4231 - difficult to win (need advice on changes)

[Novem9]

I have a moments and statistics advantage, but some problems with results, especially against topteams.
There are no specific ideas in tactic, I just want to create 4231 with CAM for diversity

Any advises please and many thanks in advancw

[energumene]

Maybe try something a bit less agressive against top teams ? You have a very good team, but not the best comparing to Liverpool City or Tottenham, since these are the games you struggle to win... You could remove the counter-press when you play against them, for example. Also, having Positive mentality + Higher LOE + More urgent pressing is maybe a little too agressive when you play against better sides, especially when you're away. Or at least you can keep these TIs but try to change your formation for something a little bit more solid, like a 433 with a DM and wingers ?

Also, can you explain why you tick TIs such as "Defend Narrower" and "Fairly narrow ?"

Apart from that I don't see anything wrong with your set up... only maybe you lack one or two attack duty ? Your right side is not very attacking, for example. Maybe your offensive moves are often coming from the left side so your style becomes predictable ? I dunno, just some thoughts. 

Maybe you should post a screen of your results so far with this set up. 

EDIT : Also, you say you have no specific idea for your tactic, which is maybe the main issue : if you don't know what kind of football you want to play, who will ? But even if you say so, I'm sure you have some ideas behind some of your TIs and roles choices, right ?

 

Edited January 23, 2020 by energumene

[Novem9]

2 часа назад, energumene сказал:

433 with a DM and wingers ?

One of reason I started to create 4231 - I already have solid 4141 wide (433 dm as you said) so I want something new for Chelsea save  But looks like you are right - I can beat 6-0 some club like Sheffield Utd but have some troubles in Lpool. It is something like challenge to adapt without formation changes.

2 часа назад, energumene сказал:

Also, can you explain why you tick TIs such as "Defend Narrower" and "Fairly narrow ?"

 

I feel some discomfort without DM so want to my CB play closer to hold this zone. Compact of defense I mean

Fairly narrow - when they play narrow, it more quickly to use pressing because they closer. I'm not sure about its work like this but I use this in this reason 

2 часа назад, energumene сказал:

I'm sure you have some ideas behind some of your TIs and roles choices, right ?

Well its a timekiller in waiting of patch 20.3 at first  Concerning this tactic - as I said I want to create something stable with CAM (I played 5212 already and want to create 4231 which honestly I dont feel as 4141 for example).
I checked few variations, for example BWM(d)-RPM in the middle or BBM-CAR and AP(a) in CAM zone (for sure other roles were adapted too). But it started to be look for me like 4231 is very specific tactic and slightly outdated for modern times  

In the end I realized the most understable thing for me - is DLP in middleline. All other things have risen from this point. 

About right FB looks logic  I noticed this too but my logic was like 'I can win lower teams in this, but I have problems with bigger teams. So I need to watch my risks', something like this (Really difficultly to explain clear in foreign language for me, unfortunatelly)

[Experienced Defender]

4 hours ago, Novem9 said:

Insufficient support in attack from the right side (you have a holding CM and a fairly conservative fullback role). 

Poor vertical compactness due to the distance between DL and LOE coupled with a top-heavy formation.

Forwards probably struggling to find space due to the high LOE (plus the Prevent short GKD).

The lone striker might struggle in the CF role in a top-heavy system, because CF needs more space to operate than simpler roles. 

Pass into space makes little sense - neither you create the space through your tactic, nor are opponents likely to give you that space given that you are a top team (Chelsea). 

The narrower width is further limiting your options when playing against defensive opposition. 

[energumene]

Il y a 12 heures, Novem9 a dit :

About right FB looks logic  I noticed this too but my logic was like 'I can win lower teams in this, but I have problems with bigger teams. So I need to watch my risks', something like this (Really difficultly to explain clear in foreign language for me, unfortunatelly)

Yeah i got your point, don't worry (i'm not english native speaking either) !  But you know, it is all a matter of balance. It's a pity you don't really use your right side when attacking, because even if it covers your defence a little bit better, it does it in an "overkilling way" as some say on this forum, needlessly let's say, and of course, it weakens your offensive moves. Better sides than yours are not only better at attacking but also at defending, so if you don't involve enough lads up the field you won't be able to give em enough trouble.

I think that you should first follow the advices @Experienced Defender gave you. Strenghten your right side (we are OK about this, so it's a good point to start !  ), see if it has any impact on your offensive moves against Big 4/5. Consider having a better compactness to allow less space for these opponents when you play against them, especially space in the middle since you have only two central midfielders. 

And also consider removing the narrow width instructions, it may be a good thing to stretch out the opposition in order to create some space, may it be against strong sides or underdogs who restrict space in defence.

Edited January 23, 2020 by energumene

[Novem9]

7 минут назад, energumene сказал:

Consider having a better compactness

Do you mean use LOE lower? or *possibly* use DL higher?

[Novem9]

Oh yeah! In first impression it looks much better (and results too, I beat Liverpool 3-1 for example in equal chances)

I know that W(a) slightly contrary for @Experienced Defender guide about 4231, but looks like this is good in context - FB is more teammate and careful role than WB and DLP(d) cover so I use 3 attacking duties in attacking group

Thank you both!  

[Experienced Defender]

3 hours ago, Novem9 said:

I was not actually talking about putting both FB and winger on attack duties, but if it works for you, then never mind.

[energumene]

Il y a 23 heures, Novem9 a dit :

Oh yeah! In first impression it looks much better (and results too, I beat Liverpool 3-1 for example in equal chances)

I know that W(a) slightly contrary for @Experienced Defender guide about 4231, but looks like this is good in context - FB is more teammate and careful role than WB and DLP(d) cover so I use 3 attacking duties in attacking group

Thank you both!  

Looks like you've fixed it ! Bravo !  As @Experienced Defender said, be careful with having both right sided players on attack duty, it's a little bit risky. For now it works but you have a pretty agressive set up considering the Positive, the higher defensive line and pressing, the 4 attack duties and an "agressive" role such as BBM in the middle.

But since it works, well, congrats !  

[Novem9]

4 часа назад, energumene сказал:

For now it works but you have a pretty agressive set up considering the Positive, the higher defensive line and pressing, the 4 attack duties and an "agressive" role such as BBM in the middle.

Clarify me please - I'm using higher DL because I have no DM and want to have more vertical compactness. Is it how it works or I'm has wrong understanding?

In this way if I change W(a) -> W(s) and BBM -> CM(s) which will add PI 'hold position'? Or maybe you can give me direct advise how to stabilize this excess risk? 

 

4 часа назад, energumene сказал:

and pressing

I always hear about risk to use pressure in positive mentality. This thing confusing me because looks like teams who play possession use pressing even against big teams too?

 

upd - But I noticed that 'counter-press' (in-transition menu) create some problems for me in this tactic. In fact its clear why but looks like I have a stereotype about 'counter-press' is musthave option for winning  

Edited January 24, 2020 by Novem9

[energumene]

Le 24/01/2020 à 06:43, Novem9 a dit :

Clarify me please - I'm using higher DL because I have no DM and want to have more vertical compactness. Is it how it works or I'm has wrong understanding?

In this way if I change W(a) -> W(s) and BBM -> CM(s) which will add PI 'hold position'? Or maybe you can give me direct advise how to stabilize this excess risk? 

By this I mean your defensive cover is minimum, so if you are high up the pitch, and lose the ball, you have the least protection required in this situation, plus you don't regroup so you're pretty exposed. But you have strong quality players, so these errors up the pitch will be rare in my opinion.    I'm not really talking about your vertical compactness.

But if you ask, concerning your vertical compatness, I am not a specialist but... What I think - maybe I'm wrong - is that as Chelsea, you don't really need to think about being compact because you'll have most the ball during almost every game.

Think about being compact only when you play better sides. And in your case, I don't think vertical compactness is optimum in this set up since you have a wandering midfield (BBM + AM At), agressive forwards and FBs (both, even if the left one is on support duty, I guess Marcos Alonso has some agressive PPM right ?). Combined with more urgent pressing you'll often disrupt your defensive shape and eventually, not be quite compact, imho...

So yes basically you have the Higher D Line which increases compactness in this particular 4231 set up, but it also leaves more space behind your defence and against fast forwards like Mané, Salah, or Son, or Aguero, etc... Maybe it's a bit risky imho. But you'll only know it by playing with this set-up. This is only theory,and as a matter of fact, you won against the Reds so go on with it and see what happens dude !

And concerning pressing and mentality, Mentality doesn't always correspond to what style you play. I mean, you can play possession with Cautious or Defensive mentality, and counter-attacking with Positive or Attacking. What I mean by that is that big sides applying pressing, even against big sides, maybe apply agressive pressing but, translating to FM language, this doesn't mean these teams play on a higher Mentality such as Positive or Attacking. Do you get what I mean ?  

So with Positive Mentality, which increases all of your players mentality in theory (so the risk/reward ratio is weakened, lets say 30%) and also impacts your team instructions, and with More urgent pressing : firstly, your pressing is naturally increased, and your players do it more agressively because they takes more risks in their behaviour, they tackles more so they risk to let your defence exposed if they are beaten by their opponent with the ball... secondly, you instructs them to apply even more pressing than they already do. So it's like everybody is pressing. It can work, you can choke the opponent, but it's risky. Do you want to take the risk ? Is your side strong enough ? You'll be rewarded in most case imho, but you could suffer some issues some times, defensively speaking.

 

Edited January 25, 2020 by energumene

[Novem9]

В 25.01.2020 в 14:32, energumene сказал:

By this I mean your defensive cover is minimum, so if you are high up the pitch, and lose the ball, you have the least protection required in this situation, plus you don't regroup so you're pretty exposed. But you have strong quality players, so these errors up the pitch will be rare in my opinion.    I'm not really talking about your vertical compactness.

But if you ask, concerning your vertical compatness, I am not a specialist but... What I think - maybe I'm wrong - is that as Chelsea, you don't really need to think about being compact because you'll have most the ball during almost every game.

Think about being compact only when you play better sides. And in your case, I don't think vertical compactness is optimum in this set up since you have a wandering midfield (BBM + AM At), agressive forwards and FBs (both, even if the left one is on support duty, I guess Marcos Alonso has some agressive PPM right ?). Combined with more urgent pressing you'll often disrupt your defensive shape and eventually, not be quite compact, imho...

So yes basically you have the Higher D Line which increases compactness in this particular 4231 set up, but it also leaves more space behind your defence and against fast forwards like Mané, Salah, or Son, or Aguero, etc... Maybe it's a bit risky imho. But you'll only know it by playing with this set-up. This is only theory,and as a matter of fact, you won against the Reds so go on with it and see what happens dude !

And concerning pressing and mentality, Mentality doesn't always correspond to what style you play. I mean, you can play possession with Cautious or Defensive mentality, and counter-attacking with Positive or Attacking. What I mean by that is that big sides applying pressing, even against big sides, maybe apply agressive pressing but, translating to FM language, this doesn't mean these teams play on a higher Mentality such as Positive or Attacking. Do you get what I mean ?  

So with Positive Mentality, which increases all of your players mentality in theory (so the risk/reward ratio is weakened, lets say 30%) and also impacts your team instructions, and with More urgent pressing : firstly, your pressing is naturally increased, and your players do it more agressively because they takes more risks in their behaviour, they tackles more so they risk to let your defence exposed if they are beaten by their opponent with the ball... secondly, you instructs them to apply even more pressing than they already do. So it's like everybody is pressing. It can work, you can choke the opponent, but it's risky. Do you want to take the risk ? Is your side strong enough ? You'll be rewarded in most case imho, but you could suffer some issues some times, defensively speaking.

 

Thank you  yeah it looks that I still have some mistakes of mentality understanding despite have some success and some tactical knowledge 

I selected 4231 and 5212 (dont ask me why ) as my priority for FM20. Anyway I switched both of them for balanced mentality, correct some things and this is looks better and play stronger. Positive mentality after our talks and this experience looks for me adventurous tool.

before I believed this is mandatory thing for domination. In fact my balanced 4231 more accented for game control and I realize why it happends. But stereotype about mentalities covered my eyes u know  I heared all this things before but didnt realize until this

 

[energumene]

Il y a 9 heures, Novem9 a dit :

Thank you  yeah it looks that I still have some mistakes of mentality understanding despite have some success and some tactical knowledge 

Actually, how Mentality works is pretty simple. Just keep these two things in mind :

- Firstly, your team Mentality determines the risk/reward ratio for every one of your players on the field, so the much risky you play (from Defensive to Attacking, dont coun't the two extremes, they are situational imho) the less rewarded you are, the more you'll miss passes, shots, dribbles. And the more offensive are the tasks of your players, then, the even more risky they play. BUT, this doesn't mean you won't BE rewarded. This heavily relies with what players you have in your team. Are they good enough ? Are they skillful ? Are they mentally solid ? Are they worldclass players ? The better the players are, the better the team is, the more risky the team Mentality can be because they will be able to cope with that. This DOESN'T mean you HAVE TO play with very high mentality if you are Barcelona, Real Madrid or Liverpool... BUT, remember, what you want to do is to match with your board objective, to be coherent with your team reputation. If you don't play risky against strong underdogs side, who set up with 5 defenders formation or with heavy-bottom 4141, you'll have difficulties to break them down. Since they willingly give you the ball, it means they assume you're the strongest side of the two, and against a very defensive side, a bus sometimes, you can't really play on too much low mentality because your player may be not risky enough in their behaviour. 

- Secondly, Mentality impacts your Team Instructions. Just change it level by level and see how it affects your TIs. On the ball, the more positive the mentality is, the wider, the faster, the shorter, and of course, the riskier, you play with the ball ; off the ball, the more positive the mentality is, the higher you play up the field, the more urgent your pressing is, the higher is your LOE, the more agressive your players defend... I think you have already realized that ingame, so I won't take more time on it.

So if you think you struggle with the Mentality mechanics, just remember these two major points, and then, chose how you want to balanc the risk/reward ratio (with the team Mentality and ALSO with the players tasks, of course) and the Team instructions. The good thing is you can manually alter your TIs if it doesn't match with what you want. 

Of course, success doesn't only rely on your Team mentality/player's quality matching. You can have the world best team, playing on terrifying Attacking duty, if your roles and duties set-up is not balanced, doesn't have much sense, you'll have difficulties. 

Citation

I selected 4231 and 5212 (dont ask me why ) as my priority for FM20. Anyway I switched both of them for balanced mentality, correct some things and this is looks better and play stronger. Positive mentality after our talks and this experience looks for me adventurous tool.

This shows it always a good thing to keep some balance. Basically, Standard mentality deals with 50% risk/reward ratio, it's a bit like not chosing to put emphasis on attack or on defense, you just don't chose, you keep things opened...

You can alter this in some extent, after all you have a strong team so you can take more risks some times. But you have the TIs to do that, you don't necessarily have to increase your Team mentality. Personally I never use more than Standard mentality, maybe it's a mistake, or a misunderstanding, but it's a just a personal choice.  

And let me say that imho I think it's a good thing to always have two different formations to play with. Because 4231 is a top-heavy formation for the best sides of the league, but sometimes when you face better sides you can chose to play a little bit more defensively, not by tweaking all of your TIs but by setting up a more solid formation - for example your 5 defenders formation. You can target the main of your opponent strenghts and chose a formation to cope with that - imagine they play with a Riquelmesque number 10, you can choose to switch from 4231 to 433 in order to neutralize him. You'll play more safely without ruining the overall game strategy. 

Citation

before I believed this is mandatory thing for domination. In fact my balanced 4231 more accented for game control and I realize why it happends. But stereotype about mentalities covered my eyes u know  I heared all this things before but didnt realize until this

It's great you see concrete changes in game with your tweaks. FM is a never-ending journey, nobody really totally control this game - apart of the devs maybe ^^-, we always learn, game after game, save after save...  

Edited January 26, 2020 by energumene

[Mitja]

On 23/01/2020 at 16:17, Novem9 said:

One of reason I started to create 4231 - I already have solid 4141 wide (433 dm as you said) so I want something new for Chelsea save  But looks like you are right - I can beat 6-0 some club like Sheffield Utd but have some troubles in Lpool. It is something like challenge to adapt without formation changes.

 

Ideally you would want at least three proper tactics which are trained well. One counter-attacking, one balanced and one out and out attacking.

[Experienced Defender]

@sverige91 I deleted your comment for being irrelevant to the topic. If you cannot help the OP with constructive tactical advice, then better abstain from commenting. 

If you think there is a problem with the ME or patch or anything like that, there is a relevant (sub)forum, which is not this one.

Thanks!

[Den1ss]

@Novem9

For balance you might wanna combine 1 attack and 1 support duty on each flank ( FB and Wing ).

In your case for example you can do RB sup + W att and LB att + IF sup and then switch the places of the DLP and BBM, and also you can try to put the striker on att and the AMC on sup, that way you can keep 4 men midfield for more stability because the Winger wont help so much in defence.

Another way is to have both full backs on attack and both flanks on support, keeping the AMC att and striker supp, it becomes a more attacking version of 4 4 1 1 and I find it very effective