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1 hour ago, Mitja said:

Sorry have no idea what you mean. You contradict your words. If there's one good thing about that ME it's central play, especially around the box. Was 17 really that good? No probably not. 

I thought it was pretty obvious. Central attacking play beat the opposition because the defence in the middle was rubbish, not because the central attackers gave the impression of any realistic skill or decision making.

 

2 hours ago, noikeee said:

I've seen people effectively do the equivalent of that (instant result button every game) with every version of the game... hardly unique to '17.

I'm playing FM17 and IMO the only major flaws are poor defending of the central area as defenders are lured wide too easily, an AI that is a bit dumb leaving itself too open when going forward, and overly effective runs from deep. However it feels superior in terms of passing decisions, player movement off the ball, and more realistic finishing accuracy mapping to each area of the pitch.

Agree that all FM including the latest version is susceptible to some sort of plug and play tactic and probably should be, though FM17s level of dominance if you actually watch games with a super tactic was unusual

Not difficult to feel superior in terms of passing decisions and player movement off the ball when the opposition don't press much and three, sometimes four of their players make no defensive contribution no matter how long you keep the ball for. The one-on-one finishing was obviously better [as in, not broken] than non-beta FM20 but the first thing I'd do was turn long shots off for every player and I found the conversion rates from narrow angles with poor finishing ability weirdly high

Edited by enigmatic

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2 hours ago, KUBI said:

Which kind of software is perfect after the release? Some are never updated others constantly. Please compare it with other games and not with vacuum cleaners or even worse CARS. :)

I will be very honest here. If we are talking about taking all emotions out (so that we do not just vent) when we judge FM20 or any other game, it does not matter how many times you update the software as long as you get it wrong or cannot fix what's broken (or more accurately, if you are not fixing what your customer thinks wrong with your product) . FYI, I am NOT judging SI, FM or any specific game or developer here, I am talking in general. However, I dont think it is not acceptable to release product worse than the previous one. No customer needs to compare to decide the value of a product or service, comparison only proves product A is better than product B. However, that does not mean product A is great product, it very well can be the best of the worst. Therefore, I suggest to all Mods instead of hanging on what analogy people use, focus on what they are trying to say. After all, most of us pay the asking price for the game without negotiating it based on the state of the product :)

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vor 6 Minuten schrieb wolbeas:

ITherefore, I suggest to all Mods instead of hanging on what analogy people use, focus on what they are trying to say. After all, most of us pay the asking price for the game without negotiating it based on the state of the product :)

The mods do not code the game.

But yes, all do focus on constructive critic and suggestions. Otherwise there wouldn't be a beta with improvements.

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11 minutes ago, KUBI said:

The mods do not code the game.

But yes, all do focus on constructive critic and suggestions. Otherwise there wouldn't be a beta with improvements.

I am aware they do not, What I mean to relay the information to the team that does, again without hanging up on what analogy is being used :)

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Looks like FM17 may be the way to go for the best/most stable ME from comments on this thread. Interesting.

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19 hours ago, akkm said:

This thing of that defence in middle was rubbish was the reason for central play giving impression of realistic skill or decision making is nonsense.

I played FM17 considerably more than the average player and hardly ever got the impression of realistic skill or decision making, particularly from the extra men in the middle. They mostly played simple passes which only worked because the opposition were so passive until eventually an overload happened, or the same sort of through balls from defence that worked too well in FM20 but only against high lines.  Few goals from distance, weird backheels as the only real flair movement and poor dribbling except of the 'knock ball past opponent' variety isn't a good representation of central play, and nor is shadow strikers exchanging unchallenged passes with a DLP until one of the defenders falls asleep for long enough to create a pocket of space. I guess I did have a newgen roaming playmaker I really liked the movement of once, but you can get players with his sorts of attributes to do pretty glorious things in FM20.

But yes, agreed it depends on tastes, and if you liked easy wins without bothering with any attacking play outside the width of the penalty area, FM17 was exceptional.

 

 

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3 minutes ago, enigmatic said:

I played FM17 considerably more than the average player and hardly ever got the impression of realistic skill or decision making, particularly from the extra men in the middle. They mostly played simple passes which only worked because the opposition were so passive until eventually an overload happened, or the same sort of through balls from defence that worked too well in FM20 but only against high lines.  Few goals from distance, weird backheels as the only real flair movement and poor dribbling except of the 'knock ball past opponent' variety isn't a good representation of central play, and nor is shadow strikers exchanging unchallenged passes with a DLP until one of the defenders falls asleep for long enough to create a pocket of space. I guess I did have a newgen roaming playmaker I really liked the movement of once, but you can get players with his sorts of attributes to do pretty glorious things in FM20.

But yes, agreed it depends on tastes, and if you liked easy wins without bothering with any attacking play outside the width of the penalty area, FM17 was exceptional.

 

 

yeah but your impression is factually incorrect...it's literally that simple. If you want to see for yourself...do that exercise I talked about, If you don't then no need...just keep drawing the wrong conclusion about fm17 and the last two iterations then

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This could be put to the test some, perhaps, btw.

6 hours ago, enigmatic said:

I played FM17 considerably more than the average player and hardly ever got the impression of realistic skill or decision making, particularly from the extra men in the middle. They mostly played simple passes which only worked because the opposition were so passive until eventually an overload happened

 

 


Instruct both your wide backs as well your right and left midfielders to specifically man mark the opposition wide midfielders on FM20. Each pairing marking the same guy on the same flank respectively -- e.g. LB / LM marking the Opposition RM*. They should be taken roughly as much out of the picture centrally as the wide mids were on FM17, never much covering central spaces, always leaving a man open until eventually guys were dragged out of shape and central passing lanes as well as running paths are bust wide open.

 

* Several guys marking the same guy is still doable, such as here tons of guys instructed to mark a specific Opposition centre back

Edited by Svenc

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I played a couple of games both on 17 and 20 so I can compare them. It's huge difference and improvements in 20. But unfortunatly everything good about it is hidden somewhere on balanced mentalities and low tempo tactics. Football is sooooo rushed and dependent to running with ball in the moment you play on higher mentality/tempo. 17 was much more balanced here. Same tactic you move from positive to attacking, it's night and day. As I said I think there's very good ME hidden somewhere obstructed by unrealistic and extreme football that doesn't exist irl. Football is a game of passing it's not american football or rugby. I think if 20.2.6 ME hurry in play was reduced, defending improved to reduce shots numbers and then improve finsishing depending on quality of chance and player ability that ME would be quite close to awsome. And I also believe narrow defending causes a lot of issues and how play is channeled to the flanks. For example there's absolutely to need for narrow defense in 532 or 541 formations I'm amazed how devs don't see it.  

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10 hours ago, akkm said:

yeah but your impression is factually incorrect...it's literally that simple. If you want to see for yourself...do that exercise I talked about, If you don't then no need...just keep drawing the wrong conclusion about fm17 and the last two iterations then

I'm sorry, but you've had offered absolutely no comment of any of the key elements of central play that were absent from FM17 except 'do weird experiment that has no resemblance to football'. How the hell is that going to make skill-based dribbling and shooting in FM17 better?

The results from your bizarre idea of playing everyone in wide positions is the opposition scores a lot of goals, although unlike the ridiculous FM17 defending, wide players step inside to cover the middle rather than continuing to leave a massive gap. Which proves absolutely nothing, unless your idea of a realistic football simulation involves a guard of honour for players jogging unopposed through the middle of the pitch. 

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17 minutes ago, Mitja said:

I played a couple of games both on 17 and 20 so I can compare them. It's huge difference and improvements in 20. But unfortunatly everything good about it is hidden somewhere on balanced mentalities and low tempo tactics. Football is sooooo rushed and dependent to running with ball in the moment you play on higher mentality/tempo. 17 was much more balanced here. Same tactic you move from positive to attacking, it's night and day. As I said I think there's very good ME hidden somewhere obstructed by unrealistic and extreme football that doesn't exist irl. Football is a game of passing it's not american football or rugby. I think if 20.2.6 ME hurry in play was reduced, defending improved to reduce shots numbers and then improve finsishing depending on quality of chance and player ability that ME would be quite close to awsome. And I also believe narrow defending causes a lot of issues and how play is channeled to the flanks. For example there's absolutely to need for narrow defense in 532 or 541 formations I'm amazed how devs don't see it.  

 

The narrow defence trend started back in FM19 and YES, thats why we have the play channeled through the flanks all the time. It is a chore to even watch it. I don't know how anyone can look at that ME (FM19 and FM20) and say "Yep, this is how football looks" ...

Edited by SebastianRO

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On 22/01/2020 at 11:46, SebastianRO said:

 

The narrow defence trend started back in FM19 and YES, thats why we have the play channeled through the flanks all the time. It is a chore to even watch it. I don't know how anyone can look at that ME (FM19 and FM20) and say "Yep, this is how football looks" ...

Totally unnessesary addition or poorly implemented imho. Especially noticable in narrow 532 where sometimes you can see 5 defenders in line marking one striker but nobody on 4 players on the flanks. :mad:

It would make more sense in 532 to defend wider given it's disadvantage on flanks, it shouldn't be too hard to fix I guess.. 

Edited by Mitja

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Unfortuantely devs don't seem to perceive it as a problem, evethough it was discussed a lot in fm19 and was identified as major thing contributing to poor attacking play and channeling to the flanks. Do teams defend narrow irl? Do they defend like this? To illustrate issue a little:

2020-01-20_19-45-20.jpg

 

Edited by Mitja

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On 21/01/2020 at 01:15, KUBI said:

The mods do not code the game.

But yes, all do focus on constructive critic and suggestions. Otherwise there wouldn't be a beta with improvements.

Improvements? 

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Since there are errors in the ME of FM17, FM19 and FM20 like shown here and until now with FM18 it was only said "is not worth it", I got myself the FM18 and am curious how the ME plays there -> one thing I know anyway: I will not get an FM after FM20 before March or April or not at all, should SI not manage to "save" the ME of FM20.

Edited by ProfessionalTD

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Glitches. Any ME has glitches, anyway if you like variety and solidity then boot up FM17, if you like nice graphics and a better defensive phase boot up FM20 but remember that this iteration require ME exploiting, that's why you see around tactics with same team instructions, formations, etc. I surrendered and did my personal (yay :kriss:) exploiting tactic, that's doing well... but I wont change it to try new styles of play like I did with FM17 (tinkered with FM20 match engine initially, but the game is so weak in terms of predictability that you are going to ruin your whole season because of random events if you get 'creative'), where I played with 2/3 forwards (not attackers, forwards), 3/4/5 defenders, etc. With FM2020 you need to play like developers expect (especially focusing on wings play), that's it. It's less simulative and more arcadey but it sports a more mature environment (transfer market, AI assistance, etc.), and anyway it's difficult to go back to that old graphics setting. Well, to be fair even FM17 did require wings play (especially with full backs), still the ME was far stronger in the middle of the field (well, DM was overpowered but all in all...). With FM17 the ME was so solid and balanced that you could have avoided team instructions at all.

If you avoid top leagues you can actually have some fun (except for the random events that will make you crazy from time to time).

OT: FM20 it's more mature, albeit unbalanced, fat and slow and with an ugly 'english tragedy' GUI (but you can replace that skin with Heffeim v1.6 that is cool, colored, etc.), random events will make you crazy but can be (somewhat) kept at bay by exploiting the ME. You can be 'creative' until you reach top leagues, so, eventually can avoid completely top leagues to play your beloved tactics (I did played successfully with just 3 DC and without WB or FB up to Serie B/Championship leagues).

 

Edited by Tetsuro P12
Unnecessary comment

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On 23/01/2020 at 11:01, Tetsuro P12 said:

With FM17 the ME was so solid and balanced that you could have avoided team instructions at all.

legendary remark :D

Edited by Mitja

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@Tetsuro P12  I have edited out the last completely unnecessary sentence of your post- if you continue to post in this manner, your posting rights will be withdrawn

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1 hour ago, FrazT said:

@Tetsuro P12  I have edited out the last completely unnecessary sentence of your post- if you continue to post in this manner, your posting rights will be withdrawn

It's not that if you underline a trait of italian's culture/behavior/appearance/country we (italians) would get offended (not even 'mandolin/pizza/mafia'). I'm actually offended by your need of censorship without any particular need, and the subsequent lack of debate. You built your language around our letters and words but definitely didn't built your behaviour around ours (serene and open one; well it took a lot to us too, we needed to confront with many cultures/philisophies/etc., and still there are lot of conflicts, still I would not exchange us with no one).

See? 'Completely unnecessary', not 'harmful'. Anyway I accept that censorship/rigid state (I accept others natures). If you need to kill opinions, individuals and persons, do it as you please (I'm defenseless, and anyway tired enough of being threatened).

Edited by Tetsuro P12

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5 hours ago, Mitja said:

legendary remark :D

I'm pretty sure he has an intersting idea/opinion of what an actual "ME exploit" is. I'd love to hear it actually, but it will likely drastically differ from what's been refered to as an exploit ever since the mighty Diablo of yesteryore; -> e.g. draw a forward arrow from an AMC in between two Forwards, and he will bang in goals for fun as his runs won't be picked up proper by ME inherent buggy defending as the defenders would part like the sea. E.g. an exploit is a systematic abuse of an actual ME inherent (defending) flaw, which no AI Manager competition is coded to do; therefore, you wouldn't need to actually "exploit" a thing. You can. Same as you can win on any game by cheesing its code/AI until it all just falls apart, but that's a different matter.

Any release so far has had such exploitable flaws, and neither FM20, 19, 18, nor 12 is an exception. On no release whatsoever have you been ever required to take advantage of them. And as a purist outside of LOL saves I'd quit the game in disgust.

Edited by Svenc

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1 hour ago, Svenc said:

I'm pretty sure he has an intersting idea/opinion of what an actual "ME exploit" is. I'd love to hear it actually, but it will likely drastically differ from what's been refered to as an exploit ever since the mighty Diablo of yesteryore; -> e.g. draw a forward arrow from an AMC in between two Forwards, and he will bang in goals for fun as his runs won't be picked up proper by ME inherent buggy defending as the defenders would part like the sea. E.g. an exploit is a systematic abuse of an actual ME inherent (defending) flaw, which no AI Manager competition is coded to do; therefore, you wouldn't need to actually "exploit" a thing. You can. Same as you can win on any game by cheesing its code/AI until it all just falls apart, but that's a different matter.

Any release so far has had such exploitable flaws, and neither FM20, 19, 18, nor 12 is an exception. On no release whatsoever have you been ever required to take advantage of them. And as a purist outside of LOL saves I'd quit the game in disgust.

By english dictionary: 'to use something for our advantage'. So: the match engine is weak to wingers, you use wingers; the match engine is weak to a particular team instruction, you use it, even if you don't like how that affect your play (because you want to take advantage of that situation). Exploiting.

I wasn't required on anything with FM17, except maybe an higher defensive line and an offensive mentality (but those are a given in today's football, well... the whole 'mentality' thing doesn't sound 'football' at all), here I have to adopt many team instructions. If I play an opportunist play they take over, so I have to play risky, press all over and make all I can to mantain some good ball possession.

So you win leagues by playing with an opportunist behavior? I doubt it. I actually did, but I have been able to do it just in lower leagues. And it was fun (except for the 'you risk to draw too much and morale will kill your season').

With a balanced ME you should play as you want and win just for playing good (have better players, have a coherent tactic, have a cohesive team) instead of exploiting match engine weaknesses (because if you don't random events will be harder to overcome, those are something I notice in FM20 while not in FM17).

Edited by Tetsuro P12

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3 hours ago, Svenc said:

I'm pretty sure he has an intersting idea/opinion of what an actual "ME exploit" is. I'd love to hear it actually, but it will likely drastically differ from what's been refered to as an exploit ever since the mighty Diablo of yesteryore; -> e.g. draw a forward arrow from an AMC in between two Forwards, and he will bang in goals for fun as his runs won't be picked up proper by ME inherent buggy defending as the defenders would part like the sea. E.g. an exploit is a systematic abuse of an actual ME inherent (defending) flaw, which no AI Manager competition is coded to do; therefore, you wouldn't need to actually "exploit" a thing. You can. Same as you can win on any game by cheesing its code/AI until it all just falls apart, but that's a different matter.

Any release so far has had such exploitable flaws, and neither FM20, 19, 18, nor 12 is an exception. On no release whatsoever have you been ever required to take advantage of them. And as a purist outside of LOL saves I'd quit the game in disgust.

There's different levels of exploit as well. I mean, a lot of match engines have pretty standard formations that massively overperform relative to ordinary ones [direct 4-4-2 in this one, possession based football with at least one fullback inverted in the last one, pretty much anything with extra midfielders and play down the middle in 17 but especially anything with shadow strikers], and then there's blatant stuff like 'set piece bugs' that people on tactics forums discover. And at the other end of the scale, stuff that feels like exploits that you have to do just to get your players to behave normally, like setting man-marking on wide players that aren't coded to track back properly. 

I mean, I never knew there was such a formation as Diablo and lots of people getting excited about it, and independently came up with the forward arrow in the middle of a 5-3-2 that relied mostly on pinging the ball onto the heads of my tall players, because surely one of my three midfielders had to run into the box to support them...  But **** me, my central midfielder with dribbling ability seemed to overperform a lot and my team shouldn't have been winning the league...

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14 hours ago, Tetsuro P12 said:

So you win leagues by playing with an opportunist behavior? I doubt it.

I personally don't exploit for the reason that even EA's Fifa Manager would be a more advanced sim of football management then to me, and that's what I'm expecting of FM personally. Might as well play that. It's still a choice, mind. But you have to actually build a Squad proper first to consistently challenge that way…. a bit like Football, plus with top Teams at the start, there'd be literally no game to Play if actually man by man superior Squads are paired with an ME exploit. All you have to do is to press continue to advance time between matches, everything else is a placebo, substitutions included. (Admittedly, on a prior release I exploited what I would consider weak "Pressing" though -- it was far too easy to play Keep-ball when holding a lead, so months of in-game time without any oppositioin Comeback, or even Goal past the 75th Minute mark). :D 

Edited by Svenc

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26 minutes ago, Svenc said:

I personally don't exploit  for the reason that even EA's Fifa Manager is a more advanced sim of Football management then. Might as well play that. You have to actually build a Squad proper first to consistently challenge that way…. a bit like Football, plus with top Teams at the start, there'd be literally no game to Play if actually man by man superior Squads are paired with an ME exploit. All you have to do is to press continue to Advance time between Matches, everything else is a Placebo, substitutions included. (Admittedly, on a Prior release I exploited what I would consider weak "Pressing" though -- it was far too easy to Play Keep-ball when Holding a lead, so months of in-game time without any oppositioin Comeback, or even Goal past the 75th Minute mark). :D 

I don't know how you are competitive, then. Eventually your style of play match developers thinking, so you don't need to exploit anything because you do it implicitly. It's clear to me that the game take shortcuts to provide challenges to the players, and it's the part of FM I dislike more... especially with FM20, but I'm pretty accurate on everything (as a long time customer, and a former lead QA in another software house, many things for me are automatics), especially I do always a stellar transfer market, I overlook only training (but that is well managed by the AI) but I'm very fond on tactics, my players always play well (except for those shortcuts I was referring before) and are well positioned, but if SI ask the player to play aggressive and outnumber AI there is nothing a good tactic can do, because the ME is due to suffer specific situations, not all. Playing with low pressing, making a stronghold with the intention to counterattack is something not achievable, because the AI take ball possession, discourage opposition (players assailed often sweep the ball instead of play it to even near free players, and to show it I provided through a post a match recording deleted by mods), and before or later they will strike (you not, you'll sweep endlessly). That's in top leagues, in minor leagues it works.

Edited by Tetsuro P12

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On 24/01/2020 at 07:50, Svenc said:

(Admittedly, on a prior release I exploited what I would consider weak "Pressing" though -- it was far too easy to play Keep-ball when holding a lead, so months of in-game time without any oppositioin Comeback, or even Goal past the 75th Minute mark

Looks like it's back with beta. Really strange considering pressing worked really well before beta. This is one area where huge improvement is easily observed if comparing fm20 pressing to fm17.There was still room for improvement of course like the way how fullbacks retreat too deep too soon (even on max pressing settings) and don't engage to close down wingers on many occasions. It's an issue devs don't seem to perceive as problem eventhough it could improve realism in gameplay a lot, like open up space for counter attacking teams on flanks or improve possession for teams playing high press. I've reported this last year and it's ongoing issue at least since fm17.

On 24/01/2020 at 08:12, Tetsuro P12 said:

Playing with low pressing, making a stronghold with the intention to counterattack is something not achievable, because the AI take ball possession, discourage opposition (players assailed often sweep the ball instead of play it to even near free players, and to show it I provided through a post a match recording deleted by mods), and before or later they will strike (you not, you'll sweep endlessly)

 Posting ten extreme examples in bugs forum where players clear the ball instead of passing it to open team-mate shouldn't be that hard.  Play the game write down times when it happens, it should take some 5 to 10 to do it. 

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59 minutes ago, Mitja said:

Looks like it's back with beta. Really strange considering pressing worked really well before beta. This is one area where huge improvement is easily observed if comparing fm20 pressing to fm17.There was still room for improvement of course like the way how fullbacks retreat too deep too soon (even on max pressing settings) and don't engage to close down wingers on many occasions. It's an issue devs don't seem to perceive as problem eventhough it could improve realism in gameplay a lot, like open up space for counter attacking teams on flanks or improve possession for teams playing high press. I've reported this last year and it's ongoing issue at least since fm17.

 Posting ten extreme examples in bugs forum where players clear the ball instead of passing it to open team-mate shouldn't be that hard.  Play the game write down times when it happens, it should take some 5 to 10 to do it. 

I posted an entire match, being annihilited by a weaker formation with my players sweeping the balls. Mods deleted it (for improper language, I presume... still there were no profanities). While in another match I annihilited a far stronger team than me, it would have been funny to post all the two, same tactics but far different outcome (and completely unexpected; well... expected in current FM edition).

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On 24/01/2020 at 08:12, Tetsuro P12 said:

I don't know how you are competitive, then. 

By utilizing the same Tools the AI is given, however doing that more intelligently. The AI really can't read a match on a Micro-Level (like a real Manager would), and mainly makes decisions according to current scorelines. As a super simple example, whilst I may pick up on an aggressive wing back being caught ouf of position over and over again and make a judgement call whether it is worth the risk, the AI simply cycles through the gears according to a targeted scoreline. That wing back will push Forward for as Long as the AI Manager doesn't like the current scoreline. As a consequence, anything the AI can do on this game, a Player can do much better. This will remain for as Long as the game isn't coded for the tactical niche, which it never may be (or the gaps in between AI and Player are closed otherwise -- say by a reworked balance between Player Squad ability and tactics, etc.)

@Mitja I was refereing to much older Editions, where it was super super easy as there basically was no much of Pressing at all, in particular deeper on the pitch. :D In retro-spect I consider that as an exploit of an ME issue -- and the AI was given no Tools to Combat it to boot. Extremely easy to Keep the ball all match Long and if they don't have it, they can't score. :D 

Edited by Svenc

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