Winger or Inverted Winger, and Wingback or Inverted Winback

[Arsenal457]

I know it may seem like a simple concept, but I still can't decide what to use, how to use, or when to use Inverted Wingers or Wingers, and Wingbacks or Inverted Wingbacks. How do I decide what to use, what should I be looking for in a player to perform these roles, and when should I used them? I do know for Inverted Wingers and Wingers to look what side the strong foot is on, but this goes for signing players as well, what role I should be looking at.

Edited February 14, 2020 by Arsenal457

[likesiamesefish]

IWBs will move into a DM slot when you push forward so they're handy if you need an extra body in midfield. I'd just experiment between W & IW, doesn't really matter an awful amount at the end of the day and will depend on the players available and your other roles although I tend to avoid both and use IF-A because I play a single striker system with no AMC.

[Maldini's Heir]

46 minutes ago, Arsenal457 said:

I know it may seem like a simple concept, but I still can't decide what to use, how to use, or when to use Inverted Wingers or Wingers, and Wingbacks or Inverted Wingbacks. How do I decide what to use, what should I be looking for in a player to perform these roles, and when should I used them? I do know for Inverted Wingers and Wingers to look what side the strong foot is on, but this goes for signing players as well, what role I should be looking at.

Use the position that best suits the players....

When you select a player for a position see what gives them the most green. I find that more important than worrying too much about the positions. 

[Snorks]

Haven't really used and IWB so don't feel I can comment properly, but @likesiamesefish seems to be a solid explanation for them.

The difference between W and IW I am a bit more familiar with, but would also bring in the IF as part of the discussion. 

As simple as I can put it, the Winger will try and get round the outside of the fullback to deliver a cross - needs pace, dribbling, crossing to perform well, also needs a decent central attacker  to get on the end of the cross. Wingers do, if the attack is on the opposite flank, also make runs to the far post as well when the crosses come in and can score a few from there.

The IW is a slightly less aggressive  version of the IF in the same AML/R slot. Where a Winger attacks down the flank to provide assists, the IF cuts inside and drives at the box to create a scoring chance OR an assist. The IW on the other hand, tends to cut inside a little earlier in the attack and looks to provide assists with passes and through balls behind the defence.

The choice of which to use, for me, often comes down to the Striker I have in the center and the kind of opportunities he might be able to exploit. AS with most things FM, the surrounding roles/duties and players influence the way your player behaves during the game as well, so be aware that an IW playing with a big, slow Target Man, will most likely be less effective than a Winger, or an IF. An IW with a quick pacey striker could be devestating against a high line with space in behind.

[Hazpro]

9 hours ago, Arsenal457 said:

I know it may seem like a simple concept, but I still can't decide what to use, how to use, or when to use Inverted Wingers or Wingers, and Wingbacks or Inverted Wingbacks. How do I decide what to use, what should I be looking for in a player to perform these roles, and when should I used them? I do know for Inverted Wingers and Wingers to look what side the strong foot is on, but this goes for signing players as well, what role I should be looking at.

When looking at w/b's and i/w's or wingers the genareal idea is to make sure they are set to different areas  of the pitch as you don't want them both crossing from the byline or deep, thats when you keep seeing them close together on screen.

If you played your m/l or a/m/l as an i/w and your i/w/b they would both be looking to cut inside if you use w/b he can overlap i/w/b's don't.

Don't know if that helps.

[themadsheep2001]

I frequently use all of them: the entirely opened answer is that it depends on what you're trying to achieve. Start with what you want from your players on the flanks

[craigcwwe]

I have a quite successful 532 going with Torino on FM19 using two IWB-s and two wingers ahead of them at ML/MR positions. Really helped my team to build up from deep and was really good for possession. First season I used it I won the league losing just once. Matchday 36 1-0 vs Fiorentina. So close to my first ever unbeaten season on FM, alas, the IWB-s are good to cut inside and put another DM/CM further upfield perhaps to give them space to move into, remember though if you opt for that role you ideally want some width in your team so a IWB and winger/WM combo is pretty good and worked really nice for me. 

IW is a wide man that will cut inside and look to create predominatly whereas the IF is more selfish in comparison and although he will look to create a chance or two for the other forwards he's much more interested in scoring himself. 

Edited February 14, 2020 by craigcwwe

[Arsenal457]

These are all massive helps, thank you. How would the roles interact with a PFa or CFa up front, and what would work best?

[sporadicsmiles]

Both roles differ on how they move when you have the ball. Wingers and wingbacks will stay wider and attack the flanks. Inside wingers and wingbacks will cut inside. How and when you use them depends entirely on the tactic and what you want to achieve.

For instance you may use an IWB if you have a midfielder on the same side who is roaming. For example, if I played a MCR as a CM(A), then an IWB(S) on the right flank would move into the space the CM(A) has left unoccupied. I would probably couple this with a winger to provide width on the right flank.

An IW and an IF are essentially the same role, except the IW has less fixed player instructions. So they are a little bit more customizable. And example of using an IW or IF would be if you have a striker on the same side (or a lone striker) who is in a support role and is dropping deeper. This can pull defenders out of shape, and the IW/IF can move into that space when you attack as a goal treat. This works nicely with a wingback, as this player will stay wider, naturally overlap and provide width. You can pair this sort of thing with a more static midfield role (as you do not want two players moving into the same space when you attack, so a CM(A) and an IW(A) may not be a good idea). Something like a DLP or AP on support will provide a link for the two wider players.

These are of course just two examples. There are many ways you can set up your roles and duties, it entirely depends on the type of football you want to play.

In terms of picking people for the role. For wingers you typically want a player who can dribble and cross (and flair is nice to have). It is better if their preferred foot is the same side that they play on (so a right winger would be right footed). Typically a right footed winger can also play as an IW/IF on the left wing too. They will cut inside onto their right foot, which is usually good for their shooting angles. IF you probably want to have good finishing as well. Dribbling and flair is also good. Pacy wide players with good balance are always desirable.

Wingbacks you can treat like wingers, except it is nice for them to have good defensive attributes too. Stamina and work rate are useful if they are going to shuttling up and down the flanks all game long. IWB you can treat a little bit like midfielders, since that is where they will play. They need to be able to pass the ball at least a little bit. Creativity is also nice, but not absolutely necessary. You can also be like Guardiola and retrain midfielders as fullbacks so they can play in the role naturally and also be good for midfield. They also should have good work rate and stamina, because they are shuttling around. Since both roles are going to draw the player quite far from their defensive role, you typically want to play your best CB on the same side as them, because they may have a lot of defensive work to do.

[99]

13 horas atrás, Maldini's Heir disse:

Use the position that best suits the players....

When you select a player for a position see what gives them the most green. I find that more important than worrying too much about the positions. 

My biggest tactical leap in Football Manager was when I learned (in this forum and related blogs) that what you said basically doesn't matter.

[themadsheep2001]

1 hour ago, Arsenal457 said:

These are all massive helps, thank you. How would the roles interact with a PFa or CFa up front, and what would work best?

I would say it depends on what you want from your forward:

• The winger will cross more when ball is on his flank, but can provide a scoring threat if the ball is on the other side
• The inverted winger will pick up the ball wider and drive more diagonally towards goal
• The wing back again will provide width and a passing option round the outside
• The inverted full back acts like another midfielder, and can almost be seen as another playmaker with the right PPMS

 

[enigmatic]

Wingers and IWs are somewhat similar, but the winger nearly always stays wide and crosses, the IW runs at the fullback and crosses, cuts back or shoots from inside the penalty area depending on how much space they get. So the winger role is better suited to players who have good crossing, but don't necessarily need as much skill and intelligence, though speed to dribble to the byline is useful, and if they're crossing from the byline you'd prefer right footed players on the right side. The IW role benefits more from all round skill, doesn't make quite as much use of raw pace, and the inverted winger role will allow a left footed player on the right side more options to use their stronger foot to cross

From the point of view of how they interact with strikers, they'll get more crosses on their head from a winger and more cutbacks and one-two opportunities from an IW.

Wingbacks and IWBs are totally different: wingbacks overlap and cross and IWBs clog the midfield. The former tend to directly create more chances for your strikers from wide attacking positions[but only if they can cross], the latter are better at retaining possession and winning the ball back, but their main creative contribution is likely to be letting midfielders get further forward, unless they've got a cracking long shot on them. 

[Arsenal457]

7 hours ago, themadsheep2001 said:

I would say it depends on what you want from your forward:

• The winger will cross more when ball is on his flank, but can provide a scoring threat if the ball is on the other side
• The inverted winger will pick up the ball wider and drive more diagonally towards goal
• The wing back again will provide width and a passing option round the outside
• The inverted full back acts like another midfielder, and can almost be seen as another playmaker with the right PPMS

 

What about an IF? I’m now considering them, but I wasn’t before. I thought IW was better due to not having the play risky passes PI set.

[enigmatic]

The IF tries to get into scoring positions more, but crosses less.

[Rashidi]

On 14/02/2020 at 09:32, Arsenal457 said:

I know it may seem like a simple concept, but I still can't decide what to use, how to use, or when to use Inverted Wingers or Wingers, and Wingbacks or Inverted Wingbacks. How do I decide what to use, what should I be looking for in a player to perform these roles, and when should I used them? I do know for Inverted Wingers and Wingers to look what side the strong foot is on, but this goes for signing players as well, what role I should be looking at.

Wingers - attack the flanks, occasionally attack the box as a secondary striker when play is on the opposite flank. Primary purpose adding width and delivering crosses
Inverted Wingers - Start wide then drift inside to look for diagonal crosses chances. Usually we get the best out of them when they are played on the flank opposite their favoured foot. So a right footed IW should ideally be played on the left flank, with the traits likes to curl the ball with his favoured foot. Primary purpose creative, secondary purpose - goal scoring.
Inside Forwards - Start wide then cuts inside to attack the box. They have a higher mentality and this influences their more risky approach of attacking the box. An IW and an IF on the same duty on the same tier will see the IF always on a higher mentality. The IF is hardcoded to be more inclined towards being aggressive in attacking the box. Secondary purpose -link up play and occasionally playing others in.

Wingers - Create chances for others
IW - Create chances for others
IF - look for chances for themselves and occasionally for others

Player traits also play a big role and these can influence how each role might play further:

Wingers with cut inside and arrive into opposition area will sometimes behave like IFs
IFs who have runs down the flank will occasionally behave like wingers
When playing an IF or an IW on his favoured foot on the same flank, they can sometimes favour their favoured foot. So a winger whose favoured foot is right and is playing on the right flank may occasionally drive inside.

Choosing the right role for your players is secondary to the overall style you are trying to achieve. For example, someone who may want to replicate how Liverpool play would probably be more inclined to choosing IW for Sadio Mane on the left flank and IF for Salah on the right flank. However to get their driving runs in some games you may opt to use them on attack and in some matches you may want to use them on support duty. Why would this be the case?

Against teams that sit back you may want both of them on support allowing play to build up with more players so you can use the numbers that come up in attack to create overloads forcing more players to one side to deal with the extra numbers that come with more support duties. Having more support duties isn't the only thing that will produce this. You would need to play with the right defensive line as well, since you want more players to be involved in the build up transition. In other matches perhaps you may want a more direct style and you could simply want to drive specific flanks which may be unoccupied as a result of the opposition playing with an aggressive flank attack. Here one could opt to play an IW on support on one flank and an IF on attack on the other flank to take advantage. 

So you see, the choice of roles and duties is really more than just choosing the right role for the right player, it also depends on what you want the rest of the team to do, and how they may play against specific opposition.

[Guest]

Have a look here 

 

[llama3]

Agree with the above points - your players shouldn't be setup in isolation - you need to consider who they combine with and how the roles and duties interact. A Wing Back (Attack) and Winger (Attack) will both be trying to cross from the byline, driving aggressively forward - it's about how to get players working in tandem to complement each other. 

[Arsenal457]

17 hours ago, Rashidi said:

Wingers - attack the flanks, occasionally attack the box as a secondary striker when play is on the opposite flank. Primary purpose adding width and delivering crosses
Inverted Wingers - Start wide then drift inside to look for diagonal crosses chances. Usually we get the best out of them when they are played on the flank opposite their favoured foot. So a right footed IW should ideally be played on the left flank, with the traits likes to curl the ball with his favoured foot. Primary purpose creative, secondary purpose - goal scoring.
Inside Forwards - Start wide then cuts inside to attack the box. They have a higher mentality and this influences their more risky approach of attacking the box. An IW and an IF on the same duty on the same tier will see the IF always on a higher mentality. The IF is hardcoded to be more inclined towards being aggressive in attacking the box. Secondary purpose -link up play and occasionally playing others in.

Wingers - Create chances for others
IW - Create chances for others
IF - look for chances for themselves and occasionally for others

Player traits also play a big role and these can influence how each role might play further:

Wingers with cut inside and arrive into opposition area will sometimes behave like IFs
IFs who have runs down the flank will occasionally behave like wingers
When playing an IF or an IW on his favoured foot on the same flank, they can sometimes favour their favoured foot. So a winger whose favoured foot is right and is playing on the right flank may occasionally drive inside.

Choosing the right role for your players is secondary to the overall style you are trying to achieve. For example, someone who may want to replicate how Liverpool play would probably be more inclined to choosing IW for Sadio Mane on the left flank and IF for Salah on the right flank. However to get their driving runs in some games you may opt to use them on attack and in some matches you may want to use them on support duty. Why would this be the case?

Against teams that sit back you may want both of them on support allowing play to build up with more players so you can use the numbers that come up in attack to create overloads forcing more players to one side to deal with the extra numbers that come with more support duties. Having more support duties isn't the only thing that will produce this. You would need to play with the right defensive line as well, since you want more players to be involved in the build up transition. In other matches perhaps you may want a more direct style and you could simply want to drive specific flanks which may be unoccupied as a result of the opposition playing with an aggressive flank attack. Here one could opt to play an IW on support on one flank and an IF on attack on the other flank to take advantage. 

So you see, the choice of roles and duties is really more than just choosing the right role for the right player, it also depends on what you want the rest of the team to do, and how they may play against specific opposition.

This is super helpful, thank you so much

[Maldini's Heir]

On 15/02/2020 at 02:48, 99 said:

My biggest tactical leap in Football Manager was when I learned (in this forum and related blogs) that what you said basically doesn't matter.

Glad I could help....

[99]

Em 16/02/2020 em 23:28, Maldini's Heir disse:

Glad I could help....

Don't get me wrong, wasn't attacking you.

I did the same before, made my tactics based on how green the player's positions and roles were. Then by reading here people like @Cleon, @Rashidi and others I learned that it doesn't matter, it was eye opening for me.

I'm sorry if you thought something else from my comment.

[Maldini's Heir]

On 18/02/2020 at 11:34, 99 said:

Don't get me wrong, wasn't attacking you.

I did the same before, made my tactics based on how green the player's positions and roles were. Then by reading here people like @Cleon, @Rashidi and others I learned that it doesn't matter, it was eye opening for me.

I'm sorry if you thought something else from my comment.

Don't worry about it. I was joking 

I am more concerned that this game rewards playing players out of position.