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Dortmund - struggling


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I’m struggling to get the best out of the attacking trio of Haaland, Sancho and Reus.

I want to have a solid base in midfield and bombing on FB/WB but can’t seem to get the right balance, any suggestions? 
 

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I'm Dortmund at the min and doing well.

I play Haaland as a DLFA

Sancho IWS

Reus was IFA (sold and replaced with Barbosa)

Haaland currently has 44 goals in 40 starts.

Sancho 9 goals in 31

Barbosa 11 in 32

Emre Can as my BBM has 12 goals in 32!

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29 minutes ago, tlm_77 said:

I'm Dortmund at the min and doing well.

I play Haaland as a DLFA

Sancho IWS

Reus was IFA (sold and replaced with Barbosa)

Haaland currently has 44 goals in 40 starts.

Sancho 9 goals in 31

Barbosa 11 in 32

Emre Can as my BBM has 12 goals in 32!

what's your tactics mate? thanks

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2 hours ago, Rooney_10 said:

what's your tactics mate? thanks

C53D587D-411F-4290-865C-522136327A17.thumb.jpeg.87dee854b7b65b1b2ea3dac89bf8efdc.jpeg
 

this is my current set up, unfortunately Sancho now out for the season with ACL injury, same with Akanji. Rested Haaland last game.

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11 minutes ago, liamt1992 said:

C53D587D-411F-4290-865C-522136327A17.thumb.jpeg.87dee854b7b65b1b2ea3dac89bf8efdc.jpeg
 

this is my current set up, unfortunately Sancho now out for the season with ACL injury, same with Akanji. Rested Haaland last game.

You may want to post a better image (a screenshot if you can, rather than a picture) so it is clearer. At least rotate it so it is the right way round =D.

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1 hour ago, sporadicsmiles said:

You may want to post a better image (a screenshot if you can, rather than a picture) so it is clearer. At least rotate it so it is the right way round =D.

I’m playing on Stadia and screenshots are a nightmare to do sorry.

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2 hours ago, liamt1992 said:

image.thumb.jpg.0477154e76654e9eaf3e955dd93e724d.jpg

Here is what I see as problematic in your tactic:

- I really don't understand what's the point of using instructions such as be more disciplined and waste time for a team like Dortmund, and especially taking the rest of the tactic into account. Can you explain what's your reasoning behind that?

- AF (role) as a lone striker generally tends to struggle, especially in tactical setups with aggressive manner of defending (like yours), because there is not enough space for him to operate. You can change him into a PF on attack duty (for example) and provide more central support by giving your mezzala the attack duty instead of support (but in that case you should change the AML's duty to support instead of attack)

- narrow attacking width is not a good idea, as it makes it easier for defensive opposition to defend against you, because you are attacking them through the very area they tend to congest the most

- while a BWM in MCR position makes sense as a defensive cover for the attacking fullback on that flank, there is no need for him to be on defend duty, given that you have a holding DM behind him. Therefore, change the BWM's duty to support

These were the most obvious issues in your tactic IMHO. There are potentially a couple more, but you first need to address the ones I mentioned above.

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13 hours ago, Experienced Defender said:

Here is what I see as problematic in your tactic:

- I really don't understand what's the point of using instructions such as be more disciplined and waste time for a team like Dortmund, and especially taking the rest of the tactic into account. Can you explain what's your reasoning behind that?

- AF (role) as a lone striker generally tends to struggle, especially in tactical setups with aggressive manner of defending (like yours), because there is not enough space for him to operate. You can change him into a PF on attack duty (for example) and provide more central support by giving your mezzala the attack duty instead of support (but in that case you should change the AML's duty to support instead of attack)

- narrow attacking width is not a good idea, as it makes it easier for defensive opposition to defend against you, because you are attacking them through the very area they tend to congest the most

- while a BWM in MCR position makes sense as a defensive cover for the attacking fullback on that flank, there is no need for him to be on defend duty, given that you have a holding DM behind him. Therefore, change the BWM's duty to support

These were the most obvious issues in your tactic IMHO. There are potentially a couple more, but you first need to address the ones I mentioned above.

Thanks for the advice, I will change up based on the advice.

i had the waste time and be more disciplined on for the away game against Bayern (which I won 2-0) but I do not normally have those on. 
 

will update with results soon.

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I was playing a 4-1-2-2-1 wide but I've tweaked this in search of more possession - it's my stupid obsession with the possession stat kicking in again.

I can 4 or 5-0 and if it dips below 50% possession I'm not happy...

I'm trying out the old favourite of mine the 4-2-3-1 as all it involved was moving the DM to CM and a CM to AMC.

Still needs tweaking to find that formula that triggers high possession % - I find it and then tweak too far and lose it again. (basically, I think there is certain tactical instructions that when set will trigger high % of possession against the ME - it's not always that obvious either).

 

Below is what I'm working on atm - just beat Bayern 4-2 comfortably and could have been more but again, only 48% possession so I'm back to the drawing board.

 

Going back to your OP - take the front 3 and although I've bought Everton, Sancho would typically play there or Reus as Gotze is not good enough for me. I often buy Van De Beek to replace him as he can play in CM and AMC.

Annotation 2020-03-07 131715.png

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My latest result. 54% possession better but 7 goals, constant attacking threat and 2 goals for Haaland who has 7 shots, the highest from the team.

I can upload my tactic if you want? It's not perfect, not plug and play but it's got potential and may help you?

Annotation 2020-03-07 133127.png

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I'm currently playing with Dortmund with a 433 (41221/4141) in my second season, i really think they have one of the best squads to play attacking football, too much talent and young quality, that can evolve into a scary machine if done right. I'm going to try to explain why did i chose every instruction and role (So maybe it can spark disscussion and ideas from everyone else and even help me adapt and make it better)

Currently my team plays like this:

I'm playing in Attacking because i want my team to have the ball, be vertical, get it up, press high and try things like dribbling, shooting, and risky passes. I have a creative team with an attack consisting in technical, talented and fast attackers, like Brandt, Sancho, Haaland, Reus, Sergio Gomez, and good subs in Hazard, Gotze (The only transfer i made from the original Dortmund team is buying Ajer to play centre back, Victor Campuzano as a backup Striker and Benjamin Henrichs to have a young versatile backup all over the pitch)

PFat

IWsu                                IWat

CMsu    MEZsu

DLPsu

FBat    CDde   BPDde    FBsu

SKsu

I have these roles and duties and want them to do certain tasks individually.

Sweeper Keeper: Simple, i have a high line so i want someone that can get to balls behind my defense and i want him to pass to them as we build up play from the back. No PIs

Fullback(Support): Right now i have Hakimi here, i want him to be a good option to recycle the ball, sometimes overlarp the IW, and make 3v3 or 3v2 wide with the Mezzala and the Inverted winger. Toyed a bit with Wingback Support but i think the Attacking mentality already makes him one. My sub here is Benjamin Henrichs and he does fine. His PIs are: Cross from the Byline and Get Further Forward

Fullback(Attack): I have Guerrero here most of the time because of his intelligence and ability on the ball (As opposed to Nico Schulz that is more fast and physical). I want him to overlap my IW like in the other side, but more agressively. I thought of playing him as a Wingback Support but was finding him to static without the ball so i've changed it to FBat to make him do more runs. His PIs are Cross from the Byline and Stay Wider.

Center Back: Hummels here is great, i want him to do simple things, get the ball and pass it to my BPD, FBat or my DLP. PIs: Pass it shorter to emphasize not hoofing the ball as we build up. He has some goals too from good corners and FKs.

Ball Playing Defender: Ajer plays spectacular here, he brings the ball up, he plays with my FB and my midfielders, and occassionaly plays the long ball into space to Haaland or Sancho. Other than that is similar to Hummels, PIs: Pass it shorter.

Deep-Liying Playmaker(Support): The heartbeat of my team, the most passes, the most touches, the most key passes. Axel Witsel is just perfect here, incredible mental attributes. He help us build up play, recycle possesion, and progress play. No PIs as i think he has the mental attributes to play his game at his best without my help. His backup is Delaney but i ussually chang his role to something more generic or not so demanding on the ball.

Mezzala(Support): Here i have Can (Who i bought for 50M after my first season because he was just too good). I want him to combine with Sancho and Hakimi, be a threat from distance, play some defense splitting pass and be the wide man in some occasions and sometimes just changing play to the other side after overloading the right(He has the PPM to switch play which is really great).  Here i tried BBM and CAR but found that he was running too much inside the box without offering support to my wide players or he was just too conservative. His backup is Dahoud who can make a pretty decent job when he plays. His PIs are: Take more risks.

Central Midfielder(Support): This is a tricky one, i played him as a MEZ(a) but my midfield was too split and far from each other, an CM(a) but he wasn't touching the ball enough and was just a body to occupy a defender or make runs, an AP(a/y) but he was a magnet and i don't like to play with more than 1 playmaker, as he wasn't offering nothing to me on the ball(No through balls, no switch play, no dribble, nothing) or off the ball(Wasn't receiving in tight spaces or in dangerous areas), i always felt like he was missing something (Still do sometimes). I want him to be a cross of an Number 8 and a Number 10 (Iniesta role) so i came up with the idea of a blank canvas that i can modify with PIs and my own players PPM. I play Brandt here when Reus is in the lineup (He is great as a needle player but i still can't seem to give him the conditions to make a important impact here) and Sergio Gomez when Brandt is wide. Both have excellent feet and technical ability. The diferences lie in brandt being more electric with his dribbling and gomez a composed passer. I think this is the most thinkered role i have and i'm still triying to make them more important to our play. Their PIs are: Take more risks, Dribble more, Close down More, Mark Tighter

Inverted Winger(Attack): Sancho here is very good, fast and a real nightmare to play against, he has the most dribble per 90 in my team. Without the ball i want him wide to make up space for Can to play his game and to create overloads in that area. With the ball hi has to choose the best option as i want him to cut inside to make a cross from to my striker(From the inside as i want to make them behind the opposition defense line), my overlapping fullback or to go wide, beat his man and whip something to the other IW or to my striker. I have him in attack to make him do runs sometimes when Can has the ball. His PIs are: Take more risks, Stay Wider and Close down More.

Inverted Winger (Support): To my surprise this is my second goalscorer even in support duty (I think because of the Reus and Brandt incredible off the ball movement and capacity to receive in dangerous areas, and because Sancho makes really good crosses to this area). He has to be wide to receive the switch from Can, the cross from Sancho or be a good passing option to my striker, my CM and my FB. Here Brandt plays different than Reus, because he receives, cuts inside, sometimes beating his man or playing a 1-2 with my CM, to get in the area. But Reus is more agressive with his movement and get more inside the box or waits for the overlap and the cutback from my Fullback. Their PIs are: Take More Risks, Get Further Forward, Stay Wider, Close down more.

Pressing Forward(Attack): Haaland is a cheat code basically, we can play like s**t and he is still going to find a 1v1 situation or a corner or even a throw in, he finds gold out of mud. 41 goals in 45 games last season, just too easy for him. Still triying to include him more in the game as i feel sometimes he is too isolated, but he makes up for it being always a problem to the opposition centerbacks, making runs, winning headers, pressing. he is just too good. No PÏs for my main man here but i think Roam from position can have him benefit of his incredible off the ball movement.

 

As a unit i want them to do other things to complement their individual style with my own one. My TI right now are: 

With the Ball:

Play out of the Defence: I have players confortable on the ball and don't need them to hoof the ball long, also, want to make the opposition press me to open up space in midfield or in attack for a quick transition.

Much Shorter Passing: I want to balance the attacking mentality and make my players combine more in tight areas ussually wide before searching for the free man on the other side or making a run

Lower Tempo: To complement the passing one, i have a lone striker in attack duty so i don't want to always rush things because that i was seeing that sometimes mi players just played it long or make an speculative pass an was bypassing the midfielders too much.

I had pass into space, but we were losing too much possesion (Was winning games but sometimes with 38%, and were reliying too much in Haaland runs behind the defense) so i changed it to individual instructions of my attacking players to be more risky, as opposed to have all my team play into space. 

I think you can use WBiB but i saw the team become too stale, letting the opposition adjust and just being impacient and shooting out of frustration when having the ball against packed defense(This happens sometimes against packed defenses even without the instruction but my team has good concentration so they ussually just exploit easy mistakes against these types of teams). The other instructions here are i think situational (Like play wider against a team with flat lines like a 442 or overlap right when i want to exploit that area with 2v1/3v2)

In transition

Here is hard because i change sometimes these instruction, as i think they are the core of football (Transitions wins and lose games), but you don't want to overflow you players with transition instructions, you should see how they play without them and decide if you want to use them situattionaly or having them as hard coded instructions.

Counter-Press: The most important one, i use almost always because i think the best time to attack is when you lose the ball because the opossition stops thinking about defensive structure and starts to prepare to attack you. And i like to have the ball most of the time if is possible. But i don't use it against heavy opponents, or in tricky away matchs(I'm talking to you Frankfurt) because it can leave you heavily exposed if they can beat the press. 

Counter: I think it's not necessary as i already have a pretty high mentality but i found that when we got the ball back my players were simply build the attack slowly(Because of my instructions on possesion) and not exploiting the gaps in the opposition so i thought giving a chance to the TI.

Sittuationaly i use the Distribute to the centerbacks + wingbacks when i want to attract the oposition press with a composed, controlled build up with 5/6 players to later attack fast with my free forward players. They often get 4v5 or 5v6 plays where they use their talent to win these "outnumbered" situations. (I think playing with only 5 players to defend the 4 beasts i have is almost suicidal because any of them can win their 1v1 and its just over)

Without the ball i try to don't tell them too much because i already make a split press with mi PIs and have support players everywhere on the pitch to help in these situations.

Higher defensive line: I do this because i want to win possession up and control the ball, this give the opportunity to be more compact but without overkilling it so my players don't have space to play.

I don't use higher line of engament because i think mentality, roles and PIs already do this and it would be a bit of overkill.

 

My weakness right now are teams that plays 532 like RB Leipzig (It doesn't matter the variation, i think they just have the "free man" in defense and midfield and kill me with crosses and long ball to the strikers, so if any have tips against this, its always welcomed). Usually if i win is because of individual quality of players or luck (That's part of football too, you're not going to win every game, and pummel every opposition with only tactics, the best team are the ones who have both individual brilliance and collective cohesion)

 

Well, i wish this helps you sparks some ideas, and remember that these are just my view on the game, nothing is written in stone and is just my way of understanding roles, duties, mentality, Pis and Tis and Football.

I'll aprecciate feedback and would love to read your thoughts on this. I'm an avid reader since almost 5 years but this is my first comment/post here i think.

Sorry if my english is hard to undestand, my first language is spanish so sometimes things get mixed for me.

 

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1 hour ago, sheyner said:

I'm currently playing with Dortmund with a 433 (41221/4141) in my second season, i really think they have one of the best squads to play attacking football, too much talent and young quality, that can evolve into a scary machine if done right. I'm going to try to explain why did i chose every instruction and role (So maybe it can spark disscussion and ideas from everyone else and even help me adapt and make it better)

Currently my team plays like this:

I'm playing in Attacking because i want my team to have the ball, be vertical, get it up, press high and try things like dribbling, shooting, and risky passes. I have a creative team with an attack consisting in technical, talented and fast attackers, like Brandt, Sancho, Haaland, Reus, Sergio Gomez, and good subs in Hazard, Gotze (The only transfer i made from the original Dortmund team is buying Ajer to play centre back, Victor Campuzano as a backup Striker and Benjamin Henrichs to have a young versatile backup all over the pitch)

PFat

IWsu                                IWat

CMsu    MEZsu

DLPsu

FBat    CDde   BPDde    FBsu

SKsu

I have these roles and duties and want them to do certain tasks individually.

Sweeper Keeper: Simple, i have a high line so i want someone that can get to balls behind my defense and i want him to pass to them as we build up play from the back. No PIs

Fullback(Support): Right now i have Hakimi here, i want him to be a good option to recycle the ball, sometimes overlarp the IW, and make 3v3 or 3v2 wide with the Mezzala and the Inverted winger. Toyed a bit with Wingback Support but i think the Attacking mentality already makes him one. My sub here is Benjamin Henrichs and he does fine. His PIs are: Cross from the Byline and Get Further Forward

Fullback(Attack): I have Guerrero here most of the time because of his intelligence and ability on the ball (As opposed to Nico Schulz that is more fast and physical). I want him to overlap my IW like in the other side, but more agressively. I thought of playing him as a Wingback Support but was finding him to static without the ball so i've changed it to FBat to make him do more runs. His PIs are Cross from the Byline and Stay Wider.

Center Back: Hummels here is great, i want him to do simple things, get the ball and pass it to my BPD, FBat or my DLP. PIs: Pass it shorter to emphasize not hoofing the ball as we build up. He has some goals too from good corners and FKs.

Ball Playing Defender: Ajer plays spectacular here, he brings the ball up, he plays with my FB and my midfielders, and occassionaly plays the long ball into space to Haaland or Sancho. Other than that is similar to Hummels, PIs: Pass it shorter.

Deep-Liying Playmaker(Support): The heartbeat of my team, the most passes, the most touches, the most key passes. Axel Witsel is just perfect here, incredible mental attributes. He help us build up play, recycle possesion, and progress play. No PIs as i think he has the mental attributes to play his game at his best without my help. His backup is Delaney but i ussually chang his role to something more generic or not so demanding on the ball.

Mezzala(Support): Here i have Can (Who i bought for 50M after my first season because he was just too good). I want him to combine with Sancho and Hakimi, be a threat from distance, play some defense splitting pass and be the wide man in some occasions and sometimes just changing play to the other side after overloading the right(He has the PPM to switch play which is really great).  Here i tried BBM and CAR but found that he was running too much inside the box without offering support to my wide players or he was just too conservative. His backup is Dahoud who can make a pretty decent job when he plays. His PIs are: Take more risks.

Central Midfielder(Support): This is a tricky one, i played him as a MEZ(a) but my midfield was too split and far from each other, an CM(a) but he wasn't touching the ball enough and was just a body to occupy a defender or make runs, an AP(a/y) but he was a magnet and i don't like to play with more than 1 playmaker, as he wasn't offering nothing to me on the ball(No through balls, no switch play, no dribble, nothing) or off the ball(Wasn't receiving in tight spaces or in dangerous areas), i always felt like he was missing something (Still do sometimes). I want him to be a cross of an Number 8 and a Number 10 (Iniesta role) so i came up with the idea of a blank canvas that i can modify with PIs and my own players PPM. I play Brandt here when Reus is in the lineup (He is great as a needle player but i still can't seem to give him the conditions to make a important impact here) and Sergio Gomez when Brandt is wide. Both have excellent feet and technical ability. The diferences lie in brandt being more electric with his dribbling and gomez a composed passer. I think this is the most thinkered role i have and i'm still triying to make them more important to our play. Their PIs are: Take more risks, Dribble more, Close down More, Mark Tighter

Inverted Winger(Attack): Sancho here is very good, fast and a real nightmare to play against, he has the most dribble per 90 in my team. Without the ball i want him wide to make up space for Can to play his game and to create overloads in that area. With the ball hi has to choose the best option as i want him to cut inside to make a cross from to my striker(From the inside as i want to make them behind the opposition defense line), my overlapping fullback or to go wide, beat his man and whip something to the other IW or to my striker. I have him in attack to make him do runs sometimes when Can has the ball. His PIs are: Take more risks, Stay Wider and Close down More.

Inverted Winger (Support): To my surprise this is my second goalscorer even in support duty (I think because of the Reus and Brandt incredible off the ball movement and capacity to receive in dangerous areas, and because Sancho makes really good crosses to this area). He has to be wide to receive the switch from Can, the cross from Sancho or be a good passing option to my striker, my CM and my FB. Here Brandt plays different than Reus, because he receives, cuts inside, sometimes beating his man or playing a 1-2 with my CM, to get in the area. But Reus is more agressive with his movement and get more inside the box or waits for the overlap and the cutback from my Fullback. Their PIs are: Take More Risks, Get Further Forward, Stay Wider, Close down more.

Pressing Forward(Attack): Haaland is a cheat code basically, we can play like s**t and he is still going to find a 1v1 situation or a corner or even a throw in, he finds gold out of mud. 41 goals in 45 games last season, just too easy for him. Still triying to include him more in the game as i feel sometimes he is too isolated, but he makes up for it being always a problem to the opposition centerbacks, making runs, winning headers, pressing. he is just too good. No PÏs for my main man here but i think Roam from position can have him benefit of his incredible off the ball movement.

 

As a unit i want them to do other things to complement their individual style with my own one. My TI right now are: 

With the Ball:

Play out of the Defence: I have players confortable on the ball and don't need them to hoof the ball long, also, want to make the opposition press me to open up space in midfield or in attack for a quick transition.

Much Shorter Passing: I want to balance the attacking mentality and make my players combine more in tight areas ussually wide before searching for the free man on the other side or making a run

Lower Tempo: To complement the passing one, i have a lone striker in attack duty so i don't want to always rush things because that i was seeing that sometimes mi players just played it long or make an speculative pass an was bypassing the midfielders too much.

I had pass into space, but we were losing too much possesion (Was winning games but sometimes with 38%, and were reliying too much in Haaland runs behind the defense) so i changed it to individual instructions of my attacking players to be more risky, as opposed to have all my team play into space. 

I think you can use WBiB but i saw the team become too stale, letting the opposition adjust and just being impacient and shooting out of frustration when having the ball against packed defense(This happens sometimes against packed defenses even without the instruction but my team has good concentration so they ussually just exploit easy mistakes against these types of teams). The other instructions here are i think situational (Like play wider against a team with flat lines like a 442 or overlap right when i want to exploit that area with 2v1/3v2)

In transition

Here is hard because i change sometimes these instruction, as i think they are the core of football (Transitions wins and lose games), but you don't want to overflow you players with transition instructions, you should see how they play without them and decide if you want to use them situattionaly or having them as hard coded instructions.

Counter-Press: The most important one, i use almost always because i think the best time to attack is when you lose the ball because the opossition stops thinking about defensive structure and starts to prepare to attack you. And i like to have the ball most of the time if is possible. But i don't use it against heavy opponents, or in tricky away matchs(I'm talking to you Frankfurt) because it can leave you heavily exposed if they can beat the press. 

Counter: I think it's not necessary as i already have a pretty high mentality but i found that when we got the ball back my players were simply build the attack slowly(Because of my instructions on possesion) and not exploiting the gaps in the opposition so i thought giving a chance to the TI.

Sittuationaly i use the Distribute to the centerbacks + wingbacks when i want to attract the oposition press with a composed, controlled build up with 5/6 players to later attack fast with my free forward players. They often get 4v5 or 5v6 plays where they use their talent to win these "outnumbered" situations. (I think playing with only 5 players to defend the 4 beasts i have is almost suicidal because any of them can win their 1v1 and its just over)

Without the ball i try to don't tell them too much because i already make a split press with mi PIs and have support players everywhere on the pitch to help in these situations.

Higher defensive line: I do this because i want to win possession up and control the ball, this give the opportunity to be more compact but without overkilling it so my players don't have space to play.

I don't use higher line of engament because i think mentality, roles and PIs already do this and it would be a bit of overkill.

 

My weakness right now are teams that plays 532 like RB Leipzig (It doesn't matter the variation, i think they just have the "free man" in defense and midfield and kill me with crosses and long ball to the strikers, so if any have tips against this, its always welcomed). Usually if i win is because of individual quality of players or luck (That's part of football too, you're not going to win every game, and pummel every opposition with only tactics, the best team are the ones who have both individual brilliance and collective cohesion)

 

Well, i wish this helps you sparks some ideas, and remember that these are just my view on the game, nothing is written in stone and is just my way of understanding roles, duties, mentality, Pis and Tis and Football.

I'll aprecciate feedback and would love to read your thoughts on this. I'm an avid reader since almost 5 years but this is my first comment/post here i think.

Sorry if my english is hard to undestand, my first language is spanish so sometimes things get mixed for me.

 

This is a great post. I'm trying to do a poor man's version of this with Villa at the moment actually but with a winger and a carrielo where you have a IW(a) and cm(s).

Edited by beverage1982
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OP here with an update:

at the winter break managed to get sacked despite being only 3 points off top spot, did finish third in my champions league group which was disappointing but I have season ending injuries to Sancho and Akanji as well as long term injuries to Reus and Brandt, did the best with what I had but found that a bit harsh.

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