Pairs & Combinations - The Ultimate Guide (Released)

[orimark]

sure, I will send it :D Thank you very much :D

[kr10]

@llama3 thanks for the guide, I have been following your work for the past few editions of FM. I have 2 questions:

1. You say the PF acts like an AF regardless of duty.  But wouldn’t the PF(s) play more similarly to a DLF(s), except with slightly safer passing? On that note, how as a manager are we supposed to know how deep the various support duty strikers drop? For example, will a DLF really drop deeper than a CF? Both roles indicate “dropping into space” and holding up the ball. Is there something under the hood that differentiates the extend to which various striker roles on support drop deep?

2. I have been running a 442 across FM 19 and 20 for many seasons now, the front 2 barely combine regardless of role and duty. I have tried various combos of support and attack, footedness to encourage cutting in etc, and it doesn’t work. Is this just an ME issue? 

[llama3]

11 hours ago, kr10 said:

@llama3 thanks for the guide, I have been following your work for the past few editions of FM. I have 2 questions:

1. You say the PF acts like an AF regardless of duty.  But wouldn’t the PF(s) play more similarly to a DLF(s), except with slightly safer passing? On that note, how as a manager are we supposed to know how deep the various support duty strikers drop? For example, will a DLF really drop deeper than a CF? Both roles indicate “dropping into space” and holding up the ball. Is there something under the hood that differentiates the extend to which various striker roles on support drop deep?

2. I have been running a 442 across FM 19 and 20 for many seasons now, the front 2 barely combine regardless of role and duty. I have tried various combos of support and attack, footedness to encourage cutting in etc, and it doesn’t work. Is this just an ME issue? 

1. I could have been clearer on that bit - the PF attacks like an AF, it still looks to lead to line, move into channels etc. What changes are how deep it moves without the ball, does it press the centre backs, holding midfielder, or drop right back and press their central midfield? So when your team wins the ball back, your PF will be deeper depending on the duties - this in turn means they may not be able to play on the shoulder on the break, but could be closer for short passes. Nothing under the hood that's different to what you see on screen.
2. Probably helpful to look in the wider context of your other roles and duties, as well as your team instructions. I've recently been playing my Arsenal save and spent the first 6 months struggling to get my strikers scoring enough, before realising the issue was with my midfield instead. You can either post your own thread or post it here.

[kr10]

31 minutes ago, llama3 said:

1. I could have been clearer on that bit - the PF attacks like an AF, it still looks to lead to line, move into channels etc. What changes are how deep it moves without the ball, does it press the centre backs, holding midfielder, or drop right back and press their central midfield? So when your team wins the ball back, your PF will be deeper depending on the duties - this in turn means they may not be able to play on the shoulder on the break, but could be closer for short passes. Nothing under the hood that's different to what you see on screen.
2. Probably helpful to look in the wider context of your other roles and duties, as well as your team instructions. I've recently been playing my Arsenal save and spent the first 6 months struggling to get my strikers scoring enough, before realising the issue was with my midfield instead. You can either post your own thread or post it here.

Thanks a lot for the clarification. Point 1 makes sense now. Just to clarify, a DLF will drop deeper than a CF, even though both are on support?

My tactic looks like this - I have made a detailed post about it in the tactics sharing section, but I'll just show the key screenshot for now. My advanced forward scores plenty,and the support strikers scores a decent amount as well. My main issue is that when I look at the passing combinations and the in-game highlights, I rarely if ever see the bread and butter move I want - support striker dropping deep, receiving ball, and playing it through to the AF.

One potential issue is that the CM-s is pushing up, preventing the DLF from dropping (I have opted not to use a B2B for this reason). However, I can't really switch the midfield roles as I need a CM-d on the right side to give the WP space to drift centrally and cover for the attacking fullback. 

Both flanks work well in isolation, as does as the tactic as a whole - But I feel that stronger interplay between the strikers can take it to the next level. I also made sure to use a right footed support striker so he would cut inside with the ball, to play closer to the AF. 

Tactics in football/FM are a real passion of mine, so it frustrates me to see the combination up-front not working as I would envision it in real life. 

Edited April 11, 2020 by kr10

[llama3]

3 hours ago, kr10 said:

Thanks a lot for the clarification. Point 1 makes sense now. Just to clarify, a DLF will drop deeper than a CF, even though both are on support?

My tactic looks like this - I have made a detailed post about it in the tactics sharing section, but I'll just show the key screenshot for now. My advanced forward scores plenty,and the support strikers scores a decent amount as well. My main issue is that when I look at the passing combinations and the in-game highlights, I rarely if ever see the bread and butter move I want - support striker dropping deep, receiving ball, and playing it through to the AF.

One potential issue is that the CM-s is pushing up, preventing the DLF from dropping (I have opted not to use a B2B for this reason). However, I can't really switch the midfield roles as I need a CM-d on the right side to give the WP space to drift centrally and cover for the attacking fullback. 

Both flanks work well in isolation, as does as the tactic as a whole - But I feel that stronger interplay between the strikers can take it to the next level. I also made sure to use a right footed support striker so he would cut inside with the ball, to play closer to the AF. 

Tactics in football/FM are a real passion of mine, so it frustrates me to see the combination up-front not working as I would envision it in real life. 

I've highlighted the section that really caught my attention above. A couple of thoughts as a result:

• Firstly the balance of roles and duties overall is very solid, no major holes
• Your instructions make me feel like it's a possession orientated team, although a counter instruction seems a little out of place against a high line and shorter passing at first glance - but it might work absolutely fine, I'm guessing here
• The bit that really made me think was what if your DLF is on the right and your AF is on the left? Your AF can attack near post, drilled crosses from the byline on the left, your DLF can drop into space without a CM(S) in his way, as the CM(D) will not push so aggressively. This way, your CM(D), CM(S), WP(S) & DLF(S) will form an approximately diamond shape, good for ball retention. 

[coach vahid]

il y a une heure, llama3 a dit :

I've highlighted the section that really caught my attention above. A couple of thoughts as a result:

• Firstly the balance of roles and duties overall is very solid, no major holes
• Your instructions make me feel like it's a possession orientated team, although a counter instruction seems a little out of place against a high line and shorter passing at first glance - but it might work absolutely fine, I'm guessing here
• The bit that really made me think was what if your DLF is on the right and your AF is on the left? Your AF can attack near post, drilled crosses from the byline on the left, your DLF can drop into space without a CM(S) in his way, as the CM(D) will not push so aggressively. This way, your CM(D), CM(S), WP(S) & DLF(S) will form an approximately diamond shape, good for ball retention. 

Hi... But with this solution, is there no risk to see the half spaces right "congested"? 

Thanks. 

[llama3]

52 minutes ago, coach vahid said:

Hi... But with this solution, is there no risk to see the half spaces right "congested"? 

Thanks. 

I don’t see a reason why. 

[kr10]

7 hours ago, llama3 said:

I've highlighted the section that really caught my attention above. A couple of thoughts as a result:

• Firstly the balance of roles and duties overall is very solid, no major holes
• Your instructions make me feel like it's a possession orientated team, although a counter instruction seems a little out of place against a high line and shorter passing at first glance - but it might work absolutely fine, I'm guessing here
• The bit that really made me think was what if your DLF is on the right and your AF is on the left? Your AF can attack near post, drilled crosses from the byline on the left, your DLF can drop into space without a CM(S) in his way, as the CM(D) will not push so aggressively. This way, your CM(D), CM(S), WP(S) & DLF(S) will form an approximately diamond shape, good for ball retention. 

Thank you again for the reply - I hope this discussion is aiding an understanding of the game and partnerships and building on your wonderful guide, rather than hijacking it into advice just on my tactic (I wouldn't want it to be the latter).

A couple of points on my side:

• Both counter and counter-press to me are situational, as well as short passing. My overall vision is to build up play through the right flank, and then release one of the 3 attacking runners (making runs from 3 different strata), with an incisive pass - centrally to the AP, a quick switch of play to the winger, or the overlap to the attacking full back
• In addition to your pairs and combinations guide, I had already tried to incorporate the principles of supply and demand, making sure that each attack duty player has at least 2-3 support duty players from different positions on the pitch supplying him the ball, ideally whilst ensuring horizontal and vertical depth in attack
• I actually did try the DLF on the right striker slot, precisely as you had mentioned to create a diamond in possession and further aid to point 1 above - after watching a few games, I noticed an issue similar to what @coach vahid had mentioned above
  • The DLF and WP were constantly operating in very similar space which I didn't like, as I wanted both of them to be the creators of my side, and ideally not supply from such similar positions
  • More importantly - and something to keep in mind for everyone making a tactic - my attacking winger wasn't getting as much service - the DLF was one of the key supply providers for the winger (in addition to the full back and CM-S

Referring back to your guide, the DLF-s has a hard coded instruction "move into channels", as does the AF role. I can understand this on the AF, as he needs to lead the line and track wide at times to receive the ball, and play it across goal. But, having both strikers on move into channels to me creates a tendency for horizontal separation between the 2 strikers. I want the DLF to stay centrally whilst dropping deep (as you have mentioned in your guide) - which is why I tried the PF(s), as he doesn't have move into channels hard coded. 

In light of the above, I do believe that there is a role/behavior that should be added to FM - the vanilla "second striker" - someone who drops deep in central areas, and doesn't have "hold up ball" hard coded - players that come to mind our J.Felix, Angel Correa, Dybala. The current DLF in the ME seems to value physical, strong players who can hold up the ball - such as Dzeko, Giroud etc. I realize that a "False 9" has similar PIs hard coded, but it doesn't feel right using a F9 in a 2 striker partnership, as this is used in real life in a classic 433. 

Anyway, apologies for the long post, like I said I hope this is aiding to the quality of discussion that you have started. 

[llama3]

On 12/04/2020 at 05:51, kr10 said:

Thank you again for the reply - I hope this discussion is aiding an understanding of the game and partnerships and building on your wonderful guide, rather than hijacking it into advice just on my tactic (I wouldn't want it to be the latter).

A couple of points on my side:

• Both counter and counter-press to me are situational, as well as short passing. My overall vision is to build up play through the right flank, and then release one of the 3 attacking runners (making runs from 3 different strata), with an incisive pass - centrally to the AP, a quick switch of play to the winger, or the overlap to the attacking full back
• In addition to your pairs and combinations guide, I had already tried to incorporate the principles of supply and demand, making sure that each attack duty player has at least 2-3 support duty players from different positions on the pitch supplying him the ball, ideally whilst ensuring horizontal and vertical depth in attack
• I actually did try the DLF on the right striker slot, precisely as you had mentioned to create a diamond in possession and further aid to point 1 above - after watching a few games, I noticed an issue similar to what @coach vahid had mentioned above
  • The DLF and WP were constantly operating in very similar space which I didn't like, as I wanted both of them to be the creators of my side, and ideally not supply from such similar positions
  • More importantly - and something to keep in mind for everyone making a tactic - my attacking winger wasn't getting as much service - the DLF was one of the key supply providers for the winger (in addition to the full back and CM-S

Referring back to your guide, the DLF-s has a hard coded instruction "move into channels", as does the AF role. I can understand this on the AF, as he needs to lead the line and track wide at times to receive the ball, and play it across goal. But, having both strikers on move into channels to me creates a tendency for horizontal separation between the 2 strikers. I want the DLF to stay centrally whilst dropping deep (as you have mentioned in your guide) - which is why I tried the PF(s), as he doesn't have move into channels hard coded. 

In light of the above, I do believe that there is a role/behavior that should be added to FM - the vanilla "second striker" - someone who drops deep in central areas, and doesn't have "hold up ball" hard coded - players that come to mind our J.Felix, Angel Correa, Dybala. The current DLF in the ME seems to value physical, strong players who can hold up the ball - such as Dzeko, Giroud etc. I realize that a "False 9" has similar PIs hard coded, but it doesn't feel right using a F9 in a 2 striker partnership, as this is used in real life in a classic 433. 

Anyway, apologies for the long post, like I said I hope this is aiding to the quality of discussion that you have started. 

Sorry it's taken a few days to get to:

• Looks like a lot of thought has gone in to who is supporting to who in the system. You've mentioned vertical and horizontal depth in attack and you're spot on - you need both. It's pointless having lots of the ball if you're not stretching opponents and creating gaps. 
• Your observations on how the DLF and WP interacted are a good indicator for why watching your team is important! Good observation to realise what you aren't seeing that you expect, rather than just what you are seeing. 
• I have the same beliefs in how I see a False Nine - a positional player, rather as a second striker per sé. I tend to use 1 striker systems a lot, but was recently playing a game as Chippenham Town, where I have had moderate success using a target man dropping deeper - this suits a more direct side, but obviously a target man is not a typical choice if you have a possession side.

You are right, the post adds to the discussion - keep them coming.

[camoulton21]

Hey @llama3 sick guide! This type of resource is something that I and others can always go back to when making a tactic. That's what makes it such a great asset to the community so thanks for taking the time. I have a couple of questions for you if you don't mind. I'm using the 4-3-1-2 formation btw

1. You spoke about midfield roles that can provide some width (mezzala, carrilero, trequartista), what would be striker roles that are also comfortable moving wide? What I'd like is for my 2 strikers to move width when necessary aswell.  
2. My formation is both narrow and top heavy which places a lot of responsibility on the FB. They obviously need to get forward and provide width but don't have a DM or 3rd CB to cover them like other narrow formations, so if they get too far forward we could be vulnerable to counters. What role would you recommend to provide this balance at FB? On the guide you recommend using FB(S) with caution, is this the type of situation that this role/duty could work?

Thanks in advance

[Andros]

Great guide @llama3!

 

If you intend to update this in the future, maybe a suggestion is to look at how different areas can combine with each other.  I know you have looked at this in 'wide partnerships' and 'building a team', but I wonder if adding the same great analysis that you have in the wide partnerships to other areas would really help us, eg::

Wide midfielder + central midfielder

central midfielder + forward

forward + wide midfielder

Full backs + central midfield

etc

 Anyway, thanks again for the guide.

[wixxi]

For sure this is a must read for anyone struggling with tactics. Only a short read but completely changed the way I think about creating systems and was super helpful.

[who_is_it]

How many specific and generic roles it adviced to use ? 

[llama3]

On 23/06/2020 at 22:26, who_is_it said:

How many specific and generic roles it adviced to use ? 

I don’t, it’s about everything working together in a balanced system.

[tamertunatt]

How is complete forward (Support) and Target Man(attack) partnership in STC?

[Hammy_Alpha]

In regards to the WB roles and a winger you put an ! does that mean going into the PI and set cut inside or stay wide for one of two players on that flank? 

[Daniele77]

No mention about any flat trio attacking combinations?

[llama3]

On 15/07/2020 at 23:00, tamertunatt said:

How is complete forward (Support) and Target Man(attack) partnership in STC?

You've got one player dropping off and attacking from deep and one pushing up - that's fine. It's a pairing that are quite direct in style - so I'd basically say to use it in the right circumstances. For example, I can imagine a Wing Play 4-4-2 being ideal - TM to attack crosses and a CF(s) dropping off and can pick up knock-downs, receive the ball off central midfield and act as a creative hub.

On 16/07/2020 at 16:54, Hammy_Alpha said:

In regards to the WB roles and a winger you put an ! does that mean going into the PI and set cut inside or stay wide for one of two players on that flank? 

Use with caution... So it's one you need to watch carefully and see if it behaves in the right way. If it works well, you could have a very aggressive flank, overloading the full back. If it works badly, an organised defence just sits there and stifles it, removing a potential outball because they occupy the same space.

On 20/07/2020 at 13:20, Daniele77 said:

No mention about any flat trio attacking combinations?

I don't use them ever, so not placed to give advice on them really! Principles are the same - who is providing width, are they all doing the same thing, or providing different angles/routes of attack? 

[tamertunatt]

5 hours ago, llama3 said:

You've got one player dropping off and attacking from deep and one pushing up - that's fine. It's a pairing that are quite direct in style - so I'd basically say to use it in the right circumstances. For example, I can imagine a Wing Play 4-4-2 being ideal - TM to attack crosses and a CF(s) dropping off and can pick up knock-downs, receive the ball off central midfield and act as a creative hub.

Use with caution... So it's one you need to watch carefully and see if it behaves in the right way. If it works well, you could have a very aggressive flank, overloading the full back. If it works badly, an organised defence just sits there and stifles it, removing a potential outball because they occupy the same space.

I don't use them ever, so not placed to give advice on them really! Principles are the same - who is providing width, are they all doing the same thing, or providing different angles/routes of attack? 

Thank you for answering my question sir.I am thinking of using this two striker roles on 4-4-2 formation.By the way I consider that choosing the midfield duo's roles is the most crucial stuff in this tactic.For instance my preferred midfield duo,Central Midfield(Attack) and Deep Lying Playmaker(Support).

[Gary James]

@llama3 hi mate I am playing a 433 with an atm .

I use a complete forward but every type of attacking midfielder I choose ends up saying the roles do not work well together on the tactics screen.

Have you noticed this? I find the team play well together and the st and cam have a green line but not quite perfect.

I'm a bit OCD so this bothers me more than it should lol.

My Atm is currently a second striker but I've tried them all over this version to no avail.

[llama3]

On 25/09/2020 at 20:44, Gary James said:

@llama3 hi mate I am playing a 433 with an atm .

I use a complete forward but every type of attacking midfielder I choose ends up saying the roles do not work well together on the tactics screen.

Have you noticed this? I find the team play well together and the st and cam have a green line but not quite perfect.

I'm a bit OCD so this bothers me more than it should lol.

My Atm is currently a second striker but I've tried them all over this version to no avail.

Haven't noticed that. Do you mean the green analysis screen? Is this to do with suitability of the player(s) for their roles?

[ryandormer]

@llama3Only just gotten around to downloading this, and it is a fantastic piece of work! Thank you.

Just a couple of questions concerning 433 (DM), which is my favourite formation, but one I often struggle to get working:

This is how you ended up settling on your team. The CM(a) and W(a) are both on the same flank--is that how you would recommend having them set up? I have seen some people suggest that the runner from midfield should be on the opposite side to the attacking wide player.

And also, what would you do with, for example, an AP(a) and Mez(s) combo? Because the (a) player doesn't have forward runs, while the (s) player does.

Thanks again, really appreciate the work that went into this.

[llama3]

So, in answer to your questions below...

4 hours ago, ryandormer said:

@llama3Only just gotten around to downloading this, and it is a fantastic piece of work! Thank you.

Just a couple of questions concerning 433 (DM), which is my favourite formation, but one I often struggle to get working:

This is how you ended up settling on your team. The CM(a) and W(a) are both on the same flank--is that how you would recommend having them set up? I have seen some people suggest that the runner from midfield should be on the opposite side to the attacking wide player.

And also, what would you do with, for example, an AP(a) and Mez(s) combo? Because the (a) player doesn't have forward runs, while the (s) player does.

Thanks again, really appreciate the work that went into this.

It's not just the MRC & AMR you've got to consider, but also the DR too - he's a support role behind, whereas I have an attacking role on the left hand side, so don't want the MLC to be attacking too far ahead when I have a DL trying to get forward and an AML already in an advanced position. You can set them up either way round, but that was my reasoning for the balance I selected. 

An AP(a) & MEZ(s) is a great combination as long as you have an appropriately defensive midfielder sat behind for balance. They dovetail nicely in fairness, the MEZ will move a bit wider (so try not to place next to a winger ideally), but the AP(a) will drive forward with the ball and play through balls. As long as you know you have the right elements in your midfield, it doesn't matter who has what duty. 

[ryandormer]

43 minutes ago, llama3 said:

So, in answer to your questions below...

It's not just the MRC & AMR you've got to consider, but also the DR too - he's a support role behind, whereas I have an attacking role on the left hand side, so don't want the MLC to be attacking too far ahead when I have a DL trying to get forward and an AML already in an advanced position. You can set them up either way round, but that was my reasoning for the balance I selected. 

An AP(a) & MEZ(s) is a great combination as long as you have an appropriately defensive midfielder sat behind for balance. They dovetail nicely in fairness, the MEZ will move a bit wider (so try not to place next to a winger ideally), but the AP(a) will drive forward with the ball and play through balls. As long as you know you have the right elements in your midfield, it doesn't matter who has what duty. 

Thanks for the response, really appreciate it.

Followed your advice, and the results and quality of play have massively improved.

[llama3]

2 hours ago, ryandormer said:

Thanks for the response, really appreciate it.

Followed your advice, and the results and quality of play have massively improved.

Awesome, glad it's helped you!

[PequenoGenio]

18 horas atrás, llama3 disse:

So, in answer to your questions below...

It's not just the MRC & AMR you've got to consider, but also the DR too - he's a support role behind, whereas I have an attacking role on the left hand side, so don't want the MLC to be attacking too far ahead when I have a DL trying to get forward and an AML already in an advanced position. You can set them up either way round, but that was my reasoning for the balance I selected. 

An AP(a) & MEZ(s) is a great combination as long as you have an appropriately defensive midfielder sat behind for balance. They dovetail nicely in fairness, the MEZ will move a bit wider (so try not to place next to a winger ideally), but the AP(a) will drive forward with the ball and play through balls. As long as you know you have the right elements in your midfield, it doesn't matter who has what duty. 

So what is the best? IF or IW? 

[llama3]

3 hours ago, PequenoGenio said:

So what is the best? IF or IW? 

There’s no “best” - it depends on your style of play, personnel etc

[isignedupfornorealreason]

I'd like to pinch your opinion;

 

Just considering, if I went with a three man midfield (4-3-3, you know the one!) I was considering something like:

 

DM/D - AP/S - B2BM (Defensive / Creative / Movement)

They would have a front three of an AF, backed with an Inside forward (attack) on the left, alongside the AP and on the other side a Winger (support).

 

In my head, the way I visualise it, the AP should be getting the ball, being able to fire it forward (or rather, through ball it) to the IF, AF, or alongside to the Winger or B2B, or back to the DM or Wingbacks (both on support, so should be taking up a midfield position). 

Do you think my visualisation would be on the right track? 

 

I've been considering the AP, it's not a role I usually use, I tend to go for DLP and when I do play an AM, I tend to use Treq; but I was sucked into reading old "number 10 is dead" threads and they've been making me consider using the role for once. I'm trying to make sure he has lots of support without getting players in the way, as it seems he needs to have space in order to be the star of the show. What do you reckon?

[llama3]

16 hours ago, isignedupfornorealreason said:

I'd like to pinch your opinion;

 

Just considering, if I went with a three man midfield (4-3-3, you know the one!) I was considering something like:

 

DM/D - AP/S - B2BM (Defensive / Creative / Movement)

They would have a front three of an AF, backed with an Inside forward (attack) on the left, alongside the AP and on the other side a Winger (support).

 

In my head, the way I visualise it, the AP should be getting the ball, being able to fire it forward (or rather, through ball it) to the IF, AF, or alongside to the Winger or B2B, or back to the DM or Wingbacks (both on support, so should be taking up a midfield position). 

Do you think my visualisation would be on the right track? 

 

I've been considering the AP, it's not a role I usually use, I tend to go for DLP and when I do play an AM, I tend to use Treq; but I was sucked into reading old "number 10 is dead" threads and they've been making me consider using the role for once. I'm trying to make sure he has lots of support without getting players in the way, as it seems he needs to have space in order to be the star of the show. What do you reckon?

So, in theory - yes. What you need to think about is if the roles and duties match the instructions you’re using. So, for example - if you’re playing quite route one, is an AP what you’re after? Most possession based systems will be ok with an AP. The issue I could foresee is if the AF pushes high, against a deep line, the AP might struggle to find him. So, if you’re attacking space, that AP will have options to look for.

[isignedupfornorealreason]

On 16/11/2020 at 14:24, llama3 said:

What you need to think about is if the roles and duties match the instructions you’re using

My team instructions tend to be sparse! Normally I stick something like, a bit more urgent pressing, and get the keeper to distribute the ball short to full backs or centrebacks depending on how top heavy the opposition set up is. My passing range etc tends to be on the mixed/neutral side of things. I'm usually on balanced mentality as well. I know it would probably be more beneficial to specialise in a style, but I've felt in recent years that a team needs to be able to encompass everything, from passing short to going route one if its the right option. A jack of all trades route I suppose?

[bigman]

Not sure if this is the right place but my post was deleted from

another thread

 

I have a quick question about my 433 with arsenal. I’ve not played for years until this season so I want to know or gauge peoples opinions on my basic set up of a vertical tiki taka

 

st - Laca dlp attack

lw - auba if attack

Rw - Pepe if attack

lcm - ceballos mez support

rcm - partey b2b support

dm - xhaka dlp defend

lb - tierney wb support

lcb - Gabriel cb defend

rcb - luiz bpd defend

rb - bellerin wb support

Gk - Leno dl defend

my main question is mez over ap or roaming playmaker. Does it make more sense as I have xhaka as a dlp? 
 

Also, Laca as attack or support? Does a formation with two inside forwards have to use a deeper f9 or dlp to flourish? 

thanks 

 

[llama3]

On 29/11/2020 at 13:35, bigman said:

Not sure if this is the right place but my post was deleted from

another thread

 

 

I have a quick question about my 433 with arsenal. I’ve not played for years until this season so I want to know or gauge peoples opinions on my basic set up of a vertical tiki taka

 

st - Laca dlp attack

lw - auba if attack

Rw - Pepe if attack

lcm - ceballos mez support

rcm - partey b2b support

dm - xhaka dlp defend

lb - tierney wb support

lcb - Gabriel cb defend

rcb - luiz bpd defend

rb - bellerin wb support

Gk - Leno dl defend

my main question is mez over ap or roaming playmaker. Does it make more sense as I have xhaka as a dlp? 
 

Also, Laca as attack or support? Does a formation with two inside forwards have to use a deeper f9 or dlp to flourish? 

thanks 

 

Hi @bigman- I'm making some assumptions that your team instructions are all default vertical tiki-taka... Basically it's generally quite close to being just right. I think your front 3 all on attack duties, all trying to occupy narrow areas is a bit of an issue. If you could vary that by mixing up the duties a bit, and/or changing a wide player into an IW, it just opens up some different angles of attack. I really like the Mezzala on the same side as the Inverted Winger. Basically the way to think about how the duties behave (in general, there are some exceptions - notably playmakers) is that attack duties will make runs ahead of the ball, support duties will stay with play and want it into feet, defend duties hold position. If your front 3 are all on attack duties, it can mean your front 3 get separated from your midfield. One of your attackers needs some link with the midfield. I'd consider making Lacazette a DLF/CF(s), forming a diamond with midfield, Aubameyang an IF(a) and Pepe an IW(s) - but frankly there's so many variations in there you could use.

[bigman]

1 hour ago, llama3 said:

Hi @bigman- I'm making some assumptions that your team instructions are all default vertical tiki-taka... Basically it's generally quite close to being just right. I think your front 3 all on attack duties, all trying to occupy narrow areas is a bit of an issue. If you could vary that by mixing up the duties a bit, and/or changing a wide player into an IW, it just opens up some different angles of attack. I really like the Mezzala on the same side as the Inverted Winger. Basically the way to think about how the duties behave (in general, there are some exceptions - notably playmakers) is that attack duties will make runs ahead of the ball, support duties will stay with play and want it into feet, defend duties hold position. If your front 3 are all on attack duties, it can mean your front 3 get separated from your midfield. One of your attackers needs some link with the midfield. I'd consider making Lacazette a DLF/CF(s), forming a diamond with midfield, Aubameyang an IF(a) and Pepe an IW(s) - but frankly there's so many variations in there you could use.

Thank you for your reply

eventually, I would prefer a lineup with a more attack minded striker and more of a wide provider on aml 

does an inverted winger have to be opposite footed to the side they play on? 
 

I will use Laca as a dlp (s) I think and see how effective it is in comparison 

[llama3]

1 hour ago, bigman said:

does an inverted winger have to be opposite footed to the side they play on? 

Helpful, but not always. It's the movement which is the most important factor.

[Kieranovks1]

What is so bad about using two attack duties on the same side wide players? A IF/IW on attack and A WB/A in the fbl slot. Dont often seem to get caught out in fm21 with  issues tracking back. I use the mark tighter PI on the I/w to hopefully have him defend more. 

[llama3]

On 08/01/2021 at 19:59, Kieranovks1 said:

What is so bad about using two attack duties on the same side wide players? A IF/IW on attack and A WB/A in the fbl slot. Dont often seem to get caught out in fm21 with  issues tracking back. I use the mark tighter PI on the I/w to hopefully have him defend more. 

If you don't get caught out - great. Good to see you have a solution that helps avoid it. It is a risk of the approach though and that's why I suggest caution with it. I've used systems with both wide players on a flank on attack before and been happy with it. But what my guide is for is building logical, sensible tactics. 

[craigd84]

im still struggling to get a treq and poacher set up. I seem to create tactics where wide men  are the main goal scorers.

[safcrhys]

Hey @llama3 would like to get your opinion on the role of my attacking midfielder specifically. When I'm playing with three in the central midfield area I always try to have a defend, support and attack duty (such as in the attached image). However I am playing with a forward on attack duty so I'm wondering if I should change the attacking midfielder to a support duty? Cheers.

[llama3]

23 hours ago, safcrhys said:

Hey @llama3 would like to get your opinion on the role of my attacking midfielder specifically. When I'm playing with three in the central midfield area I always try to have a defend, support and attack duty (such as in the attached image). However I am playing with a forward on attack duty so I'm wondering if I should change the attacking midfielder to a support duty? Cheers.

Yes, I agree - I'd go with a support duty there in AMC position. 

[safcrhys]

48 minutes ago, llama3 said:

Yes, I agree - I'd go with a support duty there in AMC position. 

Thank you mate!

[TelcontarTargaryen]

Hm, this is actually mostly just the thing I was looking for. Thank you.

[fabioferreira94]

Can you traduce for portuguese? Thank you so much 

[llama3]

On 03/04/2021 at 07:22, fabioferreira94 said:

Can you traduce for portuguese? Thank you so much 

If someone is able to translate they can  get in contact. 
 

Unfortunately my language skills are not up to much...

[mibsweden]

On 08/02/2021 at 10:14, llama3 said:

Yes, I agree - I'd go with a support duty there in AMC position. 

Would a TQ be feasible in such a system too? I am thinking he would be a little more attacking than AM-S but still drop deep (and roam).

[llama3]

11 hours ago, mibsweden said:

Would a TQ be feasible in such a system too? I am thinking he would be a little more attacking than AM-S but still drop deep (and roam).

Use of a Trequartista depends heavily on the way you press. As he doesn’t press much/at all, it can cause gaps in your press. You might find a single player doesn’t make much difference, but I wouldn’t use it in a Gegenpress system personally. I’d be using him to work gaps and space in a possession system instead.

But a Trequartista can definitely play instead of AM(s)

[𝘚𝘢𝘵𝘢𝘯]

Great thread! If you don't mind, I'd like to ask for your opinion on my tactic:

How do I improve this tactic if I want to stick with this shape? I signed Messi on a free + have a lot of good strikers, that's why I want to play with 1 Treq and 2 strikers. Thanks!

Edited June 14, 2021 by 𝘚𝘢𝘵𝘢𝘯

[Ceechalla]

Dude, thank you so much for sharing the wisdom. I have a few questions I hope you can answer. I'd like to play a 4-3-3 with my ST playing in a number 9 role, but at the same time I want balance within my team. What role striker role would you recommend to achieve this?

Attached is the image you used as an example to achieve balance. I use the same roles but my ST doesn't often score goals. 

Does the Team Fluidity have to be flexible for the tactic to be considered balanced?

Edited October 11, 2021 by Ceechalla

[llama3]

3 hours ago, Ceechalla said:

Dude, thank you so much for sharing the wisdom. I have a few questions I hope you can answer. I'd like to play a 4-3-3 with my ST playing in a number 9 role, but at the same time I want balance within my team. What role striker role would you recommend to achieve this?

Attached is the image you used as an example to achieve balance. I use the same roles but my ST doesn't often score goals. 

Does the Team Fluidity have to be flexible for the tactic to be considered balanced?

It’s entirely dependent on your team style. Literally, what kind of players have you got? What kind of style are you playing? You can’t pick roles and duties until you’ve got an idea how you’re going to play.

[Ceechalla]

20 hours ago, llama3 said:

It’s entirely dependent on your team style. Literally, what kind of players have you got? What kind of style are you playing? You can’t pick roles and duties until you’ve got an idea how you’re going to play.

Currently managing Crystal Palace (default squad players)

I'd like to play pass and move football, with my ST being the main goal-netter

My current team instructions are default, literally a clean slate, mold me lol.

Let's say you had the ideal players . I'd like to know what roles you would use to achieve balance and play pass and move football.

[llama3]

6 hours ago, Ceechalla said:

Currently managing Crystal Palace (default squad players)

I'd like to play pass and move football, with my ST being the main goal-netter

My current team instructions are default, literally a clean slate, mold me lol.

Let's say you had the ideal players . I'd like to know what roles you would use to achieve balance and play pass and move football.

You can only do what the squad is capable of - so Palace are set up for counter attacking football. I take the default templates and tweak them. I’d probably start with fluid counter and go from there. You could fit in Zaha, Townsend, Eze quite easily. Maybe Zaha as AF, Townsend right as IWs and Eze as IFs - not sure who’s offering any playmaking in midfield though…