Is the balance of enjoying playing the game gone...?

[Travis Bickle]

3 first team players get injured in training the night before a final, again. 

Whether or not this game is fixed it sure feels like it. 

 

[Rupal]

I can understand why people get frustrated.  The thing that annoys me most is the 35 shots to 1 with 75% possession and you lose 1-0 scenario.  That happens too often.

The glib response which one so often sees, namely that 'Your tactics are wrong' is unhelpful.  If your tactics were so wrong you wouldn't have such an overwhelming superiority in shots, possession, pass completion etc. If you are having all the play and 'battering' your opponent, how are you supposed to work out that you should be playing in a completely different way?  You must be doing SOMETHING right.  Furthermore, tactics shouldn't cause a striker with decent finishing and composure to keep on missing shots at an open goal from six metres out or hitting the post four times in a match or ballooning the ball over the bar when he's practically on the goal line, etc, etc.  Nor should they suddenly endow an opposition midfielder with a long shots rating of 2 the ability to win the game with a rocket from 30 metres with the opposition's only shot on target.  Yes, I know these things can and do happen in the real football world but they are rare.  Very rare.  

It's not the fact that you lose.  It's how the computer PRESENTS your loss that is the issue. 

 

[CFuller]

1 hour ago, Rupal said:

I can understand why people get frustrated.  The thing that annoys me most is the 35 shots to 1 with 75% possession and you lose 1-0 scenario.  That happens too often.

The glib response which one so often sees, namely that 'Your tactics are wrong' is unhelpful.  If your tactics were so wrong you wouldn't have such an overwhelming superiority in shots, possession, pass completion etc. If you are having all the play and 'battering' your opponent, how are you supposed to work out that you should be playing in a completely different way?  You must be doing SOMETHING right.

There's a VERY common misconception that having more possession and shots means you should score more goals.

About two in three Champions League games, and around 55% of Premier League games, are won by the team with the most possession. Go lower down the levels, and you'll find that teams with LESS of the ball tend to win more games. And when it comes to shots, it's quality that counts, not quantity.

It's all well and good hogging the ball and having 30 shots at goal, but if they're all from outside the box and/or from wide angles, then clearly something's wrong. Maybe you're being too aggressive, or your attacks are too predictable, or the other team are frustrating you by sitting deep. If you're Barcelona and they're Leganes, they're not exactly going to roll over and let you score at will. Just some thoughts.

1 hour ago, Rupal said:

Furthermore, tactics shouldn't cause a striker with decent finishing and composure to keep on missing shots at an open goal from six metres out or hitting the post four times in a match or ballooning the ball over the bar when he's practically on the goal line, etc, etc.

Sometimes the best attackers have off-days. Even Ronaldo and Messi have had poor performances and barren runs of form, rare as they have been. As for players missing from "practically on the goal line", I remember Kanu ballooning a shot over the bar from 1-2 yards, and Yakubu missing a sitter at the World Cup. They weren't exactly elite strikers like Ronaldo and Messi, but they were still very capable PL strikers at their peak.

1 hour ago, Rupal said:

Nor should they suddenly endow an opposition midfielder with a long shots rating of 2 the ability to win the game with a rocket from 30 metres with the opposition's only shot on target.  Yes, I know these things can and do happen in the real football world but they are rare.  Very rare.  

On the attribute scale, 2 out of 20 does not mean the player is almost completely incapable of carrying out that skill; as I see it, it just means that they're very poor at it compared to a professional footballer. Even a Sunday League player with next to no technique can whack a long shot into the top corner in the right circumstances.

 

[Svenc]

16 minutes ago, CFuller said:

It's all well and good hogging the ball and having 30 shots at goal, but if they're all from outside the box and/or from wide angles,

Don't forget set pieces… which are rather numerous on FM anyhow. Somehow, this is like going back ten years in time. And whilst this vintage edition didn't allow for highlight uploads to show, wwfan was 100% Right by the way. The video in the first link was a match of Hammer1000s (just one of them, and they were all repeats). In his pursuit of Possession he kept the pitch this compact that the Opposition may have been pinned back, but got a foot into every open Play move. Having more shots and/or Possession in itself is more often than not simply the byproduct of one Team attacking, and the other defending anyhow. Actual managers manage spaces, not simple numbers on a spreadsheet. The AI of this game is doing this in simple ways. It oft lets the opposition have more shots/poss. Admittedly, FM's never had better stats to show such (such as in real Football, xG, post-shot xG, et all).  

Edited February 22, 2020 by Svenc

[CFuller]

12 minutes ago, Svenc said:

Don't forget set pieces… Somehow, this is like going back ten years in time.

Ah, another Gazhammer special from the archives.  But the fact that the user I directly replied to was basically complaining about these same issues 11 years ago (and doesn't appear to have taken any of the counter-arguments on board) is... interesting.

Edited February 22, 2020 by CFuller

[Svenc]

32 minutes ago, CFuller said:

Ah, another Gazhammer special from the archives.  But the fact that the user I directly replied to was basically complaining about these same issues 11 years ago (and doesn't appear to have taken any of the counter-arguments on board) is... interesting.

Yeah, as argued by wwfan back then also, anything that may stretch a packed defense more may bring down the "statistical" Domination a bit (poss+shots), which makes him feel uncomfortable. So he keeps on retreating to such tactics dominating shots/poss (which on FM arguably too often happens often anyway, as the AI so oft simply parks the bus to spoil). His hope is that Mainstream Programmes more recent have introduced statistics at least a tad more valuable, such as aforementioned xG, which FM lacks (and the CCC is by no means a replacement).

In Theory, he should have more Problems with it, as defending Deep has become much more robust in the Overall balance of Things (too robust as some argue?), and direct/Long balls in really vintage Editions were poor.

Edited February 22, 2020 by Svenc

[Cro-cop]

After playing the game for a while again, after taking a break waiting for the patch, i can say that i regret paying for the game this year. The most boring ME in a long time, sponsorships are bugged, regens are still unbalanced (positions and attributes), some other bugs that, i saw, are reported long time ago are still present. And especially when i see the graphics of some older versions (regen faces, stadiums, pitch texture etc), it all feels a bit disappointing because it looked better before.

But, as i once said, the most disappointing thing for me is that the game is full of good features that could make this game incredible, but because of the things i mention i just can enjoy anything about it.

 

Edited February 22, 2020 by Cro-cop

[Rupal]

22 hours ago, CFuller said:

There's a VERY common misconception that having more possession and shots means you should score more goals.

About two in three Champions League games, and around 55% of Premier League games, are won by the team with the most possession. Go lower down the levels, and you'll find that teams with LESS of the ball tend to win more games. And when it comes to shots, it's quality that counts, not quantity.

It's all well and good hogging the ball and having 30 shots at goal, but if they're all from outside the box and/or from wide angles, then clearly something's wrong. Maybe you're being too aggressive, or your attacks are too predictable, or the other team are frustrating you by sitting deep. If you're Barcelona and they're Leganes, they're not exactly going to roll over and let you score at will. Just some thoughts.

Sometimes the best attackers have off-days. Even Ronaldo and Messi have had poor performances and barren runs of form, rare as they have been. As for players missing from "practically on the goal line", I remember Kanu ballooning a shot over the bar from 1-2 yards, and Yakubu missing a sitter at the World Cup. They weren't exactly elite strikers like Ronaldo and Messi, but they were still very capable PL strikers at their peak.

On the attribute scale, 2 out of 20 does not mean the player is almost completely incapable of carrying out that skill; as I see it, it just means that they're very poor at it compared to a professional footballer. Even a Sunday League player with next to no technique can whack a long shot into the top corner in the right circumstances.

 

If you notice, I didn't say that precisely. The point which I am making is that reasonably decent strikers miss from six yards out or keep on hitting the post or the bar, or balloon it over when they are on the goal line in these types of matches.  I am not saying that the team with more possession should score more goals at all.  Indeed, as I've said in another thread, I have been trying to create a counter attacking style myself which would obviously have lower possession.  However, if you are having more possession than the opposition and you are getting a load of goal scoring opportunities but missing SIMPLE chances. that shows a problem with the game presentation, not with your tactics, I would suggest if it happens relatively frequently, which it seems to do.  It's too glib just to say 'It's your tactics'.  Your tactics should not suddenly repeatedly prevent a decent striker from hitting the back of the net from six yards in front of an open goal!  The point is that they AREN'T 'all from outside the box and/or from wide angles'.  They are from bang in front and close in!

If a lousy long shots player can score the occasional screamer from 30 yards that's no problem.  But you'd say that someone with a rating of 15 ought to score more of them.  Otherwise the rating makes no sense.  In a similar way, if a striker has a finishing rating and a composure rating of 16 he ought to be able to score from six yards in front of an open goal far more often than he misses. You certainly wouldn't expect him to miss a load of open goals one after the other if the rating is accurate, would you?

Of course the best strikers have off days. And the best strikers will miss sitters.  But they won't do so on a regular basis. Otherwise, they aren't top strikers.  As I said in my post, it's not the fact that one's strikers have an off day and one loses which is the issue.  It's the NUMBER of EASY chances which are repeatedly missed in these games, the NUMBER of times the woodwork is hit and so on!

Edited February 23, 2020 by Rupal

[Tyburn]

1 hour ago, Rupal said:

If you notice, I didn't say that precisely. The point which I am making is that reasonably decent strikers miss from six yards out or keep on hitting the post or the bar, or balloon it over when they are on the goal line in these types of matches.  I am not saying that the team with more possession should score more goals at all.  Indeed, as I've said in another thread, I have been trying to create a counter attacking style myself which would obviously have lower possession.  However, if you are having more possession than the opposition and you are getting a load of goal scoring opportunities but missing SIMPLE chances. that shows a problem with the game presentation, not with your tactics, I would suggest if it happens relatively frequently, which it seems to do.  It's too glib just to say 'It's your tactics'.  Your tactics should not suddenly prevent a decent striker from hitting the back of the net from six yards in front of an open goal!  The point is that they AREN'T 'all from outside the box and/or from wide angles'.  They are from bang in front and close in!

If a lousy long shots player can score the occasional screamer from 30 yards that's no problem.  But you'd say that someone with a rating of 15 ought to score more of them.  Otherwise the rating makes no sense.  In a similar way, if a striker has a finishing rating and a composure rating of 16 he ought to be able to score from six yards in front of an open goal far more often than he misses. You certainly wouldn't expect him to miss a load of open goals one after the other if the rating is accurate, would you?

Of course the best strikers have off days. And the best strikers will miss sitters.  But they won't do so on a regular basis. Otherwise, they aren't top strikers.  As I said in my post, it's not the fact that one's strikers have an off day and one loses which is the issue.  It's the NUMBER of EASY chances which are repeatedly missed in these games, the NUMBER of times the woodwork is hit and so on!

The ME is wonky. It’s not glib to say it’s your tactics. It IS your tactics. My tactic doesn’t make the ME act in the way you’re seeing. Not anymore anyway.

Of course it doesn’t make sense. When has FM ever in fairness.

What you see and what the ME is actually doing, I’ve personally found, are often very different things. All those 1v1’s being missed? They’re not as good a chance as you think. Yes they Look good to us, but I think the ME processes it differently. 

Of course this isn’t good, the ME is not good for many people, but tactics play a big part in how the ME presents itself to us. Otherwise why would some of us see set piece and cross simulator when others would not?

Infuriating yes. Not ideal yes. But tactics make a difference. And it’s probably only a few small tweaks.

[Rupal]

35 minutes ago, Tyburn said:

The ME is wonky. It’s not glib to say it’s your tactics. It IS your tactics. My tactic doesn’t make the ME act in the way you’re seeing. Not anymore anyway.

Of course it doesn’t make sense. When has FM ever in fairness.

What you see and what the ME is actually doing, I’ve personally found, are often very different things. All those 1v1’s being missed? They’re not as good a chance as you think. Yes they Look good to us, but I think the ME processes it differently. 

Of course this isn’t good, the ME is not good for many people, but tactics play a big part in how the ME presents itself to us. Otherwise why would some of us see set piece and cross simulator when others would not?

Infuriating yes. Not ideal yes. But tactics make a difference. And it’s probably only a few small tweaks.

No it is very far from simply being your tactics.  If you find that a reasonable striker misses a bucket load of easy chances and you sub him and his replacement does exactly the same (and it most definitely happens) then that has pretty well eliminated the 'off form' explanation so we can put that one to bed.

If close range in front of an open goal isn't 'as good a chance as you think' then exactly what would count as a 'good chance' at all?  The fact is that the misses in these '30 shots to 1' scenarios are often apparently of that sort.  Now if they are APPEARING to be dead easy but in fact aren't then that shows that the ME is cockeyed NOT that your tactics are cockeyed.  How is a player expected to work out from what he or she sees on the pitch what is wrong with the tactics being employed when the apparent information available is so out of kilter with what the ME does?

Of course, you can be wise after the event and tweak as much as you like.  You can rerun the game with those tweaks if you like.  But that's no substitute for being given information which isn't misleading so that you can identify what's going wrong and try to put it right in the first place.  It's not the LOSS.  It's how it's presented which is the point.  The situation over in-match tweaks is rather like firing a gun in a pitch black room if you say that what you see isn't what's actually happening. You may occasionally hit something but that's by luck, not judgement!

Edit: to clarify. I want to be able to look at a match (and I often look at the full matches, not highlights) and (for example) be able to see from the play that my wingbacks are not getting far enough forward so their crosses are ineffective and thus I need to alter that.  I DON'T want the ME to show a load of crosses apparently going in dangerously and my striker constantly heading them over or hitting the post, which is how it seems the ME represents it.

Edited February 23, 2020 by Rupal

[Tyburn]

Off form has nothing to do with it. It’s your tactic.

Your tactic is cockeyed, which is why the ME is showing you this in the most glaringly obvious way possible. I’ll say it again, the ME is wonky. Of course it is. Either accept it or keep banging your head against a wall. You CAN mitigate what you see.

Yes. The way it’s presented doesn’t make much sense. But the ME IS showing you something is wrong. And football does require some luck. Man City this season for example. Battering everyone in every stat but not getting results. Why? Luck? Not having enough CB’s? Teams working out how to soak up the pressure? If Pep knew the answer they wouldn’t be where they are with the season they’re having.

The ME just doesn’t show me these issues to the extent that others see them anymore. Why is that? Seriously. How can that be!?

[Rupal]

3 hours ago, Tyburn said:

Off form has nothing to do with it. It’s your tactic.

Your tactic is cockeyed, which is why the ME is showing you this in the most glaringly obvious way possible. I’ll say it again, the ME is wonky. Of course it is. Either accept it or keep banging your head against a wall. You CAN mitigate what you see.

Yes. The way it’s presented doesn’t make much sense. But the ME IS showing you something is wrong. And football does require some luck. Man City this season for example. Battering everyone in every stat but not getting results. Why? Luck? Not having enough CB’s? Teams working out how to soak up the pressure? If Pep knew the answer they wouldn’t be where they are with the season they’re having.

The ME just doesn’t show me these issues to the extent that others see them anymore. Why is that? Seriously. How can that be!?

The off form point was being made in other posts.  I was not suggesting anything other than eliminating it from the discussion.

See my edit on my last post.  That makes the position clear enough.

Edit: What I don't want is to have to GUESS what the problem is because the ME doesn't give me the chance to work it out from what I can SEE.  Nor should it have to be a matter of trial and error.  It ought to be possible to analyse what's going wrong from what happens on the virtual pitch.

As for 'just accept it' that's not a remotely tolerable attitude.  SI sell a product.  They ought to get it to work properly if they're taking money for it.  And one of the few things we can do about it is to point out the shortcomings in the hope that they will improve things.  Just saying that it's been like this for ages doesn't help!

Edited February 23, 2020 by Rupal

[Tyburn]

17 minutes ago, Rupal said:

The off form point was being made in other posts.  I was not suggesting anything other than eliminating it from the discussion.

See my edit on my last post.  That makes the position clear enough.

As for 'just accept it' that's not a remotely tolerable attitude.  SI sell a product.  They ought to get it to work properly if they're taking money for it.  And one of the few things we can do about it is to point out the shortcomings in the hope that they will improve things.  Just saying that it's been like this for ages doesn't help!

But it does work. Just not in a way that works for you.

Thanks for the discussion. Think we need to agree to disagree here.

[JEinchy]

The fundamental issue with mitigating the ME's quirks is that it's not intuitive. When you see a striker consistently miss good chances by real life standards, the user's first thought is going to be "he should score, but at least my tactics are creating these chances" and not "well, I guess the ME doesn't consider this a good chance, therefore my player didn't score, and I need to adjust my approach".

This is an inherent issue that comes with replicating a real life sport. We instinctively try to apply real-life solutions we consider to be logical rather than think of a way of to beat the game. If you approach FM as a game and see these problems as simple challenges to overcome, then naturally you will find solutions, but many of these solutions go against our expectations for what is intended to be a simulation of real life football. Hence, players grow frustrated. The most intuitive response to a problem is often the one that doesn't work.

I don't think FM, as a game and a simulation, is intended to be played with the mindset of "how can I exploit/mitigate this issue". Nor do I think this should be the optimal approach to the game. Ideally, the game should account for as many approaches as possible, and allow the player to succeed and fail according to their skill. I did a six season save with Sevilla, won three league titles, two CLs, went 60 games unbeaten, etc. but not once did I feel like I was a skilled player of the game. Rather, I just felt like I knew how to "play" the game and that's not very fulfilling.

Edited February 23, 2020 by JEinchy

[Rupal]

Oh I'm not suggesting that it's easy at all.  But I think the ME should do a better job than it does. It's all very well saying it works for you.  It ought to work - period and it doesn't work well enough for a lot of people if the grumbles are anything to judge by!

Having said that, I'm enjoying the game thoroughly at the moment.  Have gone back to the 1950s/60s/early 70s and am employing an attacking 4-2-4 with emphasis on wingers. Only done pre-season thus far but am seeing my strikers hitting the back of the net with monotonous regularity!  Of course, this tactic leaks goals as well, but the approach of 'If they score 2 we'll score 3' seems to be working fine and we've hit 6 on three occasions already. I like old-fashioned goals coming from a winger belting to the by-line, crossing the ball to a big man in the middle and seeing him blast it into the net. Not exactly subtle but who cares?  Exciting games with results like 6-2 or 4-3 seem to be the norm! 

Edit:  As I said - high scoring is the norm.  Latest match 6-4 to us!! Four to my target man! 

Edited February 24, 2020 by Rupal

[Tyburn]

32 minutes ago, JEinchy said:

The fundamental issue with mitigating the ME's quirks is that it's not intuitive. When you see a striker consistently miss good chances by real life standards, the user's first thought is going to be "he should score, but at least my tactics are creating these chances" and not "well, I guess the ME doesn't consider this a good chance, therefore my player didn't score, and I need to adjust my approach".

This is an inherent issue that comes with replicating a real life sport. We instinctively try to apply real-life solutions we consider to be logical rather than think of a way of to beat the game. If you approach FM as a game and see these problems as simple challenges to overcome, then naturally you will find solutions, but many of these solutions go against our expectations for what is intended to be a simulation of real life football. Hence, players grow frustrated. The most intuitive response to a problem is often the one that doesn't work.

I don't think FM, as a game and a simulation, is intended to be played with the mindset of "how can I exploit/mitigate this issue". Nor do I think this should be the optimal approach to the game. Ideally, the game should account for as many approaches as possible, and allow the player to succeed and fail according to their skill. I did a six season save with Sevilla, won three league titles, two CLs, went 60 games unbeaten, etc. but not once did I feel like I was a skilled player of the game. Rather, I just felt like I knew how to "play" the game and that's not very fulfilling.

Good points. The main one being it’s a game, and all games have quirks.

What do you want from the game? Not knowing what you’re doing and learning? I’d find that rewarding. Kicking ass after putting that knowledge into practise? I’d find that rewarding too, to a point. Then yeah, it becomes boring.

The great thing about FM are all the choices we can make, and put on ourselves. Taking a non contender to greatness. Dominating with one tactical approach but then changing it to give yourself a challenge. There are many ways to make it fulfilling.

Working out the ME doesn’t like my approach, so spending 6 seasons tweaking, changing, adapting. It’s been very rewarding.

In previous versions I’ve built a tactic and in the first season I’ve won the league with Burnley. Not this year. Now morale, cohesion AND a solid (not exploit) tactic all matter. Which is great.

It is possible to get the ME looking like an actual game of football but my god does it require a lot of patience, and yes, a little bit of luck.

 

[Rupal]

2 minutes ago, Tyburn said:

Good points. The main one being it’s a game, and all games have quirks.

What do you want from the game? Not knowing what you’re doing and learning? I’d find that rewarding. Kicking ass after putting that knowledge into practise? I’d find that rewarding too, to a point. Then yeah, it becomes boring.

The great thing about FM are all the choices we can make, and put on ourselves. Taking a non contender to greatness. Dominating with one tactical approach but then changing it to give yourself a challenge. There are many ways to make it fulfilling.

Working out the ME doesn’t like my approach, so spending 6 seasons tweaking, changing, adapting. It’s been very rewarding.

In previous versions I’ve built a tactic and in the first season I’ve won the league with Burnley. Not this year. Now morale, cohesion AND a solid (not exploit) tactic all matter. Which is great.

It is possible to get the ME looking like an actual game of football but my god does it require a lot of patience, and yes, a little bit of luck.

 

Yep, that's true enough.  I shall continue with my step backwards in time (as I outlined in my last post).  It will be interesting to see how it works in a full season!

[FMSD0]

Just because a game has been in a not-so-acceptable(-hey-but-it’s-working!) state for a long time doesn’t mean that the consumer simply has to accept this. It’s a consumer’s right to either inform the product’s developer or contact a consumer advice centre in order to get help or her / his money back in case the organisation isn’t willing to improve a product that isn’t working as intended or described.

What’s the point of a forum if dedicated users have to tilt against same-old windmills? If no constructive or unpleasant opinions are desired, then it’s best to be clear about this or to remove the whole online presence since there’s no need for a circus of a one-sided echo chamber. Football Manager would sell anyway.

I’m pretty sure that most users just want this game to improve, but mostly they only get confronted with ignorance and obscure, repetitive answers in a "just deal with it" fashion. With the way things are working currently it won’t get no one anywhere. But maybe that’s exactly the intention of a forum’s existence? Well played then.

My suggestion: Be more sensible and open-minded towards committed and new users. There’s no downside to this and you could heavily profit from your consumer’s views. Try to find common solutions and appreciate other people’s efforts.

Football is evolving fast. But also the video game industry is evolving pretty fast, therefore it’s not a good idea to conserve the state of a video game, just because it’s working.

Spoiler

I really hope I won’t get banned for expressing this …

 

Edited March 4, 2020 by FMSD0

[jdubsnz]

On 19/02/2020 at 00:59, glenjamin said:

I've been playing manager games since Championship Manager 4. I dread to think the amount of hours I've given to this game over the years, as well as the hundreds of euro I've spent on it year after year. For me it was worth it. I've never found another game which has given me so much enjoyment over the years to the extent I'd be sitting in my car on the way home from work thinking of what players to buy, or sitting with a piece of paper in work thinking of what squad I'll play should I make the cup final.

I've really found my enjoyment in the last two installments of the game to have been the lowest.

I absolutely love all the little new features that are implemented year after year. All the behind the scenes stuff associated with being a football manager. Take this year for example. When you're announced as the manager the little shot of the boardroom in the background and the picture of you holding the scarf of the club/international side you've just been given the job of. Love it! I love contract negotiations with players agents, players coming to me with their issues, drawing up shortlists and trying to figure out how I can buy with my budget, managing underage international sides and convincing a player to play for my country, arranging the training schedule, and so much more. Every year I've bought this game. And every year I've only ever managed one side - my boyhood club Middlesbrough. 

But now with the match engine being so sophisticated and detailed, bugs and errors are so prevalent it has absolutely sucked the joy out of the game for me. I've never been a master tactical. It just seems now that if you want to be somewhat successful in the game you need to find a tactic that 'beats the game'. I always had a thing for playing 3 at the back with wing backs for years. But it feels like the game is inadvertently designed to cater for certain tactics and everything else doesn't work. Last year 442 was the tactic that most people found to work. It shouldn't be like that. When people find the AMC role becomes useless and are unable to build their team around the AMC role then there's something wrong. When someone wants to play a quick central based passing game but the game won't allow them, something wrong. 

I'm all for new features and improvements. But please keep the match engine simple. It doesn't mean the game should be made easy. But you shouldn't need to be a master tactical to get to enjoy the game. 

 

Finding this thread really interesting, and completely agree with @glenjamin I’ve played this game for years but the last 2 iterations I have struggled. I find myself a bit stuck in the middle between creating your own tactics and having to download something. I get so frustrated when building my own tactics (and I’ll spend hours reading articles, etc) and I’ll get a a set of tactics (home, away, SUS) that works for a few games and then it all turns to custard for no real reason. The need to re-invent constantly detracts from, for me, what I enjoy I.e. squad management, in game tactical shifts from a reliable set of tactics, transfer market, contract negotiations, etc.  So after a few seasons of frustration at not being able to get any consistency going, I go and download a few tactics, have a massive unbeaten run, win everything and then think meh, what’s the point? I really want to find a solution as I do love this game. Oddly I always seem to have a good run on the initial beta, but after the next couple of versions come out my tactics fail!

 

[Rupal]

It is difficult.  As I said in a post above, I'm doing reasonably well initially with a 4-2-4 attacking tactic which I started largely out of frustration with my attempts to make a 5-1-2-2 DM WB counter attacking tactic work.  I followed hints and suggestions by Experienced Defender in order to get somewhere with this latter tactic, spent hours tinkering and tried all sorts of things.  The plain fact was that it simply wasn't on.  And frequently the failure manifested itself by the very scenario that I've been moaning about. Loads of possession (very odd for a counter attacking tactic trying to draw the opposition forward) and simple chances being missed and woodwork hitting galore!  If I tried logical adjustments like lowering the defensive line and LOE or other tweaks, the matches often went to the opposite extreme, camping miserably in my own half, having no shots at all to speak of and eventually losing to a 35 yard screamer late on!  Eventually, I have reluctantly been drawn to the conclusion that you can't play this way successfully with this particular version of the game, certainly not in the Lower Leagues.  In a way it's logical, I suppose.  With less than brilliant strikers, scoring from fewer chances is less likely to be successful.  Although the goalies and defenders are worse, so that ought to even things up.  But it doesn't seem to work that way.  

I suppose you have to decide to play in the way which works with the current ME rather than trying to play in a 'realistic' style for the club you're managing!  Or you keep battering your head against a brick wall.

Edit:  Not that I'm complaining about this enforced change in the slightest.  Have just completed a very successful pre-season with only one loss (4-2 to Birmingham City, which, considering that Bradford Park Avenue are in the Vanarama North isn't too bad really) which culminated in a memorable 3-1 victory over Bradford City. It just seems that the game LIKES attacking football!!

Edited February 23, 2020 by Rupal

[f.zaarour]

17 hours ago, JEinchy said:

I did a six season save with Sevilla, won three league titles, two CLs, went 60 games unbeaten, etc. but not once did I feel like I was a skilled player of the game. Rather, I just felt like I knew how to "play" the game and that's not very fulfilling.

Nice, can i ask you what kind of tips could you give me, to get a working tactic side. Not in detail, but where could i have more chance to be succesfull with a team.
Like is high pressing a key in this years FM ME or is a formation setting important or stay back with regroup and low DF etc and focus on counter more often etc...? 

[f.zaarour]

14 hours ago, jdubsnz said:

...I’ve played this game for years but the last 2 iterations I have struggled. I find myself a bit stuck in the middle between creating your own tactics and having to download something. I get so frustrated when building my own tactics (and I’ll spend hours reading articles, etc) and I’ll get a a set of tactics (home, away, SUS) that works for a few games and then it all turns to custard for no real reason. The need to re-invent constantly detracts from, for me, what I enjoy I.e. squad management, in game tactical shifts from a reliable set of tactics, transfer market, contract negotiations, etc. 

 

Im having the same issue atm. This is what i like too about FM, squad management and stuff. In between i just want to have a working tactic which gives me those results i need.
But atm its not going great at all, as also im kinda cant understand this ME, how to beat the opponent in a easy way, espec. away games brings me frustration.
Then i go back to getting info here on the forum and some articles etc. and back to trying again. I started different saves and still nothing had given me the satisfaction yet. 
Still finding the balance of enjoying the game. Hopefully. 

[JEinchy]

3 hours ago, f.zaarour said:

Nice, can i ask you what kind of tips could you give me, to get a working tactic side. Not in detail, but where could i have more chance to be succesfull with a team.
Like is high pressing a key in this years FM ME or is a formation setting important or stay back with regroup and low DF etc and focus on counter more often etc...? 

Since FM19, defending has improved. Teams now retreat into a deep, narrow block very quickly and this has all kinds of consequences for your attacks, such as the ball going wide a lot, crosses being favoured over through passes, and long shots. If you happen to see a lot of long-shot/set-piece goals, this is usually the reason why. While there is real-life logic to this (deep blocks are hard to penetrate from the front, most teams spread them and enter through the sides, there's space in front for long shots, etc.), in FM it can be exaggerated because attacking play is a little limited.

The key now is transitions. Hitting teams when their attacks have broken down, or when they've been lured up the pitch and dispossessed in midfield, is the quickest way to get past these deep blocks, in my experience. Pass Into Space and Hit Early Crosses encourages higher risk passing that can catch teams out before they've had a chance to retreat back into shape. The trade-off for this is that if the passing isn't right or the opposition are dealing with it quite easily, the ball is going to come straight back. In those cases, I swap out Hit Early Crosses for Work Ball Into Box so my build-up play becomes more considered. In some cases, I may be aggressive and direct early on just to get a goal, and then switch to more a deliberate style of play when the AI shows signs of being more attacking. 

Extreme pressing is en vogue again after the recent patches, but it's not necessary imo. I played most of my matches with a High DL, either Standard/High LoE depending on the formation (I avoid high lines of engagement for top heavy formations such as 442 or 4231), and either More Urgent pressing or standard pressing with PIs for certain players. The important thing is to not be passive. I never drop the DL to lower than standard because it means we'll defend the edge of the penalty area and basically get pounded by shots. Even if I'm looking for counter attacks, I play on standard or with a high defensive live so we can win the ball in midfield and start our counters closer to the forwards. I had a 3-5-2 I used in the CL that was based on this and it worked pretty well, although the football wasn't pretty. 

Basically, I find that with this FM, it's harder to stick with one approach because the AI is more willing to change. If you've ever found yourself suddenly under pressure in a game, it's because the AI has changed to a more aggressive style (higher mentality, more pressing, more attacking roles). So if you, like a lot of players do, are playing high pressing, counter-press, etc. you'll see your teams pulled out of shape a lot. This is where regroup, lower line of engagement, etc. can help. I feel like people sleep on the regroup instruction but I've found it's a useful way of solidifying a defence while also drawing teams out.

tl;dr version - Hitting teams fast and hard seems more effective than patient possession play in unlocking teams, and you may need to change your defensive instructions depending on how the game is going.

[Tyburn]

43 minutes ago, JEinchy said:

Since FM19, defending has improved. Teams now retreat into a deep, narrow block very quickly and this has all kinds of consequences for your attacks, such as the ball going wide a lot, crosses being favoured over through passes, and long shots. If you happen to see a lot of long-shot/set-piece goals, this is usually the reason why. While there is real-life logic to this (deep blocks are hard to penetrate from the front, most teams spread them and enter through the sides, there's space in front for long shots, etc.), in FM it can be exaggerated because attacking play is a little limited.

The key now is transitions. Hitting teams when their attacks have broken down, or when they've been lured up the pitch and dispossessed in midfield, is the quickest way to get past these deep blocks, in my experience. Pass Into Space and Hit Early Crosses encourages higher risk passing that can catch teams out before they've had a chance to retreat back into shape. The trade-off for this is that if the passing isn't right or the opposition are dealing with it quite easily, the ball is going to come straight back. In those cases, I swap out Hit Early Crosses for Work Ball Into Box so my build-up play becomes more considered. In some cases, I may be aggressive and direct early on just to get a goal, and then switch to more a deliberate style of play when the AI shows signs of being more attacking. 

Extreme pressing is en vogue again after the recent patches, but it's not necessary imo. I played most of my matches with a High DL, either Standard/High LoE depending on the formation (I avoid high lines of engagement for top heavy formations such as 442 or 4231), and either More Urgent pressing or standard pressing with PIs for certain players. The important thing is to not be passive. I never drop the DL to lower than standard because it means we'll defend the edge of the penalty area and basically get pounded by shots. Even if I'm looking for counter attacks, I play on standard or with a high defensive live so we can win the ball in midfield and start our counters closer to the forwards. I had a 3-5-2 I used in the CL that was based on this and it worked pretty well, although the football wasn't pretty. 

Basically, I find that with this FM, it's harder to stick with one approach because the AI is more willing to change. If you've ever found yourself suddenly under pressure in a game, it's because the AI has changed to a more aggressive style (higher mentality, more pressing, more attacking roles). So if you, like a lot of players do, are playing high pressing, counter-press, etc. you'll see your teams pulled out of shape a lot. This is where regroup, lower line of engagement, etc. can help. I feel like people sleep on the regroup instruction but I've found it's a useful way of solidifying a defence while also drawing teams out.

tl;dr version - Hitting teams fast and hard seems more effective than patient possession play in unlocking teams, and you may need to change your defensive instructions depending on how the game is going.

Good post.

This is exactly how I’ve been playing recently. Which is why I’m not seeing half of the “issues” most see from the ME. Although I’m using a 4123 formation. Playing on either cautious or positive mainly (depending on opposition/situation). I play standard def line with lower line of engagement (I want to create space behind the oppositions back line). When they are in those lines however I do press like a madman.

I’ve found the football I’m seeing resembles real football well, it’s balanced, and at times it’s rather exciting even. Hitting on the break always looks good and this philosophy you’ve highlighted does this well. I’ve found I give up a bit of possession because of it but who cares. Goals win games and the goals I score with this idea, hitting quickly on the break look great. Work ball into box I’ve found mitigates the slight dip in possession and it also gives my team a more patient approach where through balls can happen if the opposition do get a chance to regroup.

 

Edited February 24, 2020 by Tyburn
More tactical info

[f.zaarour]

14 hours ago, JEinchy said:

Since FM19, defending has improved. Teams now retreat into a deep, narrow block very quickly and this has all kinds of consequences for your attacks, such as the ball going wide a lot, crosses being favoured over through passes, and long shots. If you happen to see a lot of long-shot/set-piece goals, this is usually the reason why. While there is real-life logic to this (deep blocks are hard to penetrate from the front, most teams spread them and enter through the sides, there's space in front for long shots, etc.), in FM it can be exaggerated because attacking play is a little limited.

The key now is transitions. Hitting teams when their attacks have broken down, or when they've been lured up the pitch and dispossessed in midfield, is the quickest way to get past these deep blocks, in my experience. Pass Into Space and Hit Early Crosses encourages higher risk passing that can catch teams out before they've had a chance to retreat back into shape. The trade-off for this is that if the passing isn't right or the opposition are dealing with it quite easily, the ball is going to come straight back. In those cases, I swap out Hit Early Crosses for Work Ball Into Box so my build-up play becomes more considered. In some cases, I may be aggressive and direct early on just to get a goal, and then switch to more a deliberate style of play when the AI shows signs of being more attacking. 

Extreme pressing is en vogue again after the recent patches, but it's not necessary imo. I played most of my matches with a High DL, either Standard/High LoE depending on the formation (I avoid high lines of engagement for top heavy formations such as 442 or 4231), and either More Urgent pressing or standard pressing with PIs for certain players. The important thing is to not be passive. I never drop the DL to lower than standard because it means we'll defend the edge of the penalty area and basically get pounded by shots. Even if I'm looking for counter attacks, I play on standard or with a high defensive live so we can win the ball in midfield and start our counters closer to the forwards. I had a 3-5-2 I used in the CL that was based on this and it worked pretty well, although the football wasn't pretty. 

Basically, I find that with this FM, it's harder to stick with one approach because the AI is more willing to change. If you've ever found yourself suddenly under pressure in a game, it's because the AI has changed to a more aggressive style (higher mentality, more pressing, more attacking roles). So if you, like a lot of players do, are playing high pressing, counter-press, etc. you'll see your teams pulled out of shape a lot. This is where regroup, lower line of engagement, etc. can help. I feel like people sleep on the regroup instruction but I've found it's a useful way of solidifying a defence while also drawing teams out.

tl;dr version - Hitting teams fast and hard seems more effective than patient possession play in unlocking teams, and you may need to change your defensive instructions depending on how the game is going.

Thanks a lot for this very usefull tips. I'll for sure take this into my mind in my next games (saves). I see its about changing the mindset of our own on how to play this game in its best way.
Where we want to push our own kind of play threw the game to make it work, we kinda need to play on a way where we can be effective. Or just to know that its not like the older FM's anymore. 

Im curious on how i can set this up in my tactic. And somewhere i kinda noticed this a little bit but i couldn't make it work or even know where to start. Also about the transitions,
its like they've made Liverpool's real life play (with Mister Klopp) the foundation (of succes) in this year's FM. 

And about the transitions, i'd like to give you an example and ask you if this is a good set up, to have enough transition power in the tactic and also to be more active in the play: 

I mostly stick with 4123 (but maybe could go with 4231 as i heard its a better formation in this year's FM). And i was thinking to go on a attacking mentality, with having my LoE on low and DF on standard
(thought about low as well, untill i saw your tips on this). And play with regroup and counter ticked on. Which makes the opponent come out and attack them on the counter right.
I also want to use a split block for the 3 upfront. And if I counter, to do that together with direct short passing.

And about other TI's or roles of players i'll have to check what is best. Is this something anyway which will give you good transition and being solid in attacking? And what about the attacking mentality or
what would you use or change if you play away games (and against stronger teams)...? Any help on this would be welcome. Thanks a lot. 

I was trying to play poss. many times, had a lot of poss. % many times, many shots on goal and nice play but it was hard to create real chances or even get those goals. Maybe i should give in and try something else for sure. 

[craigcwwe]

1 hour ago, f.zaarour said:

Thanks a lot for this very usefull tips. I'll for sure take this into my mind in my next games (saves). I see its about changing the mindset of our own on how to play this game in its best way.
Where we want to push our own kind of play threw the game to make it work, we kinda need to play on a way where we can be effective. Or just to know that its not like the older FM's anymore. 

Im curious on how i can set this up in my tactic. And somewhere i kinda noticed this a little bit but i couldn't make it work or even know where to start. Also about the transitions,
its like they've made Liverpool's real life play (with Mister Klopp) the foundation (of succes) in this year's FM. 

And about the transitions, i'd like to give you an example and ask you if this is a good set up, to have enough transition power in the tactic and also to be more active in the play: 

I mostly stick with 4123 (but maybe could go with 4231 as i heard its a better formation in this year's FM). And i was thinking to go on a attacking mentality, with having my LoE on low and DF on standard
(thought about low as well, untill i saw your tips on this). And play with regroup and counter ticked on. Which makes the opponent come out and attack them on the counter right.
I also want to use a split block for the 3 upfront. And if I counter, to do that together with direct short passing.

And about other TI's or roles of players i'll have to check what is best. Is this something anyway which will give you good transition and being solid in attacking? And what about the attacking mentality or
what would you use or change if you play away games (and against stronger teams)...? Any help on this would be welcome. Thanks a lot. 

I was trying to play poss. many times, had a lot of poss. % many times, many shots on goal and nice play but it was hard to create real chances or even get those goals. Maybe i should give in and try something else for sure. 

You're better off starting a thread over there:

https://community.sigames.com/forum/19-tactics-training-strategies-discussion/

[f.zaarour]

51 minutes ago, craigcwwe said:

You're better off starting a thread over there:

https://community.sigames.com/forum/19-tactics-training-strategies-discussion/

True, i didn't want to go in detail and keep it general. That's why i asked about what are the keys in this year's FM in general. The response was a nice insight for me so i couldn't let it go to go a bit more in detail afterwards hehe. 
It's just to know if this good be the right way to go to refind my joy back in this game. To understand the gameplay better and be more effective to enjoy the game again, as i feel it's what is missing for me atm. 

But i think i don't need to start a new thread there as i won't go further in detail after this and anyway i might get so many different answers there that i wouldn't know where to go or what to follow anyway. 
Thank you for your understanding. 

[craigcwwe]

2 minutes ago, f.zaarour said:

True, i didn't want to go in detail and keep it general. That's why i asked about what are the keys in this year's FM in general. The response was a nice insight for me so i couldn't let it go to go a bit more in detail afterwards hehe. 
It's just to know if this good be the right way to go to refind my joy back in this game. To understand the gameplay better and be more effective to enjoy the game again, as i feel it's what is missing for me atm. 

But i think i don't need to start a new thread there as i won't go further in detail after this and anyway i might get so many different answers there that i wouldn't know where to go or what to follow anyway. 
Thank you for your understanding. 

Alright fella, no worries. Just if you wanted perhaps more attention to your post that putting it in that sub forum would get it seen by more people and get some good feedback on it etc.

[Maldini's Heir]

I've bailed on this game but I still use FM as a database with which to play FIFA (I'd prefer to play PES but can't seem to find where to buy it).

Basically FM generates everything from fixtures to injuries to transfers to opposition teams and results, and I play the games through FIFA and bring it all together on an Excel spreadsheet. It sounds like a lot of work but I get to play about two games per hour and that's my session done before I go to bed. It's satisfying and I also get a level of depth from the game. 

Because I have to update opposition teams I am across all of the transfers in the game. When I have to create a youth team player for FIFA I have to go through each of their attributes and bring them to life. Anyway, horses for courses and all that.

The reason I am still commenting here is because something occurred to me. FM is far too convoluted when it comes to the tactical side of the game (which is actually the key part for a management simulation game). In some areas it's too limited and in other areas it's too repetitive/contradictory.

For example, I cannot tell my team to take short free kicks when deep. I do tell my team to do that but the game is not set up for it. Tactically I don't want to lose my shape for the sake of a deep free kick that'll I pump long with very little chance of scoring. Instead I'd prefer to take a quick free kick but the game just can't handle it.  As you get into the other team's half the players just awkwardly stand around in the wrong positions so that when a short free kick is taken the players end up out of position anyway. It's not what I wanted to do and it looks rubbish.

Meanwhile there are all these different, competing instructions for each thing. For example, there about 6 different ways to tell a player to close down:

• as a team instruction (which also includes the option of not closing down the GK);
• as a player instruction;
• as position characteristic;
• as a team mentality characteristic;
• as part of the pre-match tactical briefing; and
• as an opposition instruction,

and all of that has to interact with the players' attributes (e.g. work rate), the formation and the other tactical instructions (e.g. the defensive line).

What a mess.

How do I tell my player to close down the right footed LCB but not the RCB or the GK?

They could probably get rid of most of the above and just leave it to opposition instructions which in some way interact with player instructions.

Really team instructions should just be very general - probably just the formation and positions.

I mean how do you combine: direct passing with an instruction to a player to keep it short which then is contradicted in the tactical briefing?

In fact what is the point of the tactical briefing full stop?

I'll stick to my FM/FIFA behemoth. 

[f.zaarour]

On 24/02/2020 at 09:43, JEinchy said:

 

The key now is transitions....

I hope you could still give a respone to my last reaction. And i'd like to say that your input have been really an eyeopener for me in the change of FM's tactic platform. I've noticed that i was still hanging in the old way of thinking. 
I've had some game time now and I really see much better play from my side and a better understanding of the tactic and their possibilities. Especially in those away games which goes much better for me now and 
I feel that the enjoyment is coming back, little by little. I really want to say to those who had the same issues like me, to read @JEinchy 's post above. It could be usefull for you. 

Thanks a lot for your insight. 

[JEinchy]

4 hours ago, f.zaarour said:

I hope you could still give a respone to my last reaction. And i'd like to say that your input have been really an eyeopener for me in the change of FM's tactic platform. I've noticed that i was still hanging in the old way of thinking. 
I've had some game time now and I really see much better play from my side and a better understanding of the tactic and their possibilities. Especially in those away games which goes much better for me now and 
I feel that the enjoyment is coming back, little by little. I really want to say to those who had the same issues like me, to read @JEinchy 's post above. It could be usefull for you. 

Thanks a lot for your insight. 

I'm glad it's working out for you. 

It's a bit of a cop-out, but really the best thing to do is try things out and see what works for your team. And if things are working, stick with it. 

I feel like the best tactical advice I could really give is just say "try it". Because then you can see if it works or not, and if it doesn't, why it doesn't work. The thing with this game is that even with a great set-up, you'll still have games where it just doesn't work and on those occasions it's not necessarily your fault. 

To give more specific advice, I will say that I don't make a distinction between home and away. I pay more attention to the pre-match odds to estimate how the opposition might play and if we need to adjust or not. After that, it's a matter of paying attention to what the opposition are doing in-game and reacting. 

[f.zaarour]

12 hours ago, JEinchy said:

I'm glad it's working out for you. 

It's a bit of a cop-out, but really the best thing to do is try things out and see what works for your team. And if things are working, stick with it. 

I feel like the best tactical advice I could really give is just say "try it". Because then you can see if it works or not, and if it doesn't, why it doesn't work. The thing with this game is that even with a great set-up, you'll still have games where it just doesn't work and on those occasions it's not necessarily your fault. 

To give more specific advice, I will say that I don't make a distinction between home and away. I pay more attention to the pre-match odds to estimate how the opposition might play and if we need to adjust or not. After that, it's a matter of paying attention to what the opposition are doing in-game and reacting. 

Thanks for your response. It was what is missing for me, understanding the new tactics. Because I could try before but without understanding the details  (the basics of tactics) of what the TI's and other stuff do etc. its hard to be succesfull.
And that is why your post is really an eyeopener for me. You can play a game, interpret things in your own way (or the way of the older FM's) but if the game is not like that (anymore) or SI interpret those things differently then you will probably fail.
I really think that this is important for many of us who lost some enjoyment in playing the game due failing to win their games, independently of the issues with the ME.

Also your last point is a good tip to give attention to for sure.

And another question if i might ask, how usefull is it to check out the opponent's manager which tactic style he plays and what formation he uses, so you could see what tactic would be effective to use yourself against them...? 

[BnadnerB]

FM Touch will save your lives... (and bring back the joy!)

[BuryBlade]

1 hour ago, BnadnerB said:

FM Touch will save your lives... (and bring back the joy!)

I second this. FM Touch is brilliant - I play on the iPad version and despite me having just lost in my third European final in a row, all 1-0 with goals scored after 75 mins, I am having the most enjoyment from FM since FM12. 

[duff33]

I played a lot of FM10 (and previous iterations) but struggled for a long time thereafter as the game got 'deeper'; I've managed to carve out more time for FM20, and have mostly enjoyed the experience, but have found the ME a struggle - the recent beta seemed to get things about right, but then the recent proper update has made other changes which I am finding hard to compute, and that in turn is somewhat taking the fun out of things.