Jump to content
Sports Interactive Community
SOULjah

AI is predicting future and succeeding in certain periods?

Recommended Posts

I will explain in this sentence, I am playing FM19 and I re-bought it on my new Steam account a week before the beta of FM20.

I believe FM19 was one of if not the first to suggest a 'major' adjustment and improvement of AI, I am not complaining on this issue just pointing something out is all. 

I am in my fourth season with Altrincham at first trying to decrease my length time playing matches trying to understand how people play in highlight mode, I couldn't figure it out for 3 seasons so I reverted playing full matches because I felt I was missing too much and decreasing my time I felt like I spent too much time configuring my set pieces every time the ball went out of play increasing my match time to just as much as playing full matches or maybe at times more so.

I still haven't managed to get out of VNN although being in 2 play offs and coming second on my third season doesn't cut it down here for promotion.

Anyway, my point...

... at certain times of season I notice no matter how bad a keeper is he becomes a superman, usually near the end of the season against a relegated team with no hope.

This particular scenario in my current FA Trophy match 1st Round was when one of my players shot outside the box certain from the strikers perspective to go to the top left corner 100% then I can only imagine that the ball was made of some kinda of metal, the keeper was Magneto (Marvel comics) he literally willed the ball from behind him without diving or looking at it to go in his hands.

However, the reason for this post is a moment in my current FA Trophy match 1st Round was what looked like a certain goal to me even if the keeper was standing in the way and it literally just hit him no other reaction at all just hit him like he was deliberately put there by some force , did the AI just deliberately put him there because it knew it was going to happen? Who knows?

I am not going to claim 'cheating' or what not, I am actually enjoying playing this game and learning to think a little more out of the box with FM now more than ever playing formations now not even in the general get up when initially setting up tactics.

I have got to say SE, this iteration has me thinking a tad more rather than the old 'it's my way or no way' attitude I had in FM17.

But please can we get rid of Magneto and the supermen it's not a comic book RPG.

Thanks for the consideration.

Edited by SOULjah

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

ahhh and now we have a super keeper thread.. the conspiracy theories are complete.. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
19 minutes ago, rinso said:

ahhh and now we have a super keeper thread.. the conspiracy theories are complete.. 

Pretty much in jest yeah.

A lot of the issues I raise have been around for some time after the keeper dropping the ball in the net moments we used to get.

However, may I point to my OP it's more about my suspicions on AI not really the keepers, these are a couple of examples on what I noticed in my last match. There are plenty of outfield issues I have noticed when a opposition player is in the exact place the ball gets miss hit too or bounces off one of your players despite having masses of possession and it's working perfectly, I'm not talking a single oops moment they are consistent moments.

I apologise, I seem to be moaning because of an irrelevant post in my thread.

Meh... 

Edited by SOULjah

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It sounds like an animation that failed to trigger.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 hours ago, SOULjah said:

I will explain in this sentence, I am playing FM19 and I re-bought it on my new Steam account a week before the beta of FM20.

I believe FM19 was one of if not the first to suggest a 'major' adjustment and improvement of AI, I am not complaining on this issue just pointing something out is all. 

I am in my fourth season with Altrincham at first trying to decrease my length time playing matches trying to understand how people play in highlight mode, I couldn't figure it out for 3 seasons so I reverted playing full matches because I felt I was missing too much and decreasing my time I felt like I spent too much time configuring my set pieces every time the ball went out of play increasing my match time to just as much as playing full matches or maybe at times more so.

I still haven't managed to get out of VNN although being in 2 play offs and coming second on my third season doesn't cut it down here for promotion.

Anyway, my point...

... at certain times of season I notice no matter how bad a keeper is he becomes a superman, usually near the end of the season against a relegated team with no hope.

This particular scenario in my current FA Trophy match 1st Round was when one of my players shot outside the box certain from the strikers perspective to go to the top left corner 100% then I can only imagine that the ball was made of some kinda of metal, the keeper was Magneto (Marvel comics) he literally willed the ball from behind him without diving or looking at it to go in his hands.

However, the reason for this post is a moment in my current FA Trophy match 1st Round was what looked like a certain goal to me even if the keeper was standing in the way and it literally just hit him no other reaction at all just hit him like he was deliberately put there by some force , did the AI just deliberately put him there because it knew it was going to happen? Who knows?

I am not going to claim 'cheating' or what not, I am actually enjoying playing this game and learning to think a little more out of the box with FM now more than ever playing formations now not even in the general get up when initially setting up tactics.

I have got to say SE, this iteration has me thinking a tad more rather than the old 'it's my way or no way' attitude I had in FM17.

But please can we get rid of Magneto and the supermen it's not a comic book RPG.

Thanks for the consideration.

Its not the AI if you mean opposition, its the ME that calculates how things go. Atm Magneto gk's are one of the tools to keep goal numbers sensible because of bad defending.  Others are finishing in general including headers.

ME is like a referee, everything is fine if its not being talked about. When talking starts something is wrong. :D

Edited by Pasonen

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

As @HUNT3R has said, this is an animation issue with poor representation of the incident- as this is for FM 19, I doubt that anything can be done about it now.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I noticed an usual streak of unexpected losses with good morale followed by a streak of wins with bad morale, it happens often. Who knows which are the tricks inside the engine... Anyway we will never know (if there are or not), but better not have them.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 hours ago, FrazT said:

As @HUNT3R has said, this is an animation issue with poor representation of the incident- as this is for FM 19, I doubt that anything can be done about it now.

Ah I know, I'm aware you guys are 100% into FM20 I'm not expecting anything to be done at all which is just the way I like it hence why I play FM19 now.

Mostly what I post is bluster talking to others trying to figure out a way to sort something out. 

After the OP I spent rest of night and a bit of this morning focused on setting up all kind of configurations concerning set piece set ups after noticing a lot of my problems come from set pieces against me.

The next match I played at half time the opposition has absolutely no shots at all and the opposition scored an own goal from one of my own set pieces on 11 mins, this actually held till the 93rd min of 94 mins and yes you guessed it they got an equaliser - mostly complacency on my part though.

6 hours ago, Tetsuro P12 said:

Who knows which are the tricks inside the engine... Anyway we will never know (if there are or not).

 I find SI extremely respectable developers unlike politics and military all over the world they (at least what I noticed) never have 'exposed' leaks for for the iterations they have coming out year after year after year.

Does make me wonder with their apparent good work ethos, commitment and generally good treatment of their community how they would fair in the House of Commons? 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8 hours ago, HUNT3R said:

It sounds like an animation that failed to trigger.

Honestly not sure what you are pointing at keepers or outfields I mention in thread? I get your point and not trying to dismiss it.

Like I said, "they are consistent moments" surely if it was something you suggest it would be something that would have been fixed or not deemed important above other things? 

Being it's FM19 I doubt any updates ever to be available again, but potentially advertising.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
36 minutes ago, SOULjah said:

Honestly not sure what you are pointing at keepers or outfields I mention in thread? I get your point and not trying to dismiss it.

Like I said, "they are consistent moments" surely if it was something you suggest it would be something that would have been fixed or not deemed important above other things? 

Being it's FM19 I doubt any updates ever to be available again, but potentially advertising.

Your post was about the keeper standing dead still and saving shots without moving at all. As I said, it sounds like the keeper saved it, but the animation for it failed to trigger so it looks odd.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, HUNT3R said:

Your post was about the keeper standing dead still and saving shots without moving at all. As I said, it sounds like the keeper saved it, but the animation for it failed to trigger so it looks odd.

I disagree, focusing on a single thing I mention isn't grasping what I am talking about from a single match. 

"AI is predicting future and succeeding in certain periods?" - AI is what I am questioning as people have mentioned it could be a ME issue too referring to this at this moment in time I am not dismissing anything, nothing I am questioning has really been answered because no one really has concrete evidence of anything other than opinion and 'he says, she says' scenarios that play out in the forum. 

 

 

Edited by SOULjah

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 minutes ago, SOULjah said:

I disagree, focusing on a single thing I mention isn't grasping what I am talking about from a single match. 

 

To be fair, people can only help you based on what you tell us. 

We can't read your mind and memory. 

AI is not predicting future it is making choices based on the situation at hand like it always does, and has.

The point about the animation does seem to be an issue.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
18 hours ago, SOULjah said:

I still haven't managed to get out of VNN although being in 2 play offs and coming second on my third season doesn't cut it down here for promotion.

I feel you m8. I got promoted with Oxford city on my second season partly by luck. I hope some moderators take this seriously when I say take a look how ME or whatever counts things in last quarter of the season. If you're in playoff positions and go against a team from relegation battle positions these games are a nightmare for the "better" team. Please check it out.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Pasonen said:

I can send game files if i find them where my team just plays badly without no reason. I have loaded my save earlier to cloud named Oxies1

 

 

Oxford City v Eastbourne Borough.pkm 146.75 kB · 0 downloads

They won't get spotted here, please post them in the appropriate AI and Tactics bug forum, and providing the information requested there.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Lucas said:

To be fair, people can only help you based on what you tell us. 

We can't read your mind and memory.

I'm not suggesting people do and not asking them too either. However, I did not post this thread on "standing still keepers" the thread headline states I am questioning AI, also in the thread I haven't just mentioned "standing still keeper" either. 

I have learnt that their is an issue potentially with the ME and I understand this, frequently pointed out by myself and others that there is a huge doubt anything will ever be done - I get this also, it's how I like it.

 

1 hour ago, Pasonen said:

I feel you m8. I got promoted with Oxford city on my second season partly by luck. I hope some moderators take this seriously when I say take a look how ME or whatever counts things in last quarter of the season. If you're in playoff positions and go against a team from relegation battle positions these games are a nightmare for the "better" team. Please check it out.

Hey! Nice someone understands!

Not sure what version you are playing? I have absolutely no experience in FM20 yet if this is so. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
10 minutes ago, SOULjah said:

Hey! Nice someone understands!

Not sure what version you are playing? I have absolutely no experience in FM20 yet if this is so. 

I'm playing FM20. :) Good luck to your save.. Damn 4th season.. how many hairs and monitors have you lost? :D

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Pasonen said:

I'm playing FM20. :) Good luck to your save.. Damn 4th season.. how many hairs and monitors have you lost? :D

I took a year out from playing FM, literally waited on FM20 to come out to re-buy after I deleted my old Steam account and made the one I now possess concerning Steam.

Previous iterations I have probably lost more hairs and monitors then now, I used to make notes on every match I think to make my play style make sense to me apparently trying to force the game to play how I wanted with my pencil and tons of paper always assuming I was always right. FM17 was the only FM I was proven right in sticking to a certain way and consistently winning - sadly I got quite bored after it gifted me a Liverpool tie at Anfield beating them also getting a bit of bank roll too, too easy to be honest.

Also changed the way I play in FM19 for 3 seasons prior to this season I'm currently on, I played in comprehensive highlights and honestly it doesn't suit my play style I really need to watch whole matches otherwise I feel out of control, every god damned free kick I conceded unlike most corners I never saw the lead up to the foul to judge what kind of tactic I could potentially deploy just before or after free kick being taken...

... shamefully, I'm a tinkerer. But so was Ranieri at Chelsea and managed to manage Leicester City to a Premiership title!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 14/01/2020 at 05:31, Pasonen said:

Its not the AI if you mean opposition, its the ME that calculates how things go. Atm Magneto gk's are one of the tools to keep goal numbers sensible because of bad defending.  Others are finishing in general including headers.

ME is like a referee, everything is fine if its not being talked about. When talking starts something is wrong. :D

Going to bump this up again and work with this quote on what I am suggesting in the header of post concerning AI.

On 14/01/2020 at 21:20, SOULjah said:

... shamefully, I'm a tinkerer. But so was Ranieri at Chelsea and managed to manage Leicester City to a Premiership title!

Here I claim this for myself.

However, I will admit I'm a little hard nosed in where I TRY my hardest to not go outside the parameters of the 3 tactics I set up at the tactics screen unless I feel something needs an tactical overhaul overall. If not a "tactical overhaul overall" but during a match, I usually only deviate from the "parameters of the 3 tactics" if forced upon me due to a red card or an injury after using all my subs.

With the above statement, I'd like to know if I actually am being hard nosed in sticking to "parameters"?

Or should I be more flexible and deviate from the "parameters" more often?

To me the first question makes more sense to be the correct way to do things. However, if you guys suggest it's the other question I ask to be the right way then I will have to call in question the validity of the 3 tactic system that's been in place for some time.

The statement at the top although I am not here disregarding the statement, isn't that just the AI and ME working together? We aren't talking about separate entities they are entities within a single game making the game and it's complexities what it is.

However, I did recently a overhaul on one of my three tactics because I was losing too often for a team in a play off position and I started to get better results albeit draws but I could see better results on the horizon leading to a run of 3 very good wins on the run.

However, there was one little discrepancy I noticed during a run of 8-9 games where I only lost once to a team in the league matches bottom with no wins at all at that particular time in the season was most goals I conceded were in the approximately the same place, a yard and a half above the penalty spot and between half a yard to yard to the left of the goal at the keepers perspective...

1303398444_Spotwhereoppositionscorefartoooften.thumb.png.4f528c56ebfcb69a29ab475dbbac8ea3.png

... like, there all the time.

I have been working at plugging the conceding of goals at set pieces and it worked for some time.

However, no matter how the goals came about for the opposition, cross, long ball, short pass, set piece or even an ME mis/calculation the ball dropped to that position to get booted into the net far to often to be an accident although, also, not every time the ball dropped in the position either I think I'd be bottom of the pile with ridiculous goal difference I fear if this was so.

Until the last match I played after "a run of 3 very good wins on the run", I was 0-2 up away after approx 30 minutes against the 7th placed team while my team was 4th, quite an important match you'll agree?

After 30 minutes of the match I didn't feel comfortable playing more cautiously and tweaking tactics to lock down until at least another goal was scored - it didn't happen.

First opposition goal - short pass from left of spot a yard or two above I mention from the attackers perspective - 1-3.

Second opposition goal - ball from opposition keeper the midfielder who holds up play and passes to spot I mention 2-2.

Third opposition goal - ball from corner on left of keepers perspective passed exactly to the spot I mention 3-2.

I am not here claiming 'cheating' here, okay?

I am not here complaining about the issue claiming it to be unfair either, okay? I feel on this issue it's just something I need to fix and just not thought of a solution yet. 

I am also not going to claim 'I am never going to play this game anymore', okay? <--- I'd be lying to you and myself there!

It just seems a tad exploitative by the AI and ME working together to create the situation? <-- notice the question mark? I'm leaving it open for debate and not making a 100% claim. 

"Atm Magneto gk's are one of the tools to keep goal numbers sensible because of bad defending."

This statement here is what got me over thinking and obsessing about this, the claim of "one of the tools" which means there are potentially several within the game and this particular post may point out another?

However, being in my fourth season in VNN and just being unable to get out with a new perspective on playing unlike other ways I used to play which with the new perspective I do find much more enjoyable and realistic, the statement I outline there in bold should really only be effective for right at the top teams don't you guys think?

Seems a tad aggressive by the AI and ME working together to create the scenario right through all the teams being used in a save?

I do think I'm going into an overly overthinking mode at the moment.

So I will leave it there.

Thanks for the consideration.

 

 

 

  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

You're playing fm19 yes? You need to try fm20 to know what I mean. Ofc ME balances things some way because atm defending is reacting too slow and theres too many 1v1 clearcutschances. 

This is one of my treads concerning dc's in fm20.

Edited by Pasonen

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
43 minutes ago, SOULjah said:

Going to bump this up again and work with this quote on what I am suggesting in the header of post concerning AI.

Here I claim this for myself.

However, I will admit I'm a little hard nosed in where I TRY my hardest to not go outside the parameters of the 3 tactics I set up at the tactics screen unless I feel something needs an tactical overhaul overall. If not a "tactical overhaul overall" but during a match, I usually only deviate from the "parameters of the 3 tactics" if forced upon me due to a red card or an injury after using all my subs.

With the above statement, I'd like to know if I actually am being hard nosed in sticking to "parameters"?

Or should I be more flexible and deviate from the "parameters" more often?

To me the first question makes more sense to be the correct way to do things. However, if you guys suggest it's the other question I ask to be the right way then I will have to call in question the validity of the 3 tactic system that's been in place for some time.

The statement at the top although I am not here disregarding the statement, isn't that just the AI and ME working together? We aren't talking about separate entities they are entities within a single game making the game and it's complexities what it is.

However, I did recently a overhaul on one of my three tactics because I was losing too often for a team in a play off position and I started to get better results albeit draws but I could see better results on the horizon leading to a run of 3 very good wins on the run.

However, there was one little discrepancy I noticed during a run of 8-9 games where I only lost once to a team in the league matches bottom with no wins at all at that particular time in the season was most goals I conceded were in the approximately the same place, a yard and a half above the penalty spot and between half a yard to yard to the left of the goal at the keepers perspective...

1303398444_Spotwhereoppositionscorefartoooften.thumb.png.4f528c56ebfcb69a29ab475dbbac8ea3.png

... like, there all the time.

I have been working at plugging the conceding of goals at set pieces and it worked for some time.

However, no matter how the goals came about for the opposition, cross, long ball, short pass, set piece or even an ME mis/calculation the ball dropped to that position to get booted into the net far to often to be an accident although, also, not every time the ball dropped in the position either I think I'd be bottom of the pile with ridiculous goal difference I fear if this was so.

Until the last match I played after "a run of 3 very good wins on the run", I was 0-2 up away after approx 30 minutes against the 7th placed team while my team was 4th, quite an important match you'll agree?

After 30 minutes of the match I didn't feel comfortable playing more cautiously and tweaking tactics to lock down until at least another goal was scored - it didn't happen.

First opposition goal - short pass from left of spot a yard or two above I mention from the attackers perspective - 1-3.

Second opposition goal - ball from opposition keeper the midfielder who holds up play and passes to spot I mention 2-2.

Third opposition goal - ball from corner on left of keepers perspective passed exactly to the spot I mention 3-2.

I am not here claiming 'cheating' here, okay?

I am not here complaining about the issue claiming it to be unfair either, okay? I feel on this issue it's just something I need to fix and just not thought of a solution yet. 

I am also not going to claim 'I am never going to play this game anymore', okay? <--- I'd be lying to you and myself there!

It just seems a tad exploitative by the AI and ME working together to create the situation? <-- notice the question mark? I'm leaving it open for debate and not making a 100% claim. 

"Atm Magneto gk's are one of the tools to keep goal numbers sensible because of bad defending."

This statement here is what got me over thinking and obsessing about this, the claim of "one of the tools" which means there are potentially several within the game and this particular post may point out another?

However, being in my fourth season in VNN and just being unable to get out with a new perspective on playing unlike other ways I used to play which with the new perspective I do find much more enjoyable and realistic, the statement I outline there in bold should really only be effective for right at the top teams don't you guys think?

Seems a tad aggressive by the AI and ME working together to create the scenario right through all the teams being used in a save?

I do think I'm going into an overly overthinking mode at the moment.

So I will leave it there.

Thanks for the consideration.

 

 

 

  

Have to ask what mentality u used when first opposition goal came? Didnt quite catch it my self. :/

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 minutes ago, Pasonen said:

First opposition goal - short pass from left of spot a yard or two above I mention from the attackers perspective - 1-3.

Second opposition goal - ball from opposition keeper the midfielder who holds up play and passes to spot I mention 2-2.

Third opposition goal - ball from corner on left of keepers perspective passed exactly to the spot I mention 3-2.

Who was trying to mark goal scorer? DL or DCL ?

Edited by Pasonen

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Pasonen said:

You're playing fm19 yes? You need to try fm20 to know what I mean.

Yes indeed to first question and no to the statement on FM20. <-- probably not till week before release of beta of FM21, I deliberately took time out from FM for a year to play this way.

1 hour ago, Pasonen said:

Have to ask what mentality u used when first opposition goal came? Didnt quite catch it my self. :/

I haven't mentioned mentality deliberately because it'll be irrelevant I feel as depending on situation on a particular match I'm switching between structured, flexible and fluid not in any particular order, I also make incorrect decisions at times like I suggest any FM player does with situations.

1 hour ago, Pasonen said:

Who was trying to mark goal scorer? DL or DCL ?

 

On 13/01/2020 at 22:13, SOULjah said:

 ...playing formations now not even in the general get up when initially setting up tactics.

I'll explain better, when setting up tactics when choosing Altrincham I choose to play a bit differently to how I usually played, usually I'd do a clear out and get players via scouting and player search to play how I wanted to play.

This time though, I decided to work with what I was given initially which lead to me playing in formations "not even in the general get up".

Doing things around the house I realised to myself before reading this that I shy away from specifically marking in player instructions because playing a flat back 4 the other teams 'seemed' to exploit spaces made by players leaving where they were.

I now play a Central Defence of a back 3 who are pretty l33t for a VNN team and maybe just maybe be able to work out using the tight mark of specific players better?

I know the instruction doesn't have to be a centre half. However, I play a DLP Support when I have a single man in central midfield, I don't think Support would be appropriate for a DLP in Support to man mark (but maybe...), surely Defensive would be better. However, I don't want to really kick off like this I'd rather play Support with him until match plays out a bit.

Oh god damn! 

Why am I disregarding my 2 DMs I play...

...so daft!

Laters!

Edited by SOULjah

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 16/01/2020 at 12:51, SOULjah said:

Oh god damn! 

Why am I disregarding my 2 DMs I play...

...so daft!

Laters!

A little bump again.

So due to real life commitments I only actually got to play 2 matches since this post.

It's been an interested couple of matches though to be honest, my first game I set up my 2 DMs to man mark certain positions that mostly got the goals looking back on last ten matches I conceded 14 goals and 8 were conceded against MR and STCR in the approx area I marked out in one of my previous posts. 

So I attempted to mark them out of the next game with said positions I've been playing with since rebooting the game on purchase, it worked beat them 1-0 with a goal in last 4 minutes of game. Great!

The next game though even only 2 games into this set up was fine until a predictable (because it happens far too often to be realistic) mistake by my own player (the only mistake my team made) lead to a superb goal for the opposition (who were 18th and I was 5th) including Superman in goal saving every shot that lead from a mistake from the opposition consistently (well, 4 times I exaggerated. But still 3 times more my team made a mistake).

Beautiful Goal though.

However, the 6 goals I conceded other than the 8 in the approx position from spot I mention in one of my previous posts were frankly 'beautiful goals' so I feel there is a balancing act going on also, which also does not make me feel too bad and take it as 'one of those days'.

Having it happen in one match does not make a pattern, so I have to keep going.

The problem is, weirdness started happening more often approx 12 games ago when I signed a new contract and changing the philosophy 'to reach Play Offs'.

However I'm 7th, bottom of Play Off portion 8 points from dropping out and 8 points from top, literally anything can actually happen.

After my last game I considered playing Deshity 2 to shoot people for a bit. However, I feel I just talked myself into booting FM19 back up again!

 

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.


  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.

×
×
  • Create New...