The Japhet Tanganga conundrum

[steam just is]

In our chase to make FM worldly realistic where does the sudden rise of an unknown fit in?

as a spurs fan I’m choosing Japhet but I’m sure each club has one. His attributes will be 9s and 10s at most. He plays one senior game and suddenly they actually should be 14 and 15s.
So can FM allow a player to double their attributes after one senior game as the actual numbers only become apparent in a senior match?

this goes deeper into the whole attributes conceit which is both essential for the game but actually pretty unrealistic.

any opinions gratefully recieved 

[Scott Jackson]

I've thought about this also!

I use Vardy as an example, in the game you would never be able to take a twenty something player from non league and turn him into a top quality striker in a few seasons but in real life it can happen (even if it's very rare). I just think it is like you say, the need to give players attributes then control that progression to a set potential means you can't suddenly have a player who can massively adapt to playing at a higher level like a Vardy or Tanganga. You have to wait for a database update where they might up the stats significantly.

I'm not sure how it could be implemented as it would need a player to change their PA in the database most likely!

[sporadicsmiles]

The FM equivalent is the sudden increase in development a player gets when he is introduced to the first team. Which is more realistic anyway, I think. I think it is also far too early to be saying Tanganga is the next big things. A few great performances does not mean he is suddenly the next big defensive thing. Lots of young players have good performances before regressing back to their level.

I would like to see a bigger difference in young player trajectory for sure. Some players who suddenly take of when playing first team football. Some who are slow burners. 

[dannyfc]

It isn't that Tanganga suddenly hugely progressed, he was probably always ready to step in but no one actually never truly knew the extent of his ability. 

The problem with FM is you can immediately assess whether a player isnt good enough without ever playing him. 

The only way around this is adding ambiguity to how attributes are viewed. It's been discussed previously, but similarly to the attribute masking with how scouting works you should only learn the 'true' value after 30+ games. 

[emil_sbn]

I played him in fm19 with great success in a sunderland save, stopped playing when we were in the europa league and he was really good last year too!

[Welshace]

Yeah, anyone who thinks the lad has suddenly become good overnight is clearly missing the point...

 

He hasn't, he's just been given a chance, and he hasn't become a world beater... he's had a good game or possibly two and the hype train gets going...

 

Fm has never really given into knee jerk reactions and nor should it.. researchers can only really move attributes a certain amount within a set limit from game to game (and within windows etc) to stop this very thing... and this is a great thing imo.

 

If the lad suddenly starts playing every game and shows he's a prem standard player, his attributes will start to reflect this, right now, he's just promising and his stats in game arent that far off the mark imo ... especially when you consider that the irl press are already claiming there is someone even better in the youth teams ready to go... ridiculous.

[jb_0792]

Only way I can think is to tie in some kind of dynamic potential to a mixture of adaptability, determination and their personality. Players who constantly rise to new challenges etc.

[tts0]

I still to this day cannot understand, why FM is so one-dimentional in that matter. I play a lot of OOTP games and they have that figured out quite while ago. Showing attributes as absolute numbers instead of weighted/adjusted to level of copetition scouting etc. Is just stupid. Whats the point of scouting when you already know what given player is like? Second - no talent randomness whatsoever. You never gonna see flameouts in this game and very rarely if ever some late bloomers. There is no fun in it anymore so I tend to hide the attributes completely. At least your scout can overestimate(but never under for some reason) potentian when it comes to star ratungs.

[likesiamesefish]

This has gotten way better over the years. Players will sometimes lose potential star rating but regain it later on in their career. I've even seen players exceed the potential rating that they had all along on my save. All based on star rating as I don't play with visible CA/PA.

[Welshace]

2 hours ago, tts0 said:

I still to this day cannot understand, why FM is so one-dimentional in that matter. I play a lot of OOTP games and they have that figured out quite while ago. Showing attributes as absolute numbers instead of weighted/adjusted to level of copetition scouting etc. Is just stupid. Whats the point of scouting when you already know what given player is like? Second - no talent randomness whatsoever. You never gonna see flameouts in this game and very rarely if ever some late bloomers. There is no fun in it anymore so I tend to hide the attributes completely. At least your scout can overestimate(but never under for some reason) potentian when it comes to star ratungs.

First point would be that the 1-20 stats you see aren't absolute.. it actually goes up in .1 increments...  second point is that attribute masking is a thing.

[sammayel666]

9 hours ago, Scott Jackson said:

I've thought about this also!

I use Vardy as an example, in the game you would never be able to take a twenty something player from non league and turn him into a top quality striker in a few seasons but in real life it can happen (even if it's very rare). I just think it is like you say, the need to give players attributes then control that progression to a set potential means you can't suddenly have a player who can massively adapt to playing at a higher level like a Vardy or Tanganga. You have to wait for a database update where they might up the stats significantly.

I'm not sure how it could be implemented as it would need a player to change their PA in the database most likely!

I don't have an example from the current version, but in an FM17 save I did this!

There was a regen 25yo AM RLC/S C playing for a League 2 side banging in the goals.

His attributes were OK, but nothing particularly special and I figured why not take a chance. It was an absolutely Vardy inspired search btw. This player had come through at Arsenal and been released, went to the Conference and then come into League 2.

First season in the Premier League and he managed about 4 goals in 17 but his attributes jumped pretty significantly. Second season he scored 31 in 36 and got called up for England.

I think FM absolutely can do it if the player is willing to take a chance 

[Grifty]

14 hours ago, tts0 said:

I still to this day cannot understand, why FM is so one-dimentional in that matter. I play a lot of OOTP games and they have that figured out quite while ago. Showing attributes as absolute numbers instead of weighted/adjusted to level of copetition scouting etc. Is just stupid. Whats the point of scouting when you already know what given player is like? Second - no talent randomness whatsoever. You never gonna see flameouts in this game and very rarely if ever some late bloomers. There is no fun in it anymore so I tend to hide the attributes completely. At least your scout can overestimate(but never under for some reason) potentian when it comes to star ratungs.

If the game is "just stupid" and "no fun in it anymore" why do you force yourself to play?

[steam just is]

Really appreciate the chat this started. I still love the game...it’s more a question of finessing the realism.

if attributes can suddenly jump after a small amount of game time that’s a good thing and something I haven’t noticed.

2 things come to mind. The person who said the game doesn’t dynamically account for late bloomers or sudden drops is right. We shouldn’t wait for updates. Identifying the stars and flops should be part of the game.

my second point is something I’ve been banging out about until people fall into a long sleep. Make the attributes much more fluid and entirely based on training that week. The 12 month average will also be included so you know generally where a player is at. It gives training more weight and allows for the sudden identification of potential stars (Tanganga) and sudden flops (Eric Dier).
 

 

[Spurs08]

13 minutes ago, steam just is said:

Really appreciate the chat this started. I still love the game...it’s more a question of finessing the realism.

if attributes can suddenly jump after a small amount of game time that’s a good thing and something I haven’t noticed.

2 things come to mind. The person who said the game doesn’t dynamically account for late bloomers or sudden drops is right. We shouldn’t wait for updates. Identifying the stars and flops should be part of the game.

my second point is something I’ve been banging out about until people fall into a long sleep. Make the attributes much more fluid and entirely based on training that week. The 12 month average will also be included so you know generally where a player is at. It gives training more weight and allows for the sudden identification of potential stars (Tanganga) and sudden flops (Eric Dier).
 

 

An Eric Dier type situation is already possible - his sudden decline was due to injury (well, illness in this case) which can happen in FM too.

[tts0]

16 hours ago, Welshace said:

First point would be that the 1-20 stats you see aren't absolute.. it actually goes up in .1 increments...  second point is that attribute masking is a thing.

So, you clearly dont understand the concept. Its not about scale, wether its 1-20, 1-100, with or without decimals or whatever, its about the fact that your scout cannot be wrong about absolute value of a given attribute. When player is fully scouted you know exactly whether his pace is 20, 18, 17.6, or whatever scale you used. I want my scout to be compeletly wrong. Eg. players X dribbling rating in editor is 10 but my inexperienced scout watched him destroing some amateurs in an exotic league and thought "this guy has at least 15 dribbling" or whatever. Then you buy this guy and after few games you realise that hes not that good at all.

[Welshace]

1 minute ago, tts0 said:

So, you clearly dont understand the concept. Its not about scale, wether its 1-20, 1-100, with or without decimals or whatever, its about the fact that your scout cannot be wrong about absolute value of a given attribute. When player is fully scouted you know exactly whether his pace is 20, 18, 17.6, or whatever scale you used. I want my scout to be compeletly wrong. Eg. players X dribbling rating in editor is 10 but my inexperienced scout watched him destroing some amateurs in an exotic league and thought "this guy has at least 15 dribbling" or whatever. Then you buy this guy and after few games you realise that hes not that good at all.

Ah ok, so you aren't happy with the current model where scouts will say the player has pace between 10-15 but im not sure what exactly yet?

[tts0]

Just now, Welshace said:

Ah ok, so you aren't happy with the current model where scouts will say the player has pace between 10-15 but im not sure what exactly yet?

Actually, this is compeletly different thing. And its fine. I just want my scout, when compeleting his assigment(narrowing down that "between 10-15") to be compeletly wrong about his assesments. He might narrow it down to 12 but players actual absolute pace rating, which you could only see in editor, would be 9 - lets say. Of course, the better the scout, the more in line with actual ratings his assesment should be. But never perfect as you never know IRL.

[tts0]

And one more thing. Discovering players actual attributes should take years of him playing at certain level of football. Can you really tell if a player is good after only few good games in some bush league? You cant and its always a crapshoot. Thousands of players every year are trafsered to a better teams this way and it very rarerly pans out.

[dannyfc]

1 hour ago, Welshace said:

Ah ok, so you aren't happy with the current model where scouts will say the player has pace between 10-15 but im not sure what exactly yet?

In context of youth players or new signings though, like Tanganga, you already immediately know his value despite never playing a professional game.