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I need some help with my Inside Forwards if possible please.

I am playing a 'Positive' 4-1-4-1 Wide with Chelsea but am really struggling to get anything from my Inside Forwards.

Usually Playing Willian (or Pulisic) on the left and Ziyech (or Pedro) on the right, the Goals/ Assists out put is minimal and they are getting 6.4 - 6.6 (max) average rating every game which is pretty bad in my opinion. The rest of the team are performing well.

 

Roles and Team Instructions:

In Possession:- Short Passing, Pass Into Space, Play Out of Defence, Whipped Crosses, Work Ball into Box, Be More Expressive, Overlap Left + Right, High Tempo, Play Wide

In Transition:- Roll Out, Distribute to PM, Hold Shape, Counter Press, 

Out of Possession:- Higher D Line, Higher LoE, Extremely Urgent, Prevent GK Distribution, Get Stuck In, Tighter Marking, Use Offside Trap

 

                     CF (A)

  IF (S)                               IF(S)

       MEZ(S)              MEZ(S)

                    DLP(D)

WB(A)    BPD(D)   CD(D)   WB(A)

                      SK(D)

 

Does anyone have any suggestions or advice? I have tried Individual Instructs of Roam and/or Sit Narrower as well as tweaking things like Shoot Less Often.

(Please bare in mind the players I have at my disposal as I cannot put square pegs in round holes)

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The setup of both sides is exaclty the same with an IF(S), MEZ(S) and WB(A). Try to vary a bit with an IF(A) and FB or WB(S) for starters.

Also, the CF(A) is a demanding role. Are you sure you have someone available who is capable of that role?

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2 minutes ago, Cross said:

The setup of both sides is exaclty the same with an IF(S), MEZ(S) and WB(A). Try to vary a bit with an IF(A) and FB or WB(S) for starters.

Also, the CF(A) is a demanding role. Are you sure you have someone available who is capable of that role?

Thanks for the reply.

As I said, the rest of the team is playing well. Tammy Abraham is surprisingly good as my CF with Giroud a DLF(A) and Michy as a 3rd Striker on CF(A) also.

The MEZ(S) roles (Kovacic/RLC) seems to be doing well with the WB(A) roles (Emerson/James) overlapping them and putting crosses in whilst having a DLP(D) (Jorginho) or DM(D) (Kante) sitting behind them.

My last game, I won 3-0 with

62% possession - 25 Shots (13 On Target) - 91% Pass Completion - 86% Tackle Completion 

I have attached average positions of my players which shows their movement is good and all areas are covered.

I cant understand what to do to get my IF(S) players to perform

 

Average Positions With Ball.JPG

Average Positions Without Ball.JPG

Average Positions Overall.JPG

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Hello, SteveDavis85!

Let's take a look at your roles and duties. You are using two IF-su. That's fine in some cases, but it could be one-dimensional most of the time. As my poster above said, try a IF-at+WB-su pairing on one of the sides; RMD+WB-su/FB-su could also work well if you want to increase the goal-scoring focus. On the other side you could use a WB-at+IF-su pairing in order to create dangerous overlaps. 

One thing I noticed is that you use two Mezzalas. Usually Mezzalas attack the same space as IFs. They might help each other at times, but often they are going to impede each other. Alternatives could be AP-su (if you want to control the centre) or a CAR (as a balancing element for a WB-at or even CWB-at).

Team Instructions

You ticked a lot of instructions. That's not always a bad thing, but in this case there are some contrary instructions that could lead to serious problems. For example, you are using a high line of engagement although you want your team to play passes into the space (but where is the space when your team is defending that high up the pitch?). Because you are mainly aiming for a possession-based tactical approach I would recommend the following changes:

  • remove Pass into Space (this instruction is rather made for counter-attacking sides or situations where your team's back is against the wall)
  • remove both Overlaps (if you use WBs and IFs you won't need this setting)
  • remove Play Wider (width is provided by your WB's and the narrower your team width the bigger are the half spaces for your IFs)
  • use Much Higher Line Defensive Line paired with High Line of Engagement; or:  Higher LOE + Default Defensive Line (this will give you vertical compactness and more passing options once you win the ball) (OPTIONAL)
  • remove Tighter Marking if your backline is rather slow (OPTIONAL)

Because you are already using counter-press there's not really a need for extremely urgent pressure. Rather go for more urgent or default pressure. (OPTIONAL)

Edited by FMSD0
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1 hour ago, SteveDavis85 said:

Usually Playing Willian (or Pulisic) on the left and Ziyech (or Pedro) on the right, the Goals/ Assists out put is minimal and they are getting 6.4 - 6.6 (max) average rating every game which is pretty bad in my opinion. The rest of the team are performing well.

 

Quote

Overlap Left + Right

Play Wide

                     CF (A)

  IF (S)                               IF(S)

       MEZ(S)              MEZ(S)

                    DLP(D)

WB(A)    BPD(D)   CD(D)   WB(A)

                      SK(D)

You have WB-At bombing down thr wings being super risky. The IFs are told to hold up ball and be safer to wait for them.  How do you expect assists from them when you've built a specific pattern in for others to be the assistor?

Similar issue with two MEZ inside of them attacking the same spaces a IF-Su will do.

There ratings will likely be lower as they're keeping things simple/safe, probably few key passes, dribbles etc.  They also probably dont have a massive defensive contribution. 

If it's working dont ruin things but you still expect more from them maybe dont force a specific pattern and let them take risks themselves more often, just make sure they have other options.

Edited by summatsupeer
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Thank you for the advice. What if I were to start in the following way:

Also, I only have 1 Left footed Winger so if I need to sub off or rotate the AMR position, what role should I use for a right footer in accordance with the other roles selected?

 

Roles and Team Instructions:

In Possession:- Short Passing, Play Out of Defence, Whipped Crosses, Work Ball into Box, Be More Expressive, High Tempo

In Transition:- Roll Out, Distribute to PM, Hold Shape, Counter Press, 

Out of Possession:- Extremely High D Line, Higher LoE, More Urgent, Prevent GK Distribution, Get Stuck In, Use Offside Trap

 

                     CF (A)

  IF (S)                               IF(A)

       DLP(S)             MEZ(S)

                    DM(D)

WB(A)    BPD(D)   CD(D)   WB(S)

                      SK(D)

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30 minutes ago, summatsupeer said:

 

You have WB-At bombing down thr wings being super risky. The IFs are told to hold up ball and be safer to wait for them.  How do you expect assists from them when you've built a specific pattern in for others to be the assistor?

Similar issue with two MEZ inside of them attacking the same spaces a IF-Su will do.

There ratings will likely be lower as they're keeping things simple/safe, probably few key passes, dribbles etc.  They also probably dont have a massive defensive contribution. 

If it's working dont ruin things but you still expect more from them maybe dont force a specific pattern and let them take risks themselves more often, just make sure they have other options.

In reality, This is how I see Chelsea playing and how I want to replicate. I imagine this is why they bought Ziyech (arriving in the summer), as the AMR with the left foot to cut inside and shoot or play through ball option.

Striker: The CF drops deep to link up play and runs the line when the midfield/wingers have the ball. He collects the ball and lays short or looks wide. He can take on players and go himself, or can arrive late in the box for a cross.

Wingers: With the ball, the wide players both collect the ball to feet and run inside with it to drag defenders inside or link with the CF. Or, if the ball is central, they cut inside to offer a passing option. They will also look wide for the overlapping wide defenders when in possession

Midfield: The DM sits in front of the back 2 (who both split at times) and dictates play whilst the LCM (usually Kovacic) comes deep to support or collect the pass and drive forward. The RCM sits higher and takes the ball forward linking with the wide players.

Defenders: Both Wide defenders push forward to offer width (as the wingers tuck in). The back 2 move across the back line as a passing outlet in case the ball needs to go backwards. They also cover the wide spaces at times.

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If you want both wings cutting inside, I'd recommend trying one as an IW.

I prefer an in-cutting role (IW/IF/RMD) on one side and a winger(A) on the other. That'd accommodate your right-foot dominant options for the position. 

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3 minutes ago, XuluBak said:

If you want both wings cutting inside, I'd recommend trying one as an IW.

I prefer an in-cutting role (IW/IF/RMD) on one side and a winger(A) on the other. That'd accommodate your right-foot dominant options for the position. 

Would I have a WB(S) Behind a W(A) like the following?

Inverted Winger would be a left footer and Winger would be a right footer.

I have tried a Winger there before but scrapped it as the ratings were again low, sometimes with a 0% cross completion.

                    CF (A)

  IF (S)                             IW(A) / W(A)

       DLP(S)             MEZ(S)

                    DM(D)

WB(A)    BPD(D)   CD(D)   WB(S)

                      SK(D)

 

And this above with the following Team Instructions?

In Possession:- Short Passing, Play Out of Defence, Whipped Crosses, Work Ball into Box, Be More Expressive, High Tempo

In Transition:- Roll Out, Distribute to PM, Hold Shape, Counter Press, 

Out of Possession:- Extremely High D Line, Higher LoE, More Urgent, Prevent GK Distribution, Get Stuck In, Use Offside Trap

 

 

Options  

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15 minutes ago, SteveDavis85 said:

Would I have a WB(S) Behind a W(A) like the following?

Yep. Maybe CWB(S), depending on the player. For Azpi, WB(s). 

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8 hours ago, gonefading said:

Hello, SteveDavis85!

Let's take a look at your roles and duties. You are using two IF-su. That's fine in some cases, but it could be one-dimensional most of the time. As my poster above said, try a IF-at+WB-su pairing on one of the sides; RMD+WB-su/FB-su could also work well if you want to increase the goal-scoring focus. On the other side you could use a WB-at+IF-su pairing in order to create dangerous overlaps. 

One thing I noticed is that you use two Mezzalas. Usually Mezzalas attack the same space as IFs. They might help each other at times, but often they are going to impede each other. Alternatives could be AP-su (if you want to control the centre) or a CAR (as a balancing element for a WB-at or even CWB-at).

Team Instructions

You ticked a lot of instructions. That's not always a bad thing, but in this case there are some contrary instructions that could lead to serious problems. For example, you are using a high line of engagement although you want your team to play passes into the space (but where is the space when your team is defending that high up the pitch?). Because you are mainly aiming for a possession-based tactical approach I would recommend the following changes:

  • remove Pass into Space (this instruction is rather made for counter-attacking sides or situations where your team's back is against the wall)
  • remove both Overlaps (if you use WBs and IFs you won't need this setting)
  • remove Play Wider (width is provided by your WB's and the narrower your team width the bigger are the half spaces for your IFs)
  • use Much Higher Line Defensive Line paired with High Line of Engagement; or:  Higher LOE + Default Defensive Line (this will give you vertical compactness and more passing options once you win the ball) (OPTIONAL)
  • remove Tighter Marking if your backline is rather slow (OPTIONAL)

Because you are already using counter-press there's not really a need for extremely urgent pressure. Rather go for more urgent or default pressure. (OPTIONAL)

I see people post a lot about removing ‘pass into space’ for attacking/possession tactics but I have to disagree with the removing pass into space option.

I think it’s a fantastic option if you’ve got pace and a good passer in your team. 
Even if you are an attacking team with attacking tactics you will come under pressure in games. Your players won’t always look to pass into space and they won’t if you’ve got a team banked on the edge of their box. It is an option more than a go to.

It’s useful I think, in particular when you’re counter attacking from a corner. In my current tactic I leave my fastest player on stay forward and I’ve scored numerous goals breaking away because my players launch the ball into space from defending corners. 
 

if you’ve got things like shorter passing and lower tempo on too I think it reduces the aggressiveness of it as well. It’s very very handy with fast wingers and with players moving into channels.

Edited by iownyou
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10 hours ago, SteveDavis85 said:

In reality, This is how I see Chelsea playing and how I want to replicate. I imagine this is why they bought Ziyech (arriving in the summer), as the AMR with the left foot to cut inside and shoot or play through ball option.

Striker: The CF drops deep to link up play and runs the line when the midfield/wingers have the ball. He collects the ball and lays short or looks wide. He can take on players and go himself, or can arrive late in the box for a cross.

Wingers: With the ball, the wide players both collect the ball to feet and run inside with it to drag defenders inside or link with the CF. Or, if the ball is central, they cut inside to offer a passing option. They will also look wide for the overlapping wide defenders when in possession

Midfield: The DM sits in front of the back 2 (who both split at times) and dictates play whilst the LCM (usually Kovacic) comes deep to support or collect the pass and drive forward. The RCM sits higher and takes the ball forward linking with the wide players.

Defenders: Both Wide defenders push forward to offer width (as the wingers tuck in). The back 2 move across the back line as a passing outlet in case the ball needs to go backwards. They also cover the wide spaces at times.

Nothing wrong with it but being so focused on it means if its doesn't work due to how the opponent sets up then you really have no plan B in that same tactic.  Its the same pattern on both flanks plus extra focused due to instructions.

I don't think they have two MEZ and IF vs IW could also be tweaked plus sometimes uses 4231.

2 hours ago, SteveDavis85 said:

I took the advice of the changes....terrible!

Unbeaten all season and lost 4-0 away to Lyon in the next game...shocking

Which ones?  Should only of tweaked it bit by bit.  I'd of started with removing the Overlap Left/Right and maybe swapped a MEZ to different role and a IF to IW.

One game result doesn't really tell us anything either, there's nothing to say would of lost anyway especially if only made one or two tweaks.  If made lots of changes you'll of lost familiarity to.

Plus being unbeaten all season is a bit different telling us "The rest of the team are performing well".  If thats the case the tweaks should be even fewer and smaller.

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2 hours ago, SteveDavis85 said:

I took the advice of the changes....terrible!

Unbeaten all season and lost 4-0 away to Lyon in the next game...shocking

I don't know what all changes you made, but I'm pretty sure you didn't go from unbeaten to a 4-0 loss because you changed an IF to W and WB(A) to WB(S). 

I suspect, if anything, your out of possession TIs (much higher DL in particular) got you in trouble against a Lyon team that's well-suited to hit you on the break. You have to adjust, especially on the road against top teams. I almost never play with a "much higher" DL, and certainly not with anything other than "much higher" LOE. With high pressing, aggressive teams, I advocate for a LOE that's as aggressive or one level MORE aggressive than your DL, not the other way around. Preventing direct counters > preventing fluid counters, with a highly aggressive pressing team. 

I also favor a CB with "cover" duty if playing an aggressive pressing tactic with a high DL. 

Also, as @summatsupeer pointed it, if you made wholesale changes, that can cause major problems regardless. 

Edited by XuluBak
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