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I have an idea about a 433 I want to make. Last season my number one problem was breaking down teams that sit deep. So this season I am going to practice making tactics and save scum preseason friendlies to experiment.

I know I want to play a 433 and I know that I need width to exploit the narrow defences the AI constantly uses against my team. So this season I am thinking of making a tactic which uses AML and AMR players that stay wider and attack the outside of the full backs, which is the most vulnerable opposition space because it is close to the opposition goal when they camp in their 18 and a player on the outside can find shots from a wide angle into the opposite corner of the goal.

 Last season I found that doubling up on the flanks wasn't working because crosses were getting blocked all the time and I didn't have any aerial threats in my front 3 to get on the end of them if they did go into the box. If I ran midfielders from deep it generally wasn't working. The ball would just get passed about and then result in a long shot or a likely blocked/incomplete cross. So this season I am thinking I want to cross much less and play for cutbacks. The reason is that the opposition concedes a lot of space on the edge of their box, so that is the space I have to try to exploit.

In order to generate cutbacks I'm thinking of using 2 inside forwards. However they will be instructed to Stay Wider off the ball. Meanwhile the central midfielders and DM will simply park outside the 18 yard box and play keep ball, preventing any opposition transitions. Furthermore, I'm thinking this season I want to get full backs attacking the half spaces getting on the end of those cut backs. It ends up looking like a 2-3-5 formation. They will be unmarked and should be free to create a lot of havoc. Ideally they drag opposition players away, freeing up a wide inside forward to sneak in from the flanks! If I use Wingers they are instructed to Cross More Often. For me that's a problem. This is FM19 btw so no Inverted Wingers in the AML and AMR. The alternative is to have the (honestly more gifted) central midfielders performing the IWB role as deep runners and the IWBs coming and sitting deep inside behind them.

In terms of the central striker I know I want one that brings others into play. I could go with a Trequartista here. I need a player who will move a lot and drag defenders around. A Trequartista should drop off the defensive line but also attack in behind at times when the need arises. He will also move into channels, so central midfielders or IWBs can attack that space.

In the midfield I'm very concerned about the IWBs standing on the toes of my midfielders. How do I prevent that from happening? I have a feeling two holding midfielders will prevent the opposition from counter attacking and should provide that space to the IWBs.

Questions:

How viable is this idea?
How would you go about implementing it in terms of roles and duties?
What instructions and mentality would be suitable?


Don't worry about the players at my disposal. They are all very capable no matter what you suggest.

Edited by permanentquandary

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Iteration using Wide Midfielders

WM instructions for both:
Take Fewer Risks
Cross Less Often
Run Wide With Ball
Stay Wider

First two instructions should encourage cutbacks.
Second two instructions should encourage width and stretching opposition.

I have this idea of using WMs because they are customisable, whereas the IF or Winger is not. Hopefully by using the Attacking mentality it will get these players forward into the spaces I want them, while their position in the formation encourages better defensive stability and build up play - even potentially some balls over the top from a deep position for my Trequartista.

My duties are probably in the wrong places but I have this idea of using support all on one side and attack on the other for overloads.

20200115062246_1.jpg

Edited by permanentquandary

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Iteration using the AML/R

This time the BWM(S) has a Hold Position instruction

Also the idea with him is to win the ball back high up the pitch and capitalise on any opposition mistake by having the attackers on the left take advantage. Should I add Hold Position to the WM iteration?

20200115063455_1.jpg

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Yea I have had some issues with breaking down teams that sit in deep have you had any joy using IWB as apposed to Inside Forwards?

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Here is my formation I have rarely moved away from this since starting my Journey Man save. Started at Oxford City got them promoted went to Doncaster saved them from relegation and was in line for promotion when Reading came in for me saved them and finished second to get promoted. I am currently 8th In my 1st season of the prem.

 

image.thumb.png.bcdcab3954ab67b200c2610ab03b65e4.png

image.thumb.png.fc6a55b5e77734b3bcce7d0f9e8e76bb.png

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7 hours ago, Morphiushell said:

Yea I have had some issues with breaking down teams that sit in deep have you had any joy using IWB as apposed to Inside Forwards?

i haven't tried yet. My players are on holiday.

Wanted to get help before they return

Make your own thread if you want to discuss your tactic; don't hijack mine!

Edited by permanentquandary

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tbh I like it the other way, parking the IWBs in midfield so the midfield with actual attacking talent can play more aggressively. You can play your DM further forward that way too

This approach works almost absurdly well on FM19...

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1 minute ago, enigmatic said:

tbh I like it the other way, parking the IWBs in midfield so the midfield with actual attacking talent can play more aggressively. You can play your DM further forward that way too

This approach works almost absurdly well on FM19...

Perhaps you are fond of the idea of taking central mids and playing them as IWBs 😁

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I quite like bog standard fullbacks as IWBs, preferably with a bit of passing ability.

As far as I'm concerned, their role when they move into the middle of the pitch is to give the ball to players with more talent and win it back quickly if it's lost :D 

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Yeah don't use IWB on attack it's not realistic, probably close to exploting ME. Same could be said about the use of two IWBs. Be a real man and use one IWB on support.

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40 minutes ago, Mitja said:

Yeah don't use IWB on attack it's not realistic, probably close to exploting ME. Same could be said about the use of two IWBs. Be a real man and use one IWB on support.

What do you mean by exploit? Why? Can you show examples?

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9 minutes ago, robot_skeleton said:

What do you mean by exploit? Why? Can you show examples?

Cause AI barely handles one?

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4 hours ago, Mitja said:

Yeah don't use IWB on attack it's not realistic, probably close to exploting ME. Same could be said about the use of two IWBs. Be a real man and use one IWB on support.

How are two inverted wingbacks an exploit when Pep uses two of them in real life?

Edited by crusadertsar

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2 hours ago, crusadertsar said:

two inverted wingbacks an exploit

Of course it's not an exploit. Exploit tactics are much more than just a single role or a couple of them. 

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11 hours ago, permanentquandary said:

i haven't tried yet. My players are on holiday.

Wanted to get help before they return

Make your own thread if you want to discuss your tactic; don't hijack mine!

LOL i was showing you mine not hijacking your post

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In theory such tactics shouldn't work well. There is nobody stratching play, nobody providing width you need at least two players doing it. IF don't do it, especially not in final third. There are 7 maybe 8 players attacking same central space. I'd be very interested in how AI defends against such tactic it might actually do it very well.

IWB-A is same as old wibble-wobble instrcution which everyone considered exploits and SI removed it from game. Please don't take me wrong it's your game play it as you wish, my first was a little sarcastic sorry..

 

Edited by Mitja

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@permanentquandaryHave to agree with Mitja but it won't work as you think. Even when instructed to stay wider, inside forwards or inverted wingers will mostly stay inside. And with dual inverted wingbacks it makes for a very narrow tactic vulnerable on the wings. While to make a good balanced formation it's a good idea to include one player stretching the play and one cutting inside in both attack and defence (preferably on opposite flanks). Anyway its up to you whether you integrate our advise. You could still try it and see how it works. Sometimes tactics that work in the game don't make much sense and are not the same that work in reality.

Edited by crusadertsar

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OP I'm on FM20 so you might have to adapt but not to dissimilar. 

The inverted winger is asked to stay wider, which you can do with your right inside forward. And I often switch to overlap left and right, if I think I need more width This will bring your inverted fullbacks right up into the space between wide forwards and central mids, allowing you to flood the final third with runners. I prefer to use the Player instructions get further forwards on an inside forward support rather than turn him into an attack role. I don't want him always breaking my structure

Manchester United_ Overview.png

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2 hours ago, themadsheep2001 said:

Manchester United_ Overview.png

This setup looks very similar to Rashidi's Liquid 4123. Which btw was his most successful tactic in FM19, and could well be once again in FM20.

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17 minutes ago, Experienced Defender said:

This setup looks very similar to Rashidi's Liquid 4123. Which btw was his most successful tactic in FM19, and could well be once again in FM20.

He started something in fm18 that was along the lines of man city, which is something I've been wanting to play with.

Inverted wingbacks can often become conventional, as with City. The roaming playmaker often also becomes a second mezzala on support. I don't always want an overlap but still want semi aggressive midfield numbers so inverted wingback support is a nice medium.

The F9 is actually a change for me. I was playing with a complete forward support in FM19

There's some really nice Between The Posts articles on man city that have helped me shape it this season. Might go and do similar with Liverpool

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@themadsheep2001 what is the biggest difference betwen an inverted winger and an inside forward? 

And nice tactic, you've posted. I like your TI's and roles. Back on FM 19 I also loved what you could do with IWB's with the overlap TI's. Was quite immersive.

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7 minutes ago, Gegenklaus said:

@themadsheep2001 what is the biggest difference betwen an inverted winger and an inside forward? 

And nice tactic, you've posted. I like your TI's and roles. Back on FM 19 I also loved what you could do with IWB's with the overlap TI's. Was quite immersive.

From what I've seen, where they look to pick up the ball. Inverted winger bit wider and deeper, forward just moving into that channel. The after that I ask them to do different things. I have been meaning to confirm if there is any coded differences

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4 minutes ago, themadsheep2001 said:

From what I've seen, where they look to pick up the ball. Inverted winger bit wider and deeper, forward just moving into that channel. The after that I ask them to do different things. I have been meaning to confirm if there is any coded differences

Okay, s0 you find the Inside Forward going into the half space earlier, whilst the inverted winger - with the wide PI - is often more available wide and a bit deeper? How do they act in the final third? Does the IW provide good enough width like City's often do - I know it depends on what their nearest number 8 and fullback is placed, but in the final third City often has two players wide before trying to penetrate. Or at least thats how I see it. 

Edited by Gegenklaus

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9 minutes ago, Gegenklaus said:

Okay, s0 you find the Inside Forward going into the half space earlier, whilst the inverted winger - with the wide PI - is often more available wide and a bit deeper? How do they act in the final third? Does the IW provide good enough width like City's often do - I know it depends on what their nearest number 8 and fullback is placed, but in the final third City often has two players wide before trying to penetrate. Or at least thats how I see it. 

Yeah I get plenty of width from the inverted winger. I only really use the overlap to go after 5 man defences and I need to flood runners 

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3 minutes ago, themadsheep2001 said:

Yeah I get plenty of width from the inverted winger. I only really use the overlap to go after 5 man defences and I need to flood runners 

Alright. I haven't bought FM 2020 yet. But I feel an urge to get into the breach once again and try to replicating Guardiola's tactic(s) at City. Thanks for your answers. 

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@themadsheep2001So Inverted Wingback set on overlap behind inverted wingers or inside forwards should avt like a hybrid? Providing width at times and cutting in at times? Will this stretch the play enough though? I figured it would make the formation to narrow without using at least one traditional winger or fullback?

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3 minutes ago, crusadertsar said:

@themadsheep2001So Inverted Wingback set on overlap behind inverted wingers or inside forwards should avt like a hybrid? Providing width at times and cutting in at times? Will this stretch the play enough though? I figured it would make the formation to narrow without using at least one traditional winger or fullback?

For me it's less about stretching the play and more about overloading key areas, namely the half spaces for cut backs and runners into the box and dribbling at goals. And dominating build up with passing triangles. 

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1 hour ago, themadsheep2001 said:

For me it's less about stretching the play and more about overloading key areas, namely the half spaces for cut backs and runners into the box and dribbling at goals. And dominating build up with passing triangles. 

Don't you have to stretch one side to free up space for runners on the other side? Again maybe ive been looking at it at all wrong.

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Just now, crusadertsar said:

Don't you have to stretch one side to free up space for runners on the other side? Again maybe ive been looking at it at all wrong.

That's where the inverted winger is. And the mezzala attacks high into the half space with the inverted wingback back nearby as support. The other side you have the roaming playmaker and inside forward can combine with the inverted wingback on that side. 

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5 minutes ago, themadsheep2001 said:

That's where the inverted winger is. And the mezzala attacks high into the half space with the inverted wingback back nearby as support. The other side you have the roaming playmaker and inside forward can combine with the inverted wingback on that side. 

Yes i understand that but don't all those roles cut in and congest the centre of the field? You don't actually need anybody hugging the line to attract fullbacks and open up the halfspaces?

Edited by crusadertsar

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1 minute ago, crusadertsar said:

Yes i understand that but don't all those roles cut in and congest the centre of the field? You don't actually need anybody hugging the line to attract fullbacks and open up the halfspaces.

Not really no, it gives me control of the centre of the pitch with with attackers free to push forwards with support behind them. 

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16 minutes ago, themadsheep2001 said:

Not really no, it gives me control of the centre of the pitch with with attackers free to push forwards with support behind them. 

Thanks. That gives me something to test out. I just assumed from reading other guides that it wouldn't work so now I be giving it a try!

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I haven't had any luck with dual IWB but it MIGHT work with either true wingers up top or Carillero/Mezzulas at CM to provide some width (or, I suppose, if you intentionally make your grounds narrow?). 

But I HAVE had success with a single IWB behind a single Mez in a 4231 assym (where one of the CMs is actually a DMC). Play the IWB on the side behind the Mez with either or IF or a RAM up in the AMLR position on that side. I find that arrangement tends to produce really good results (but it can be very personnel dependent). A Carrilero can also work very well here if the CM in question doesn't have the pace to cover the ground a Mez needs to cover.

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On 16/01/2020 at 11:17, themadsheep2001 said:

OP I'm on FM20 so you might have to adapt but not to dissimilar. 

The inverted winger is asked to stay wider, which you can do with your right inside forward. And I often switch to overlap left and right, if I think I need more width This will bring your inverted fullbacks right up into the space between wide forwards and central mids, allowing you to flood the final third with runners. I prefer to use the Player instructions get further forwards on an inside forward support rather than turn him into an attack role. I don't want him always breaking my structure

Manchester United_ Overview.png

@themadsheep2001 Do you make any substantial changes against teams that look to only defend? I have a similar tactic based on Rashidi's Liquid but struggle to change it up against those teams who make it really difficult to find any space.

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7 minutes ago, milestobudapest said:

@themadsheep2001 Do you make any substantial changes against teams that look to only defend? I have a similar tactic based on Rashidi's Liquid but struggle to change it up against those teams who make it really difficult to find any space.

Nothing substantial. I look to see how and where they are keeping me out and change accordingly

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