Looking for tactical help with Bayern

[Aquaplex]

So i want to preface this by saying i'm looking for help with Bayern Munich in FM20.  I realize it's a big club but whatever i try, either myself or through reading the posts on these forums, everything just fails or falls apart after few matches.  The only time i have any type of success is using plug and play tactics from download section, but i would really like to learn how to play this game correctly.  I want to play possession soccer in a 4141DM system if possible.  I think most importantly, i want to know/learn how to make changes that would give me success in long term.  From what i have seen, (i've started multiple saves with Bayern) is i do okish for about half a season, then everything goes crashing down and i can't score and start losing games all the time.   It's just so frustrating.   It's deflating when you spend hours having some success only for everything to start crashing down later on in the season when teams "adjust".  I've put together tactic which i feel is well balanced, but long term success still escapes me.  In my head this is what i envision for my tactic:

There are couple things in my "vision" of this tactic i'm not sure about.  I'm not convinced about the IW role, seems i can't ever quite get that role to work properly the way i envision it in supporting the striker.  Secondly,  i'm not sure if DLF is best position for a player like Lewandowski where perhaps he should be the main goal man, but i feel that PF(a) isolates him or is not quite as effective.   Anyhow i'm rambling on at this point.

Thank You for any advice you can provide. 

[Kingofcm03]

There is not too much wrong with that tactic that is immediately jumping out, how is the defence holding up? and exactly how bad are the performances? Can you share your results?

I am not 100% convinced "Work the Ball into the Box" and " Be More Expressive" are a good combination to be used.

Personally I dont see Lewandowski as a DLF in my head, I see him more of a CF or even a Poacher. 

Also is Tolisso really the best option for CM-A? I am not in front my FM at the moment but hes not a player that I would think is best suited for that. I immediatly thought he should or is a Box to Box

Edited February 19, 2020 by Kingofcm03

[Britrock]

Playing as Bayern I would imagine that you're going to run into a lot of teams that are stacking the defence against you, so play out of defence and work ball into box are going to play into their hands as you're giving them time to get back into a defensive formation and frustrate you. I'd get rid of them personally so that your counters are more effective. You could also add some extra closing down to the front 4 (CMa as the 4th) to try and accentuate the press and get the ball back sooner. Maybe add some extra width as well to stretch those defences horizontally as well.

[Aquaplex]

@Kingofcm03 the results are usually low scoring affairs, like 1-0, 1-1 or 0-1.  I'm worried that if i don't play a striker role that drops deep it's going to isolate him, but i can give it a try with your suggestions.  It was either Tolisso, Goretzka or was even thinking of putting Coutinho as CM(a) because he doesn't do much on the wing anyhow..  I was thinking either CM(a) or Mez(a) but mezalla is dropping wide and i don't really like that.   I'm also having trouble incorporating couple players into the system.  Guys like Gnabry are more of inside forwards and ofcourse Muller who's an RMD but then i'm not sure what else i would have to change in the system if i play him that way in AMR.

@Britrock That's the thing, from my experience in first season most teams don't really sit deep against me, i'm seeing a bunch of 4231s rarely do i see them playing defensively.  Only the bottom teams.  I did forgot to mention but yes, i am using a split press on the top 3 and CM(a) already.  I'll try your suggestions as well.

Results are mixed, i usually start well, either first few games and in some saves it goes well till winter break, but then after everything just comes to a complete halt and even though i don't see teams playing me much differently then they did in first part of the season, strikers are hitting posts instead of goals, everything on the pitch goes against us, morale dries up, loses start piling up.  Maybe it's a slight exaggeration but that's exactly what it feels like.

Edited February 19, 2020 by Aquaplex

[llama3]

12 hours ago, Aquaplex said:

So i want to preface this by saying i'm looking for help with Bayern Munich in FM20.  I realize it's a big club but whatever i try, either myself or through reading the posts on these forums, everything just fails or falls apart after few matches.  The only time i have any type of success is using plug and play tactics from download section, but i would really like to learn how to play this game correctly.  I want to play possession soccer in a 4141DM system if possible.  I think most importantly, i want to know/learn how to make changes that would give me success in long term.  From what i have seen, (i've started multiple saves with Bayern) is i do okish for about half a season, then everything goes crashing down and i can't score and start losing games all the time.   It's just so frustrating.   It's deflating when you spend hours having some success only for everything to start crashing down later on in the season when teams "adjust".  I've put together tactic which i feel is well balanced, but long term success still escapes me.  In my head this is what i envision for my tactic:

There are couple things in my "vision" of this tactic i'm not sure about.  I'm not convinced about the IW role, seems i can't ever quite get that role to work properly the way i envision it in supporting the striker.  Secondly,  i'm not sure if DLF is best position for a player like Lewandowski where perhaps he should be the main goal man, but i feel that PF(a) isolates him or is not quite as effective.   Anyhow i'm rambling on at this point.

Thank You for any advice you can provide. 

My pairs & combinations guide is designed for a straightforward idea of what works and why. Give that a read. Rashidi's channel on youtube (Bustthenet) is worth looking at as he gives you ideas that you might want to look at with breaking down defensive sides and where/how to press. Stuff from other FM's is all still relevant too.

Your team roles and duties look pretty balanced on the whole, no major issues there. I don't get what you're looking to achieve with your team instructions though. I'd wholeheartedly recommend sticking to a default style and then tweaking it rather than going for a custom style. I suspect just getting the team instructions lined up and a bit of advice on breaking down a packed defence will work wonders for you.

[Aquaplex]

@llama3 What do you mean by default style?  Like one of the presets or no TIs at all? 

[llama3]

8 minutes ago, Aquaplex said:

@llama3 What do you mean by default style?  Like one of the presets or no TIs at all? 

One of the presets. I start from there, then make tweaks when i see it in action.

[Experienced Defender]

19 hours ago, Aquaplex said:

The first thing I would change is Alaba's role/duty. I would go with a WB on attack duty instead of CWB on support. Not because Alaba cannot play as a CWB - of course he can - but because:

1. CWB makes more sense when he is the only wide player (i.e. in a narrow system), and

2. a combo of WB (or FB) on attack and IW (or IF) on support creates a "perfect" natural overlap, especially as you have a DLP on that side to pull the strings from deep and allow for nice and dynamic interplay

I would then also consider changing Martinez into a HB, both because he ideally fits the role and the role is useful when you have fulbacks bombing forward regularly. 

19 hours ago, Aquaplex said:

I want to play possession soccer in a 4141DM system if possible

It's an ideal system for possession football if you ask me, although you did not specify which exact type of possession style you want to play - slow and patient ("tiki-takish") or more progressive)? In any case, you should not have the keeper (Neuer) on attack duty if possession is your primary goal. Therefore, change him to SK on support.

Instructions look good, although the Counter TI in transition is not necessary as a starting instruction. Simply because it is likely to lead to losing possession prematurely, which plays directly into the hands of your defensive opponents (since they want you to have the ball as little as possible). Therefore, start matches without the Counter TI, and then you can turn it on situationally (i.e. when you feel it can make sense). 

19 hours ago, Aquaplex said:

I'm not convinced about the IW role, seems i can't ever quite get that role to work properly the way i envision it in supporting the striker

Good observation! I would rather use the IF on support in AML in this particular setup, because your striker is played in a creator role (DLF), so you need a wide forward role that is more straightforward in his manner of attacking (and IF is more so than IW). 

Anyway, apart from these few remarks, your tactic looks pretty good IMHO  

19 hours ago, Aquaplex said:

i'm not sure if DLF is best position for a player like Lewandowski where perhaps he should be the main goal man, but i feel that PF(a) isolates him or is not quite as effective

I think DLF as a role suits Lewa very nicely (on either duty). He can also be a very good CF, so you can also experiment with that role.

Btw, do you use any kind of split block?

[Aquaplex]

@Experienced Defender Thank You for your help as always ED.  Yes i use a split block press on top 3 and CM(a).  Could you possibly comment on what changes you would make from game to game?  Do you always stay on positive mentality and just make player role changes?  I think this is where i'm struggling the most, knowing how to make adjustments from game to game and during the matches, since i'm assuming you can't have long term success not changing anything.

[Aquaplex]

I made couple changes especially to player roles and was wondering if they make sense overall.  @Experienced Defender i was leaning towards a progressive possession type of a system where i win the ball back quickly (if i understand that correctly). 

[Experienced Defender]

17 minutes ago, Aquaplex said:

I like what I see in the screenshot. Of course, I would need to analyze players to see if some of them possibly aren't good enough for their respective roles. But overall - there is really nothing wrong with this tactic in and of itself. 

So I would suggest you give this new tactic a try and report back how it works  

30 minutes ago, Aquaplex said:

Could you possibly comment on what changes you would make from game to game?

When I create a tactic that suits my team and generally works well for me, I may only make really small tweaks (either between 2 matches or during a match) to adapt to a particular type of opposition (or in-game situation). But I never make big, dramatic changes. Because when you have a good and well-balanced tactic that suits your players, there is really no need to chop and change all the time. 

And your tactic absolutely makes sense. So even if some change is needed, it's certainly just a minor one. 

38 minutes ago, Aquaplex said:

Do you always stay on positive mentality and just make player role changes?

Well, i don't use the positive mentality for all teams I manage. When it comes to roles and duties, I may occasionally tweak a couple of them, but only if I have a very clear idea as to why I am making that specific tweak. 

 

40 minutes ago, Aquaplex said:

I think this is where i'm struggling the most, knowing how to make adjustments from game to game and during the matches, since i'm assuming you can't have long term success not changing anything

Basically, you do need to adapt your tactic slightly over time (unless you use an exploit plug'n'play one). But these are rather subtle tweaks than any significant changes.

Again, your tactic looks nice and logical. All you need is to watch your matches carefully so that you could know exactly what kind of tweak(s) you need to make in a particular situation in order to overcome possible occasional issues.

[Aquaplex]

@Experienced Defender do i need to give this setup any PIs outside of just split block?  Like IF sit narrow or WB?  One more question, how do i incorporate someone like Muller who's an AMR RMD ideally into this tactical setup  without unbalancing the whole tactic?  I guess i could always play him just as it is with W(a) but he's not very pacey and his crossing is average.  Or just use him as a backup to Lewandowski as CF(a)?

Edited February 20, 2020 by Aquaplex

[Aquaplex]

53 minutes ago, Experienced Defender said:

Basically, you do need to adapt your tactic slightly over time (unless you use an exploit plug'n'play one). But these are rather subtle tweaks than any significant changes.

Again, your tactic looks nice and logical. All you need is to watch your matches carefully so that you could know exactly what kind of tweak(s) you need to make in a particular situation in order to overcome possible occasional issues.

Could you give me an example of a tweak ingame?  Also if i'm about to play a tough game away from home, would u drop the mentality to balanced or make other changes?

[Experienced Defender]

36 minutes ago, Aquaplex said:

do i need to give this setup any PIs outside of just split block?  Like IF sit narrow or WB?

Telling the IF (AML) to sit narrower would make sense, both to create space for Alaba and be more involved in the creation of attacks through central areas. Of course, PIs are not literal, so he's not going to sit narrow all the time, but only when it makes sense within the overall context of play. 

 

36 minutes ago, Aquaplex said:

 

36 minutes ago, Aquaplex said:

how do i incorporate someone like Muller who's an AMR RMD ideally into this tactical setup  without unbalancing the whole tactic?  I guess i could always play him just as it is with W(a) but he's not very pacey and his crossing is average.  Or just use him as a backup to Lewandowski as CF(a)?

I would rather use him as a backup for Lewa than playing him on the flank. Because he really is not suited for the winger role (although I guess his experience and great mental attributes would help him play decently even as a winger when necessary).

Playing him as a RMD would require some tweaking elsewhere as well, but is possible of course. For example:

CFsu

IWsu                                 RMD

DLPsu   MEZsu

DMde(su?)

WBat    CDde  BPDde   IWBde

SKsu

With the overlap right team instruction added, so as to encourage more support from the IWB on defend. 

32 minutes ago, Aquaplex said:

Could you give me an example of a tweak ingame?

Okay, here is one example... let's say I am not satisfied with how this combo is working in a certain match:

               Wsu

   CMat

              IWBsu

So I may try this one:

              IWsu

   MEZat

            (I)WBsu 

32 minutes ago, Aquaplex said:

Also if i'm about to play a tough game away from home, would u drop the mentality to balanced or make other changes?

I would probably not change the mentality I regularly use. Instead, I would do the following:

- replace the full split block with the softer one (only the striker and more attacking CM told to close down more, but not the wingers)

- remove the counter-press

- remove the Work ball into box 

- change the IWBsu (right back) into FBsu

- change the WBat (Alaba) into FB on attack

- maybe dropping both DL and LOE just one notch (to standard and lower respectively, but not necessarily)

So these are the changes I would make prior to that tough away match. Other possible tweaks could be made during the match, based on what I observe. Dropping the mentality - only if really necessary, but preferably not.

[Aquaplex]

Thank You!

[Bahamontes]

This is my primary Munich line-up. A flat 4-1-4-1 (on positive mentality) with the wide mitfielders pushing forward when in possession. The players starting lower down the pitch and can use space more efficient in my opinion. 

Müller is a odd case for me. Most of the time I use him as Lewandowski back-up and he is scoring for fun as DLF but he struggles to blent in when he fill in a wide mitfield role.
 

 

Edited March 1, 2020 by Bahamontes