Help with 4-3-3 for Southampton

[Pterinochilus]

Hi,

Can you guys take a look at the formation I`m attempting to use in my Southampton save? I`ve been getting okay results so far, but I am struggling to get Danny Ings to score.

 

[SD]

I think your striker struggles to perform because you gave him an attacking role that looks to push up, but you are using a medium tempo, short passing tactic. By the time your team works the ball up to him he'll usually be up against 2-3 defenders who've already completed transitioning into defensive formation. Personally I would experiment with CF(A) or DLF(A) instead, it won't turn him into a goal machine but at least he'd be offering more to the team.

 

Somewhat unrelated to your question, but one thing I notice about many people's tactics is ample usage of the Be More Expressive TI. From experience, I've had a lot better success using the opposite Be More Disciplined and it makes sense - if you are putting a lot of thought into setting up a well rounded tactic, you want your players to stick as much as possible to it and to the roles you've assigned them. Even looking at IRL football, modern-day successful managers like Pep or Klopp drill their players into rigid tactical systems rather than entrust them with loads of creative freedom.

[Pterinochilus]

32 minutes ago, SD said:

I think your striker struggles to perform because you gave him an attacking role that looks to push up, but you are using a medium tempo, short passing tactic. By the time your team works the ball up to him he'll usually be up against 2-3 defenders who've already completed transitioning into defensive formation. Personally I would experiment with CF(A) or DLF(A) instead, it won't turn him into a goal machine but at least he'd be offering more to the team.

 

Somewhat unrelated to your question, but one thing I notice about many people's tactics is ample usage of the Be More Expressive TI. From experience, I've had a lot better success using the opposite Be More Disciplined and it makes sense - if you are putting a lot of thought into setting up a well rounded tactic, you want your players to stick as much as possible to it and to the roles you've assigned them. Even looking at IRL football, modern-day successful managers like Pep or Klopp drill their players into rigid tactical systems rather than entrust them with loads of creative freedom.

Thanks! I will try to experiment with changing the role to DLF(A) or CF(A) and see if that works better.

This is the version of the tactic that I use at home against equal or weaker teams. I have another version without the Be More Expressive TI that I use away from home and against tougher opponents. I do of course perform better against weaker teams at home, so I have assumed that the BME setting works well. I might try to experiment a bit with that off as well once I find out how to get my strikers to score more goals in this tactic. I have previously played mostly in the Serie A where I have used formations with two strikers.

[maxchaplin55]

It is only Redmond (and only rarely him) who offers support to Ings. Vignato asked to stay wide. Ward Prowse asked to run wide. Lemina in a fairly stationary role on support. Any opposing holding CM/DM is going to easily block Ings off. You’ll need someone to distract the opponents holding players. A more advanced runner from midfield? Lemina the obvious choice for me, get further forward PPI, or box to box?

[Experienced Defender]

11 hours ago, Pterinochilus said:

 

11 hours ago, Pterinochilus said:

Can you guys take a look at the formation I`m attempting to use in my Southampton save?

I managed the Saints, so I know a number of these players pretty well. 

Here are the tweaks I would recommend based on both my tactical approach and knowledge of your players:

Roles & duties:

DLFat

IWsu                               Wsu

DLPsu    CMat

DMde

FBat    CDde   CDde    FBsu

GK/SKde

I marked the midfield trio in red because that's the weakest part of your team defense-wise - because none of the players you are using has exceptional defensive attributes. 

So this is how I would use your starting 11 (from the screenshot):

DR/FBsu - sit narrower

DMde - Lemina

MCL/DLPsu - Tonali

MCR/CMat - Ward-Prowse - take more risks and close down more

AML/IWsu - sit narrower

STC/DLFat - roam from position and close down more 

And this would be my team instructions with which I would start most matches (except those against considerably stronger teams):

Mentality - Balanced

In possession - shorter passing (and sometimes work ball into box)

In transition - distribute to CBs and FBs (and sometimes counter)

Out of possession - higher DL and standard LOE (maybe offside trap, but with caution)

If you would like to hear an explanation regarding either the tactic as a whole or some of its elements, please let me know  

12 hours ago, Pterinochilus said:

I`ve been getting okay results so far, but I am struggling to get Danny Ings to score

Well, this potentially could be a problem. Because if you are doing well in terms of results, changing the tactic only to get more out of a particular player can backfire. So be careful what you wish for 

[Pterinochilus]

9 hours ago, Experienced Defender said:

Well, this potentially could be a problem. Because if you are doing well in terms of results, changing the tactic only to get more out of a particular player can backfire. So be careful what you wish for 

Haha, yes, indeed! I haven`t been letting in a lot of goals with this tactic and defensively it has worked better than I thought it would. I haven`t scored a lot either though and that`s why I am looking for a way to get Ings to score more regularly.

 

9 hours ago, Experienced Defender said:

 

I managed the Saints, so I know a number of these players pretty well. 

Here are the tweaks I would recommend based on both my tactical approach and knowledge of your players:

Roles & duties:

DLFat

IWsu                               Wsu

DLPsu    CMat

DMde

FBat    CDde   CDde    FBsu

GK/SKde

I marked the midfield trio in red because that's the weakest part of your team defense-wise - because none of the players you are using has exceptional defensive attributes. 

So this is how I would use your starting 11 (from the screenshot):

DR/FBsu - sit narrower

DMde - Lemina

MCL/DLPsu - Tonali

MCR/CMat - Ward-Prowse - take more risks and close down more

AML/IWsu - sit narrower

STC/DLFat - roam from position and close down more 

And this would be my team instructions with which I would start most matches (except those against considerably stronger teams):

Mentality - Balanced

In possession - shorter passing (and sometimes work ball into box)

In transition - distribute to CBs and FBs (and sometimes counter)

Out of possession - higher DL and standard LOE (maybe offside trap, but with caution)

If you would like to hear an explanation regarding either the tactic as a whole or some of its elements, please let me know 

 

First of all, thanks for the input, it is much appreciated

I only have a few questions regarding your proposed changes. Is there a tactical reason for using two CDde (as opposed to one CDde and one BPDde)  or is it mostly based on the attributes of the players in the screenshot? The January transfer window opened since I posted this and I sold Vestergaard and brought in Holding who was transfer listed by Arsenal. So now I have Holding and Stephens which is suited to play as BPDde and Bednarek and Yoshida who is suited to play as CDde.

The changes you proposed to the FBs and midfield trio makes a lot of sense, but is there a big difference defensively between a DMde and a DLPde in the DM slot?

And lastly, I already play with higher DL and standard LOE but with a split block as well through PI. Should I remove the PIs?

 

 

Edited February 18, 2020 by Pterinochilus

[crusadertsar]

@Pterinochilus I am not @Experienced Defender but i suspect the reason why he didnt use BPD role is because unlike its description it's not a role conductive to short passing possession game. Unless you play very aggressively in attacking mentality, BPD will tend to waste possession by making long passes up the field, completely bypassing your midfield. It's one of the roles I almost never use and hate how it's implemented in the game honestly. Anyway Experienced Defender might disagree but that's my two cents.

Edited February 18, 2020 by crusadertsar

[Experienced Defender]

2 hours ago, Pterinochilus said:

Is there a tactical reason for using two CDde (as opposed to one CDde and one BPDde)  or is it mostly based on the attributes of the players in the screenshot?

Mostly based on their attributes. I honestly don't think that either has all the needed attributes, although Bednarek is definitely better suited for a BPD than Yoshida. Anyway, you can try him in the role in see if you are pleased with how it works  

 

1 hour ago, crusadertsar said:

but i suspect the reason why he didnt use BPD role is because unlike its description it's not a role conductive to short passing possession game. Unless you play very aggressively in attacking mentality, BPD will tend to waste possession by making long passes up the field, completely bypassing your midfield. It's one of the roles I almost never use and hate how it's implemented in the game honestly. Anyway Experienced Defender might disagree but that's my two cents

That was not my reasoning in this particular case, but your argument does make sense in general  

 

2 hours ago, Pterinochilus said:

So now I have Holding and Stephens which is suited to play as BPDde and Bednarek and Yoshida who is suited to play as CDde

Good  

 

2 hours ago, Pterinochilus said:

The changes you proposed to the FBs and midfield trio makes a lot of sense, but is there a big difference defensively between a DMde and a DLPde in the DM slot?

The key difference is that DM is primarily focused on screening the back-line. DLP will also look to help the defense, but to a lesser extent because the role also has more responsibilities in the organization of attacks. That's why I prefer to play him in central midfield and have a more "classic" holding role in the DM spot. In this particular case, it also has to do with the players you are using. As I said, none of your midfield 3 is exceptional in terms of defensive attributes, but if I had to pick the one to be primarily in charge of protecting the back-line, it's Lemina.

What worries me a bit is Tonali's fairly poor off the ball attribute rating, given his playmaking role. If you notice that he is being easily marked (or otherwise robbed of the ball) by the opposition, just change him to a carrilero. He will still play nice long and killer passes, but will not be a ball-magnet, so the risk of losing the ball should be reduced.

Ideally, I would play Romeu as a HB, Ward-Prowse as the DLPsu in MCL and Lemina as the attacking CM in CMR. But I assume you bought Tonali because you want him to play a big role in your team and tactics, so that's how I would look to employ him in this setup.

When it comes to Meunier in the RB position, I think he could also play nicely as an IWB on support. So you can test him in that role as well. 

2 hours ago, Pterinochilus said:

I already play with higher DL and standard LOE but with a split block as well through PI. Should I remove the PIs?

I here proposed the so-called softer version of split block (with only the striker and attacking CM pressing more), primarily out of caution. But if the normal (full) split block has worked well for you, I guess it should not be a problem if you keep using it.

[Jimmious7]

This is interesting since I'm currently using a very similar formation...

I'm wondering @Experienced Defender , with both wings on Support and only the MCR potentially pushing forward, won't there be a lack of bodies in the area when attacking?

I'm also interested in the reasoning behind the DR sitting narrower proposition

[Experienced Defender]

6 hours ago, Jimmious7 said:

I'm wondering @Experienced Defender , with both wings on Support and only the MCR potentially pushing forward, won't there be a lack of bodies in the area when attacking?

No, because players on support duty will also join attack, especially when their played in advanced positions (AMR/L in this case) and attack-minded roles. But they will at the same time be more willing to track back and help the fullbacks when defending, which basically creates two banks of for when you are out of possession. And the attack-duty CM is there to help link the play better between the midfield and forwards. I use this kind of approach for most of my teams when I play them in the 4141dm wide system, and it really gives me nice balance, both in defense and attack. 

 

6 hours ago, Jimmious7 said:

I'm also interested in the reasoning behind the DR sitting narrower proposition

Given that he has a winger who provides width and an attacking CM in front of him, telling him to sit narrower basically serves 2 purposes:

- provides defensive cover for his CM

- helps the midfield to keep and recycle possession by playing in central areas a bit more

Of course, the "sit narrower" Pi does not mean the player will stay narrow all the time. It just encourages him to do that a bit more than he otherwise would, but he is not going to behave like an IWB. Instead, he will still primarily act as a wide player for the most part.