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zlatanera

Tactical Challenge: Raumdeuter

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A long, long time ago in a galaxy far, far away... Two years ago, in a successful bid to encourage people to get further enjoyment out of FM once the initial saves had died down there were a series of tactical challenges:

More recently an FM addict (me), after a nearly five month period playing one of my favourite ever FM saves ran out of inspiration, stopping and starting multiple saves (especially in Serie A) with the longest being 18 months with Roma (which I also made a thread for but I'm not going to keep plugging myself). 

Anyway, with an actual Bundesliga title race! in real life I got looking back to the start of Bayern's period of dominance, more specifically the 2012-16 period during which Thomas Müller, a nominal right winger, scored 102 goals for his club 26 for his country. Despite just, well, this might sound cruel but if Cristiano Ronaldo could be considered the model of a 21st century footballer, Müller is one of the rejected Snoke clones. He's described himself as not being particularly effective at dribbling, usually considered a prerequisite for a wide role, but then went on to coin a term for his role as a 'space interpreter', a Raumdeuter. This role has been in FM since 2015 I think, but I've never really used it and don't tend to see it as often as Inside Forwards, Wingers or even Advanced Playmakers and Trequartistas in others’ tactics.

The Raumdeuter in-game:

1936281675_Screenshot2020-02-14at14_02_02.thumb.png.b4daf4e57cd64c966ec2370d3a115f30.png

"The Raumdeuter literally translated from German means 'space investigator'. His main role is to find pockets of space in which to operate. Essentially a wide poacher, the Raumdeuter takes up seemingly harmless positions out wide, waiting for the opportune moment to burst through the defensive line for the telling shot or cross. His is difficult for defenders to pick up as he will often drift from his assigned position looking for any opportunity to exploit. This can result in quiet periods during which the Raumdeuter may neglect his defensive duties, therefore adequate cover and a strong team shape are key in order to fully utilise his attacking prowess in the final third. The Raumdeuter is only available with an Attack duty."

1263864705_Screenshot2020-02-14at14_01_16.thumb.png.fea55e1dfc7b5ad53bf79eb77998fa9d.png

 

Given the game's description of the Raumdeuter role as well as the real life example of Müller's goalscoring exploits I've set the following criteria for success:

  • Match or exceed your chosen club's expectations for the season (if you're operating in multiple competitions, do this in more than half i.e. 1/2, 2/3, 3/4 as everyone knows cup games are tricky). 
  • The Raumdeuter is your top (non-penalty) goalscorer or most valuable player (top for combined non-penalty goals & non-set-piece assists).

That's it! I look forward to seeing if anyone else wants to take up the challenge and how you'll go about it. No prizes for guessing which team and player (his attributes are in the screenshot above) I'll be using!

This thread will self-destruct in five seconds...

Edited by zlatanera

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Currently trying to sign Muller in my save as his contract expires in 6 months in 2021. Will most likely employ him Raumdeuter, in a complete tactical reconfiguration. I've had success using Lacazette in this role in previous versions of the game. If he signs, I will update :thup:

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52 minutes ago, zlatanera said:

This can result in quiet periods during which the Raumdeuter may neglect his defensive duties, therefore adequate cover and a strong team shape are key in order to fully utilise his attacking prowess in the final third.

This is something I don't agree with. Real life players who can be categorized as raumdeuters(Muller, Mane, Dele) are typically very hard working defensively - pressing and running a lot to deny passing lanes, tracking back, man-marking opposition deep lying playmakers.

Even in-game, a Raumdeuter is not going to be any more of a defensive liability than an IF(A) or a IW(A).

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Nice idea Zlats.  I used to like those challenges too.  My idea for one (i.e. a challenge) would be to create a tactic specifically for either C.Ronaldo or L.Messi.  Both may have gone past their peak now but maybe all the more reason to do it before they've gone from our screens.  How to play to their strengths and build something around their unique sets of skills.

Anyhow.  Maybe one for another time that idea.  Hope this one pans out well for you.

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2 hours ago, SD said:

This is something I don't agree with. Real life players who can be categorized as raumdeuters(Muller, Mane, Dele) are typically very hard working defensively - pressing and running a lot to deny passing lanes, tracking back, man-marking opposition deep lying playmakers.

Even in-game, a Raumdeuter is not going to be any more of a defensive liability than an IF(A) or a IW(A).

That’s just the game’s description of the role. I think it’s a verbal way of expressing that Roaming + Move Into Channels may leave them poorly placed to recover. As you can see though it can be customised to work harder. Those are Müller’s attributes too, as you said he’s not exactly going to slack off with 18 Work Rate!

15 minutes ago, Robson 07 said:

Nice idea Zlats.  I used to like those challenges too.  My idea for one (i.e. a challenge) would be to create a tactic specifically for either C.Ronaldo or L.Messi.  Both may have gone past their peak now but maybe all the more reason to do it before they've gone from our screens.  How to play to their strengths and build something around their unique sets of skills.

Anyhow.  Maybe one for another time that idea.  Hope this one pans out well for you.

Those challenges prolonged my FM18 enjoyment significantly, especially the strikerless one.  Yeah I’m always so tempted for short Juve / Barca saves. Or to go back to FM16/17 and enjoy them at their peaks. If this Bayern thing doesn’t run beyond a season that may be the next project - no desire for a youth marathon when it’s over a year since FM19 came out! 

Edited by zlatanera

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Interesting timing. In doing the Ultimate FM challenge, I've been trying to use different formations/tactics everywhere I go, which is challenging in itself, but there are only so many viable options, especially that make sense given the scope of UFM challenge. So I've been thinking of ways to revisit formations, and building around player(s) in some of the specialize role(s) I haven't really incorporated before. More generally, I've been wanting to really give Raumdeuter a try for a while now. 

It's not an option for me this season, but might look at it next. Definitely interested in giving it go at some point in the near future though. 

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Great idea! I happily take up the challenge! Have been feeling uninspired with my long-term Man United save. So I have been looking for a young dynamic team to do a more challenging save. Especially one where I can have more interesting material to write about in my blog. And nothing more challenging than doing a goal-scoring challenge with the current weird ME update :lol: .

I love youth development aspect of FM so I was looking for squad that has at least one good under-21 player for each position in the First Eleven. Came up with these guys who were my favourite youth-focused team last year (incidentally they got even younger and better since FM19). So without further ado...

988225.jpg

Not sure yet who my Raumdeuter will be yet. Although Chiesa looks like he might have what it takes. I'm especially intrigued by his unique PPM combination. Might make for an interesting synergy in a Raumdeuter role. Besides that not many players with 17 off the ball and such good mentals at that age. Especially given how much potential he still has to develop even better.

3C8A42547D653C8AB519BA34F417688C26D73212 (1600×900)

Thanks again for inspiring this thread. Hoping to see others pick up the torch too. I will probably start a new thread chronicling this (or even continue it on my Young Devils thread, since the title would still be appropriate) and then do periodic updates here. If that is okay with you. For now doing some theoretical work on what tactic would be the best to build around a Raumdeuter. 

PS: Yours looks like Thomas Müller, no? So Bayern save? I don't know many other players with 20 for Off the Ball haha. Anyway, love Bundesliga (although not as much as Serie A :cool:) so looking forward to it!

Edited by crusadertsar

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One thing to consider:

The RMD changes a lot when given the PPM to run rarely with the ball which gets even more extreme when also taught some of the more offensive ones (getting into area, beating offside trap...).

Running rarely, the RMD will hold the ball wide out at the middle line and help recycle the ball in possession, creating natural overlaps and helping controlling the game. But once the ball is out of his area, he will bomb forward towards the post, waiting for an opportunity. This way he is a lot more involved in buildup while also keeping his deadliness. 

I often used this synergy by combining an RMD with a somewhat aggressive wingback on his side and an MC who likes to switch flanks. Meanwhile on the other flank is a creative player who can use this quick transitions to serve the RMD. In 19 I used a Winger modelled to act like an IWs. I think if I revived the old concept, I'd try an APs this time but in general every supporting role should be fine. 

Only problem being that the opposite winger is a real danger of becoming the true star in such a setup ^^

I think I'll derp around soon. Either yet another cheat-ish Wolfsburg file or Mainz who look like they have a good setup for the general idea I have in mind. Or I'll finally do what I wanted to do since 17 by doing a proper Hoffenheim save ^^

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Never actually used this but this seems interesting a challenge. Without anything specific, what's a good starting framework to fit a RMD into?

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4 hours ago, XuluBak said:

It's not an option for me this season, but might look at it next. Definitely interested in giving it go at some point in the near future though. 

So, about that...

I took over at LFC late July, with limited window and time before the start of the season. My plan was a variant of 352 (started 3412, then 3142), largely because I brought in my superstar striker from Benfica (see spoiler), and he'd fared better for me in two striker sets. We've been getting results, but goal production has been erratic and not really coming from sustainable sources. I had a "throw away" Champions League group stage game at Sporting, so decided to feature him as my Raumdeuter in a 433 (4141DM Wide). He managed a brace inside 30 minutes (and tacked on a couple more late as an AF once we'd gone down a man). Enough to justify a slightly larger test. Will update when I have more!

Spoiler

Portal.thumb.jpg.f37457aab843ba2e4b2373f46d8127e9.jpg

Yes, he's a beast. Almost certainly the best player I've ever had in FM. 

Edited by XuluBak

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I have tried to get it to work this year, but I cant lol. I don't see the raumdeuters performing the way they did on last years. I even made a thread about it.

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6 hours ago, zlatanera said:

That’s just the game’s description of the role. I think it’s a verbal way of expressing that Roaming + Move Into Channels may leave them poorly placed to recover. As you can see though it can be customised to work harder. Those are Müller’s attributes too, as you said he’s not exactly going to slack off with 18 Work Rate!

Oh, I know that's the in-game description, it wasn't criticism aimed at you.

This is another one of those things where the UI is sending players on the wrong track.

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4 hours ago, crusadertsar said:

Thanks again for inspiring this thread. Hoping to see others pick up the torch too. I will probably start a new thread chronicling this (or even continue it on my Young Devils thread, since the title would still be appropriate) and then do periodic updates here. If that is okay with you. For now doing some theoretical work on what tactic would be the best to build around a Raumdeuter. 

 

PS: Yours looks like Thomas Müller, no? So Bayern save? I don't know many other players with 20 for Off the Ball haha. Anyway, love Bundesliga (although not as much as Serie A :cool:) so looking forward to it!

Glad to be inspiring you rather than the other way round for once! I don’t really mind where you post it - don’t hold back from putting more info in here out of fear of hijacking it or anything, part of my inspiration was not enough recent stuff on the Raumdeuter so the more people write the more others might consider it. At the same time I know you like to put stuff on your site then copy it over as a thread each time, so whatever you want.

Yeah it’s Müller. I previously used Raumdeuter in FM15 (Carlos Vela, then Eugen Konoplyanka, then a newgen) and FM16 (Lucas Ocampos) so the time felt right to instead use The Raumdeuter. Plus Manchester United’s squad is unbalanced enough now that I haven’t really been a true overdog in an FM19 save before. Also there’s an added challenge of getting the best out of Müller without an unrealistic drop off in Lewandowski’s production. 

1 hour ago, craigd84 said:

I have tried to get it to work this year, but I cant lol. I don't see the raumdeuters performing the way they did on last years. I even made a thread about it.

Oh that sucks, might be worth mentioning this thread isn’t FM20 exclusive (doesn’t help you much though as I know it’s quite hard to go back to outdated squads). Personally I’m on FM19, and as stated in the OP I think the role was introduced in FM15.

26 minutes ago, SD said:

Oh, I know that's the in-game description, it wasn't criticism aimed at you.

This is another one of those things where the UI is sending players on the wrong track.

Yeah, it’s slightly misleading perhaps, in that any AMR/L role will track back less than MR/L and the Raumdeuter actually has Work Rate highlighted. It’ll be interesting to see how it does work on the defensive side. 

Edited by zlatanera

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I'm playing FM20 and not seeing how the Raumdeuter is broken. I'm six matches* into this experiment, and even though the player I'm using as a Raumdeuter is still learning to play out wide, his movement and chances created as a result (not just for him) have been fantastic. The end result isn't always there, but I attribute that to him learning the position and figuring out how to get the most out of him in the position. My first choice so far has been...

Spoiler

1169775610_RMDsetup.thumb.jpg.8e2738be1ea4bd98219e02e8b50ecdec.jpg

 

Yes, that lovely green line formed in six matches. I can only imagine them playing together (with Portal as a striker) at Benfica for 4-5 years facilitated it forming that quickly.  My DM's role changes, as needed, depending on opposition, whether I'm pressing, etc.  Some roles, PIs, and TIs are very much a work in progress. So far, the majority of Portal's success has come from attacking the far post and receiving a cross from TAA/Randall on the opposite flank. He's also pounced on a rebound putback (textbook poacher style) and had some nice linkup with Correia creating chances for both. 

So far the biggest disappointment has been a lack of connection between Jaime (F9) and Portal, but hoping that will come with time in their respective positions. My midfield is still very much a work in progress. Not just tactically, but in terms of players. Matheus is virtually locked in as a long-term first-choice and can play just about any defensive/supporting role in DM/CM positions, but none of my other options have really solidified their spot in the squad (after this season), let alone as first-choice. 

* - We've played more matches, but with winter congestion, had to rotate more heavily, and don't have the personnel to incorporate an RMD with my "B team." 

Edited by XuluBak

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I am trying this out with Real Madrid, which I took over in 2023, and I am deploying Braut-Haaland as a Ramdeuter (with Luka Jovic as rotation) on the right to great effect, currently topscorer in La Liga. Will post more info as soon as the season is finished, but I am really enjoying it so far. Paired him with a False-9, a Mezzala-S and a CWB-S (support structure round him) in a short passing-system. He is also the player covering the most distance per game and who has the most key-headers in the league.

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I think the # of headers has been the biggest surprise for me so far. Small sample size, but Portal is getting more headers as a RMD than he ever did as a striker. 

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32 minutes ago, Vizzini said:

I am trying this out with Real Madrid, which I took over in 2023, and I am deploying Braut-Haaland as a Ramdeuter (with Luka Jovic as rotation) on the right to great effect, currently topscorer in La Liga. Will post more info as soon as the season is finished, but I am really enjoying it so far. Paired him with a False-9, a Mezzala-S and a CWB-S (support structure round him) in a short passing-system. He is also the player covering the most distance per game and who has the most key-headers in the league.

I've just signed Haaland and now you've peaked my interest :eek:

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1 hour ago, XuluBak said:

I think the # of headers has been the biggest surprise for me so far. Small sample size, but Portal is getting more headers as a RMD than he ever did as a striker. 

I think there are two main reasons for this, one being that his movement means that he is often at the end of crosses, and the second one is that instead of being paired against a central defender, he is more than not going against a much smaller full-back who is marking him.

There is no question that the role work as intended if we look closer at the stats, as he ranks first in goals, avg min per goal, shots, shots on target and offside. I also think PPMs are vital here. His PPMs are move into channels and likes to try to beat offside trap.

Braut.jpg

Edited by Vizzini
Adding screenshoot

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34 minutes ago, Vizzini said:

I think there are two main reasons for this, one being that his movement means that he is often at the end of crosses, and the second one is that instead of being paired against a central defender, he is more than not going against a much smaller full-back who is marking him.

That was my thinking and influenced my setup opposite him (W-Att, CWB-S; 15/16 crossing, respectively). I'm more surprised how effective it has actually been. There's also the contrast between how well that's working, vs the lack of linkup with my F9, or my midfield creating any chances for him, but there are so many factors there, and it's a relatively small sampling, so it may balance out over time.

So far, I'm really happy with how both FBs and my opposite winger have been performing since the switch. My F9 has been fantastic as well, just not in the way I expected. 4 goals, 1 assist, and the only linkup I can recall between him and my RMD have been on counterattacks.  I still need to figure out my midfield though. 

 

Edited by XuluBak

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@XuluBak I’m wondering if given the in-game description of a Raumdeuter as ‘essentially a wide Poacher’ I wouldn’t expect much link-up play whatsoever. Does the False Nine combine much with your central midfielders, and perhaps even the other wide man? Given it’s hard-coded Move Into Channels PI, Attack duty and naturally wider positioning as part of a midfield duo compared to the False Nine’s central starting position I’d maybe expect more passes between the MEZ and the Raumdeuter. Good to see you’re getting initial success either way.

 

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I'm currently using a Raumdeuter in my away formation.

He's currently doing brilliantly as my main outlet for attacking. 

d15a3b9ffd0c71a88717b6f6ba1ccdf5.png

This was his stat line for last season in which we exceeded expectations in winning promotion

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He's not suitable for the role at all, but he's played brilliantly there. He also only scores worldies.

One here and one here.

Edited by Deisler26

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22 minutes ago, zlatanera said:

@XuluBak I’m wondering if given the in-game description of a Raumdeuter as ‘essentially a wide Poacher’ I wouldn’t expect much link-up play whatsoever. Does the False Nine combine much with your central midfielders, and perhaps even the other wide man? Given it’s hard-coded Move Into Channels PI, Attack duty and naturally wider positioning as part of a midfield duo compared to the False Nine’s central starting position I’d maybe expect more passes between the MEZ and the Raumdeuter. Good to see you’re getting initial success either way.

I was envisioning...

  • Back post runs with the ball far side - Seeing a lot of this.
  • Tandem play with my LB (WB-A), resulting in a pull back - They've actually played really well off each other, but usually, the chances are being created for the LB. The only time I can think of their play creating a chance for the RMD was when he held it up, played it back, then the LB played him through first touch. 
  • One-twos or one-touch passing from the F9 (basically, thinking Firmino) - Seen little to none of this, which probably has more to do with my F9 at this point. Not only is he learning the position, but he's very one-footed. His passing attributes are pretty insane for a striker though, so the potential is definitely there.
  • RMD making timely diagonal runs, between the RB and RCB, with long balls from midfield or even BPD - Haven't seen any of this yet.
  • Mezzela playing him into the space the F9 vacates - This one might be a reach. Definitely haven't seen it, although, my Mezzela has been underwhelming for me in general. He might be a better fit as a Shadow Striker, which could be interesting, although, I much prefer 433 to 4231. 

Not playing quite the way I expected in some areas, but overall, it's working well enough to stick with it the rest of the season and see what happens. I've got my eye on one of Juve's CMs, but unless I can pull that off, I'll likely see it through with my current squad and see what happens the rest of the season. 

 

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11 hours ago, XuluBak said:

Tandem play with my LB (WB-A), resulting in a pull back - They've actually played really well off each other, but usually, the chances are being created for the LB. The only time I can think of their play creating a chance for the RMD was when he held it up, played it back, then the LB played him through first touch. 

You mean your LB is getting scoring chances? Or he's getting a pull back and then putting a cross in?

11 hours ago, XuluBak said:

One-twos or one-touch passing from the F9 (basically, thinking Firmino) - Seen little to none of this, which probably has more to do with my F9 at this point. Not only is he learning the position, but he's very one-footed. His passing attributes are pretty insane for a striker though, so the potential is definitely there.

I think you're right in not being definitive in your judgement whilst he's still learning the position - I even once had a player get worse once I'd gotten him familiar with his role, although that was with a very ill-balanced tactic.

11 hours ago, XuluBak said:

RMD making timely diagonal runs, between the RB and RCB, with long balls from midfield or even BPD - Haven't seen any of this yet.

I've never really seen much of this on FM full stop tbh. It might be interesting to see your full tactic on this, to see if there are instructions potentially conflicting with one or both of these ideas (I myself am hoping to see the occasional long ball from my BPD given its Boateng, who did it before for Guardiola). 

11 hours ago, XuluBak said:

Mezzela playing him into the space the F9 vacates - This one might be a reach. Definitely haven't seen it, although, my Mezzela has been underwhelming for me in general. He might be a better fit as a Shadow Striker, which could be interesting, although, I much prefer 433 to 4231. 

You mean the Mezzala running into the vacated space, or the Raumdeuter? In either case I think their instructions and starting positions mean they'll end up reasonably wide instead. I had a tactic where I used a CM-At with the instructions of a Shadow Striker and although he wasn't a goalscorer (it was a 4-3-3 with goals very biased towards the front three and assists from the full backs), he had a nice variation as he wouldn't go quite as wide as a Mezzala but would still make those moves into the channels and get forward - it was more my striker kept nipping in and heading in at the front post that stopped him scoring much as he was often in a good position for firing back any clearances. 

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I thought I may as well share my preliminary tactic. As previously stated I'll be playing with Bayern as they have the unique proposition of utilising a player (Thomas Müller) who had a role added to Football Manager specifically to recreate him (Raumdeuter). 

1535060248_TeamInstructions.png.788e76d6bd85ba2e5bbb1419a0cd28cb.png

I'll be going for a pretty simply set of TIs - the In Transition and Out Of Possession instructions will combine with PIs to create a split block, Play Out Of Defence is pretty much a prerequisite for me, but as I'm going with a Balanced Mentality I don't want to alter passing, tempo etc. in case I make us too cautious in possession. If this save sticks beyond the first season I'll try to look more at recreating Pep's Bayern, so this sets a nice foundation where I could transition to a more intense possession system without making it impossible to go in another direction.

Formation.thumb.png.96beeb3b30e0c7fd49d43351df3c567a.png

As you can see, quite a few bright green circles which is unlike me. Surprisingly Müller doesn't get one for Raumdeuter as the game has him as slightly better as a Pressing Forward but he's a natural AMR so no concerns there. Honestly if this works how I hope it will Bayern were just perfectly set up for this. Kimmich is naturally a less offensive full back than Alaba as he doesn't have the pace to recover, so he can sit slightly deeper behind Müller whilst Alaba has full licence to get forward as he wishes on the opposite flank. We have two BPDs and a SK-At to facilitate playing out from the back, with all three having the capabilities to go long if necessary. Martínez will sit in front of the defence whilst ahead of him Tolisso / Goretzka will get up and down the pitch all day long, both are capable of contributing at either end. Thiago will be our playmaker, alternating with James Rodríguez (I may add a 4-2-3-1 to get both of them on at the same time but given the Spaniard's injury history that might be too ambitious). Coman / Ribery will look to cut in from their flank, combining with the AP and CWB to create opportunities for Müller and Lewandowski, who gets a PF-At duty in order to a) initiate our counter-press b) be on an At duty to prevent us being too one-dimensional going forward (if Müller is the only one making runs in behind he'll be easily marked out of the game) and c) PF has one of the lower starting positions for an At duty striker, I didn't want CF or DLF as I think that Take More Risks PI will just lead to him spraying it out wide for Müller to get onto, which then would mean he couldn't be scoring. 

I'll update in a few days if this is working out. 

 

 

 

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27 minutes ago, zlatanera said:

You mean your LB is getting scoring chances? Or he's getting a pull back and then putting a cross in?

He's getting scoring chances and goals. He usually does what you'd expect, making an overlapping run, but he's good with both feet, and randomly seems to act more like an IWB making an underlapping run. I think he's gotten two goals and won a pen that way (in ten matches). He's kind of a freak FB really. He's got more goals than assists, but I think he's got more of both with his head on set pieces than his feet. And while he's actually pretty good at crossing, the frequency with which he does it seems shockingly low. He's only attempted 130 vs TAA has attempted 313 (total, not just since making the switch). 

27 minutes ago, zlatanera said:

I think you're right in not being definitive in your judgement whilst he's still learning the position - I even once had a player get worse once I'd gotten him familiar with his role, although that was with a very ill-balanced tactic.

Oh absolutely. Things aren't quite clicking 100%, but we're creating so many chances, it's working out in the end. The movement from both is absolutely fantastic. 

28 minutes ago, zlatanera said:

I've never really seen much of this on FM full stop tbh. It might be interesting to see your full tactic on this, to see if there are instructions potentially conflicting with one or both of these ideas (I myself am hoping to see the occasional long ball from my BPD given its Boateng, who did it before for Guardiola). 

I haven't either, unfortunately. I was hoping using an RMD might create that, but no luck so far. My tactic is very much a work in progress, but will post its current state later.

28 minutes ago, zlatanera said:

You mean the Mezzala running into the vacated space, or the Raumdeuter? In either case I think their instructions and starting positions mean they'll end up reasonably wide instead. I had a tactic where I used a CM-At with the instructions of a Shadow Striker and although he wasn't a goalscorer (it was a 4-3-3 with goals very biased towards the front three and assists from the full backs), he had a nice variation as he wouldn't go quite as wide as a Mezzala but would still make those moves into the channels and get forward - it was more my striker kept nipping in and heading in at the front post that stopped him scoring much as he was often in a good position for firing back any clearances. 

The RMD moving into the vacated space. The Mezzela then playing a diagonal pass behind that CB into the RMD. I actually had this happen, but it was TAA (CWB-S) making the pass. RMD was robbed by the keeper, just wide. 

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@zlatanera i am not sure if your team instructions of counter-press, much higher defensive line and much higher line of engagement are helpful for a Raumdeuter. Raumdeuter is a role that thrives on exploiting and roaming in space and running in behind opposition defence. By using these aggressive pressing instructions you will be compressing that space. As a top team like Bayern creating space will always be a problem even without those instructions. If anything I would go with standard defensive line and lower line of engagement.

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1 hour ago, XuluBak said:

He's getting scoring chances and goals. He usually does what you'd expect, making an overlapping run, but he's good with both feet, and randomly seems to act more like an IWB making an underlapping run. I think he's gotten two goals and won a pen that way (in ten matches). He's kind of a freak FB really. He's got more goals than assists, but I think he's got more of both with his head on set pieces than his feet. And while he's actually pretty good at crossing, the frequency with which he does it seems shockingly low. He's only attempted 130 vs TAA has attempted 313 (total, not just since making the switch). 

I haven't either, unfortunately. I was hoping using an RMD might create that, but no luck so far. My tactic is very much a work in progress, but will post its current state later.

The RMD moving into the vacated space. The Mezzela then playing a diagonal pass behind that CB into the RMD. I actually had this happen, but it was TAA (CWB-S) making the pass. RMD was robbed by the keeper, just wide. 

Sounds like a fun freakiness. 
Have you altered attacking width at all? Just spitballing here but I’m thinking either playing wide would give him more space to make that run by pulling the full back out towards him, or narrow would get him more centrally in the first place.

Hmm, could be any number of reasons for that. Are you watching on one of the more extended highlights modes? I’m always on Key so sometimes I think a move isn’t happening and it turns out it just keeps failing so I don’t get shown it. 

1 hour ago, crusadertsar said:

@zlatanera i am not sure if your team instructions of counter-press, much higher defensive line and much higher line of engagement are helpful for a Raumdeuter. Raumdeuter is a role that thrives on exploiting and roaming in space and running in behind opposition defence. By using these aggressive pressing instructions you will be compressing that space. As a top team like Bayern creating space will always be a problem even without those instructions. If anything I would go with standard defensive line and lower line of engagement.

I’ll keep it in mind if I run into trouble. My thinking is get him closer to goal at the offset to do more damage, if we’re winning the ball nearer our own half he’s more likely to end up doing some conventional wing play. 
Good thing about FM is me and you clearly have contrasting ideas about this yet may both end up succeeding. 

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7 minutes ago, zlatanera said:

Sounds like a fun freakiness. 
Have you altered attacking width at all? Just spitballing here but I’m thinking either playing wide would give him more space to make that run by pulling the full back out towards him, or narrow would get him more centrally in the first place.

Hmm, could be any number of reasons for that. Are you watching on one of the more extended highlights modes? I’m always on Key so sometimes I think a move isn’t happening and it turns out it just keeps failing so I don’t get shown it. 

I’ll keep it in mind if I run into trouble. My thinking is get him closer to goal at the offset to do more damage, if we’re winning the ball nearer our own half he’s more likely to end up doing some conventional wing play. 
Good thing about FM is me and you clearly have contrasting ideas about this yet may both end up succeeding. 

Fair enough. But I just think your system would work much better with a hard working inside forward though. My point is that it's not optimal for a wide poacher. I bet if you switch your role to inside forward with those instructions you will get a lot more goals.

Edited by crusadertsar

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So we're in the home stretch. One point clear with a game in hand, and into the semis of the FA Cup and UCL. I've settled on two tactics incorporating my RMD, which are largely the same, just different mindsets. I switch between them depending on opposition and how the match is going. My RMD has been...frustrating. The movement from him and my F9 has been fantastic, and we create a lot of really good chances directly from it; however, he has been astoundingly wasteful at times (and had some ridiculous offside calls go against him). There have been at least two matches where he could have scored five and ended up with none. He's also come up with some fairly huge goals, in key moments, that perfectly reflect my vision of an RMD. Late runs back post or across the box, pouncing on rebounds, etc. No goals from it yet, but also starting to deeper players picking him out on long diagonal runs. It will be very interesting to see how prolific he becomes with tactical/positional familiarity and finds good form. 

I have settled on an RPM instead of Mezzela in the RCM position. Despite being my least talented (technical) option in the midfield, he's performed by far the best in that role, offering consistency and productivity (everyone else was offering one or the other). Still a relatively small sampling and could just be a run of good form. The DLP-S was one of my top performers before the switch, seemed to struggle a fair amount after, but has returned to form. Matheus is a beast that can do pretty much anything I want from that holding position. Correia continues to underlap my RMD on occasion, often to great effect. Up to 12 goals. He only had 10 senior goals coming into the season (all in my four years at Benfica), and doesn't have great shooting/finish stats. 

RMD Press

Spoiler

365967766_RMDPress.thumb.jpg.ed70b9e37b67ff785eb3cd39e965b110.jpg

RMD Restrict

Spoiler

1644214853_RMDRestrict.thumb.jpg.249f6f0fd28ff8d82c4ba1dd5eb6fdc4.jpg

 

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On 17/02/2020 at 08:53, crusadertsar said:

@zlatanera i am not sure if your team instructions of counter-press, much higher defensive line and much higher line of engagement are helpful for a Raumdeuter. Raumdeuter is a role that thrives on exploiting and roaming in space and running in behind opposition defence. By using these aggressive pressing instructions you will be compressing that space. As a top team like Bayern creating space will always be a problem even without those instructions. If anything I would go with standard defensive line and lower line of engagement.

I get your argument, but would say that applies to any forward player running into space.  Those opportunities still exist, but they're limited by playing higher lines and/or being a dominant side. The Raumdeuter is a "wide poacher," which makes me think more of late movement. Ex: late back post runs, anticipating and pouncing on rebounds, cutting across the box (into the F9 void, if you're employing one), etc. 

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Well I finally got to play a few games in my save. After 5 games it was clear something wasn't quite right - my Raumdeuter had only 1 goal, which came from him forcing a mistake with his pressing, and was averaging about just over 1 shos per game. Our Inside Forwards meanwhile were averaging just under 4. So I change the Inside Forward to a Winger, figuring that as all my AML options are right-footed anyway we'll still get some variation in our play but the changed role will a) lead to more crosses for the Raumdeuter and b) generate slightly less selfish play from that role. 

In the next 6 games he scored 6 goals, including a perfect hat-trick against Borussia Mönchengladbach, and averaged 4 shots per game! 

Edited by zlatanera

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@crusadertsar The wing back. The winger - in both roles - isn't tending to play a final ball or get a goal with 4 goals and 4 assists in 18 games so far. So far Alaba is my top assister, followed by Müller and Lewandowski.

Interestingly I have considered dropping my press as you suggested, but not to create space for the Raumdeuter. Instead its because we keep getting done over the top, possibly due to a lack of Acceleration and Agility among my CBs and DM. But for now I'm going to play an Offside Trap, go all in on the high press. 

EDIT: So of course after writing this message, I played another game in which Robben started at LW and got a hat-trick, then was subbed off for Ribéry who added another!

Edited by zlatanera

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Which version of FM are you playing? Cause i have Ribbery in my Viola save. Thinking of using him as advanced playmaker on right wing cause he our most creative player.

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@crusadertsar FM19 - Bayern's small squad in this version appealed to me even if it would probably have been easier in FM16/17 (those squads are just too out-dated however) and I don't intend to buy FM20. I'll be honest until I ended up on his Wikipedia page earlier I'd forgotten he hadn't retired, even though I follow Fiorentina quite closely. 

I'm getting inconsistent form out of my Raumdeuter - currently Lewandowski has 6 goals on him (but 3 of those are penalties) despite a straight red and 2 match suspension. 

Edited by zlatanera

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Well, I guess I "completed" the challenge: UFM Challenge post.

Injuries and limited depth at certain positions (because of the timing and drastic nature of my tactical change) forced my hand on positions late in the season. While we succeeded with Portal at RMD, it's hard to say we succeeded because of that. His movement, along with Jaime's (F9), were fantastic, and clearly created premium scoring chances not just for themselves, but others, both directly and indirectly; however, he was far more wasteful with those chances playing RMD than as a #9.

Almost certainly the greatest benefactor of his positioning/role was Correia (LWB-A) By no means does he have the attributes to suggest he should be a prolific scorer, but he finished the season with 13 goals to go with 9 assists.  Portal ended up with 25 and 9 (mostly at RMD). Randall AMR-W(a) finished with 17 and 14 (despite not being a regular for the first third of the season and missing nearly a month afterward). Jaime (F9) had 16 and 8. Fontaine (RPM) didn't become a regular until March and managed 5 goals and 3 assists down the stretch.

I'm really curious to see how well Portal and Jaime would do as they become increasingly comfortable in those roles, but that will have to wait. That save, and especially with Portal on my side, seems like cheating. He's legitimately that good. 

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@XuluBak Are most of these guys newgens? Or are they yet more off the Benfica production line we’ll all be hearing about in 2022?

I find your goal scoring full back really interesting - he’s had a more productive season for goals than the great Giacinto Facchetti ever did! Was he more prolific in either of your tactics than the other or is the sample size too small to know?

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I thought I'd give a little mid-season update on how I'm doing r.e. the parameters of the challenge:

  • Match / Exceed the club's expectations: We're currently still in the DfB-Pokal and Champions League, but are 2nd in the league 5 points behind Mainz!! who beat us 2-1 earlier in the season. Given we have scored the most, conceded the least and have vastly superior resources myself and the board do expect them to drop off though. 
  • Raumdeuter is top (non-penalty) goalscorer: Position-wise, thanks to Serge Gnabry hitting 2 screamers as a striker in the first cup game, our Raumdeuter is 2 (non-penalty) goals behind the striker position. In terms of personnel Lewandowski, our main striker, is top with 16 goals (4 penalties) and Müller (the only Raumdeuter) is on 12 with no penalties, so level. With 7 in 17 in the league he's also on track for his best goalscoring record since 2014/15!
  • OR Raumdeuter is MVP (Goals & Assists): Müller and Lewandowski each have 4 assists, 3 each of which I believe are to the other, so Lewy does have him beat here at the moment. 

Despite being top scorers in the league and qualifying from a tough Champions League group (1st Liverpool, 2nd Bayern, 3rd Young Boys, 4th Napoli) I still feel like we could be doing better. We concede over the top later on in games which suggests to me I need some better game management, perhaps an identical version of the tactic but with Lower Tempo and/or Work Ball Into Box and Thiago as a DLP-De at DM for greater ball retention. We also do well for penetrating the box from central positions, but with the caveat that part of this is due to Alaba's crosses repeatedly either failing to beat the first man and ricocheting to a lurker, who will dribble then be tackled or shoot and miss, or being hooked into a less inviting area and headed away. The primary reason for this is he keeps taking a few extra touches, I decided his role was to blame as CWB-At has hard-selected Cross From Byline and Dribble More. Despite this he has contributed 8 assists in 21 starts so perhaps I'm expecting too much? The Inside Forward / Winger on the left also hasn't been very productive, although injuries to Gnabry and Coman may be partially to blame as despite the throwback game where Robbery scored all 4 goals, we were regularly fielding teams where only Corentin Tolisso had over 14 Acceleration. I'm going to make minor tweaks for now, but if Coman and/or Gnabry picks up a long term injury in the transfer window I'm splashing some of my €200m transfer budget on one of Leverkusen's wide players (most likely Brandt due to his versatility). 

Edited by zlatanera

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1 hour ago, zlatanera said:

@XuluBak Are most of these guys newgens? Or are they yet more off the Benfica production line we’ll all be hearing about in 2022?

I find your goal scoring full back really interesting - he’s had a more productive season for goals than the great Giacinto Facchetti ever did! Was he more prolific in either of your tactics than the other or is the sample size too small to know?

Pretty sure they're all newgen/regens (not sure the difference). I think TAA is my only key player that's real. 

I find the scoring FB extremely interesting myself, especially since his abilities and role/duty aren't really setup for that. I know he had 4 of those goals before the switch. And the goal he got in the CL final was as a LM (pretty sure that was his only CL goal and only time he played anything other than LB after the switch). Hard to pinpoint what my exact tactics were for the other 8, since it was a constant work in progress until I decided on the two I posted; however, the left side of my formation was pretty much set from the start, and generally, I was pressing far more than not in England.

I'm leaning toward taking a break from my UFM Challenge save. I've been thinking of things to try. One option, would be further diving into the RMD (less talented player, more positional familiarity), and with that, trying to recreate, and improve upon, Correia's production. If the RMD is creating that much space, what could an attacking IWB, with good shooting/finishing, do with it? 

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1 hour ago, XuluBak said:

Pretty sure they're all newgen/regens (not sure the difference). I think TAA is my only key player that's real. 

I find the scoring FB extremely interesting myself, especially since his abilities and role/duty aren't really setup for that. I know he had 4 of those goals before the switch. And the goal he got in the CL final was as a LM (pretty sure that was his only CL goal and only time he played anything other than LB after the switch). Hard to pinpoint what my exact tactics were for the other 8, since it was a constant work in progress until I decided on the two I posted; however, the left side of my formation was pretty much set from the start, and generally, I was pressing far more than not in England.

I'm leaning toward taking a break from my UFM Challenge save. I've been thinking of things to try. One option, would be further diving into the RMD (less talented player, more positional familiarity), and with that, trying to recreate, and improve upon, Correia's production. If the RMD is creating that much space, what could an attacking IWB, with good shooting/finishing, do with it? 

Personal preference is the only difference - I believe regen came about because the game used to literally reincarnate players, so you'd potential be able to 20 years down the line have a midfield of the regen versions of Beckham, Scholes, Keane and Giggs for example, whereas now they're new completely made up players.

Yeah the only thing I can see that partially explains it is in the final versions you have mostly Su duties on the right flank which might help create some that space on the left flank. 

Perhaps not even an IWB, just peak Trent Alexander-Arnold as WB-At? I imagine in FM20 he still has that strange combination of Runs With Ball Down Right and Cuts Inside From Right Wing?

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1 hour ago, zlatanera said:

Personal preference is the only difference - I believe regen came about because the game used to literally reincarnate players, so you'd potential be able to 20 years down the line have a midfield of the regen versions of Beckham, Scholes, Keane and Giggs for example, whereas now they're new completely made up players.

Yeah the only thing I can see that partially explains it is in the final versions you have mostly Su duties on the right flank which might help create some that space on the left flank. 

Perhaps not even an IWB, just peak Trent Alexander-Arnold as WB-At? I imagine in FM20 he still has that strange combination of Runs With Ball Down Right and Cuts Inside From Right Wing?

He does not. It wouldn't have to be an IWB, probably any of the attacking WB options could work as well. It helps if they're good with both feet and head though. 

I went back through his goals (including those as an actual WB). Five were from corners/free kicks. Another was a penalty (completely forgot about his hatrick!). That leaves 7 from open play, which is a lot less impressive than 13, but still informative. All of his open play goals could be attributed to one or both of the following (images in spoilers):

1) Everyone being pulled to the middle and (our) right flank, then him cutting in from a very wide (left) position backdoor. On a couple of the goals he's probably ~10 yards outside the next widest player (from either team). 

Spoiler

1494738465_Goal7.thumb.jpg.9cf8db2bb9f45b5bfd1676ee14565e44.jpg

2) Our abundance of roamers (CWB(s), Mez(a)/RPM(s), F9, RMD/T(a)) pulling defenders all over the place and him find a huge void on the left side of the penalty box.

 

Spoiler

2004401694_Goal1.thumb.jpg.d3a4325451cfd5e0717740d579ed8e49.jpg

 

Edited by XuluBak

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The Raumdeuter is something I’ve been wanting to try for a while but haven’t had a team capable of using it really so I’m starting as Liverpool. The plan is to use Salah in that role and see just how many goals he can score. 

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Figured I'd give this a shot at my latest job, so here's my projected system. Figured I'd go all in on the weirdness so I've got a false 9, a false 10, a raumdeuter, a roaming playmaker and an asymmetric formation all in one! The TIs are my standard ones (except for the overlap), the front 3 and ML have close down more as PIs. The first game was a domination, battering last seasons champions in the Super Cup, so hopefully this can take us far in the league as the club expectation is that I win it...

image.thumb.png.24f1d87a18f0f8a30c8a566fa8ad8cbc.png

 

image.thumb.png.be2a85e76b81d76b68dbf2091d8db128.png

Edited by Britrock

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@BritrockWhat do your RMD and F9 look like, ability wise?

Also, you didn't ask for advise, but I'd consider either...

1) Switching the aggressiveness of your LM and LB (i.e., W(A), FB(S)); or, 

2) Switch your CMs, although, then you end up with your RMD and RPM on the same side; or,

3) Changing your RPM to a DLP.

Currently, your left side looks extremely vulnerable defensively, especially to counter, with your LB overlapping, LCM roaming, and no DM to help out.

 

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Em 14/02/2020 em 11:11, zlatanera disse:

A long, long time ago in a galaxy far, far away... Two years ago, in a successful bid to encourage people to get further enjoyment out of FM once the initial saves had died down there were a series of tactical challenges:

More recently an FM addict (me), after a nearly five month period playing one of my favourite ever FM saves ran out of inspiration, stopping and starting multiple saves (especially in Serie A) with the longest being 18 months with Roma (which I also made a thread for but I'm not going to keep plugging myself). 

Anyway, with an actual Bundesliga title race! in real life I got looking back to the start of Bayern's period of dominance, more specifically the 2012-16 period during which Thomas Müller, a nominal right winger, scored 102 goals for his club 26 for his country. Despite just, well, this might sound cruel but if Cristiano Ronaldo could be considered the model of a 21st century footballer, Müller is one of the rejected Snoke clones. He's described himself as not being particularly effective at dribbling, usually considered a prerequisite for a wide role, but then went on to coin a term for his role as a 'space interpreter', a Raumdeuter. This role has been in FM since 2015 I think, but I've never really used it and don't tend to see it as often as Inside Forwards, Wingers or even Advanced Playmakers and Trequartistas in others’ tactics.

The Raumdeuter in-game:

1936281675_Screenshot2020-02-14at14_02_02.thumb.png.b4daf4e57cd64c966ec2370d3a115f30.png

"The Raumdeuter literally translated from German means 'space investigator'. His main role is to find pockets of space in which to operate. Essentially a wide poacher, the Raumdeuter takes up seemingly harmless positions out wide, waiting for the opportune moment to burst through the defensive line for the telling shot or cross. His is difficult for defenders to pick up as he will often drift from his assigned position looking for any opportunity to exploit. This can result in quiet periods during which the Raumdeuter may neglect his defensive duties, therefore adequate cover and a strong team shape are key in order to fully utilise his attacking prowess in the final third. The Raumdeuter is only available with an Attack duty."

1263864705_Screenshot2020-02-14at14_01_16.thumb.png.fea55e1dfc7b5ad53bf79eb77998fa9d.png

 

Given the game's description of the Raumdeuter role as well as the real life example of Müller's goalscoring exploits I've set the following criteria for success:

  • Match or exceed your chosen club's expectations for the season (if you're operating in multiple competitions, do this in more than half i.e. 1/2, 2/3, 3/4 as everyone knows cup games are tricky). 
  • The Raumdeuter is your top (non-penalty) goalscorer or most valuable player (top for combined non-penalty goals & non-set-piece assists).

That's it! I look forward to seeing if anyone else wants to take up the challenge and how you'll go about it. No prizes for guessing which team and player (his attributes are in the screenshot above) I'll be using!

This thread will self-destruct in five seconds...

Role currently bugged, isnt working on FM 2020
 

 

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33 minutes ago, thiagoanjo said:

Role currently bugged, isnt working on FM 2020

That's hardly compelling evidence that it "doesn't work." In the image posted, the other team has the ball in their half. Not sure how that's evidence the role is bugged and doesn't work. There may be instances where it's not doing what you'd want/expect, or even what it should, but that doesn't mean it doesn't work. Not working perfectly, maybe, but I've seen plenty of "poacher-like" movement from a RMD in training to be fairly confident it works on some level. 

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3 minutos atrás, XuluBak disse:

That's hardly compelling evidence that it "doesn't work." In the image posted, the other team has the ball in their half. Not sure how that's evidence the role is bugged and doesn't work. There may be instances where it's not doing what you'd want/expect, or even what it should, but that doesn't mean it doesn't work. Not working perfectly, maybe, but I've seen plenty of "poacher-like" movement from a RMD in training to be fairly confident it works on some level. 

Already tested, isnt working, the role doesnt exploit or investigate spaces. They come too deep in our own pitch, sitting too close to opposite players, the only thing they supposely shouldnt do it. 

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46 minutes ago, XuluBak said:

@BritrockWhat do your RMD and F9 look like, ability wise?

Also, you didn't ask for advise, but I'd consider either...

1) Switching the aggressiveness of your LM and LB (i.e., W(A), FB(S)); or, 

2) Switch your CMs, although, then you end up with your RMD and RPM on the same side; or,

3) Changing your RPM to a DLP.

Currently, your left side looks extremely vulnerable defensively, especially to counter, with your LB overlapping, LCM roaming, and no DM to help out.

 

Cheers, that's something I hadn't thought of. I've dropped the ML to a defensive winger on support for a bit more cover on that side.

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Glad to see someone else taking up the challenge @Britrock!

Personally I've found, as I often do at the moment, that having too much time to play FM means I end up getting pulled in all different directions for my current save: I've reloaded 1st January and played the first 3 games after the winter break 4 or 5 times today, getting better results each time yet getting nothing out of Müller and not making myself feel much better either. I may start the save over completely as I have been feeling myself pulled toward something Pep-esque with IWBs (which is a role I haven't used in a self-created tactic ever, and only in a downloaded / copied one once about 3 years ago), perhaps even fully playing on easy mode and utilising the 1st transfer window, which is something I rarely ever do.

Edited by zlatanera

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Images to come later.

Just started with Augsburg and besides his average speed Finnbogason is a beast! In the preseason he scored nine in ten games and could have had four more but unfortunately his low positional skill resulted in four offsides.

When I brought in Fedor Chalov as striking partner (and replacement for later) I even saw quite some acts of beauty! The league had some good results as well but four games in Baier is the only constant — My opposite wingers switched ratings, Chalov and Finn are acting more balanced instead of being pure passer and pure scorer, and Lichtsteiner is a force to behold again. 

Current formation: SKs—WBs, CD, BPD, WBs—DMd—DLPs, MEZa—RMD, Ws—DLFs. Instructions one step up with the lines and pressing, playing out of the defense, counter and counter-pressing and offside trap. 

I think my biggest hurdle will be to generate 15m in transfer revenue. I really want Uduokhai but Chalov ate my budget and now I'm in the red not even two months in. Another problem will be to keep myself going — I got distracted by the Enganche again...

 

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