2 of the 3 draws were against bottom half teams, and the other one against Rennes. Against our title challenger PSG, we did quite well though:

.FMi9C.png

 

I'm a bit worried that if we struggle to break down more teams, those 0-0's will end up costing the title, so working on that is my next priority.

Link to post
Share on other sites

My strikers all score a fair bit, but the goals are very well distributed, here's the squad sorted by goals scored

FMp8p.png

My main striker is Rodrigo Varanda, but he had a long injury early in the season and just recently got back to fitness, last year he got 33 goals in 42 (2) games in a similar system.

Luckily Alp  Aydin has overperformed my expectations, he was supposed to be a backup but he played so well and developed so much I'm not even sure I should start Varanda over him right now. 

Elsewhere, it's all mostly standard, with the exception of Todibo, who's just a insane in the air and we make the most out of corners and freekicks. Gelson Martins is my right winger, Perdomo is the backup right winger but was also slotted as a striker in a lot of games due to the Varanda injury. Lázaro is the starting Inverted Winger in the other side. 

Due to the heavy physical requeriments of the tactic and lots of suspensions that add up, rotation is a must and as such I don't usually get the top goalscorers in any competition, but I don't mind that at all.

Link to post
Share on other sites

I don't have any particular training method, in terms of individual training it varies a lot, in terms of team training I really like the more generic training sessions instead of specialized ones as I find they make the players the most complete, which is a good thing for me.

I believe you should be signing players that fit your system anyway and focusing on improving them all around instead of signing any high PA player and trying to mold their attributes to fit the system by using overly specific training schedules. That said, most weeks where I can I try to fit one 'Transition - Press' section, as that hits most of the important attributes I want, but other than that it's all 'Overall' 'Outfield' 'Physical' and 'Tactical' sessions. What I find hard to balance is a good mix of training sessions and match preparation sections, cause Teamwork and Attacking Movement preparation improves match performance by a lot. But ye, that's the general ideal of my team training.

In terms of individual training it varies from player to player, but mostly they either do no position training (keep on 'Playing Position') + a specific focus if they have that specific weakness, OR they do position training and no specific focus if that hits their weaknesses better, OR they do 'Playing Position' + no specific focus if they're injury prone (keep the workload lower). What I never do is position training + focus, as that makes the workload too high for players to play and train. For youngsters it's mostly the same things, except I set them to double intensity whenever they're at 80%+ condition. I also try to change the specific focus every 6 months or so, so I usually set at the start of the section and then after the winter transfer window closes.

A lot of players are developing well, here's Soubervie's development over the last 2 seasons and a half, one in the U19's and the past two in the main team. He was at the club when I arrived and was not the most perfect fit, so I had to work on improving his mentals a lot. He turned 19 only 4 months ago, and is now a good homegrown backup option that still has some potential:

FMFCO.png

 

Some examples of players I signed, Mitrov, now 19, was signed two seasons ago, spent the first 6 months on the U19's, was loaned once he turned 18 in january, and is now at the club, playing as the backup CB but also training to cover as a BWM, his attributes were already a much better fit to the kind of player I'm looking for, and he developed brilliantly, training most of the time as a BWM, and then recently training his passing with no specific position:

FMFLO.png

 

The attributes I look for in most players are

Physical: Acceleration, Balance, Natural Fitness, Stamina

Mental: Aggression, Bravery, Antecipation, Concentration, Decisions, Teamwork, Work Rate

Technical: First Touch

Of course you'll really never find a player who has it all, so getting them young and working on the weakness is the way to go, I have some players in my academy I'm really looking forward to develop, for example:

FMFS0.png

He fits most of the attributes I like, only lacking a bit in the physicals, which should grow with time as he's still so young. Technically I'd also like him to be a bit better defensively, hence I'll be training his Marking/Positioning and Acceleration/Pace, switchings between those every 6 months.

FMFVD.png

As an example of a player who does not do the 'No Position' + specific focus training, here's Hebert who has insane mentals for his age, he's so young he's still only training part time, I expect his development to explode once he turns 16 and starts training full time. His physicals are lacking all around and as such for the time being he's training as a box to box mid. Once his physicals develop a little more I'll reaccess but he'll probably be training on those for a while, either as a box to box or with shifting focus between Acceleration/Pace, Agility/Balance and Work Rate/Stamina.

 

Link to post
Share on other sites

Im Back GIFs | Tenor

Sorry guys for going AWOL for over a month, I feel down the rabbit hole that is Age of Empires 2 and Modern Warfare. Now that COD has frustrated me to the point of no return, I think it's time to boot up FM again. I'm so glad to see you guys still kept the discussion going strong about breaking the oppositions spirit by constant harrowing and conquest.

On 09/04/2020 at 08:02, HanziZoloman said:

Of course, I can understand it’s much time. Your idea with the group is great I‘m in. 
I am sorry for your losses against Bayern maybe they knew that Dorsch & co weren’t good enough :D 

just joking.. congratulations for the silverware. The dfb Pokal and runnersup in the League plus L8 in CL is big. I have not been this far with a lower league club.

Great save, I have learnt much! You played mostly the 4411 formation? 

 

I have linked a picture of a 'Härtefall' it means I am not sure to anew the contract, because mentally he is one of the best but technically well not. What do you think as it is your developed system.

Screenshot (9).png
 

edit: during end of the season many players decreased in their ability. Did you suffer this too?

I mostly did use the 4411 with my Heidenheim save but I went for the 442 version more often once I sign Jan Hurtado and had 2 good strikers.

On 10/04/2020 at 18:05, uroszila said:

A very good read indeed. Thanks, @AceAvenger for this, its very inspirational.

I thought a bit about this and we could make a really good challenge from this one. For example:

  1. You need to choose a team in 3. Liga or 2. Bundesliga
  2. You need to use your own tactic (not the one posted in this topic) but with the gegenpress principles mentioned in the opening posts
  3. You have 7 seasons (or 5 seasons if you start in 2. Bundesliga) to win as many trophies as you can
  4. To add a little bit pinch of the salt - you are only allowed to sign players with attribute level at least 12 on the 7 most important attributes for the gegenpress (Aggression, Anticipation, Determination, Teamwork, Work rate, Acceleration, Stamina)

Would anyone be interested in this?

I'm glad you found it inspirational! That sounds like a very interesting offer, maybe we can compare our progress as we go along. I've been inspired myself to give Excel Manager a try though after reading @_Ben_'s amazing career at CD Guadalajara, so I might take a lot longer to get through the seasons.

On 16/04/2020 at 17:36, Pavi said:

Take a bow @AceAvenger. The OG and the whole thread are excellent quality and food for thoughts!

I have been implementing a similar philosophy and tactical approach in my current save with Mainz. Have been using a 442 and a 4411 during my three seasons in charge so far. But thanks to tweaks inspired by your tactic, this year (3rd season) we managed to be consistent and grabbed a UCL spot.

f1b0aaa5d16c3edfb8c1dad82d8c3c05.png

As you, I also take advantage of relegated teams or the AI not granting playing time to young talent who becomes available, so my squad is young but definitely talented. This is my main 442, some slight modification to yours, but I really have to thank you for the inputs and the insight. I have also started to take much more attention to certain attributes when recruiting and am excited to use this approach for the following seasons.

539a234a80cd6aff3d8bf957bba737e3.png

 

 

 

Phenomenal stuff! It's amazing what you did later on in the Champions League aswell, taking so many formidable scalps.

On 23/04/2020 at 16:29, Djuicer said:

Remove the overlap right/left TI. You dont want players holding on to the ball, potentially stalling the attack.

U6NNX3t.jpg

 

EDIT: Its a trade off though. Removing it decreases compactness down the flanks. Which you want for the pressing game.

I actually never considered this, what I though is that it just decreases the wingers mentality. This would definitely mean he would be more cautious on the ball, hence more likely to hold it up, but I had the idea that if his base mentality (Individual+Team) was high enough, even after the decrease the wingers mentality would still be high enough to be adventurous with the ball. If this TI does something additionally, other than just decrease the mentality, such as makes the winger hold up the ball, like the hold up ball PI, then that would definitely be undesirable.

I will definitely experiment with this.

On 28/04/2020 at 20:35, smithy20 said:

@AceAvenger  Is there any PI you like ti implement and use if any?

The only PIs I set were for the AMC, which was dribble more and move into channels, if I recall correctly.

On 18/05/2020 at 19:35, Tcufrog said:

@AceAvenger First off, these tactics are great!  Really enjoying them and have now won the Bundesliga 3 years in a row with 1860 and made serious Champions League runs.

Two questions I have:

1. How can I alter the 4-4-2 gegenpressing formation to suit a player who has great winger traits?  He performs well as an IW, but his productivity was much higher as a winger in previous formations.

2. How would you suggest I alter the duties of the two forwards if I have world beaters here?  I find that my PF-S doesn't get as involved in play as I would like and my PF- A is a beast, but often he gets sucked too far back into midfield.  I'd like my PF-A to be more of a standard striker, but don't want to disrupt the continuity of the team with this great tactic.  

Definitely give W(a) a try, it'll reduce horizontal compactness, but if your players perform better why not. You could even try WM(a) and put the PIs that would make the role the same as a winger, minus stay wider, or even DW(s) but remove looks for overlap and select the focus play down left/right TIs to increase their mentality.

___

As for the future, I've decided to go for a career with TSV 1860 Munich, with a focus on youth development and an aim to develop a conveyor belt of Gegenpressing machines. The goal is to be like the Red Bull empire, constantly unearthing gems from around the world and having a distinct footballing identity. Tactically, I'll be focusing on the managerial wunderkind that is Julian Nagelsmann, as well as looking at the revival Bayern are having under Hansi Flick. 

Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, AceAvenger said:

Im Back GIFs | Tenor

Sorry guys for going AWOL for over a month, I feel down the rabbit hole that is Age of Empires 2 and Modern Warfare. Now that COD has frustrated me to the point of no return, I think it's time to boot up FM again. I'm so glad to see you guys still kept the discussion going strong about breaking the oppositions spirit by constant harrowing and conquest.

I mostly did use the 4411 with my Heidenheim save but I went for the 442 version more often once I sign Jan Hurtado and had 2 good strikers.

I'm glad you found it inspirational! That sounds like a very interesting offer, maybe we can compare our progress as we go along. I've been inspired myself to give Excel Manager a try though after reading @_Ben_'s amazing career at CD Guadalajara, so I might take a lot longer to get through the seasons.

Phenomenal stuff! It's amazing what you did later on in the Champions League aswell, taking so many formidable scalps.

I actually never considered this, what I though is that it just decreases the wingers mentality. This would definitely mean he would be more cautious on the ball, hence more likely to hold it up, but I had the idea that if his base mentality (Individual+Team) was high enough, even after the decrease the wingers mentality would still be high enough to be adventurous with the ball. If this TI does something additionally, other than just decrease the mentality, such as makes the winger hold up the ball, like the hold up ball PI, then that would definitely be undesirable.

I will definitely experiment with this.

The only PIs I set were for the AMC, which was dribble more and move into channels, if I recall correctly.

Definitely give W(a) a try, it'll reduce horizontal compactness, but if your players perform better why not. You could even try WM(a) and put the PIs that would make the role the same as a winger, minus stay wider, or even DW(s) but remove looks for overlap and select the focus play down left/right TIs to increase their mentality.

___

As for the future, I've decided to go for a career with TSV 1860 Munich, with a focus on youth development and an aim to develop a conveyor belt of Gegenpressing machines. The goal is to be like the Red Bull empire, constantly unearthing gems from around the world and having a distinct footballing identity. Tactically, I'll be focusing on the managerial wunderkind that is Julian Nagelsmann, as well as looking at the revival Bayern are having under Hansi Flick. 

@AceAvenger Great idea to get started with 1860, they're a fun team and I've used them for years now.  Already looking forward to your updates!  I just finished my 2030-2031 season, won the Bundesliga for the third time in a row and my second German Cup.  Finished as runners up in the Champions league last year after getting smashed by Chelsea 3-0, and got knocked out by Barca this year in the semis.  Overall very happy with your tactic, just now trying to tweak a bit to better fit my squad.

I'm reading the total football forums trying to get some ideas for my next season.  I really like the idea of an IWB creating more action in midfield to then unlock the opposite side of the formation.  For example, I'm thinking I can ditch the PF-S and play a DM-S in the DMC position, a MEZ- A or S in the LCM position, and a RPM -S in the RCM position.  Just not sure if I want an IW-S or W-S on the right side.  I want to stay compact on the right to open up the left.

 

 

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • 3 weeks later...
On 20/05/2020 at 19:27, AceAvenger said:

As for the future, I've decided to go for a career with TSV 1860 Munich, with a focus on youth development and an aim to develop a conveyor belt of Gegenpressing machines. The goal is to be like the Red Bull empire, constantly unearthing gems from around the world and having a distinct footballing identity. Tactically, I'll be focusing on the managerial wunderkind that is Julian Nagelsmann, as well as looking at the revival Bayern are having under Hansi Flick. 

Fantastic thread, I just went through it. Did you give this a go then?

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • 2 weeks later...

@AceAvenger Any update yet on your new 1860 save?  Very interested to hear how you're coming along.

I got interested in Pep's total football and messed around with that, but the results were nothing close to the gegenpress you built.  The goal-scoring potential with the 4-4-2 you created is insane - definitely happy with it and will be going back to it now after I've won 4 straight Bundesliga titles.  Now I just need to win he CL.  I finally have the players to do it (I think).

I have some great CB's coming through that have excellent BPD traits.  Might get creative and try 2 BPDs...

Link to post
Share on other sites

@dekzeh Sorry I haven‘t noticed your reply. Thank you, your training looks really good and I feel inspired, will try it out. You describe it very precise and that is what I needed, many questions are answered. 
I still have a Gegenpress focus but I change formation every game as I am trying to implement the approach from the Tactic Gymnastic Thread.

before I had two formations and usually struggled against the Glasgow Clubs (playing with Hearts) and against the parked busses. My players don’t have the individual quality, hearts were relegated in real life. With the approach adapting to opponents strategy I am more successful and can dominate games even against rangers. Now I have to implement training, trying to prepare for the match with specific training in the second part of the week.

@AceAvenger yeah! How are you right now?

Edited by HanziZoloman
Link to post
Share on other sites
  • 2 weeks later...
  • 4 weeks later...

How did you get on with this playing style in your season? I am very interested in how you got on in Europe. This post is very well done. Thank you!! 

Link to post
Share on other sites

Awesome thread, need the patience with my squad to try and get this to work because I love the Leipzig playing philosophy. How would you set it up to be more like how they played under Hassenhutl? Their directness was truly wonderful to watch, and now he’s doing it at Southampton again. 

Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.

×
×
  • Create New...