Discussing FM20 Match Engine, and anything else, I suppose.

[Tyburn]

Having been very vocal on the feedback thread these last couple of weeks it has been beautifully bought to my attention that a lot of what I have to say is not acceptable in that particular thread.

I completely get this.

So if you, like me, have anything and everything you want to discuss about the game in a civil, polite and constructive manner, that doesn’t suit being on the feedback thread, then perhaps this thread can be somewhere we can do this without fear of being reprimanded, ridiculed or shut down. Somewhere to actually discuss the game, not just leave feedback, as the feedback thread already does that.  

I’ll start. 

I’m having a great time with FM20. I’ve seen all the issues a lot of forum users have seen but after 8 seasons now of honing a tactic(s) I feel like I’m getting quite a bit of joy out of the presentation the ME is offering me. I don’t see many set pieces, I don’t concede many, etc etc. I strongly believe the ME will show us what we put into it, both from managing our clubs, to tactical choices to, well, everything and anything actually. All of it makes a difference.

I’ve said it before, but I actually believe this ME to be the most sophisticated I’ve seen in all CM’s/FM’s. So much more of the actual management now feels to me to be represented in what the ME shows us. Of course watching your ST miss chance after chance doesn’t seem a good way for the game to tell us we’ve made a bad choice or decision. But in my opinion, that is what I feel is happening. It’s not a coincidence to me that when I have a tough decision to make outside of the ME, if I make the wrong one (according to the game) then the ME, with my usually great working and looking tactic, starts showing me all sorts of horrors, like two goals in 5 mins from IFK’s for instance.

Does anybody else feel this way about the game, ME and how they’re now seemingly more interlinked? Does anybody else believe that the ME shows us what we give it? Not just tactically, but managerially?

It’s been pointed out to me that this has always been in the game, which I agree with, but now I feel the ME responds in a much more sophisticated way. Brutal at times, definitely. And ugly. This I believe needs a big improvement. The ME showing us something is wrong, in either our tactics or decision making needs to look better. But, when you get it all right, I’ve had the ME show me my strategy and philosophies in a much more beautiful way than ever before.

Is it just me?

Please don’t shut me down. I just want to be able to have a discussion about this.

 

[99]

Like you, I'm having a great time with FM20. 

But if you watch real life football like me, even literaly at the stadium of your team, you see what drives football, it's passion to the highest level, to the level it could be considered crazy, and I admit I'm one of them. What I wanna say with this is that heated, passionated, very exaggerated (to both sides) discussions do exist and will always exist.

In Football Manager it's not different. It's football, it's passionate to those who win, it's frustrating to those who loose. Heck many times it's frustrating even to those who win! You see football being played on the pitch, you wanna shout to them!

I don't dismiss critiscism to the ME. I think some of it is unfair, but since we're talking about football, I started to "understand" those shouts of people that say "it is broken!!". Ofcourse it's not, but that doesn't mean the person who said that has any bad intention, quite the opposite.

There's nothing alike Football Manager right now. It's not perfect, it will never be perfect, but I am grateful it does exist and so I thank SI for their work, which I proudly support. My (and everyone's) support can't be taken for granted, tho.

Edited March 8, 2020 by 99

[Pattric_b]

Everyone has different opinions on the game and theres nothing wrong with you enjoying it. 

Personally I feel like the ME needs to be improved but I don't agree with many people saying its completely broken or unplayable. I feel it's too easy and too easy to make a working tactic that will get you results on the fly. There are styles of play that I would like to play but are currently not achievable in this ME but it's understandable. A lot of people forget this is just a game at the end of the day and it's never going to be like real life. People need to have realistic expectations.

But my biggest gripe with the game is the fact that I get bored a lot more now than ever before. Honestly I don't think it's the games fault though. The game does a great job at replicating football in the real world and I think that is the problem that a lot of people have with the game. The sport has changed A LOT the past 5 years with the introduction of VAR, social media playing a significant role in the game, agents getting in players ears to complain about contracts, stupid trasnfer fees, brexit, etc. FM is different because the sport itself has changed and I think a lot of the people who don't like the game anymore dislike it because they don't like the direction the sport is heading. Nostalgia plays a huge role with a lot of people who complain about the game. 

In the future I really would like to see a much more customizable player role. Or even the option to not use a player role at all just use team instructions to give your players a guideline to how you want them to play. Sometimes I feel as though player roles can restrict a player and never let them truly have the freedom I wish. For example, we all know how Messi plays in real life. He doesn't really have a definitive player role as they are in FM. So if you could just put him in your desired position and let him play his natural game, but within the team instructions you set, I would love that. This will probably never happen but I can only dream lol

 

[Ultras500]

I find it better this year than previous years. My biggest gripe with the ME has been the number of sitters missed in games. Soooo many times I have actually questioned if my players have ever actually played before but this year seems to show more "realistic" football than before. So i guess i am finding it more exciting.

I saw people complaining about one on one situations in the game and laughed as i have found that an issue for years. Over a season i would say my teams have missed 90% of One on Ones but i have always put it down to the limitation of what the ME can show.

Edit - when players dwell on the ball. You can see what is coming a million miles off and you can bet your life the AI doesn't miss one on ones.

Tackles are another thing that need a revamp, almost impossible to tell when to appeal. Had one today, opposition player had the ball, my player tackles him wins the ball and opposition player is sent off for "a horrendous and shocking tackle"... nobody went to ground, not entirely sure what he tackled but the press were adement it was a red.

Edited March 8, 2020 by Ultras500

[ajw10]

This game is bad, really bad.

I didn't like 19 all that much but I still had two enjoyable saves on that game. On 20, the furthest I've gotten into a season is just over one. I've barely played this game in comparison to any other FM I have bought. I'd like to tell you about the new features but I've not played this game long enough to notice.

It's just so dull. Strikers being so useless makes this game not enjoyable at all. I don't have to worry about coming up against the likes of Aguero because they pose very really threat. I need to worry more about Stones or Maguire from set pieces. I don't feel that anything I do even matters.

All the goals like the same. It's either a cross to a winger or a cross from a set piece. 

I would be a lot happier if SI weren't so dismissive. I have found that the recent posts coming from Neil (And I don't blame Neil for them) have left a very bitter taste.

As well as the lacklustre ME, I've found that the many UI bugs make this game more frustrating. Every time I load the game I have to change the size of the text. Last year it took SI months to fix the continue game timeout bug. 

I feel (and have done for the last couple of FMs) that there's a real lack of attention and care put into parts of this game. It feels like lots of attention and care is put into new features leaving the UI and ME very neglected. Yes, there's been more updates than usual, but they feel very reactive.

I'll stick this game out for a little longer but if I see no real change I won't bother. This will be the first FM where I feel like I haven't gotten my money's worth and it'll take a minor miracle for me to part with any money for FM 21.

[Tyburn]

I’m interested to know more about why some of us are enjoying FM20, are scoring all types of goals, are even seeing some good centralised build up play, are not conceding set piece, or scoring set piece after set piece and why some of us are.

I understand the frustrations you must be feeling @ajw10 but why is it that you’re having this experience, when I for instance, am not?

I’m no tactical genius. I posted up a tactic on the feedback thread, that incidentally got zero comments on, even though everything else I seemed to put up there got jumped on almost as quickly as I wrote it, and I want to know why that is the case. Certain forum members asked to see it, and then, silence. At least tell me why it works. Because honestly I feel like I’ve fluked it to a certain extent. Although in fairness I do have other tactical philosophies that also seem to let the ME show me something a bit like I’d expect. It’s taken me a lot of time and patience to get the ME as it is for me. Multiple tactics through multiple seasons on one save.

I simply do not concede goals only by set pieces. I concede from all types of goals. Honestly. Not one type of goal I concede stands out more than another. Am I just not paying close enough attention? I mean, it’s possible. But I don’t think that’s the case. Because we’re programmed to instinctively see patterns when they occur. Or is it that I’ve somehow managed, through managerial decisions AND a balanced tactic to get the ME to not show me all of these “issues”?

I’ll say it again. I do not doubt they exist, but I believe they are being shown to us because of something. A bad decision, a bad tactical combination etc. It could be anything, and perhaps that is the greatest source of frustration. The randomness of it all. But for me that is the beauty. Trying to work out what the issue is, why it’s happening and how to try and fix it. 

If Pep knew all the answers for City this season they’d be challenging more. Personally, they got incredibly unlucky with injuries. Sane and Laporte are both world class players. To be out for so long sent a ripple through the club. Not replacing Kompany, a club legend and captain was also a big mistake. Now on the pitch, they’re still dominating games. But look at the stats, all those shots on goal, the ball possession etc and yet they draw 1-1. Or worse lose 1-0. This is reality. This isn’t FM.

How the ME shows us our issues could definitely be done better. But why they are there is for us to try and work out and solve. I’ve managed it. And although experienced in the series I’m no tactical wizard. 

I believe that as a community we are finding it difficult to get our heads around a new direction in the way the game outside, and the ME are linked. Of course it’s just my opinion. 

Yes central play perhaps needs looking at, as does all of the final 3rd play. But lots can be mitigated already via tactics, but also decision making outside of the ME.

And it will all get better, I have no doubt, in the following years to come.

The games are always full of bugs. Annoying perhaps, compounding of all the other issues, sure. But none of them actually stop us from playing the game, do they? They haven’t for me anyway.

[MBarbaric]

36 minuti fa, Tyburn ha scritto:

I posted up a tactic on the feedback thread, that incidentally got zero comments on,

Problem with these reports (good or bad) is that people don't actually know about football as much as they think. Numerous times people complain about being FM'd and 99% of the time these make no sense. Numerous times people complain about finishing thinking something is an easy chance while in reality it is far from it. Numerous times people complain how impossible the ME is because their striker missed 10 chances in a row. we, as human beings, aren't really good at understanding probabilities and randomness and these forums are great example. Imagine a policeman, a civil engineer, rocket scientist, footballer trying to explain a professional carpenter how his work should look like. That is what these forums are. It is really difficult for SI to go through all that either taking it seriously or digging deeper inot it. I believe some of it is worth the time but most of the time they know much better than most of the people around here.

However, as a professional analyst I can absolutely assure you there are problems with:

- how the play is created in general 

- how the space is used

- how the ball is controlled

- how the passing selection is made

The above only relates to positional attacks. It might sound counter intuitive to majority, but counter attacks are even worst although you never hear anyone complain about that. There is absolutely no way to influence them whatsoever. However, that isn't really a priority for the game at the moment and, as overall offensive phase develops, counter attacks will pick up. Goalkicks are another sore thumb in the ME but that is also not so important. However, things pile up.

I'd really be interested to see examples of what you, or anyone else for that matter, thinks is a good central play and we can go through it. 

I understand this might come across as a bit patronizing, I apologize for that, I just don't know how to word it better.

Edited March 8, 2020 by MBarbaric

[baris28]

I believe this game has problem -if intentional or not- to confuse players. Maybe is about to show to grognard and common players how complicated game is. Who knows. Ex: pressing instruction should have at most global settings or should be achieved by roles. By complicating game with toys won't make it enjoyable for player. At least for me. There is another problem about the simulation about how goals scored. But It is difficult to hide  problems AI vs AI or human vs AI play from forever.

Edited March 8, 2020 by baris28

[MBarbaric]

11 minuti fa, baris28 ha scritto:

Ex: pressing instruction should have at most global settings or should be achieved by roles.

exactly, most people wouldn't know where, how, why, with whome... they want to press. paradoxically, it works in the ME despite the fact that 90% of playerbase have no idea about how pressing works. so how would one explain that?

partially due to the fact it is indeed a global setting to an extent. The other part is because the possession phase doesn't really work as it does in real so you don't really need fancy settings anyway.

Edited March 8, 2020 by MBarbaric

[SpS_Zen]

The ME is an updated version of FM 19 with similar issues, but overall improvement. It is still bad in my opinion. 

[Pasonen]

44 minutes ago, MBarbaric said:

I'd really be interested to see examples of what you, or anyone else for that matter, thinks is a good central play. 

I dont have examples on me at the moment (I'm on my phone) but the way I see it there are four things affecting central play atm. 

1) Logic of risk and reward when passed. No or rare passes from between cm's to amc or st. Or between fb's - dc.

2) theres not enough coded realistic pass combinations like one-twos. Too little coded passing directions?

3) When ball carrier dribbles own team members dont know how to support these runs, are reacting too slowly or dont move at all.

4) St's react to loose balls cleared from defense too slowly. St's are too passive when defending and attacking overall. When attacking movement from channel to channel is very minimal.

 

Update. Have to add that if this is central play is going to get better defense need to improve too. Theres too much space between the lines in the final third and I think first touches are too good atm. I know technical players are very good with the ball but still even them make mistakes with the ball all the time. 

Edited March 8, 2020 by Pasonen

[ajw10]

10 minutes ago, Pasonen said:

I dont have examples on me at the moment (I'm on my phone) but the way I see it there are four things affecting central play atm. 

1) Logic of risk and reward when passed. No or rare passes from between cm's to amc or st. Or between fb's - dc.

2) theres not enough coded realistic pass combinations like one-twos. Too little coded passing directions?

3) When ball carrier dribbles own team members dont know how to support these runs, are reacting too slowly or dont move at all.

4) St's react to loose balls cleared from defense too slowly. St's are too passive when defending and attacking overall. When attacking movement from channel to channel is very minimal.

Wide players often shoot instead of crossing which also has a big impact

[Pasonen]

2 minutes ago, ajw10 said:

Wide players often shoot instead of crossing which also has a big impact

And they force crosses way way too often. 

[sporadicsmiles]

4 hours ago, Tyburn said:

I strongly believe the ME will show us what we put into it, both from managing our clubs, to tactical choices to, well, everything and anything actually. All of it makes a difference.

If you put nonsense into the ME, you will get nonsense out. There are plenty of examples of people using unbalanced tactics with no thought put into them, and getting poor results. This has happened in every iteration of FM you care to name. And will happen in all the future iterations too. 

However this only tells part of the story. The ME produces too many goals from crosses. Whether they be crosses in play or set pieces. This is not a user thing, because you will see the exact same things in AI vs AI games. I know, because I have checked, because I wanted to find out if it was my tactical setup or the game that was leading to me seeing so many crosses being scored. It is the current ME that produces it, since this is common to all AI vs AI games. Close to 50% of goals scored in the ME come from crosses, across all teams. You can check this on your own saves, if you are willing to go and watch 5-10 full fixture dates to build up the numbers. You can also check the bug forum for the ME, which has many of these issues pointed out and labelled as "known issue". Which means this is not just users who cannot play the game, but something the devs are aware of two. 

Now this is problematic for a number of reasons. The first being that tactics are subservient to how well you can cross the ball in the current ME. While you can play with different styles, there is nothing like the flexibility we had in FM19 in terms of what you can do successfully. While it is entirely possible to find ways to win, and win easily, I have never felt so much like I was playing against the engine rather than playing football against a computer. While you still have to play to counter whoever you are playing, you also have to factor in the ME and its proclivities. Which is not what we want. That is not a good simulation. In a good simulation, you should not feel the simulation. You can feel this is the case this year if you go to the tactics forums. We are used to getting a bunch of good threads of people emulating real life teams, making specific tactics, talking about how to do this and how to do that. We have one thread like that at the moment. This is the sign of a sick ME. 

Now do not get me wrong, it is entirely possible to play this game, to win and have success. I have done so, because I know how to design tactics and implement ideas. The point is that you just do not replicate the ideas you want. A balanced tactic will do well, but for the wrong reasons. 

The crossing is a symptom of wider issues. Probably the main one is the almost complete lack of movement from strikers in the attacking phase. This is similar to FM19 on launch, where every striker role sticks to the shoulder of a defender and waits for a ball that never comes. This is not how football works. A F9 and a AF should not behave the same in the attacking phase. And they do. They behave very differently in an attacking transition, but that is it. If you watch any game of football you will not see three attacking players standing motionless waiting for something to happen.

This, in turn, makes it almost impossible to play any kind of scheme where you want to create central space. For example, I have used the DLF(S)/CM(A) pairing for years now to create space and score goals. The idea being the DLF(S) drops deeper, drags a defender, and the CM(A) runs into that space and scores. Now clearly this will not happen all the time, but in FM20 it is so rare I can probably count the number of times I have seen this on one hand. The same goes for any idea like this - you can have similar ideas with an IF(A), for example. And you can add on countless other role combinations that work in a similar way. Pairings where the attacker moves higher up the pitch to create space in front of the defence are better, but then the striker does not have enough movement for this to work either. This is why there is a huge lack of central play in the game (another known issue reported on the bug forums). 

These issues are, I think, deeply ingrained into the ME, and are very hard to fix. Which is why they aren't. And I do not blame SI for that. They cannot rewrite their ME for a patch. And I fear that is what they will need to do. They have been adding complexity for years, and there comes a point where that complexity overwhelms the ability to make changes easily. Every iteration of the ME this year has had some weirdness and suboptimal aspects. I actually think that the current ME is the worst after the one we had in beta where you scored at least one long shot per game.

Do not get me wrong, I am glad you are enjoying the game. I am making an effort to do the same, since there is no other choice (except not playing at all). We should not let this distract from the fact that this ME lets the entire game down, and has some fundamental flaws. And I would strongly recommend that if you have found a way to produce nice football, with varied goals and realistic play, to go and make a post about it on the tactics forums. Explain your reasoning, show pkms and guide others to be able to do the same. I would be interested in seeing it, and I have already thought about starting a thread where people discuss how they are playing and show examples of matches so others can see what each person does and how it looks in the game. This is the way you are going to help people to appreciate FM20. Because, unfortunately, I predict this thread will quickly descend into chaos and be closed. 

[Tyburn]

Excellent posts guys!

This is absolutely what I hoped for.

I also live in hope, not for arguments or chaos, but for detailed and constructive discussion on this subject and others, as has been demonstrated to this point. 

@MBarbaric Not patronising at all. I’m getting some great visualisations from the ME with regards to counter attacks. Fluid, short build up in my defensive third, a killer ball into space to my IW(a), a cross field through ball to my W(a) who, depending on position is either first time shooting it or squaring it to my AF. Or visa versa with any of my front 3. Pretty much what I’d hoped for with the tactic.

With regards to central play, that I notice you have a good amount to say about on the forums, I have to confess to not actually be looking too much for this in my current set up. What I will say, in using 2 CM(auto) is that I get a variety of play in the final 3rd. Often, against the majority of weaker teams the ball will naturally work its way out wide. Now this I’d expect for teams that defend narrow and deep. It makes perfect sense for the ball to work it’s way out there for me. However often it will then work its way back into the middle, just outside the box where my CM’s will often cycle or one two with my ST before looking for a killer pass into the box, or a shot, or work it out wide again. Like I say, it’s not that I’m looking for this play. This is what I see happening, which seems to me to be a direct result of the defence of the opposition more than my instructions for my attack. Either way. It’s not as big a concern for me, as maybe it is for others. 

Pass selection feels more reactive to the situation rather than proactive and I do believe this needs looking at.

@sporadicsmiles I do agree that crosses are extremely prevalent in this version. In fact I think they were last year too. However what I am seeing is a variety of crossing. A fair few to the back post, but often to my ST and a good amount of pull backs to my ST, where the wingers or full backs have learnt to do this rather than just running into the near post and it going out for a goal kick.

I agree you shouldn’t feel the simulation, or rather see it. But I still stand by that this could be due to some coding that is tangled between decision making from the user and then how that is interpreted by the engine. Because often, some whole games, but mainly patches, I’m seeing some great football realising my vision.

Perhaps I feel my ST is moving ok, not perfectly (as I said before it would be great to see him bend his runs once in a while) because I am mainly playing a counter style, given the chance, and that comes down to transition build up, rather than ‘we’ve arrived at the bus, now what?’.

Yes the ME has flaws, of course, and again I agree with you that this last ME is probably the worse. I was pretty cautious of commenting on the ‘issues’ I saw in the ME when first released. Partly because it was new, and I’ll always give a ME some time, some patience, to try different things, to see what looks good and what doesn’t (not what wins, winning is irrelevant at this point). But mainly because I was having fun with it. It was a bit crazy at times, but some of the countering that could be achieved was awesome to watch. Now, it’s all been dulled down a bit. Not unplayable in the slightest. Just a little bit ... greyer.

I always find a system, every year, that works. Not just winning (but let’s face it we all want to win) but one that does it in the most pleasing and realistic way any iteration of the ME can give us. Winning isn’t an issue. It’s the last part that takes time and patience for me to achieve.

This year so far I’ve found a couple of set ups I’m relatively happy with. I think in FM19 I had 3, maybe 4 at a push that ticked all the boxes. But it’s only March. I’m sure I can squeeze more out of it.

Yes. Problems with the ME. But definitely not game breaking.

Great idea about a catch all thread for tactics that you feel ‘work’ (again, not winning, but getting the ME to look good). I’d definitely contribute to it if you set one up.

[ferrarinseb]

The Problem with ME is that, It just can't / couldn't replicate some movement with intelligence when the ball reaches final third. 

this is like a issue one connects with another then another and so on. 

The Points i'm making is based on my experineces on FM 20 and a very less but enough to be frustrated with FM 19 time.

A) Your Wide forwards often stick to their Couner part Defenders(i.e AMR with LB and AML with RB) which makes it work if they are not narrow but given they (LB and RB) stick narrow. It doesn't help to stretch wide for Opposition Area in terms of over load. In Counter attacking phase we have space to operate but in Posession phase its the Job to create this space which the ME doesn't allow  or replicate. We don't see a Wide forward hugging the line until he get the ball either into feet or into space behind RB/LB in an attempt to stretch the defense. 

B) This connected with the Free space left wide for Exploiting the Wide players left which are the wing backs who see the space and run into it

C) A and B scenario's caused the Players in middle who see space wide just circulating the ball out wide in order to progress the ball forward. 

Now to the Striker. The Biggest Gripe of all. Its the Area where we feel often striker should come deep / Go forward depending on duty. But he doesn't do any of this. The reason could be connected to A and B as well.

Bottom line is If we look entire game via Stats its absolutely doing every thing as it should but how its achieving is the Problem some thing we don't have or atleast not as much as we do have like in  FM 19 and 20 in the Prior Version i.e Pre FM 18. 

 

[alian62]

Hasn't the ME topic been discussed to death . Think its well known about all the issues 

[CityAndColour]

1 hour ago, prot651 said:

Hasn't the ME topic been discussed to death . Think its well known about all the issues 

Yes I'm not sure we needed another thread and 1000 words for someone to say "I'm enjoying the game so it's probably your tactics".

[Icy]

The main issue is for sure the static attack phase, if you have a team that strikes fast (quick tempo/long passes) you probably won't notice it as much, but if you have an slow build control tactic then it becomes really noticeable for some reasons:

1) Strikers are totally static once the reach the area front and engage a defenseman, they get glued to each other. In the transition phase you can see the differences between AF, DLF, F9 etc but not once they reach the area. In real life, strikers move side to side and back to find space or to open it for team mates, unless they are back to goal targetmen. See Bencema or Messi, that are more DLF or even traquartista/F9 that do not stop moving between lines and/or sides and play 1 on 2 all the time in real life, you won't see that kind of movement in FM.

2) Lack of 1 on 2 passes, that is the most usual way to break defenses in current football. Strikers move back and play 1 on 2 passes with midfielders on between them all the time.

3) Lack of through balls between the defenders from skilled midfielders , that of course should get intercepted a lot, but they still should try.

4) Teams mentalities are too defensive and they defend close to the area and narrow, that limit the spaces in the middle. This part of FM could be realistic (not for top teams) but because the issues 1, 2 and 3 written above,  the attacking teams have no tools to break them in.

5) 1 2 3 and 4 lead to players passing to the wide players most of the time as these are the only unmarked players, that leads to too much crosses. Then crosses and wide play in general has their own issues like:

        5.a) too many floated crosses and headers over the top from strikers even if their anticipation, jumping and heading attribute are high.

        5.b) too many goals scored from small players at the far post that are unmarked due to the narrow defenses.

        5.c) too many unrealistic volleys from outside the area from wide players at the opposite side with highlight goals from fullbacks with low attributes that shouldn't pull them that frequently.

        5.d) too many corners

        5.e) stupid offside calls from wide players like fullbacks.

Due to all above, the games look dull and you can't really appreciate the differences between players attributes so the games end won/lost because set pieces, crosses to far post, unrealistic volleys or shoots from outside the area.

What frustrates me the most is that we had strikers movement, 1 on 2 passes and through balls before FM19, and I wonder why we can't have them back. With these back in the game plus AI GMs not playing as defensively, most of the problems would be gone.

I know I'm vocal in the other thread, but it's because I'm really frustrated about a game that is the best ever outside the ME but that has gone back displaying the action and allowing you to try different tactics vs old versions. You feel like in rails, fighting with the ME limitations above, you can try to design a winning tactic avoiding these limitations, but it's frustrating if you want your team to play outside these rails.

Edited March 9, 2020 by Icy

[Luizinho]

16 minutes ago, Icy said:

The main issue is for sure the static attack phase, if you have a team that strikes fast (quick tempo/long passes) you probably won't notice it as much, but if you have an slow build control tactic then it becomes really noticeable for some reasons:

1) Strikers are totally static once the reach the area front and engage a defenseman, they get glued to each other. In the transition phase you can see the differences between AF, DLF, F9 etc but not once they reach the area. In real life, strikers move side to side and back to find space or to open it for team mates, unless they are back to goal targetmen. See Bencema or Messi, that are more DLF or even traquartista/F9 that do not stop moving between lines and/or sides and play 1 on 2 all the time in real life, you won't see that kind of movement in FM.

2) Lack of 1 on 2 passes, that is the most usual way to break defenses in current football. Strikers move back and play 1 on 2 passes with midfielders on between them all the time.

3) Lack of through balls between the defenders from skilled midfielders , that of course should get intercepted a lot, but they still should try.

4) Teams mentalities are too defensive and they defend close to the area and narrow, that limit the spaces in the middle. This part of FM could be realistic (not for top teams) but because the issues 1, 2 and 3 written above,  the attacking teams have no tools to break them in.

5) 1 2 3 and 4 lead to players passing to the wide players most of the time as these are the only unmarked players, that leads to too much crosses. Then crosses and wide play in general has their own issues like:

        5.a) too many floated crosses and headers over the top from strikers even if their anticipation, jumping and heading attribute are high.

        5.b) too many goals scored from small players at the far post that are unmarked due to the narrow defenses.

        5.c) too many unrealistic volleys from outside the area from wide players at the opposite side with highlight goals from fullbacks with low attributes that shouldn't pull them that frequently.

        5.d) too many corners

        5.e) stupid offside calls from wide players like fullbacks.

Due to all above, the games look dull and you can't really appreciate the differences between players attributes so the games end won/lost because set pieces, crosses to far post, unrealistic volleys or shoots from outside the area.

What frustrates me the most is that we had strikers movement, 1 on 2 passes and through balls before FM19, and I wonder why we can't have them back. With these back in the game plus AI GMs not playing as defensively, most of the problems would be gone.

I know I'm vocal in the other thread, but it's because I'm really frustrated about a game that is the best ever outside the ME but that has gone back displaying the action and allowing you to try different tactics vs old versions. You feel like in rails, fighting with the ME limitations above, you can try to design a winning tactic avoiding these limitations, but it's frustrating if you want your team to play outside these rails.

This is a very good post and I echo everything said. I really hope these issues are the priority for SI on the next edition.
 

Its so frustrating that you can’t use certain styles/tactics, due to the limitation of the ME. That’s the main reason why I play, so that I can build interesting tactics and this current ME has zapped all enjoyment out of the game in this area (for me).

Edited March 9, 2020 by Luizinho

[Lucas]

6 hours ago, prot651 said:

Hasn't the ME topic been discussed to death . Think its well known about all the issues 

Pretty much. 

This thread is just repeating similar themes already expressed in the feedback thread. It's not really adding any insight to be repeating the same points over and over, with some agreeing or disagreeing. 

If there's specific areas to discuss about tactics, we have an entire forum for that, and don't need a mega "catch-all" thread about Tactics.

If you have specific examples of bugs, there is a ME bugs forum too.

Of course, with respect to areas of improvement in the match engine this is something we will continue to work on as always.

For the above reasons I'll close this thread - there is already other places you can express your opinions above. Please use those. 

Thanks.