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I've got my side to the prem from the depths of the Vanarama North but am struggling. The main reason for this is lack of chances we create.

Generally we seem to have 3-5 shots in the whole game. 

The basic idea of mine if that we overload the left and unlock the right but we don't seem to be able to defend anymore and keep losing the ball. I've tried out various different LOE and DL along with Attacking width but still no joy.

I'm not expecting to win the Prem in the first few seasons or anything but maybe be more competitive in games with mid to bottom table teams.

We are constantly stuck in our own half no matter what I do the players don't seem to be able to string a pass together anymore.

 

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Edited by djpdavey

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2 hours ago, djpdavey said:

I've got my side to the prem from the depths of the Vanarama North but am struggling. The main reason for this is lack of chances we create.

Generally we seem to have 3-5 shots in the whole game. 

The basic idea of mine if that we overload the left and unlock the right but we don't seem to be able to defend anymore and keep losing the ball. I've tried out various different LOE and DL along with Attacking width but still no joy

I don't know what you expect from a team just promoted to an elite league such as the EPL. While there is room for improvement in your tactic overall, I think your first priority at the moment should be to try and secure survival in the league by keeping it tight in defense and simple in attack. Which means defending with 2 solid banks of four and trying to counter-attack quickly when you win the ball back. For a team of relatively low quality and reputation (relative to the league you compete in), playing any "fancy" kind of stuff is not a good idea IMHO.

Now, I can give you an example of how I would set the 4411 system up in order to achieve that, but I assume you would prefer to try to do it yourself first. On the other hand, if you still insist on playing your preferred style, I can only wish you good luck :thup:

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6 minutes ago, Experienced Defender said:

I don't know what you expect from a team just promoted to an elite league such as the EPL. While there is room for improvement in your tactic overall, I think your first priority at the moment should be to try and secure survival in the league by keeping it tight in defense and simple in attack. Which means defending with 2 solid banks of four and trying to counter-attack quickly when you win the ball back. For a team of relatively low quality and reputation (relative to the league you compete in), playing any "fancy" kind of stuff is not a good idea IMHO.

Now, I can give you an example of how I would set the 4411 system up in order to achieve that, but I assume you would prefer to try to do it yourself first. On the other hand, if you still insist on playing your preferred style, I can only wish you good luck :thup:

I never said I wanted to play fancy but I take that as my TI's suggest otherwise. I would like to hear how you'd set up. 

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3 hours ago, djpdavey said:

We are constantly stuck in our own half no matter what I do the players don't seem to be able to string a pass together anymore.

You have two playmakers in midfield dropping to collect the ball.  Are your defenders unable to get the ball to them because of there ball skills or the midfielders unable to get open?

If the playmakers get the ball are they unable to turn and play forward or have no options?  If the right side is used to transition then your left will likely be very deep and unable to catch up with the winger and forwards. The LB wont give width until later so might lack space inside for the AMs runs.

If just promoted I'd be worried having 2 of 4 midfielders as playmakers as I'd expect them to be better with the ball than without.  Especially if the FB on that side is a good attacking player so also likely to not be great defensively to cover for the playmakers.

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2 hours ago, djpdavey said:

I would like to hear how you'd set up

Okay, as I said, with a team like yours I would aim for compact defense and fast attacking transitions once we win the ball. Which, translated into FM and using the 4411 formation, would basically come down to something like this:

DLFat

SS/AMat

IWsu   DLPsu  BBM/CMsu  WMsu

FBat        CDde      CDde       FBsu

GK/SKde

I intentionally made as few tweaks to your original setup as possible. 

If you want to keep playing on the Positive mentality - which is always a very important factor to take into account when creating a tactic - this would be my starting team instructions:

- nothing (sometimes hit early crosses and/or narrower width)

- counter, distribute to CBs and FBs and regroup

- standard DL, lower LOE and get stuck in (unless you notice your players are committing too many fouls and getting yellow cards)

So as I said, these would be starting instructions. Tweaks would be small and vary from situation to situation. 

But again, if you believe your team is good enough to play in a more control/possession-oriented manner, just ignore my suggestions :thup:

 

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1 hour ago, Experienced Defender said:

Okay, as I said, with a team like yours I would aim for compact defense and fast attacking transitions once we win the ball. Which, translated into FM and using the 4411 formation, would basically come down to something like this:

DLFat

SS/AMat

IWsu   DLPsu  BBM/CMsu  WMsu

FBat        CDde      CDde       FBsu

GK/SKde

I intentionally made as few tweaks to your original setup as possible. 

If you want to keep playing on the Positive mentality - which is always a very important factor to take into account when creating a tactic - this would be my starting team instructions:

- nothing (sometimes hit early crosses and/or narrower width)

- counter, distribute to CBs and FBs and regroup

- standard DL, lower LOE and get stuck in (unless you notice your players are committing too many fouls and getting yellow cards)

So as I said, these would be starting instructions. Tweaks would be small and vary from situation to situation. 

But again, if you believe your team is good enough to play in a more control/possession-oriented manner, just ignore my suggestions :thup:

 

I have followed your changes to the letter and it was chalk and cheese. We out played a few teams and created so many more chances and defended so much better. Thank you so much for helping me see clearly. I wasnt expecting to win all the games but was hoping to see much better performances which I did.

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I am going to throw it out there...you are playing a poor mans 4231 (4411) why not just play the 4231?

- A 4231 has 2 potential holding players in central midfield
- You don't need the backline to venture forward so fullbacks will do, so you can get the security of a 4 man backline with 2 in front of them.
- Your system can play with a low line of engagement and seek to hit teams on the break
- And it can also apply a lot of pressure on opposition backlines, taking early advantage of any side playing wingbacks on attack or fullbacks on attack.

I would probably only have one IF(A) and an AF and the rest of the roles duties would be on support.

You can still use your 4411, but you could have the 4231 too, which could be a more counter attacking variant, both your FBs are on support and you are basically relying on two roles to attack space - the AF/IF. In FM20 the IF is also a lot more attacking as a role than he was in FM19.


 

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11 hours ago, Rashidi said:

I am going to throw it out there...you are playing a poor mans 4231 (4411) why not just play the 4231?

We are a poor club lol.

I will try it out as another variant thanks.

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17 hours ago, Rashidi said:

I am going to throw it out there...you are playing a poor mans 4231 (4411) why not just play the 4231?

Why is the 4-4-1-1 a poor man’s version of a 4-2-3-1? That makes zero sense to me. I would even argue you have more options with a 4-4-1-1 than a 4-2-3-1. 

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@Rashidi

I've think 4-2-3-1 is very different to 4-4-1-1.

Its very top heavy and I've found you generally need better players to have sucxess with it.

It asks a lot of the two centre midfielders.

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In attack the 4411 will morph into a 4231 and they can both defend the same way dependin on the roles and duties u have selected, which is why a lot of people call the 4411 “the poor mans” 4231.

Plus the 4231 isn’t that hard to pull off in the game. You are right you need to good centre mids m, otherwise it’s a pretty straightforwArd system to set up.

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2 hours ago, Gegenklaus said:

Why is the 4-4-1-1 a poor man’s version of a 4-2-3-1? That makes zero sense to me. I would even argue you have more options with a 4-4-1-1 than a 4-2-3-1. 

This is a common issue a lot of players have with the game. You need to think of the team with and without the ball. For example, in attack what does the system look like? 

Take a 415, which is one of my favourite systems it plays with 4 at the back with one DM and 3AMs and 2 strikers. In attack it plays like a 235 in defence it plays like a wide 4132.

The 4411 depending on the roles and duties you have selected can play in a lot of different ways, in attack it can resemble the 4231 yet do most of its defending in its own third, while the 4231 can defend like the 4411 but do most of its defending in the middle third. Essentially its about how the roles and duties change in the transitions 

Here i have a 343 moving the ball from defence to attack, note how we look through each phase, playing from right to left.

343a.thumb.jpg.c0693d91f0abb082b2cc3178a3163b28.jpg

Once we are in the opposition third, our attacking shape is dictated by roles/duties, width

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When we are defending i am not defending like a 343, I am defending in a 5 1 shape.

1591003525_343defend.thumb.jpg.4a01408f8762e2290c4f2e15b050ef64.jpg

Now note what the WM on the left flank has done, I have been able to create a "pivot" defence, where one player goes out to close the ball carrier down while the rest hold their positions, there are meant to be 3 strikers up front and its given me an interesting little shape with the roles i have selected which are also influenced by some of the player traits.

343.thumb.jpg.cdb74aef227f3738e015e77d9ec9a110.jpg

This is the formation i am using, we can defend in a 5 with the right roles and duties.

Now the same applies to the 4411.  In attack the two wingers will move up into attack, their duties will also cause them to drop back and form two banks of 4 in defence. 

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42312.thumb.jpg.7226762f02f3da79867dacc0db2636a1.jpg

The same happens in a 4231 when you choose support duties. While the burden of holding the middle may be higher in a 4231, you have to remember that to get really good attacks going in a 4411, you need to commit the two fullbacks. You don't need to do that with a 4231, in fact as underdogs its even better to use the 4231, because you can hold the backline back in a support configuration and use a CF(A), iF(A) combination and then you have yourselves a system that defends in 2 banks of 4 but only commits limited resources to the counter. It is still dangerous enough to force wingbacks to stay pinned.  

It's important to understand how roles and duties work together in different phases of play.  The reason why its called a poor mans 4231, is simple:

Most sides who opt to go 4411, think they aren't good enough to win the midfield battle, they want to either ping the ball forward to 2 boys up top or try to play like a 4231 by pushing the wingers forward. In attack it can be a poor imitation of a 4231, in order for it dominate and control matches its gotta commit at least one fullback.

 

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You can defend high in a 4-4-1-1. And what you are saying is that if you want to defend in 2 banks of four, the two wingers in a 4-2-3-1 has to be on support duty. That isnt needed in a 4-4-1–1 where you get the natural defensive shape. And you dont have to commit any fullbacks more than you have to in a 4-2-3-1. That depends on your roles and duties and instructions. My whole purpose of challenging your description of 4-4-1-1 as being the poor man’s version of 4-2-3-1 was to say that a blank formation isnt better than any other formation without duties and roles selected. Actually i’m a big fan of deep formations as you can have a fantastic solid off the ball shape and a completely different one on the ball because you can “afford” your wingers being on attack duty. Whereas in the AM strata they act as wide strikers. 

The last segment of your post@ is exactly what in refering to. You think choosing s 4-4-1-1 means defensive counter football. I’m saying in a 4-4-1-1 with the right roles and duties selected, you can make that play like City’s 2-3-5 (and also defend like they do in 4-4-2/1-1ish. 

Edited by Gegenklaus

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