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Stimmau5

Help with creating chances and scoring goals

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Morning chaps, I have created a very solid 4-1-4-1 tactic with my Bolton team but I am really struggling with creating clear-cut chances and therefore scoring goals.

I am doing okay in the league because the defence is solid, we keep many clean sheets and we do end up with the majority of possession but end up doing not very much with it. I am unsure if the reason we do not score many is due to the tactic itself or the quality of my players. I have several young players in my starting 11 they have an average of 3 star current ability and some decent signings, but my best player is probably Ali Crawford at CM (A) and he's 4 star rated, I suspect it’s a bit of both but would love some advice if you guys can help.

I set up with the following;

GK - Defend

-

RB - Full back on - Automatic

CB - Central Defender on - D

CB - Central Defender on - D

LB - Full back on -  Automatic

-

DM - Defensive Midfielder on - Defend

-

RM - Winger on - Support

CM - Box to Box - Support

CM - Centre Midfielder - Attack

LM - Winger - Support

-

ST - Complete Forward - Support

-

In terms of instructions I have kept it very simple and have only a few, apologies I’m not at home to check but I’m sure I have the following;

In Possession (Play out of defence, high tempo)

In Transition (Regroup, Counter and distribute to full backs)

Out of possession, (Narrow defence and urgent press)

Is there anything that immediately jumps out at anyone as to why we might be creating hardly any chances in most games? We regularly go 3-4 games without scoring. Or could it just be due to the quality of my team? Thanks in advance for any advice/help you can provide.

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Not enough roles on attack jumps out straight away. Also, not to say it can’t work, having both of your wingers and full backs symmetrical might be giving you a lack of variety in your attacks.

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2 hours ago, sidslayer said:

Not enough roles on attack jumps out straight away. Also, not to say it can’t work, having both of your wingers and full backs symmetrical might be giving you a lack of variety in your attacks.

Awesome thanks for that, would you put the LM and RM on attack maybe or would that be a bit too much? I was looking at putting the complete forward on attack but feel he will be too isolated.

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I’d try just the RM to start with, then the ST. It’s trying to find the tipping point between maintaining your possession and good defence yet also  posing more of a threat.

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14 hours ago, Stimmau5 said:

I set up with the following;

GK - Defend

-

RB - Full back on - Automatic

CB - Central Defender on - D

CB - Central Defender on - D

LB - Full back on -  Automatic

-

DM - Defensive Midfielder on - Defend

-

RM - Winger on - Support

CM - Box to Box - Support

CM - Centre Midfielder - Attack

LM - Winger - Support

-

ST - Complete Forward - Support

First off, you play in a very much bottom-heavy formation and yet have only 1 attack duty in the entire setup. Therefore, it can largely explain why you are struggling to create chances/score goals while being solid at the back. So you need to add some more penetration (which this system allows for due to its inherently defensive nature). 

 

14 hours ago, Stimmau5 said:

In terms of instructions I have kept it very simple and have only a few, apologies I’m not at home to check but I’m sure I have the following;

In Possession (Play out of defence, high tempo)

In Transition (Regroup, Counter and distribute to full backs)

Out of possession, (Narrow defence and urgent press)

And which mentality? The mentality is a very important factor, because it has an automatic impact on all other instructions as well as individual player mentalities.

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8 hours ago, Experienced Defender said:

First off, you play in a very much bottom-heavy formation and yet have only 1 attack duty in the entire setup. Therefore, it can largely explain why you are struggling to create chances/score goals while being solid at the back. So you need to add some more penetration (which this system allows for due to its inherently defensive nature). 

And which mentality? The mentality is a very important factor, because it has an automatic impact on all other instructions as well as individual player mentalities.

Apologies, I didnt mention mentality in my opening post @Experienced Defender, I play Positive at home and balanced away. I did try putting the RM on attack and the left back on wingback support for 4 games last night per @sidslayer advice (thanks for that) I didnt notice an immediate difference but I understand 4 games isnt long enough.

Edited by Stimmau5

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3 hours ago, Stimmau5 said:

I play Positive at home and balanced away

Okay. Just keep in mind how great an effect the mentality - and hence any change of it - has on everything. Also, the mentality is not primarily about the style of play.  A lower mentality alone will not make you defensively solid, nor will a higher one make you more attacking by itself. In other words, you can be very solid in defense on a high mentality and - by the same token - pretty much vulnerable on a lower mentality. 

 

4 hours ago, Stimmau5 said:

I did try putting the RM on attack and the left back on wingback support for 4 games last night per @sidslayer advice (thanks for that) I didnt notice an immediate difference but I understand 4 games isnt long enough

While you do need to add more penetration - including through more attack duties - you should not do that on a random basis (i.e. by just adding more att duties just for the sake of having them). How you distribute these duties - and to which roles you assign them - is as (If not even more) important as the mere number of them. 

I can give you an example (or two) of how you can achieve more penetration while keeping good overall balance of your setup, if you want me to?

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Also about tempo. You use higher tempo, which does not make a lot of sense, given both the type of your formation and roles/duties setup. If you played on a low mentality, then higher tempo would be less of an issue (simply because then it would not be as high, due to the mentality factor). 

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1 hour ago, Experienced Defender said:

Okay. Just keep in mind how great an effect the mentality - and hence any change of it - has on everything. Also, the mentality is not primarily about the style of play.  A lower mentality alone will not make you defensively solid, nor will a higher one make you more attacking by itself. In other words, you can be very solid in defense on a high mentality and - by the same token - pretty much vulnerable on a lower mentality. 

 

While you do need to add more penetration - including through more attack duties - you should not do that on a random basis (i.e. by just adding more att duties just for the sake of having them). How you distribute these duties - and to which roles you assign them - is as (If not even more) important as the mere number of them. 

I can give you an example (or two) of how you can achieve more penetration while keeping good overall balance of your setup, if you want me to?

I'd like to see some examples please.

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Just now, HullCity1904 said:

I'd like to see some examples please

You are asking about his (flat 4141 formation) or a different one?

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Take off Higher Tempo

Switch the MR to Wide Midfielder Attack and the DR to Wingback Support and DL to Full Back Attack and you may have a bit more joy.

In future avoid automatic duty. All it does is accord duty with mentality.

Maybe consider using a Trequartista as the STC. He drops off and moves a lot but also has that higher mentality for penetration when necessary.

I might mostly copy your tactic. Very solid indeed.

Edited by permanentquandary

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5 hours ago, Experienced Defender said:

Also about tempo. You use higher tempo, which does not make a lot of sense, given both the type of your formation and roles/duties setup. If you played on a low mentality, then higher tempo would be less of an issue (simply because then it would not be as high, due to the mentality factor). 

Thanks @Experienced Defender really appreciate the guidance so far, if you wouldn't mind sharing some tips regarding penetration of the opposition that would be great. I will drop the high tempo and go standard for now.

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26 minutes ago, permanentquandary said:

Take off Higher Tempo

Switch the MR to Wide Midfielder Attack and the DR to Wingback Support and DL to Full Back Attack and you may have a bit more joy.

In future avoid automatic duty. All it does is accord duty with mentality.

Maybe consider using a Trequartista as the STC. He drops off and moves a lot but also has that higher mentality for penetration when necessary.

I might mostly copy your tactic. Very solid indeed.

Thanks man, I'll take a look at if this would fit with the players I have @permanentquandary

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Just a quick update, made some changes based on advice in this thread and just won my first game in 7! We beat Peterborough 3-1 away :D

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So thanks to the advice in here I managed to sneak into the play offs! We lost against MK dons in the semi finals but getting to the play offs with the squad I have was a massive over achievement, however the board have drastically cut my wage budget and are wanting promotion this season :idiot: I'm trying to play the save as realistic as possible so I don't want to just go out and get 5 premier League youngsters on loan and walk the league.

Could anyone recommend the best striker role for my formation? I've bounced between Complete Forward (S), Pressing forward (A) and Deep lying forward (S).

I feel that the Deep lying forward has probably worked the best but my strikers are still struggling for goals, is there a go to role any of you guys use when playing 1 up top? Someone mentioned using a trequiesta but I don't have the players for that.

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2 hours ago, Stimmau5 said:

Could anyone recommend the best striker role for my formation? I've bounced between Complete Forward (S), Pressing forward (A) and Deep lying forward (S)

There is no "best" role. It will depend both on what type of player your striker is and how the rest of your system is set up. When it comes to tactics, nothing can be viewed in isolation. 

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4 hours ago, Experienced Defender said:

There is no "best" role. It will depend both on what type of player your striker is and how the rest of your system is set up. When it comes to tactics, nothing can be viewed in isolation. 

Sorry I understand that, what I meant what is there any roles that are optimal for a lone striker? I was thinking of trying an Advanced Forward but I'm worried he will be isolated. The 2 strikers are all rounders in terms of stats so I could try most roles to be honest exept Target man and False 9.

I'm kind of hoping to have the tactic nailed down and have the best roles ready to hit the ground running, the board want promotion and with the squad and 0 budget I can't get off to a bad start, I would be gutted if I got sacked.

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20 hours ago, Stimmau5 said:

The 2 strikers are all rounders in terms of stats so I could try most roles to be honest exept Target man and False 9

Can you post screenshots of these 2 strikers' player profiles?

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1 minute ago, Experienced Defender said:

Sorry, but I asked @Stimmau5 about screenshots. Btw, this is Reading, and he is managing Bolton (AFAIR). 

Oops sorry I just posted a thread and was reading this you replied and I thought it was on my thread I sorry my bad

 

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