Advice please

[lewissmith2111]

I have been playing FM for a long time. I can't remember exactly when I started playing but it was the CM days with no 2d pitch. I've never been tactically astute as perhaps I should be after many years in playing the game...but I've never really asked for help either. Maybe the two are linked  .

I normally play with my beloved Birmingham City which can be fun and involving but at the same time I feel emotional attachment perhaps gets in the way with player choice, tactics, turning down job offers etc.

The reason for the post is I have recently been feeling slightly bored of FM from playing the usual gengenpress pre-set which yes isn't perfect but at the same time seems to do A job for most teams. I wasn't bored of winning because let me assure you that was not happening anywhere near enough to get boring. So I have moved away from managing the team I support in order to free myself up from the above and have a bit more fun with the game.

Ever since I have been old enough to watch and understand football I have been obsessed with italian football. The likes of Ancelotti's Milan diamond, De Rossi, Gattuso and especially the graceful Andrea Pirlo. I know his role and how it is interpreted in the game as a regista.

So I decided if I wasn't going to manage my team any more, then I'd like to at least try to create a system which revolves around my favourite player Pirlo. Now I know some teams I will manager will not have a player that is good enough for the role or sometimes the system might hold me back but I want to enjoy watching the game and enjoy the regista (attempting to) pull the strings.

The problem I seem to be getting most is teams are dominating possession against me and seem to be pinning me in my own box regardless of LOE & DL. Now I could always try and set up a counter attacking system to take advantage of this but its not what I'm looking for.

I've tried to keep it simple by not adding any TI's and only adding some if I feel they are needed. This is where the problems begin for me. Player roles & duties clearly play a huge part in the game now but again I struggle to determine why roles do or don't actually work within the big picture. There are some people in these forums and elsewhere who clearly have a gift for this.

In short I just need some guidance to help me get nearer to where I want to be.

 

[Experienced Defender]

On 18/01/2020 at 23:21, lewissmith2111 said:

Given that I don't know your team, I can only tell you what tweaks you could/should consider if you want to play in a system that employs a regista (assuming you have a suitable player for this demanding PM role).

First, given that the regista is neither a holding nor generally defense-minded DM role, you need to make sure there is enough defensive protection/cover around him. You have a relatively conservative fullback on the right flank (FBsu) and a carrilero in MCR, which are roles that can offer decent protection. However, you play both of them on the same side. Therefore, I would first move the carrilero to the MCL spot, especially as you have an attacking fullback in DL, who the carrilero should cover for (more so than a CM on support). 

Now, after this tweak, your setup looks like this:

DLFsu

IFsu                                 Wat

CAR    CMsu

REG

FBat    CDde   CDde    FBsu

GK

The next thing is - the regista is a pretty much adventurous and forward-thinking type of playmaker (as opposed to the DLP), which means he tends to play in a more direct manner and is looking for every opportunity to execute a decisive killer or any long-ish pass that can potentially lead to a chance. Therefore, this type of PM is not really suitable for a slow, patient (and IMHO boring) possession styles that often insist on possession for the sake of it. 

This means 2 things:

1. you need more attacking penetration from the midfield, so that the regista would have more opportunities to play his favorite killer and long passes;

2. the "hold shape" instructions does not make much (if any) sense

Now, if my above suggestions gave you some food for thought, I'd like to see how you would set up the tactic after this.

Then we can discuss it further.

 

 

[lewissmith2111]

14 hours ago, Experienced Defender said:

Now, if my above suggestions gave you some food for thought, I'd like to see how you would set up the tactic after this.

Then we can discuss it further.

 

 

Hi @Experienced Defender

 

Thanks for the reply, appreciate it.

Unfortunatley the save file for the screenshot I posted was corrupted (crash dump?) So I started a new save with Levante. If you don't mind could take a look at this one instead please?

 

 

This setup is not too different to the one above and was created before reading your post. 

The reasons for the TI's are:

POD - to try and get the regista involved in the build up from the back to get him on the ball asap.

WBIB - to try and keep the ball a bit better in the final third but now looking at my front 3 roles and duties they are probably going to ignore this and go off and try to score/cross maybe?

Dist to CB & FB - same reasoning as the POD above.

Counter press - To try and win the ball back higher because if we do the regista will be utilised alot more effectively if we can win it higher up the pitch.

Higher DL & Higher LOE - same as above but then again might be overkill.

 

Going back to your initial observations then I notice my 3 midfielders are again set up in a conservative way with a BWM (s) and CM (D).

The front 3 having attack duties encourages forward runs which equals targets for the regista but also targets for other players I've noticed.

It almost plays like a counter attacking tactic which is probably not what I was going for. The regista tends to play most of his killer balls / direct passes from our own half which is fine, but I don't see for example andy risky final third balls from camping in the opposition's half.

 

Interesting you say the regista is suited to the opposite of slow, patient possession play. It is very much an italian based role which was played by Pirlo alot of the time. Now I might be wrong but italian football is notorious for being a bit slower than other leagues. Also when Pirlo played for Juventus they used to camp alot of the time with Pirlo trying to break opposition low blocks with killer balls.

I could be totally off with the above but it's always good to bounce ideas off one another. Also I'm here to learn so it's probably best you start to get a picutre of where my knowledge level is at haha. 

[EnigMattic1]

15 hours ago, Experienced Defender said:

Given that I don't know your team, I can only tell you what tweaks you could/should consider if you want to play in a system that employs a regista (assuming you have a suitable player for this demanding PM role).

First, given that the regista is neither a holding nor generally defense-minded DM role, you need to make sure there is enough defensive protection/cover around him. You have a relatively conservative fullback on the right flank (FBsu) and a carrilero in MCR, which are roles that can offer decent protection. However, you play both of them on the same side. Therefore, I would first move the carrilero to the MCL spot, especially as you have an attacking fullback in DL, who the carrilero should cover for (more so than a CM on support). 

Now, after this tweak, your setup looks like this:

DLFsu

IFsu                                 Wat

CAR    CMsu

REG

FBat    CDde   CDde    FBsu

GK

The next thing is - the regista is a pretty much adventurous and forward-thinking type of playmaker (as opposed to the DLP), which means he tends to play in a more direct manner and is looking for every opportunity to execute a decisive killer or any long-ish pass that can potentially lead to a chance. Therefore, this type of PM is not really suitable for a slow, patient (and IMHO boring) possession styles that often insist on possession for the sake of it. 

This means 2 things:

1. you need more attacking penetration from the midfield, so that the regista would have more opportunities to play his favorite killer and long passes;

2. the "hold shape" instructions does not make much (if any) sense

Now, if my above suggestions gave you some food for thought, I'd like to see how you would set up the tactic after this.

Then we can discuss it further.

 

 

Quick question mate, would it work to swap the CMsu for a MEZs?

[Experienced Defender]

18 minutes ago, EnigMattic1 said:

Quick question mate, would it work to swap the CMsu for a MEZs?

I actually would change the CMsu into a mezzala (not necessarily on support duty). 

[Experienced Defender]

1 hour ago, lewissmith2111 said:

Sorry mate, but this makes even less sense IMHO. You now have more protection around the regista than necessary, while at the same time your front 3 are isolated. Remember, balance is key. 

What about something like this:

PFat

Wat                               IWsu

BWMsu   MEZat

REG

WBsu    CDde   CDde   IWBde

I am short of time atm, so we can discuss instructions later 

[Experienced Defender]

1 hour ago, lewissmith2111 said:

Interesting you say the regista is suited to the opposite of slow, patient possession play. It is very much an italian based role which was played by Pirlo alot of the time

Yes, but that's exactly where the trick is. While Italians do tend to play slow and sometimes even a bit boring football, they do so primarily for defensive reasons. Therefore, their patient play is employed more out of caution than attacking purposes. That's why the type of PM role like regista is important - he is here to pull the strings from a deeper area, always ready to hit that decisive killer pass when the opponent "falls asleep" following your seemingly boring style of play (defensive possession football, as I like to call it). This means that regista needs to always have both sufficient support both near him and those ready to attack space in more advanced areas in order to execute that killer pass all of a sudden 

[lewissmith2111]

11 minutes ago, Experienced Defender said:

Sorry mate, but this makes even less sense IMHO. You now have more protection around the regista than necessary, while at the same time your front 3 are isolated. Remember, balance is key. 

What about something like this:

PFat

Wat                               IWsu

BWMsu   MEZat

REG

WBsu    CDde   CDde   IWBde

I am short of time atm, so we can discuss instructions later 

See that is the exact reason I'm now asking for help haha. The scary thing is to me this made MORE sense!

Now having the MEZ(A) I get because it gives the regista another option, but would the BWM(s) be an issue on paper at least? I've always thought/read that its not a great defensive option due his closing down. I know his role fits my TI's thought in trying to win the ball slightly higher up the pitch.

Rather than quoting both of your replies, your response in regards to my idea of italian football made sooo much sense. Exactly how Pirlo used to play. Pass to players close to him especially FB/WB until a player higher up the pitch made the right movement. Brilliant .

Yeah sure when you get a bit more time to spare send a response I'd rather you not rush it thinking I was desperate for an answer. cheers.

[Experienced Defender]

2 hours ago, lewissmith2111 said:

would the BWM(s) be an issue on paper at least? I've always thought/read that its not a great defensive option due his closing down. I know his role fits my TI's thought in trying to win the ball slightly higher up the pitch

BWM can be problematic in top-heavy systems without a DM (e.g. 4231 or 424), but this 4123 system has a better balance overall. You can go with a carrilero instead of BWM if you want to have a less aggressive role protecting the flank. 

 

2 hours ago, lewissmith2111 said:

sure when you get a bit more time to spare send a response I'd rather you not rush it thinking I was desperate for an answer

Now that we have sorted roles and duties out, it's time to see what type of instructions would make sense. Given that I really don't know your team - and I don't even know if you have a suitable player for all these roles, especially the regista - I'll give you the type of advice I give to most people in situations like this one: start with just a few basic instructions, then watch the match to see what happens and make small gradual tweaks until you are pleased with what you see (but make tweaks only if/when really necessary).

I would start with the following:

Balanced mentality

In possession - play out of defence

In transition - nothing

Out of possession - nothing

Any questions?

[lewissmith2111]

14 minutes ago, Experienced Defender said:

BWM can be problematic in top-heavy systems without a DM (e.g. 4231 or 424), but this 4123 system has a better balance overall. You can go with a carrilero instead of BWM if you want to have a less aggressive role protecting the flank. 

 

Now that we have sorted roles and duties out, it's time to see what type of instructions would make sense. Given that I really don't know your team - and I don't even know if you have a suitable player for all these roles, especially the regista - I'll give you the type of advice I give to most people in situations like this one: start with just a few basic instructions, then watch the match to see what happens and make small gradual tweaks until you are pleased with what you see (but make tweaks only if/when really necessary).

I would start with the following:

Balanced mentality

In possession - play out of defence

In transition - nothing

Out of possession - nothing

Any questions?

Right okay then BWM makes sense in this case. Just best not to use them as part of a 2 man midfield i.e 4231.

Well I was only in Jan of my first season with Levante and was offered the Leicester job (they were in relegation zone & Levante were in top 6). The squad seems to suit the way I want to play a bit more so I took it. 

I always try to start all my saves with no TI's at all purely becasue I think that roles and duties (R&D) are more important. TI's just tend to encourage a specific style of play but you can even do this with just roles and duties correct?

The biggest problem I face is, as proven, understanding how the R&D's work together and creating that balance. I don't find the descriptions in game to be that helpful either. For example I don't know why you changed the FB(s) to IWB(D) and a WB(s). Is the IWB to help keep the ball closer to the regista and give him an option or to cover him when/if he goes up? Why the change from FB(s) to WB(s)?

The Mez(A) I kind of get due to needing a bit more attacking thinking from the middle. The IF to a IW I'm not too sure about. I have been reading a recent thread on here from people asking the main difference between the two so that might help. You obviously don't have to answer all of the above if you don't want but I'm just pointing out where my weakness lies when creating a tactic. Appreciate the help given so far.

[Experienced Defender]

21 minutes ago, lewissmith2111 said:

Right okay then BWM makes sense in this case. Just best not to use them as part of a 2 man midfield i.e 4231

Yes. And you should also be careful in a 442/4411, albeit less than in a 4231/424 (basically any system without a DM). 

 

23 minutes ago, lewissmith2111 said:

I always try to start all my saves with no TI's at all purely becasue I think that roles and duties (R&D) are more important. TI's just tend to encourage a specific style of play but you can even do this with just roles and duties correct?

Yes, there are successful tactics that use no TIs at all. Which does not mean that you should never use any TI. Just make sure those you use make sense and look to avoid any kind of tactical overkill. 

I'll try to answer the rest of your questions later, if I find a bit more time.