Is it possible to play a counter-attacking 4-4-1-1 with a big team like Man Utd?

[Robibar, Son of Shonibar]

I have a lot of pace to burn up front. This is what I had in mind

Balanced mentality because I want to wait and see what mentality fits the match.

Shorter passing because I want the ball moved around in defence until it goes to Pogba or Mata to start the counter attack.

There's also the option of my IW bringing the ball forward and either releasing my AF or Winger(att). There's also a natural overlap behind him that the CM(d) can target with a long diagonal.

Treq in the middle (will be Bruno) who's only job is to find space in the final third to set up the AF.

I'm a bit on the fence about Pogba's role as DLP. I don't think this team needs two playmakers. I first considered a BBM but that would mean losing my shape in midfield and compressing the area my Treq has to move around. I am really thinking about letting Pogba be a CM(s) with his PPMs doing the rest.

Pogba's PPMs

Since the winger on the right is going narrow with the attack option, an overlap right is set up to create an overload in the wide areas.

 

Take long kicks because that's the only way of distribution that works consistently with DDG.

More urgent pressing because I want to win the ball back as soon as it nears the halfway line

Play out of defence is also another TI I am unsure of. I have some good CBs that can pass well and more on the way from both the youth team and signings. If playing out the back will slow down the game, I don't think that's much of a good idea but at the same time, I don't want my CBs to hoof the ball into god knows where.

 

[Strikerir1]

I know it's lazy work and it's not completed there's a lot of things that are not mention in this video, 

But a personal tip 

Read carefully the role descriptions

It helped me a lot I was struggling to but now I seem to get it right. Hope it helps

[summatsupeer]

My tip is to not think of your style as just "counter attack". Think of it as more of a fast attack and your defensive pressure changes depending how safe/risky opponents are when they have the ball.

You cant really sit deep against smaller clubs or they will just keep the ball for most of the game passing it around at the back.  When they reach the middle third though you can press hard, you mention half way line as a trigger but it's important to cut out the easy backwards passes or to encourage the opponents to play forward. If your too safe and men behind the ball they can easily play keep ball.  Though need to make sure not pinning opponents into there third or you'll have no space to run into.

Keep mentality and your formation in mind for this. Do you need to keep more compact on a balanced mentality against small clubs? While dont want lone forward wasting energy pressing on his own he can help encourage them to pass it.

I would limit "possession" instructions, especially if not on a high mentality. I'd also avoid look for overlap as it will make the attacking wide player play safer and slow the attacks down to wait for the deep player to overlap.

I prefer take short kicks without play out of defence. Nice mix of safe but getting ball upfield without hoofing it when theres no big man up top.

[Experienced Defender]

16 hours ago, Robibar, Son of Shonibar said:

Apart from the question of whether it's possible or not to play counter-attacking football with a top team like Utd, the problem is that your tactic itself is contradictory in the sense that it's lacking a clear identity.

While it has some elements of a counter-attacking style - such as both forward players on attack duty, lower LOE, hit early crosses and counter (which, paradoxically, is not even necessary in a real counter-based tactic) - it at the same time contains other instructions that are clearly possession-oriented - such as short passing and play out of defence under the Balanced team mentality, and without higher tempo at that.

Another contradiction is using the play out of defence and long kicks for GK distribution at the same time. I am curious as to how the ME is going to interpret this "perverse" combination of instructions, because it really makes no sense. I fear it is most likely to produce a lot of confusion on the part of your GK.

Finally, having 2 playmakers in a counter-minded tactic is also a questionable tactical decision to say the least. Okay, they are different types of PMs, played in different strata and on different duties, which might somewhat mitigate this tactical overkill, but I am not really sure if that would be enough. But if anything, this is the least problematic part of your tactic (compared to the others I mentioned).

I hope these observation can help you understand where potential problems lie, so that you could improve the tactic by proper tweaks.

[Robibar, Son of Shonibar]

 

I've switched things up a bit as you can see, as per everyone's advice. Does this work for a fast attack?  I've just started to train it.

[Experienced Defender]

35 minutes ago, Robibar, Son of Shonibar said:

 

I've switched things up a bit as you can see, as per everyone's advice. Does this work for a fast attack?  I've just started to train it.

Sorry mate, but this looks even worse to me.

I can tell you what I personally would do if I were to play such style with Utd, but I hoped you would be able to do it yourself based on the advice you received.

[Robibar, Son of Shonibar]

3 hours ago, Experienced Defender said:

Sorry mate, but this looks even worse to me.

I can tell you what I personally would do if I were to play such style with Utd, but I hoped you would be able to do it yourself based on the advice you received.

I'm sorry 😭, I have save-scummed since FM08 and only now trying to make tactics that actually work.

I would like to know how you would set up the team to play a fast style of football that takes advantage of the many quick players I have.

[Zemahh]

I suggest watching Rashidi's Hannover Diaries, he created a very lethal counter-attacking system with a similar formation.

Cleon's The Art of Counter Attacking thread is also a goldmine of information.

[Robibar, Son of Shonibar]

3 minutes ago, Zemahh said:

I suggest watching Rashidi's Hannover Diaries, he created a very lethal counter-attacking system with a similar formation.

Cleon's The Art of Counter Attacking thread is also a goldmine of information.

I did read most of Cleon's work. Unfortunately, I did follow the advice and set the team up according to what I read but what I am thinking is not translating into the game since my understanding of the mechanics is pretty spotty.

[Experienced Defender]

2 hours ago, Robibar, Son of Shonibar said:

I would like to know how you would set up the team to play a fast style of football that takes advantage of the many quick players I have

Fast attacking style or fast counter-attacking style? And does it have to be the 4411 formation or whichever?

[Robibar, Son of Shonibar]

21 minutes ago, Experienced Defender said:

Fast attacking style or fast counter-attacking style? And does it have to be the 4411 formation or whichever?

Fast attacking. Don't want counter-attacking because most of the teams I will line up against will play defensive or cautious against me from the get go.

I used the 4-4-1-1 to use the attacking midfield options I have in Bruno, Gomes, and Mejbri. Don't want to have to sell them. Any formation works, really. I'll use the tactic as a base to tinker with.

Thank you for the help!!

[Experienced Defender]

2 hours ago, Robibar, Son of Shonibar said:

Fast attacking. Don't want counter-attacking because most of the teams I will line up against will play defensive or cautious against me from the get go.

I used the 4-4-1-1 to use the attacking midfield options I have in Bruno, Gomes, and Mejbri. Don't want to have to sell them. Any formation works, really

Honestly, with this current Utd squad, I'd go with a 4231 for the style of play you want, but only because there is a shortage of central and defensive midfielders at the moment. Otherwise. a 4123 wide would be my preferred option. 

So this would be my starting tactic for fast attacking football:

Roles & duties:

F9

IFat          AMat            Wsu

MEZsu   CMde

IWBde  CDde  BPDco   WBsu

GKde

Players and player instructions:

GK - de Gea (unfortunately, he lacks attributes for a SK)

DL/IWBde - IWBde - Shaw

DR/WBsu - Bissaka

DCL/CDde - Maguire / Bailly / Tuanzebe / Jones

DCR/BPDco - Lindeloff / Maguire

MCL/MEZsu - Pogba / Fernandes / Fred - take more risks

MCR/CMde - McTominay / Matic - dribble less

AML/IFat - Rashford / Martial - close down more

AMR/Wsu - Lingard / James - close down more

AMC/AMat - Fernandes / Pogba / Mata / Lingard - move into channels, close down more

ST/F9 - Martial - roam from position, close down more

Team instructions:

Mentality - Positive

In possession - shorter passing, run at defence, pass into space, low crosses, overlap left

In transition - distribute quickly to CBs and FBs

Out of possession - higher DL

Optional tweaks - higher tempo, hit early crosses, counter (not necessarily all at once)

If you have any questions, you are welcome 

P.S: The first transfer you should make is buying an all-round midfielder who is equally good at both defending and attacking (like Ander Herrera)

[Robibar, Son of Shonibar]

17 hours ago, Experienced Defender said:

Honestly, with this current Utd squad, I'd go with a 4231 for the style of play you want, but only because there is a shortage of central and defensive midfielders at the moment. Otherwise. a 4123 wide would be my preferred option. 

So this would be my starting tactic for fast attacking football:

Roles & duties:

F9

IFat          AMat            Wsu

MEZsu   CMde

IWBde  CDde  BPDco   WBsu

GKde

Players and player instructions:

GK - de Gea (unfortunately, he lacks attributes for a SK)

DL/IWBde - IWBde - Shaw

DR/WBsu - Bissaka

DCL/CDde - Maguire / Bailly / Tuanzebe / Jones

DCR/BPDco - Lindeloff / Maguire

MCL/MEZsu - Pogba / Fernandes / Fred - take more risks

MCR/CMde - McTominay / Matic - dribble less

AML/IFat - Rashford / Martial - close down more

AMR/Wsu - Lingard / James - close down more

AMC/AMat - Fernandes / Pogba / Mata / Lingard - move into channels, close down more

ST/F9 - Martial - roam from position, close down more

Team instructions:

Mentality - Positive

In possession - shorter passing, run at defence, pass into space, low crosses, overlap left

In transition - distribute quickly to CBs and FBs

Out of possession - higher DL

Optional tweaks - higher tempo, hit early crosses, counter (not necessarily all at once)

If you have any questions, you are welcome 

P.S: The first transfer you should make is buying an all-round midfielder who is equally good at both defending and attacking (like Ander Herrera)

Thank you! This has worked great except for the Europa League final to Arsenal on penalties. They really had us with the fullbacks bombing forward and putting in far post crosses. But I think Brandon had a bad game. I'll use this tactic for a season or two and see what I learn.

[Experienced Defender]

1 hour ago, Robibar, Son of Shonibar said:

Thank you! This has worked great except for the Europa League final to Arsenal on penalties

I am glad it worked, but I did not expect you to finish the season so quickly because the tactic is not a plug'n'play. It probably needs some small tweaking in different situations. 

 

2 hours ago, Robibar, Son of Shonibar said:

But I think Brandon had a bad game

I am not sure it's a good idea to pick Brandon over Shaw, especially in tough games.

[Robibar, Son of Shonibar]

16 hours ago, Experienced Defender said:

I am glad it worked, but I did not expect you to finish the season so quickly because the tactic is not a plug'n'play. It probably needs some small tweaking in different situations. 

 

I used the tactic for roughly two months. It does well on the attack but sometimes when facing 5 at the back formations, my team kind of poops its pants. No

 

I had a question about the counter tick box setting, though.

If I recall correctly, it lowers the threshold for triggering a counter-attack. When a counter-attack triggers, the mentality shoots up to the maximum setting until the phase of play ends. So what would be the key difference between increasing the tempo and using the counter box?

Q1. Also the false 9, in certain cases, can I go for a PF-A for more direct play from him?

As for the Mezalla on the left, I replaced Pogba who went to P$G for Federico Valverde who can go forward a bit but is much more solid defensively. He switches around with Fred to keep fitness. Ajer and McTominay handle the CM-d position and so far, so good.

Q2. What was your reasoning behind using a BPD-co? I've always avoided the stopper and cover roles because I want my defense to always stay in shape.

Q3. How do I stop opposition fullbacks bombing forward and putting in far-post crosses? As of now, I am having to make my AMR/AML mark them. Are there any alternatives?

 

 

 

[Experienced Defender]

1 hour ago, Robibar, Son of Shonibar said:

I had a question about the counter tick box setting, though.

If I recall correctly, it lowers the threshold for triggering a counter-attack. When a counter-attack triggers, the mentality shoots up to the maximum setting until the phase of play ends. So what would be the key difference between increasing the tempo and using the counter box?

The counter instruction applies only in the attacking transition phase, i.e. when your team wins the ball. The tempo instruction applies to the regular in-possession phase of play. 

 

1 hour ago, Robibar, Son of Shonibar said:

Q1. Also the false 9, in certain cases, can I go for a PF-A for more direct play from him?

You can use the PF on attack, but that would likely require some other tweaks. Because there is a very specific reason why I opted for the F9 in this particular setup, taking into account both the style of play you want and types of players you have. Looking at roles (or any tactical element) in isolation from the rest of the tactic is one of the biggest mistakes people tend to make. 

 

1 hour ago, Robibar, Son of Shonibar said:

What was your reasoning behind using a BPD-co? I've always avoided the stopper and cover roles because I want my defense to always stay in shape

Because of the higher D-line. If Maguire was faster, I would probably go with both CBs on defend duty. But given that he is not fast enough, I thought it could be a good idea to have Lindeloff covering. Especially as de Gea is not suitable to play as a sweeper-keeper. 

When I managed Utd in FM19, I also played with higher DL, but with both CBs on defend duty. The difference was that all my CBs were both fast and with good mentals, plus I had a holding DM as an extra layer of protection. And that Man Utd team was better overall than this current one (at least in FM terms). 

1 hour ago, Robibar, Son of Shonibar said:

Q3. How do I stop opposition fullbacks bombing forward and putting in far-post crosses? As of now, I am having to make my AMR/AML mark them. Are there any alternatives?

When such things happen to me, I know what I need to change/tweak because I watch my matches carefully and thus am able to identify where the problem potentially is. The problem is that I don't watch your marches, and therefore would only be able to speculate, which I don't want, simply because it can easily lead to misleading advice.

Besides, you wanted to play a style of football that has the potential to be risky defense-wise, especially considering that this Man Utd is weaker than it was in previous seasons. If you want to play such football, you must be prepared to accept an increased level of risk.

[ralala]

On 09/03/2020 at 13:59, Robibar, Son of Shonibar said:

Q3. How do I stop opposition fullbacks bombing forward and putting in far-post crosses? As of now, I am having to make my AMR/AML mark them. Are there any alternatives?

How about dropping the widemen down a notch to the midfield positions to help the defence a bit more?

Edit : It would stay true to your initial idea of a 4411 too. And I'd like to add that personally I would use a FB(S) on the side of a Inverted Winger to overlap. And with a BBM instead of the Mez.

Edited March 12, 2020 by ralala