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Alerion

Struggling to get anything working this year (4-2-3-1)

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Hello guys,

to start off, normally I love delving into the game, developing and testing unique tactics for my teams and watching games over full length in pre-season and tinkering to create my perfect fitting tactic in every FM. I managed to this in every version over the last couple years, except for this. I posted a bunch of times before in the tactic help forum but never got quite this frustrated as eventually success started to come after a bunch of tips from you guys.

I managed a bunch of teams this year, the likes of City, Salzburg, Lazio, Barcelona, Gladbach or Marseille and I never, never ever, was successful. I probably got sacked more times than I won league title, the only noteable achievement was the domestic treble with City (year 2022 or so, complete OP squad).

 

Now my lattest team I tried to manage was/is Stuttgart. A very talented side at the start in the 2. Bundesliga where I managed to get promoted in the first season, but only barely managed to get 2nd after bottling the leauge title in the last few games. I immediatly got relegated in the Bundesliga (note that I used a different tactic, more defensive and counter heavily) and after a strong start to the season, it seems that I once again will be sacked soon. So lets get started.

 

1021492305_Tacticsscreen.thumb.PNG.07e21aa8b3fa6fc85adc1e079f5d018a.PNG

So this is my current tactic. As Stuttgart I am supposed to steamroll the 2. Bundesliga with this team and therefore I decided to use a more possession based/dominant tactic. Names like Schlager/Brekalo/Gnagnon should be pretty known so you see the team is very good and should even be useable for the 1. Bundesliga.

as for PI´s, the only things I use are "less crossing" and "cross from byline" as A) my striker isnt the biggest and B) crossing isnot very effective

Schedule.thumb.PNG.b99573ca37df452e070a9e17da506e80.PNG

I started the season well and I was very excited. Was I finally getting the grip of FM20 ? Am I finally able to enjoy the game ? Nope. Big nope in my face, yet again. I did not change anything with the tactic, no injuries or rotation, I used my first team and the same tactic. As you can see, defensively we are pretty solid. We struggle to score goals, although I play with "Work ball into the box" most of my games look like 20 shots -5 shots on target. My possession is also very good, I think i average around 60%, 

 

So now that you have a good overview of whats going on, please, if you would be so kind guys, take a look and tell me whats going wrong. I know that "bad runs" happen but again, this happens the entire FM20. Its frustrating and I am pretty sure this is the least fun I had with FM in the last 5 years. If you need any additional informations, please hit me up. Thank you !

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Are you seeing opponents punishing your right side? The BBM might not cover sufficiently for the attacking full back? Positive and high line could mean there's quite some space to exploit back there if you lose the ball. 

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vor 3 Minuten schrieb Footix:

Are you seeing opponents punishing your right side? The BBM might not cover sufficiently for the attacking full back? Positive and high line could mean there's quite some space to exploit back there if you lose the ball. 

I did get exploited a lot before the newest ME update with through  balls/over the top balls because my CB´s wanted to make careers as Michael Jackson double´s and just ran backwards. I "fixed" this before the update with a normal/deeper d-line and since the newest update it actually never happend again. Changing the FB/BBM roles might be something I look into but for now I suppose not scoring enough is what troubles me most.

Thank you tho :)

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As you are a promotion candidate, I imagine that most teams are happy to sit back and wait for counter, so pass into space is not an ideal instruction as there's no space to exploit. Also, an AF could struggle to find space to attack, for the same reason and because you're on positive mentality and with an high def line, so quite high on the pitch. You say that you want a possession tactic, so why higher tempo?

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vor 13 Minuten schrieb pauso:

As you are a promotion candidate, I imagine that most teams are happy to sit back and wait for counter, so pass into space is not an ideal instruction as there's no space to exploit. Also, an AF could struggle to find space to attack, for the same reason and because you're on positive mentality and with an high def line, so quite high on the pitch. You say that you want a possession tactic, so why higher tempo?

My AF is my topscorer tho. The higher temp is simply because I want them to move quicker and pass quicker, possession is still possible and it also works ingame, I never have less than 55% possession, even in away games.

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I would say you are being a little too patient in your buildup, which will allow sides to get into position and hold their shape while you patiently build up and then patiently probe the box. I imagine most teams set up defensively against you, which means you have to break them down. This is always tricky.

In terms of roles and duties.

- I would change the IF to support and but an attacking wing back or fullback behind him. This creates natural overlaps and overloads that side of the defense a little. Which is good. The CM(D) covers the attacking FB more naturally as well. The support duty IF will be involved in build up play more and make later darts into the box.

- I would change the IW to a W(A), and pair him with less adventurous wingback. Something like a WB(D) or FB(S), play around with it. The winger will stretch the defense wider, and can link up to create overloads with the BBM and the WB/FB. You can try to set hit early crosses for the fullback on this side too, since he may often hoover up blocked crosses from the winger, so hit them in quickly to the AF and the IF.

- You can stick with the BBM if you like it and it does not cause you defensive issues. Paired with an AP(S) it should be fine anyway. Alternatively you can use a DLP(S) in CM and a AM(A) or SS(A) or T(A) in AM. This will change the point of attack. Any time you come up against two man DMC formations, move your playmaker back, because he is going to struggle to dominate the game surrounded by players.

In terms of instructions.

- pass into space and shorter passing does not really make sense. Shorter passes into space? I'd pick the one you want more and use it. You can always make specific changes in matches if you want to be more direct or less direct (depends which way you go).

- I do not know if you really need to work ball into box, especially if you are not actually scoring. I'd drop it initially and see if things improve. It is good for possession but if you are not creating chances, it does not help.

- Play out of defense could be an issue if you see the AI just retreating and you give them too much time to get into their defensive shape. If you see this, remove it. You want to attack them quicker in that case. You can always add it back when you are winning and want to keep the ball and tiki taka them to submission.

- If a team is offering absolutely no offense against you, consider switching to attacking mentality. This will make everything more urgent and more risk oriented. It can help break down a stubborn side, and most of the risks are mitigated if the other side is not bothering to cross half way except via long balls.

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vor 4 Stunden schrieb sporadicsmiles:

I would say you are being a little too patient in your buildup, which will allow sides to get into position and hold their shape while you patiently build up and then patiently probe the box. I imagine most teams set up defensively against you, which means you have to break them down. This is always tricky.

In terms of roles and duties.

- I would change the IF to support and but an attacking wing back or fullback behind him. This creates natural overlaps and overloads that side of the defense a little. Which is good. The CM(D) covers the attacking FB more naturally as well. The support duty IF will be involved in build up play more and make later darts into the box.

- I would change the IW to a W(A), and pair him with less adventurous wingback. Something like a WB(D) or FB(S), play around with it. The winger will stretch the defense wider, and can link up to create overloads with the BBM and the WB/FB. You can try to set hit early crosses for the fullback on this side too, since he may often hoover up blocked crosses from the winger, so hit them in quickly to the AF and the IF.

- You can stick with the BBM if you like it and it does not cause you defensive issues. Paired with an AP(S) it should be fine anyway. Alternatively you can use a DLP(S) in CM and a AM(A) or SS(A) or T(A) in AM. This will change the point of attack. Any time you come up against two man DMC formations, move your playmaker back, because he is going to struggle to dominate the game surrounded by players.

In terms of instructions.

- pass into space and shorter passing does not really make sense. Shorter passes into space? I'd pick the one you want more and use it. You can always make specific changes in matches if you want to be more direct or less direct (depends which way you go).

- I do not know if you really need to work ball into box, especially if you are not actually scoring. I'd drop it initially and see if things improve. It is good for possession but if you are not creating chances, it does not help.

- Play out of defense could be an issue if you see the AI just retreating and you give them too much time to get into their defensive shape. If you see this, remove it. You want to attack them quicker in that case. You can always add it back when you are winning and want to keep the ball and tiki taka them to submission.

- If a team is offering absolutely no offense against you, consider switching to attacking mentality. This will make everything more urgent and more risk oriented. It can help break down a stubborn side, and most of the risks are mitigated if the other side is not bothering to cross half way except via long balls.

So here is what I changed :

1501640014_Tactics2.thumb.PNG.bea05877ea97b1a11d8e2ca000f62fa1.PNG

- IF on support, immediatly he scored twice in the first goal -> positive change so far

- I am not sure about the W/A tbh, I dont have a natural winger (with good crossing), but I have 2 good left footed IW´s, especially Serrano. I did change the FB to support tho, nothing noticeable as of yet.

- changed the BBM to a DLP and the APM to AM/T, I did struggle defensively a lot tho (screens follow) which I guess happens because the DLP doesnt attack as early as the BBM.

Instructions:

- no pass into space, also lowered the tempo one tick. Not sure, goals are still a rarity.

- no work the ball into box, resulted into more shots without shots on target. Highlight, the game vs Aue. 15 shots, 3 on targets, not a single CCC while having 59% possession. Meanwhile they won with 4 shots on target and also no CCC.

 

802713014_GameagainstAue.thumb.PNG.14ebd8b7607f300466771d7fc96fb804.PNG

- removed "play out of defense". Again, nothing noticeable changed, I still have lots of possession, I still dont score enough. Maybe I should try the "Counter" TI to see if I can score more goals.

And those are the results:

 

1996512544_Schedule2.thumb.PNG.8b0facebcc9c8c128fe23fcd1e9c0597.PNG

So basically TLDR;

I am still in the job, barely, but results are still ****. 5 goals scored, 4 conceded. Lost the only home game tho funnily enough (again, not a single CCC with 19 shots/10 on target)

Despite having 3 people in the front 4 on attack, I cannot score for if our lifes depend on it. I am bossing possession, my passing % are good, my tackles won % are good, my players are quality wise miles and miles better than anything the league has to offer, I am having more shots each game, I am having more possession each game, I basically have everything more each game. My team is the dominant side, I am the clear favourite but I can never show it. I am seriously considering quitting this FM as nothing seems to work, its frustrating the every living hell out of me and I really dont know what else to try.

 

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31 minutes ago, Alerion said:

- I am not sure about the W/A tbh, I dont have a natural winger (with good crossing), but I have 2 good left footed IW´s, especially Serrano. I did change the FB to support tho, nothing noticeable as of yet.

If you do not have the players, ignore the advice. A winger who is going to struggle makes no sense, so play around to see what you think does work.

32 minutes ago, Alerion said:

- changed the BBM to a DLP and the APM to AM/T, I did struggle defensively a lot tho (screens follow) which I guess happens because the DLP doesnt attack as early as the BBM.

If it does not work, you should go back to how it was. I think the setup you had was already okay, I just suggested an alternative, which apparently does not work as well. A BBM can be nice if you need to unlock an attack anyway.

33 minutes ago, Alerion said:

- no pass into space, also lowered the tempo one tick. Not sure, goals are still a rarity.

You could always try the other way. Up one tick on directness, put pass into space on (assuming you have space to pass into), and keep the tempo high. I use pass into space sparingly myself, mostly when an AI team is playing a high defensive line to give balls for forwards to chase.

35 minutes ago, Alerion said:

- no work the ball into box, resulted into more shots without shots on target. Highlight, the game vs Aue. 15 shots, 3 on targets, not a single CCC while having 59% possession. Meanwhile they won with 4 shots on target and also no CCC.

Why did you have so few shots on target? What are those off target shots? Long shots? Headers from set pieces? These are the two usual suspects. Narrowing that down can help determine what you need to change. Have a look at the analysis of a couple of games, even if you have to look at each shot. Note down what the shot was (on paper or mentally). That will help you build up a picture of what your shots are.

37 minutes ago, Alerion said:

- removed "play out of defense". Again, nothing noticeable changed, I still have lots of possession, I still dont score enough. Maybe I should try the "Counter" TI to see if I can score more goals.

That is one possibility indeed. I find that even without playing out of defense if I distribute to defenders they can take forever to get the ball forward. Maybe you can also play around with the distribution TI to see if you find something that works. You can also try "be more expressive" which will encourage your players to do something different.

39 minutes ago, Alerion said:

Despite having 3 people in the front 4 on attack, I cannot score for if our lifes depend on it. I am bossing possession, my passing % are good, my tackles won % are good, my players are quality wise miles and miles better than anything the league has to offer, I am having more shots each game, I am having more possession each game, I basically have everything more each game. My team is the dominant side, I am the clear favourite but I can never show it. I am seriously considering quitting this FM as nothing seems to work, its frustrating the every living hell out of me and I really dont know what else to try.

I can understand the frustration, I am sure we have all felt it at some point. I hate having to break down sides who have come out to put 10 men behind the ball all match and not look to score. There is always a way to make these things work, it just can take some effort. A 4231 is a pain in the backside to set up anyway. You have to get it just right and your midfielders need to be good all-round players. Depending on how set you are on a 4231, you could also try shifting the AMC to a DMC and setting up a what the game calls 4141 wide. The DMC gives extra defensive stability, and take some pressure of the CMs to defend.

And remember that it is a game, however much we love playing and torturing ourselves. If it is not giving you pleasure to play, take a break and come back when you feeling like playing again. After all, we play for fun.

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1 hour ago, Alerion said:

Despite having 3 people in the front 4 on attack, I cannot score for if our lifes depend on it. I am bossing possession, my passing % are good, my tackles won % are good, my players are quality wise miles and miles better than anything the league has to offer, I am having more shots each game, I am having more possession each game, I basically have everything more each game. My team is the dominant side, I am the clear favourite but I can never show it. I am seriously considering quitting this FM as nothing seems to work, its frustrating the every living hell out of me and I really dont know what else to try.

You have become Bielsa managing Leeds. Congrats! 

Seriously, I have the same problem mostly with this game. I would have tried bringing them IF:s and wingers down one notch to midfield. They will attack anyways and maybe with more space to get up to speed in. Sometimes I forget that the players will play perfectly ok from more moderate positions if they are good enough. 

One other thing I have noticed in this game is that I sometimes benefit from pumping the game up by altering in-game between one lower more conter-like tactic and one more gegenpressing (with similar formation so I don't have to swap players around). Don't know if that confuses the ME or what. 

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I find myself disagreeing with almost all of the advice that's been given so far.  You're trying to play an aggressive tactic, but struggling to score goals, and most of the changes are more conservative. How does that help you score goals?  Some random thoughts (with the caveat that I don't/haven't played at lower, non-professional levels where you have to simplify)

1) If you want to be possession oriented, then play out of the back and don't pass into space. Also, playing narrower can be helpful. That doesn't mean go to the other extreme, but if you're set wide, then you need more expansive passing, which is counter to the idea of maintaining possession. 

2) I don't understand the switch from AF to PF. The former score goals, the latter do not. That's a gross oversimplification, but largely true in my experience. 

3) If your AMR are left foot dominant, then they should be IW. I'm a huge fan of IWs. So much so, that I don't even use IFs anymore. Changing them to wingers doesn't make much sense, especially if they're poor at crossing. 

4) I advocate for playing your FB/WBs as aggressively as you can, without it costing you too much defensively. Sometimes the best defense is a good offense, there's no better example than attacking FBs. That, of course, assumes your FBs have the skillset necessary to make it work. Do they have the work rate? Stamina? Pace? Mentals? Crossing (to justify pushing forward)? Etc.

5) I consider (at least) one DLP an absolute must, regardless of formation, tactics, etc. Those things will dictate whether it's a DM/CM and Support/Defense, but somewhere you gotta fit one (or their more elaborate DM counterparts) into your system. 

Edited by XuluBak

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I'd also caution against making too many drastic changes during the course of a season. It seems that tactical familiarity is a lot more important, but slower developing, in FM20, and significant changes can really disrupt your team, even if they are/were dominant. Also, making a bunch of changes and looking at once match isn't gonna tell you much. One or two small changes, play a few matches, then revisit. 

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11 hours ago, Alerion said:

I decided to use a more possession based/dominant tactic

How is it supposed to be "possession-based" with higher tempo and pass into space - coupled with a high (positive) mentality on top of that ??? 

 

11 hours ago, Alerion said:

Schedule.thumb.PNG.b99573ca37df452e070a9e17da506e80.PNG

Honestly, I think your results are pretty good relative to what the tactic looks like.

Anyway, I'll tell you what I think you should change (or at least consider)... 

 

11 hours ago, Alerion said:

1021492305_Tacticsscreen.thumb.PNG.07e21aa8b3fa6fc85adc1e079f5d018a.PNG

On the right flank, a combo of FB attack and IW support is a good and logical one, because it's conducive to the so-called natural overlap :thup:

However, the problem here is your midfield duo. When you have an attacking fullback, it's reasonable to play a holding/covering midfielder on his side. Therefore, your CM on defend duty should be in the MCR position, not MCL. Like this:

             IWsu

   CMde

             FBat

Up front, the AF as a lone striker usually tends to struggle, especially in aggressive and attack-minded systems (like yours). Because the role needs space in which to operate and take advantage of. Therefore, I would change him into PF on attack duty.

And even if you insist on using the very AF role as your only striker, the guy behind him (AMC) should be played on attack duty - SS or AM on attack, depending on the rest of the setup/tactic - so that he would look to attack and exploit the space the AF creates by pushing the opposition back-line. However, this approach also suits more counter-attacking (or fast attacking) than possession or control-oriented tactical styles. 

There are a couple more changes/tweaks I personally would look to make, but let's leave them for later.

 

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vor einer Stunde schrieb Experienced Defender:

How is it supposed to be "possession-based" with higher tempo and pass into space - coupled with a high (positive) mentality on top of that ??? 

 

Honestly, I think your results are pretty good relative to what the tactic looks like.

Anyway, I'll tell you what I think you should change (or at least consider)... 

 

On the right flank, a combo of FB attack and IW support is a good and logical one, because it's conducive to the so-called natural overlap :thup:

However, the problem here is your midfield duo. When you have an attacking fullback, it's reasonable to play a holding/covering midfielder on his side. Therefore, your CM on defend duty should be in the MCR position, not MCL. Like this:

             IWsu

   CMde

             FBat

Up front, the AF as a lone striker usually tends to struggle, especially in aggressive and attack-minded systems (like yours). Because the role needs space in which to operate and take advantage of. Therefore, I would change him into PF on attack duty.

And even if you insist on using the very AF role as your only striker, the guy behind him (AMC) should be played on attack duty - SS or AM on attack, depending on the rest of the setup/tactic - so that he would look to attack and exploit the space the AF creates by pushing the opposition back-line. However, this approach also suits more counter-attacking (or fast attacking) than possession or control-oriented tactical styles. 

There are a couple more changes/tweaks I personally would look to make, but let's leave them for later.

 

First of all, thank you for your comment !

As i already explained, I average a very high possession % in all games, so even do I know that I do not set my team up for tiki-take, it does what I want, on paper. High possession, high shot count. Its just the CCC I am struggling with, even defensively I suppose it is solid for a 4-2-31 (might getting battered in the 1. Bundesliga tho, who knows)

So for now I suppose I need to figure out how to score more goals, the AF - SS partnership sound like something I need to try.

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3 hours ago, Alerion said:

so even do I know that I do not set my team up for tiki-take, it does what I want, on paper

I was not talking about tiki-taka specifically, but possession-based football in general. I personally dislike tiki-taka and never play that way (even if I want to dominate possession) :lol: 

 

3 hours ago, Alerion said:

So for now I suppose I need to figure out how to score more goals, the AF - SS partnership sound like something I need to try

Might be. But only if you adjust the whole tactic to suit that kind of partnership. Otherwise, I fear it's going to fail. Because nothing can work in isolation.

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@Experienced Defender

If I want the AF-SS partnership on my 4231, do you Think it can work on this formation :

        AF

IFsu  SS   Wat

  DLPde BBm

WBat CDde BPDde FBsu

 

For fast attack and counter attack ? 

Thanks

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image.png.25aec24b3ace54b08fd0f3fc186f5837.png

Based on this tactic here's what I would change.

1) I think the roles you have setup are fairly decent but I think the BBM is too attack oriented to be a part of the double pivot in a 4-2-3-1 which has to be more defensive in nature. I'd choose a role which can provide a link between your no. 10 and holding midfielder such as a central midfielder (support) or a ball winning midfielder (support) for e.g. which is more secure defensively and operates more in the central midfield zone. I'd also put the defend duty central midfielder on the same side as the attack duty fullback so he can more easily provide cover when the fullback gets caught high up the pitch and you lose possession.

2) Your strike partnership is your no. 10 (AP) and no. 9 (AF). That makes the use of an IF (A) slightly problematic as he needs a player ahead of him drawing defenders out of position to create space for him to run into the channels which an AF won't provide as he wants to run into those channels himself. Maybe change this role to a winger and the wingback role to a fullback. It may not be the best role for the player but the movement of running wide with the ball will help create space for your central players by drawing the attention of the opposition fullbacks which should help open up the channels for your AF.

3) I would axe using Shorter Passing as I see no reason to restrict the range of passes available to the players. It may result in having lower amounts of possession but having more possession shouldn't be the objective of a tactic. If you are one of the best sides in the division then you are likely to see teams being passive against you and they will be happy to let you have the ball which will result in higher possession anyway. Removing that instruction should mean that your players are more willing to attempt more direct passes to unlock the defense (balls over the top for your AF to chase, cross field passes to switch the emphasis of an attack). 

4) I'd also remove the Pass Into Space for the same reason I gave in 3). Besides, I wouldn't want everyone attempting risky passes. You already have in your tactic a sweeper keeper, ball playing defender, advanced playmaker and inside forward who will all be attempting risky passes. I think that's quite enough as it is.

5) I would get rid of Work Ball Into Box because one of the main reasons to play a 4-2-3-1 is for its wide play and ability to stretch defending teams over the full width of the pitch. Using that instruction in the tactic nullifies one of the major strengths of using the formation. In order to pass your way into the box you need to be coming up against a team which is giving your players space which most likely they won't get against teams of a lower standard who will play on a lower mentality.

6) I also don't see the reason why you would want to attempt to play out of defence given the roles you have chosen and the formation. Ideally, you want to get the ball into your front 4 as quickly as possible. Messing about with the ball in your defence doesn't help that objective and allows the opposition time to recover into their defensive shape. I'd also question why you would want to use a Sweeper Keeper on support with a Ball Playing Defender if you aren't going to want them to attempt long passes from the back. The two ideas kind of contradict each other.

7) Finally, if you haven't already I would encourage the AP to roam from position and get the AML and AMR to swap positions during the game maybe even the two central midfielders also if you want to create a true double pivot at the base of your midfield triangle. That should make the AP more difficult to mark out of the game which is vital for your system. If he can't influence the game because he isn't receiving the ball then you are going to struggle to create in the final third. Making the AML and AMR swap positions is all about disrupting the oppositions defensive rhythm, ideally, you want to have either footed players for those positions to create the most confusion. Maybe even experiment with giving the AP the Get Further Forward PI to get him to offer closer support to your AF.

Good luck

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7 hours ago, Karrincha said:

@Experienced Defender

If I want the AF-SS partnership on my 4231, do you Think it can work on this formation :

        AF

IFsu  SS   Wat

  DLPde BBm

WBat CDde BPDde FBsu

 

For fast attack and counter attack ? 

Thanks

Can work, provided you also set the instructions properly and provided your team is good enough for such a setup.  However, I would change the LB into FB on attack instead of WB (because it's the 4231).

Btw, DLP on defend might not be the best idea for fast-transition styles. I would probably go with CM on defend duty instead.

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vor 23 Stunden schrieb pheelf:

image.png.25aec24b3ace54b08fd0f3fc186f5837.png

Based on this tactic here's what I would change.

1) I think the roles you have setup are fairly decent but I think the BBM is too attack oriented to be a part of the double pivot in a 4-2-3-1 which has to be more defensive in nature. I'd choose a role which can provide a link between your no. 10 and holding midfielder such as a central midfielder (support) or a ball winning midfielder (support) for e.g. which is more secure defensively and operates more in the central midfield zone. I'd also put the defend duty central midfielder on the same side as the attack duty fullback so he can more easily provide cover when the fullback gets caught high up the pitch and you lose possession.

2) Your strike partnership is your no. 10 (AP) and no. 9 (AF). That makes the use of an IF (A) slightly problematic as he needs a player ahead of him drawing defenders out of position to create space for him to run into the channels which an AF won't provide as he wants to run into those channels himself. Maybe change this role to a winger and the wingback role to a fullback. It may not be the best role for the player but the movement of running wide with the ball will help create space for your central players by drawing the attention of the opposition fullbacks which should help open up the channels for your AF.

3) I would axe using Shorter Passing as I see no reason to restrict the range of passes available to the players. It may result in having lower amounts of possession but having more possession shouldn't be the objective of a tactic. If you are one of the best sides in the division then you are likely to see teams being passive against you and they will be happy to let you have the ball which will result in higher possession anyway. Removing that instruction should mean that your players are more willing to attempt more direct passes to unlock the defense (balls over the top for your AF to chase, cross field passes to switch the emphasis of an attack). 

4) I'd also remove the Pass Into Space for the same reason I gave in 3). Besides, I wouldn't want everyone attempting risky passes. You already have in your tactic a sweeper keeper, ball playing defender, advanced playmaker and inside forward who will all be attempting risky passes. I think that's quite enough as it is.

5) I would get rid of Work Ball Into Box because one of the main reasons to play a 4-2-3-1 is for its wide play and ability to stretch defending teams over the full width of the pitch. Using that instruction in the tactic nullifies one of the major strengths of using the formation. In order to pass your way into the box you need to be coming up against a team which is giving your players space which most likely they won't get against teams of a lower standard who will play on a lower mentality.

6) I also don't see the reason why you would want to attempt to play out of defence given the roles you have chosen and the formation. Ideally, you want to get the ball into your front 4 as quickly as possible. Messing about with the ball in your defence doesn't help that objective and allows the opposition time to recover into their defensive shape. I'd also question why you would want to use a Sweeper Keeper on support with a Ball Playing Defender if you aren't going to want them to attempt long passes from the back. The two ideas kind of contradict each other.

7) Finally, if you haven't already I would encourage the AP to roam from position and get the AML and AMR to swap positions during the game maybe even the two central midfielders also if you want to create a true double pivot at the base of your midfield triangle. That should make the AP more difficult to mark out of the game which is vital for your system. If he can't influence the game because he isn't receiving the ball then you are going to struggle to create in the final third. Making the AML and AMR swap positions is all about disrupting the oppositions defensive rhythm, ideally, you want to have either footed players for those positions to create the most confusion. Maybe even experiment with giving the AP the Get Further Forward PI to get him to offer closer support to your AF.

Good luck

Thank you for your input! I took some of your advices and put them to test on my tactics

 

image.thumb.png.4b6e46b3fe18488fbfb365cd25138530.png

Looks good on paper I suppose.

image.thumb.png.9ec55be970c4775cf1ec2141b6b37ef8.png

Next game, again, no CCC. That seems like the 10th game in a row or so where I did not create a clear cut change, that seems mad. Still bossing everything else tho, even won around 20% more headers too.

image.thumb.png.bffb6210e0e05ba72e41b07e136b5c25.png

Well then. I did also swap my wingers ingame.

I dont know, I just think this year just isnt mine. I had massive success and fun the last couple years but it looks like its time to move on. Thank you for your help tho, but I am really at the end with FM20.

 

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43 minutes ago, Alerion said:

Thank you for your input! I took some of your advices and put them to test on my tactics

image.thumb.png.4b6e46b3fe18488fbfb365cd25138530.png

Looks good on paper I suppose.

image.thumb.png.9ec55be970c4775cf1ec2141b6b37ef8.png

Next game, again, no CCC. That seems like the 10th game in a row or so where I did not create a clear cut change, that seems mad. Still bossing everything else tho, even won around 20% more headers too.

image.thumb.png.bffb6210e0e05ba72e41b07e136b5c25.png

Well then. I did also swap my wingers ingame.

I dont know, I just think this year just isnt mine. I had massive success and fun the last couple years but it looks like its time to move on. Thank you for your help tho, but I am really at the end with FM20.

I think the latest tactic you posted is actually a step backwards from what you had before.

The tactic is very demanding on your AMC as you expect him to be your main goalscorer (only player in your front 4 with an attack duty) and also to be your main provider (only playmaker). That might be too much to expect as he can't perform both roles well simultaneously.

What I suggested was based on you changing the AML to a winger (attack) and keeping the ST as an advanced forward (attack). Changing the role of the striker while also putting the AMC on an attack duty completely changes how the team will attack.

I don't see why you added the 'Play for Set Pieces' TI.

I suggested that you try:

                AF(A)

W(A)        AP(S)       IW(S)

          CM(S) CM(D)

FB(S) CD(D) CD(D) FB(A)

                GK(D)

TIs -

Higher Tempo (although this is tentative, if your attacks are too quick they give fewer opportunities for your AMC to get involved, it is something you would need to watch to see if he is contributing)

PIs -

AP - More Roaming and possibly Get Further Forward if you find him too deep during transitions to offer close enough support to the AF

Swap position for AML / AMR and maybe for the MCL / MCR if they are both capable defensively. When I say swap positions I mean have them setup to do it automatically periodically during a game by going into the player instructions and selecting the position from the drop down menu under swap positions.

If you were able to create coherent balanced tactics in previous versions of the game there is no reason why you can't do the same in FM20. The main problem you have is that the tactics you've posted haven't been particularly balanced. Also, I wouldn't underestimate the importance of selecting the right players for the right roles.

For e.g. using a player in the central midfield (defend) role who has conflicting PPMs or has poor defensive attributes isn't going to work well. Even though Brekalo might not be as good as a winger (although he should still be fairly competent) it's important he plays that role in your system. In a system with a False 9 up top for example then maybe an IF(A) would work better but then you would have to change the role of the AMC to account for that.

All the best

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@Experienced Defender Okay, and what would be the best training for a 4231 in possession control?

I'd like my attacking midfielder and my offensive midfielder to be on attacking duty.

Edited by Karrincha

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2 hours ago, Karrincha said:

@Experienced Defender Okay, and what would be the best training for a 4231 in possession control?

First, the setup you posted earlier is not optimal for a control possession style. And you yourself were talking about fast attack or counter-attack style. So I am not sure what you actually want.

Anyway, how can I (or anyone) tell you what would be the "best training"? As far as I remember, there are already pre-set training schedules for each tactical style in the game, so you can select the one that fits your style. 

2 hours ago, Karrincha said:

I'd like my attacking midfielder and my offensive midfielder to be on attacking duty

What do you mean by "offensive" midfielder (as opposed to attacking MF) ???

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