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Norfair

Who would you play out of these two newgen central defenders?

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I'm having a really difficult time with this one. Gillian de Baas has been with the club (Everton) for 10 years and has held his CD spot without question ever since he arrived. He has been one of the club's most important players, hasn't been out with injury too much, and scores a decent amount of goals with his head. He's brave as a lion, reliable as an ox and just generally has all the qualities that you can ask from a central defender. No other player has been with me longer and he is clearly a favorite with the manager.

But he's getting up there in age, and some physical attributes are starting to drop. His stamina was dropping at an alarming rate following a 3 week injury a few months ago and now I'm wondering if his free fall is gonna start this season. We're 6-7 games in.

David Estenssoro on the other hand has been with the club 3 years. He came dirt cheap from the Argentinian league at £5 mill. He is a really good player too but has had a hard time getting into the regular starting 11. His average rating, for what little he's played, is on par with de Baas', but the sample isn't high enough to rely on imo. There are a few differences between the two, as you can see. Estenssoro is better at the classic defender tasks such as marking and tackling, has higher teamwork and work rate, and his physical stats won't be dropping anytime soon. de Baas is ahead on a lot of important mental attributes, but Estenssoro is ahead on a few as well.

With no more info given, who would you gravitate towards playing? We have two CD spots in the team and I can't play both as we have a third guy who is untouchable as of now. I'd be really interested to see the forum's thoughts on this one.

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Two great defenders there! I’d personally be picking David because his technical attributes are better and the mental and physicals are very similar. 

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De Baas will drop off physically, but probably slowly thanks to his high natural fitness all round though. His extra anticipation and concentration can help compensate for being slightly slower.

Estenssoro is just marginally better for a side that likes to play out the back though. 

Factors we can't see like consistency and whether one of them commits lots of fouls can be decisive when comparing between two very good defenders too.

You can play them both in the same team though!

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It's very close, but for me De Baas's anticipation, bravery and concentration being far superior would give him the edge for me. Estenssoro has plenty of time to take over when De Baas fully declines.

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Interesting responses so far. Glad to see about a 50/50 outcome as I feel it's a tough choice between the two. 

2 hours ago, WelshMourinho said:

It's very close, but for me De Baas's anticipation, bravery and concentration being far superior would give him the edge for me. Estenssoro has plenty of time to take over when De Baas fully declines.

Personally I'm leaning towards this as well, for the same reasons.

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David, hands down..  more he plays, better he will get, and he's at a great age to improve, whereas other guy will only stagnate or go backwards.  I'm not a fan of having older players in my squad, very rare I keep players past the age of 30

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David by a long long way for me.

31 is way too old of a player to have taking up a key role, especially when David is pretty much his equal with more years to develop.

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David for me- technically superior and equal in the other areas.  I would rotate though but reduce de Baas game time slowly.

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A bit surprised to see what looks like a heavy sway towards Estenssoro on the basis that his technical attributes are higher. I always thought people on this forum gravitated towards the mental attributes being more important, perhaps especially for a position like central defender. Gillian de Baas is certainly no technical phenom, but he is very reliable and so far, with a limited statistical sample for Estenssoro, scores a lot more from set pieces. On the flipside, de Baas collects way more yellow cards. I still think it's a tough choice.

But in time Estenssoro is the clear pick even for me. The wage of £275k per week he's lifting is among the highest earners in the squad and I can't have that going to waste. He's overall too good to warm the bench anyway.

Interesting feedback, I might do another thread like this with a similar dilemma at central midfield.

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This would be easier if de Baas was 35, or Estenssoro was 19. As it is now, I would think both of them would expect to play a fair amount of games.

de Baas has such good mental skills, and his fitness is good too. He could very well last you several more seasons if he is lucky with injuries. Do you really need to change? Are you winning? If you are having problems, I'd say start phasing de Baas out over the current, and maybe next, season. Play Estenssoro during cup-games and against lower half league opponents.

 

How does their match ratings compare?

What kind of personalities do they have?

I'm very curious about your untouchable defender though, would you let us see him too?

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1 hour ago, ralala said:

This would be easier if de Baas was 35, or Estenssoro was 19. As it is now, I would think both of them would expect to play a fair amount of games.

de Baas has such good mental skills, and his fitness is good too. He could very well last you several more seasons if he is lucky with injuries. Do you really need to change? Are you winning? If you are having problems, I'd say start phasing de Baas out over the current, and maybe next, season. Play Estenssoro during cup-games and against lower half league opponents.

 

How does their match ratings compare?

What kind of personalities do they have?

I'm very curious about your untouchable defender though, would you let us see him too?

I'd be happy to oblige and share my thoughts about the situation. Yes, the squad is winning and is an absolute top side in the world and I've been at the helm for 10-11 seasons. The fact that we are winning makes me slightly more unwilling to change a winning concept; a concept de Baas has been a part of for a long time. But like you suggest, the phasing out will have to happen at some point. Estenssoro is indeed playing in the non-league games. Carabao cup, FA cup, CL games etc, and those odd games like Super cup and World club championships etc.

De Baas gets great match ratings. The last two seasons he's been at 7.50 and 7.52, both times playing over 30 games. Estenssoro has played shockingly little, just 11 league games last year but did manage 7.50 as well. If anyone wants to suggest I'm not doing right by him, they probably have a case.

Personality-wise, de Baas is a model citizen (think this has changed the last season or so, it was something more regular before I'm sure), relishes big matches, is a consistent performer and is a fan and manager favorite. Estenssoro is a resolute personality but does not enjoy big matches. All in all, de Baas stands out more. You see more of him during games. Estenssoro is yet to make a real lasting mark.

And lastly, the "untouchable" 3rd central defender. I said untouchable mostly because I wanted people to give their opinions about the other two, not because this guy is that much better - if at all - than them. But he's playing in the left CD slot and is the only left footed defender we have.

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Looking at the attributes he is way more similar to de Baas than Estenssoro, but he is five years younger, has a perfectionist personality, also enjoys big matches and has a great partnership going with his dutch international teammate de Baas. To me his place in the starting 11 is unchallenged, and the fact that he's left footed helps with this as well. Atakan Koc is just the right fit. I love his mental attributes as well (although I wonder what happened with his leadership) and I feel like he will continue to play regularly for at least another five years before perhaps being in a similar position of questioning as de Baas is now.

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The problem with Estenssoro currently are the 13s and 14s down his mental between Anticipation and Decisions. They make him a good defender but are preventing him from being a great one. Top players are often going to read the play a second or so quicker than he is and it really does make a difference. The 13 concentration will on occasions add to the problem because he won't be alert. He would actually perform better if you were managing in another country and you should remember that the Premier League is very unforgiving. 

At the age of 24, he still has time on his side to improve and become an important player for you. The one thing you need to do is make sure he is getting regular game time. Extra experience could make a notable difference. 

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This de Baas and Koc pairing is a dream partnership in my book. One for each side, with each foot. Proper brilliant personalities, And even national teammates too! Long may it last, I would hope if these lads were on my team.

Over to Estenssoro again. You are rotating him in decently, but as Messi above states - he needs to improve on his mental skills a bit to become a true great.

This will naturally rise with age, and most importantly, match experience.

Could Estenssoro be loaned out to play first-choice at a proper level? If you have a U21 player with decent skills, who wouldn't have as high expectations for games, be the backup for de Baas? Estenssoro is 24 and would need to be first team sooner rather than later I think. 

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8 hours ago, Things Could Get Messi said:

The problem with Estenssoro currently are the 13s and 14s down his mental between Anticipation and Decisions. They make him a good defender but are preventing him from being a great one.

That is how I felt too. And for me, those particular mental stats up there, that he doesn't excel at, are more important than any technical skills he could compensate with. Certainly, me not giving him the game time that he would be getting pretty much anywhere else has not aided his development either.

1 hour ago, ralala said:

This de Baas and Koc pairing is a dream partnership in my book. One for each side, with each foot. Proper brilliant personalities, And even national teammates too! Long may it last, I would hope if these lads were on my team.

Over to Estenssoro again. You are rotating him in decently, but as Messi above states - he needs to improve on his mental skills a bit to become a true great.

This will naturally rise with age, and most importantly, match experience.

Could Estenssoro be loaned out to play first-choice at a proper level? If you have a U21 player with decent skills, who wouldn't have as high expectations for games, be the backup for de Baas? Estenssoro is 24 and would need to be first team sooner rather than later I think. 

I agree with everything here. Yeah, de Baas and Koc are just too natural and good together for me to switch around too much.

Loaning Estenssoro out is actually not a bad suggestion. This is something I don't do nearly enough. As long as he's at a really good club, I feel like I've got younger players that could play the less important games here when my dutch pairing needs a short break.

Thanks for giving some great feedback.

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On 07/03/2020 at 09:26, Norfair said:

A bit surprised to see what looks like a heavy sway towards Estenssoro on the basis that his technical attributes are higher. I always thought people on this forum gravitated towards the mental attributes being more important, perhaps especially for a position like central defender. Gillian de Baas is certainly no technical phenom, but he is very reliable and so far, with a limited statistical sample for Estenssoro, scores a lot more from set pieces. On the flipside, de Baas collects way more yellow cards. I still think it's a tough choice.

I think it's situational. I don't think Estensorro's slight advantage in tackling is particularly meaningful because centre backs attempt few tackles per game anyway and de Baas' tackling and physique is plenty good enough to win most of those challenges - he might attempt a few more too due to the extra aggression and bravery. On the other hand, when playing out the back, Estensorrro's better passing/technique/composure and weaker foot is going to allow him to play out the back a lot better. And a three point advantage in accuracy of heading is quite significant in a position where players attempt lots of headers, given they've both got similar physical ability to win the header.

Don't tend to agree that mentals are more important than technicals overall, but it does have to be said that Anticipation and Concentration are the two attributes I think really high values add a significant advantage for DCs by making them react to situations quicker. But Estenssoro is above average in those areas anyway and a combination of physical power and high marking/positioning means he doesn't have to react fastest all the time to win the ball anyway.

 

I'd give him some rotation time between the other two instead of loaning when he's at that level. No way you should be relying on just two defenders when going deep into the Champions League - I assume you are looking at those players - especially not when your backup is world class

Koc is superb too, but less spectacular in the air if the other side is playing with a target man, which is another consideration when rotating. Never understood the excitement over a left and right footed combo at centre back anyway

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@enigmatic, excellent analysis. I will say though that up until this season we've always made it very far into the CL, and winning it on many occasions. I think part of the reason is that I've not loaded any leagues other than the English. For this season I added all the big leagues too so maybe now the CL will prove to be a challenge after the group stage. I've got a feeling that top teams like Barca, Bayern, Real etc aren't as strong if their leagues aren't loaded. There's nothing but a hunch on my side to back up that claim though but we shall see.

Totally agree on Anticipation and Concentration, esp. the latter. Bravery is another favorite attribute for me and not one a lot of players have. I value that so highly, and at any rate de Baas has outdone himself this season racking up a record 7.57 avg and 5 goals with 20 games played. Estenssoro is doing quite well when he gets gametime but sidelining de Baas now would be criminal.

Estenssoro is delighted with the playtime he's getting but that was never the problem. It's me who's not delighted. We've also got at least three 16/17 year olds that look very promising indeed, and I'm not really sure what my plan is anymore. This is the problem when hoarding players. You want to play them all and there aren't enough games, even with all Carabao cup, FA cup ties etc, to do right by every last one of them.

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Think this just needs a careful transition from oldie to youngster. De Baas is still quality and will have something to offer even as he ages but over the next season or two, injuries and form permitting, Estenssoro should be starting more games than De Baas. Depends on your financial situation but the temptation to sell De Baas if a bigger offer came in should increase over time, just need to put aside your sentimentality and be ruthless!

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