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LCFCEaves31

Anyway of stopping AI counter?

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Hi

In both FM19 and FM20, I can’t stop being countered? Either a quick ping to the wings or they just lob it in behind and hey presto... goal. I dominate the play, struggle to score and with one counter they do. 
Is it possible to play high press without being countered? Does anyone have any advise on team instructions or formations they use successfully using a high press. It feels the only road to success is with the best teams or counter...

I know I haven’t posted my tactics but they are being changed continuously (reloading the same game) to see what difference my changes make. Always leads to same thing unless I go complete extreme of deep line, deep LOE and counter them. Isn’t how I want to play...

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Without seeing your tactic (screenshot), I cannot offer any meaningful advice. Sorry.

1 hour ago, LCFCEaves31 said:

I know I haven’t posted my tactics but they are being changed continuously (reloading the same game) to see what difference my changes make. Always leads to same thing unless I go complete extreme of deep line, deep LOE and counter them. Isn’t how I want to play

You can make countless different tactics, and each may well prove a failure if your basic approach to tactics is wrong.

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13 hours ago, Experienced Defender said:

Without seeing your tactic (screenshot), I cannot offer any meaningful advice. Sorry.

You can make countless different tactics, and each may well prove a failure if your basic approach to tactics is wrong.

Ok you can make countless GOOD tactics and each may prove a failure due to the bugs in the match engine.

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4 hours ago, andysafc said:

Ok you can make countless GOOD tactics and each may prove a failure due to the bugs in the match engine.

If blaming the ME for everything makes you feel better, then just keep it up :thup:

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I’m actually playing fm19 still so not blaming match engine, I’m constantly getting it wrong because others have lots of success with what I want but I’m missing something. 
I will post my formation and roles when I can before I mention team instructions.... because as I’ve  said I have changed these a lot and had same result...

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1 hour ago, Experienced Defender said:

If blaming the ME for everything makes you feel better, then just keep it up :thup:

Why would blaming the ME make me feel better? 

Watching players take as much room as a tank would take to turn around with the ball gives me no pleasure to watch or complain about it.

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7 minutes ago, andysafc said:

Why would blaming the ME make me feel better? 

Watching players take as much room as a tank would take to turn around with the ball gives me no pleasure to watch or complain about it.

We're not in GD. This section is for tactical discussion and advice - something that can always help - at any time, for anyone, in any ME. @Experienced Defender among others, is doing a good job of just that. Add to it, if you can, or not.

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59 minutes ago, andysafc said:

Why would blaming the ME make me feel better?

I did not claim that it makes you feel better. I said if it does, then keep doing that (as opposed to accepting that it still might be primarily about a tactic, rather than just the ME). 

Because you are fully entitled to your own opinion (even if wrong), as long as you respect the forum rules and do not offend anyone :thup:

Btw, @HUNT3R is absolutely right about this: 

1 hour ago, HUNT3R said:

We're not in GD. This section is for tactical discussion and advice - something that can always help - at any time, for anyone, in any ME

 

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21 hours ago, LCFCEaves31 said:

Hi

In both FM19 and FM20, I can’t stop being countered? Either a quick ping to the wings or they just lob it in behind and hey presto... goal. I dominate the play, struggle to score and with one counter they do. 
Is it possible to play high press without being countered? Does anyone have any advise on team instructions or formations they use successfully using a high press. It feels the only road to success is with the best teams or counter...

I know I haven’t posted my tactics but they are being changed continuously (reloading the same game) to see what difference my changes make. Always leads to same thing unless I go complete extreme of deep line, deep LOE and counter them. Isn’t how I want to play...

Check your dc physical attributes and decide wich one counter fast attacker and wich one the tall one ;) man mark playmaker? Use MC def at the side off the attacking winger. Dribble less? Cross less? 

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I'm using a 4-2-4 with a very high line and max press intensity going suprisingly well. In playoffspots right now in the championship. One thing that is a must is to have one fast cd's who also have good positioning and anticipation and use one of them on cover. Use no offside trap since the cd on cover will play them onside then. Just sold my best and most importand cd to cardiff for 17 million pounds hope it wasnt a mistake!

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2 hours ago, emil_sbn said:

I'm using a 4-2-4 with a very high line and max press intensity going suprisingly well. In playoffspots right now in the championship. One thing that is a must is to have one fast cd's who also have good positioning and anticipation and use one of them on cover. Use no offside trap since the cd on cover will play them onside then. Just sold my best and most importand cd to cardiff for 17 million pounds hope it wasnt a mistake!

That could be one of my issues I guess... I have Johnny Evans, brilliant defender, but at 32 he is slowing up a bit. 

I have just noticed, Evans also has mark opponent tightly trait... I think I am going to have to stick at Standard defensive line for a bit and see if anything changes

Edited by LCFCEaves31

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Anyway, here is what I have been using more often than not formation and roles wise. 

Since FM17, I have really struggled on what role to pick for a loan striker. One part of my mind in this system is telling me to use a DLF or F9 to drop and play in IF's / CM (a), but it seems to become very congested... so recently I have tried PF and AF... neither of which seem to work wonders. 

 

20200114200358_1.jpg

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Getting really fed up now/frustrated why it is that I am finding the newest versions of this game so difficult. Since FM17 I just don't get it. 

I just lost 3-1 to a team that lost their previous game 5-1... it was so easy for them to score. How come the opposition can pull a ball back to an unmarked man upfront, but mine can't get a cross past the full back? I was defending narrow originally to stop being hurt through the middle, but they cross balls in and always find a man unmarked (this isn't just this last match, loads of the AI goals come from crosses on the counter to un-marked wingers). I never do. So changed defensive width to standard to hope we'd stop the crosses... that didn't stop it. 

Edited by LCFCEaves31

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2 hours ago, LCFCEaves31 said:

20200114200358_1.jpg

These are roles and duties - which do need some tweaking - but where are instructions (including the mentality)? 

 

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10 hours ago, Experienced Defender said:

These are roles and duties - which do need some tweaking - but where are instructions (including the mentality)? 

 

I felt (rightly or wrongly) I needed to take one step at a time because I feel drowned in information on here at the moment. 
 

Can we start with some role issues you see or do you need everything? 

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I don't think that the squad available to Watford is particularly suited to the 4-1-2-3 Wide formation. I think you would be better off playing a 4-4-2 or a variant which has 2 out and out strikers.

The reason why I suggest this is that to have a lone striker he needs to be an all rounder. He needs to have the strength to hold off defenders while he waits for support from deep, enough mobility to take on and get past defenders by himself (as he will usually be outnumbered if the ball is played into him early) and to be able to have the vision and technical ability to bring his teammates into play. As a result, he needs to be an exceptional player especially in the EPL. 

At Watford, I don't think you have a player in the squad which can perform all the components required for the role of a lone striker whereas you do have players which are very good at some components which is why you need to spread it among 2 players in my view. For e.g., Deeney can be the guy to use his strength to hold up the ball and play others in and he could be partnered with someone like Deulofeu who is quick or Welbeck.

I also wouldn't think too much about what you used to be able to do in FM17 and hoping to bring that into FM20. In FM17, I could get a lone striker to score loads of goals but that was a result of the central areas being so easy to exploit because of an issue with the positioning of wide midfielders in the defensive phase (they wouldn't contribute to defending by staying high and wide which would mean you could overwhelm the central areas easily).

Also, counter attacks are only triggered when you have over commit men forward and there is a turnover of possession to the opposition. That is why @Experienced Defender (congrats on becoming a mod) is asking you about your mentality and team instructions. On higher mentalities you will be more prone to teams counter attacking you.

Hopefully what I have written is of help to you

Best Regards

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3 hours ago, LCFCEaves31 said:

I felt (rightly or wrongly) I needed to take one step at a time because I feel drowned in information on here at the moment. 
 

Can we start with some role issues you see or do you need everything?

Okay, let's start with role issues then. But I'll need to see everything in any case, because otherwise any potential advice can be misleading due to the lack of important info. 

I don't know what style of play you want to implement, but you need to know that AF generally tends to struggle when played as a lone striker (albeit less so in counter-attacking systems, because they employ a lower LOE, which creates more space for the AF). So you may consider changing the AF into a PF on attack or DLF on attack (depending on the player's attributes). 

If you want a CM on attack duty in MCR, then I would rather have the AMR as a winger on support than IF (speaking from the perspective of creating and utilizing space in attack). 

As for the rest, I would really have to see the whole tactic first. Sorry. 

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7 hours ago, Experienced Defender said:

Okay, let's start with role issues then. But I'll need to see everything in any case, because otherwise any potential advice can be misleading due to the lack of important info. 

I don't know what style of play you want to implement, but you need to know that AF generally tends to struggle when played as a lone striker (albeit less so in counter-attacking systems, because they employ a lower LOE, which creates more space for the AF). So you may consider changing the AF into a PF on attack or DLF on attack (depending on the player's attributes). 

If you want a CM on attack duty in MCR, then I would rather have the AMR as a winger on support than IF (speaking from the perspective of creating and utilizing space in attack). 

As for the rest, I would really have to see the whole tactic first. Sorry. 

Ok, after playing late last night (and taking on a couple of points here) this is the latest attempt at trying to play... Haven't changed much on TI's other than standard LOE and standard defensive line because, as the title hints at, I am losing a lot of goals from AI balls over the top or general quick counter attacks

20200115201732_1.jpg

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1 hour ago, LCFCEaves31 said:

20200115201732_1.jpg

Okay, the defense-related problem that I immediately spotted - and one that could well be a reason for your issues with opposition counter-attacks - is your right flank. Because you have both CM on attack and WB on attack on the same side. It would be risky even if the WB on attack was replaced with a standard FB on attack, so I think you can understand what I mean. 

Another potential reason for your defensive vulnerability - albeit less pronounced than the right flank - is the use of Tight marking team instruction. Tight marking can be a decent option when you play primarily defensive football in a bottom-heavy formation and good vertical compactness. Your tactic however is not one of those. 

Exactly the same applies to the Get stuck in team instruction. Therefore, you are using 2 out-of-possession TIs that does not really fit well into your tactic overall. 

Of course, the counter-press is always a potentially risky instruction. It does not mean that you should never use this instruction. It just means that you should be very careful with it and use it rather situationally than as part of your regular tactic. So that's yet another potential source of your defensive troubles. 

So these are basically things you need to think about and try to fix. At this point, I am not going to tell you what specifically I would do, because you should try to figure it out yourself based on the information I gave you.

Once you do the tweaks you think should be done, post a screenshot of that new tactic and we'll see if it's okay now or perhaps more "repair" will be needed.

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8 minutes ago, Experienced Defender said:

Okay, the defense-related problem that I immediately spotted - and one that could well be a reason for your issues with opposition counter-attacks - is your right flank. Because you have both CM on attack and WB on attack on the same side. It would be risky even if the WB on attack was replaced with a standard FB on attack, so I think you can understand what I mean. 

Another potential reason for your defensive vulnerability - albeit less pronounced than the right flank - is the use of Tight marking team instruction. Tight marking can be a decent option when you play primarily defensive football in a bottom-heavy formation and good vertical compactness. Your tactic however is not one of those. 

Exactly the same applies to the Get stuck in team instruction. Therefore, you are using 2 out-of-possession TIs that does not really fit well into your tactic overall. 

Of course, the counter-press is always a potentially risky instruction. It does not mean that you should never use this instruction. It just means that you should be very careful with it and use it rather situationally than as part of your regular tactic. So that's yet another potential source of your defensive troubles. 

So these are basically things you need to think about and try to fix. At this point, I am not going to tell you what specifically I would do, because you should try to figure it out yourself based on the information I gave you.

Once you do the tweaks you think should be done, post a screenshot of that new tactic and we'll see if it's okay now or perhaps more "repair" will be needed.

Firstly, I cannot believe I have missed the fact my CM (a) is on the same side as WB (a)… a good balance was one of the few things I thought I had learnt over the years :(

Having said that, playing a DM (or half-back in this instance) should help that shouldn't it?

Now I have changed the right wide man to winger anyway, I am unsure if a wing back behind him is really worth it, surely they will run into/towards the same space? Never sure really what position / role to play behind a winger. An IF seems to obviously point to a wing back... to me anyway.

Can you advise why 'Get stuck in' would not fit in to this? Taking off Tight marking, I can see the sense in that, although I am only set as standard def line and standard LOE... I thought maybe you just wouldn't use it on high or higer LOE etc.

 

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20 minutes ago, LCFCEaves31 said:

Firstly, I cannot believe I have missed the fact my CM (a) is on the same side as WB (a)… a good balance was one of the few things I thought I had learnt over the years :(

No problem mate. It can happen to anybody. 

 

21 minutes ago, LCFCEaves31 said:

Having said that, playing a DM (or half-back in this instance) should help that shouldn't it?

Having a holding DM generally allows you to be a bit more adventurous with roles and duties compared to a system without a DM. But its effect is not unlimited. The DM alone cannot cover for all weaknesses (defensive gaps).

If, for example, you played both the CM and wide forward on the same side on attack duty, but the fullback in a more conservative role - that would be less of an issue. Example: FBsu, CMat and Wat. 

28 minutes ago, LCFCEaves31 said:

Now I have changed the right wide man to winger anyway, I am unsure if a wing back behind him is really worth it, surely they will run into/towards the same space? Never sure really what position / role to play behind a winger

This also depends on the role/duty of the CM. If the AMR is still winger on support and MCR is still CM on attack, then the RB - depending on the type of the player who plays the role - can be either FB on support or WB on defend or IWB on defend or IWB on support. In case you decide to go with FBsu or WBde, you can use the "sit narrower" PI for this fullback. 

 

36 minutes ago, LCFCEaves31 said:

Can you advise why 'Get stuck in' would not fit in to this?

Because out-of-possession instruction that serve to encourage players to be more aggressive - such as get stuck in, tighter marking and more urgent pressing - naturally tend to disrupt your defensive shape to varying degrees. However. that is not such a big problem when you play in a system that is more tight and compact, because your players are closer to each other when defending, which means - if one makes a mistake being drawn out of position, there are nearby teammates to quickly cover for him. 

 

46 minutes ago, LCFCEaves31 said:

I thought maybe you just wouldn't use it on high or higer LOE etc

i definitely wouldn't use it with a higher DL and/or LOE, but not only then. DL and LOE - while very important in general - are still just parts of the bigger (tactical) picture. 

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10 hours ago, Experienced Defender said:

This also depends on the role/duty of the CM. If the AMR is still winger on support and MCR is still CM on attack, then the RB - depending on the type of the player who plays the role - can be either FB on support or WB on defend or IWB on defend or IWB on support. In case you decide to go with FBsu or WBde, you can use the "sit narrower" PI for this fullback. 

I have Max Aarons in this position, he is one of the best players we have... and probably the best wing back in the division (I took over Watford after they'd been relegated), so I want to get the most out of him. Playing as a WB (d) or FB (s) I am not sure I would see his full potential... I am really unsure on what to do here. 

10 hours ago, Experienced Defender said:

Because out-of-possession instruction that serve to encourage players to be more aggressive - such as get stuck in, tighter marking and more urgent pressing - naturally tend to disrupt your defensive shape to varying degrees. However. that is not such a big problem when you play in a system that is more tight and compact, because your players are closer to each other when defending, which means - if one makes a mistake being drawn out of position, there are nearby teammates to quickly cover for him. 

i definitely wouldn't use it with a higher DL and/or LOE, but not only then. DL and LOE - while very important in general - are still just parts of the bigger (tactical) picture. 

Ok that makes sense, thanks. I will try and implement a lot of this, this week... 

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4 hours ago, LCFCEaves31 said:

I have Max Aarons in this position, he is one of the best players we have... and probably the best wing back in the division (I took over Watford after they'd been relegated), so I want to get the most out of him. Playing as a WB (d) or FB (s) I am not sure I would see his full potential... I am really unsure on what to do here

If he's really so good - and btw I like this player - you can try him as IWB on support and see how it works in your tactic. If you find that it's too risky defense-wise, you can change his duty to defend and possibly add the Overlap right TI. 

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25 minutes ago, Experienced Defender said:

If he's really so good - and btw I like this player - you can try him as IWB on support and see how it works in your tactic. If you find that it's too risky defense-wise, you can change his duty to defend and possibly add the Overlap right TI. 

I am glad you mentioned IWB and Overlap right... I don't get it, but have seen others use it but not explain how it works? Surely an inverted WB cannot overlap, as he is drifting in-field? Not overlapping on the outside down the wing?

Edited by LCFCEaves31

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27 minutes ago, LCFCEaves31 said:

I am glad you mentioned IWB and Overlap right... I don't get it, but have seen others use it but not explain how it works?

I mentioned the Overlap only if you play him on defend duty. Otherwise, it would be too risky because the Overlap TI (slightly) increases the mentality of the fullback. And given that he already has both the CM and winger on attack duties in front of him - I guess you understand why that would be too risky. 

 

31 minutes ago, LCFCEaves31 said:

Surely an inverted WB cannot overlap, as he is drifting in-field? Not overlapping on the outside down the wing?

The overlap instruction serves 2 basic purposes (functions) in this particular case:

1. precisely because the IWB as a role does not naturally overlap, the OL TI is there to encourage him to use wider areas a bit more when it makes sense in a given situation;

2. at the same time, the overlap slightly decreases the mentality of the winger (i.e. wide forward or wide midfielder), thereby creating a more dynamic interplay on that side/flank by moving the players a bit closer together and adding some variety to their movement and positioning. 

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2 hours ago, Experienced Defender said:

I mentioned the Overlap only if you play him on defend duty. Otherwise, it would be too risky because the Overlap TI (slightly) increases the mentality of the fullback. And given that he already has both the CM and winger on attack duties in front of him - I guess you understand why that would be too risky. 

 

The overlap instruction serves 2 basic purposes (functions) in this particular case:

1. precisely because the IWB as a role does not naturally overlap, the OL TI is there to encourage him to use wider areas a bit more when it makes sense in a given situation;

2. at the same time, the overlap slightly decreases the mentality of the winger (i.e. wide forward or wide midfielder), thereby creating a more dynamic interplay on that side/flank by moving the players a bit closer together and adding some variety to their movement and positioning. 

Ok thanks. I do now have Winger on support duty, the IF on the opposite flank is on attack... I think I will just have to play a few games and see what happens with him. 

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Keep seeing my centre backs go out and take throw in's... why? When the wing backs on the pitch are assigned to take them? Must point out this is FM19... and it is only happening on our own half.

Edited by LCFCEaves31

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@Experienced Defender would be good if you could have a quick look at the below? I have used it for one game, won 4-1. The goal we conceded was there only shot on target (as per usual...) from a set-piece. 

The pleasing thing was how involved Aaron's was... shows I know absolutely nothing, as I wasn't sure what he would offer as an IWB, but he scored twice :lol:

Other role changes - CF (s) changed to F9 (s) - initial thoughts, created a little more space for on rushing Midfielders, didn't offer much of a goal threat. I guess I want all action, a role where the players offers short passes and movement in the build up but can also be a threat in the box (if you can find him little space)

CM (a) to AP (a) - The thinking behind this (probably way off) wanted someone who looked for space and dropped off at times for IWB / Winger to run into but also gets forward to play someone in... the CM (a) was good at getting into the box but he seemed too tightly marked all the time, too static.

HB (d) to DLP (d) - Not really sure what the HB role offered, that DLP doesn't... 

I also made a couple TI changes and more importantly, the mentality... 

20200118123603_1.jpg

20200118123810_1.jpg

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The halfback would have given you an aggressive defence, he could also leave you vulnerable if he ends up too far away. I tend to favour HBs and BWM when i want more aggressive coverage.The DLP/AP combination, helps keep the ball and allows you to work the ball. Defensively you could also notice that he is closer to your backline but not nearly as aggressive as the HB. Its very similar to a system I am using for FM20 and should do well. The DLP could easily be changed to a DM without too much loss.

For some games you could drop your defensive line to Standard if you feel that your attacks are committing too many players. Other than that there is nothing wrong with it, it looks almost similar to something I am using with just a few different roles. If you want more goals to come from the striker consider changing him to a DLF(A), then you have a role who will drop deep and still bust a gut to get inside the box, where he could be a twin terror along with the IF(A) should the IWB or the AP get a chance to do a cross or diagonal.

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2 hours ago, LCFCEaves31 said:

20200118123603_1.jpg

 

2 hours ago, LCFCEaves31 said:

@Experienced Defender would be good if you could have a quick look at the below? I have used it for one game, won 4-1. The goal we conceded was there only shot on target (as per usual...) from a set-piece. 

The pleasing thing was how involved Aaron's was... shows I know absolutely nothing, as I wasn't sure what he would offer as an IWB, but he scored twice

I also see in the screenshot that you are 1st on the table, so it seems you have found a tactic that works for you :thup:

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3 hours ago, LCFCEaves31 said:

Keep seeing my centre backs go out and take throw in's... why? When the wing backs on the pitch are assigned to take them? Must point out this is FM19... and it is only happening on our own half

It happens to me as well. I guess it's because the game (ME) does not count throw-ins in your own half as "attacking throw-ins". 

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16 minutes ago, Experienced Defender said:

 

I also see in the screenshot that you are 1st on the table, so it seems you have found a tactic that works for you :thup:

I am, but there have been a couple 1-0 wins or 1-1 draws... not looked amazing, but looking better defensively in open play. Goals I am conceding now are set-pieces so working on those. Thanks for the help so far. 

 

6 minutes ago, Experienced Defender said:

It happens to me as well. I guess it's because the game (ME) does not count throw-ins in your own half as "attacking throw-ins". 

Should this be raised in the bugs section? As it can cause me to be quite open... and surely shouldn't be happening?

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1 hour ago, Rashidi said:

The halfback would have given you an aggressive defence, he could also leave you vulnerable if he ends up too far away. I tend to favour HBs and BWM when i want more aggressive coverage.The DLP/AP combination, helps keep the ball and allows you to work the ball. Defensively you could also notice that he is closer to your backline but not nearly as aggressive as the HB. Its very similar to a system I am using for FM20 and should do well. The DLP could easily be changed to a DM without too much loss.

For some games you could drop your defensive line to Standard if you feel that your attacks are committing too many players. Other than that there is nothing wrong with it, it looks almost similar to something I am using with just a few different roles. If you want more goals to come from the striker consider changing him to a DLF(A), then you have a role who will drop deep and still bust a gut to get inside the box, where he could be a twin terror along with the IF(A) should the IWB or the AP get a chance to do a cross or diagonal.

Thanks, that is comforting to hear that it isn't a million miles off... 

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46 minutes ago, LCFCEaves31 said:

Should this be raised in the bugs section? As it can cause me to be quite open... and surely shouldn't be happening?

Not sure if that's considered a bug, but you can report it there anyway and see what the response will be. 

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4 hours ago, LCFCEaves31 said:

Keep seeing my centre backs go out and take throw in's... why? When the wing backs on the pitch are assigned to take them? Must point out this is FM19... and it is only happening on our own half.

It shouldn't happen AT ALL. If the wingbacks are assigned and they are on the pitch then you should see them take the throw ins. You could try doing first choice, 2nd choice etc, but it shouldn't happen unless.....those central defenders have some good throw in attributes. Ah and we are all talking about FM20, I thought you were on 20. The tactic should still work the same, and i don't recall that being an issue at all, but I would raise it as a bug if it keeps happening in spite of you setting takers up.

 

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Ok so results are still ok in the main, however we just lost 4-2 at home... 2 goals coming from corners. I am having issues with the amount of goals we are conceding from corners in general, not just this game 

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Check your corner routines i did a post somewhere on this forums where someone asked for help with corners. There is a strategy to corners, and if you set them right, you should be hard to score against unless ur defenders are poor.

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So since we all agreed this tactic looks good and has brought about a few wins... I have now lost 3 on the trot... all the teams are in the lower half of the league.

I really don't get it. The complete opposite is now happening, to what I was watching before. No movement, no attacking flair, no quick inter play (on a side note, the IWB now is having no impact whatsoever, the complete extreme of a few games ago). We make stupid mistakes at the back, which weren't happening. 

We have gone from the Swansea game down hill to looking like the Stoke game every week.. :seagull:

20200118192409_1.jpg

20200118192352_1.jpg

Edited by LCFCEaves31

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Why so inconsistent... really awful results against teams down the bottom

20200118220136_1.jpg
 

The dressing room atmosphere isn’t great, has been poor since the start as everybody wants to leave. A lot of key players have the ‘unhappy status’, does this have much of an impact in reality? 

Edited by LCFCEaves31

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14 ore fa, Rashidi ha scritto:

Check your corner routines i did a post somewhere on this forums where someone asked for help with corners. There is a strategy to corners, and if you set them right, you should be hard to score against unless ur defenders are poor.

 

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23 hours ago, Rashidi said:

The halfback would have given you an aggressive defence, he could also leave you vulnerable if he ends up too far away. I tend to favour HBs and BWM when i want more aggressive coverage.The DLP/AP combination, helps keep the ball and allows you to work the ball. Defensively you could also notice that he is closer to your backline but not nearly as aggressive as the HB. Its very similar to a system I am using for FM20 and should do well. The DLP could easily be changed to a DM without too much loss.

For some games you could drop your defensive line to Standard if you feel that your attacks are committing too many players. Other than that there is nothing wrong with it, it looks almost similar to something I am using with just a few different roles. If you want more goals to come from the striker consider changing him to a DLF(A), then you have a role who will drop deep and still bust a gut to get inside the box, where he could be a twin terror along with the IF(A) should the IWB or the AP get a chance to do a cross or diagonal.

Well as I have previously mentioned, this still isn't working. 

There is something I am missing, which for whatever reason, I am not seeing. For you, the legend himself, to say there doesn't look anything wrong, felt awesome, it felt like I was getting it, even though I was making some silly mistakes previously...

But the tactic still isn't getting results. I have just replayed the same game 5 times... lost three times, drawn twice. Same pattern every time. We take the lead, we look dominant, then we concede. 3 of the goals were from outside the area, their player, with all the time in the world. One was a penalty, one was a mix up between goalkeeper and full back, another was the same full back just headed to their striker and said 'there you go mate, knock yourself out', one was a last minute corner... I am constantly fighting back to get in the lead, to then just have it taken away from me. Twice we have lost in the last minute of the game. 

Not once, in all those instances have I won or defended properly. So again... there is something seriously wrong, I cannot be as close as I think (or as anyone else thinks). 

I just don't get it anymore. 

I have attached a couple of the games, if anyone can be bothered to watch and help. If not, don't worry. 

Watford v Derby.pkm Watford v Derby v.2.pkm

Edited by LCFCEaves31

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8 hours ago, sovy666 said:

 

This has been quite an eye opener... I have changed some of my set-up to match this, but it has made me realise what a short and poor team we are being able to defend set-pieces... 

Is there something similar for attacking set-pieces?

 

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Two more games, two more defeats. I cannot believe how bad the defending is... the goals the AI score, it's either my defenders just backing off (into our own penalty are) giving them all the time in the world to score, a corner, or a switch of play were my FB seems to just wonder off and again, giving their players the freedom of London to score... 

Is there anyway of showing the goals on here, without having to show the whole game? You need to see it to believe it. Also... why... why I am not getting any results, when you guys have helped and agreed on the formation and tactics looking much better? 

QPR v Watford.pkm Watford v Blackburn.pkm

Edited by LCFCEaves31

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You are using the last tactic you posted? I have not the time to look at matches right now (I can later to see if I am correct). However the last thing you want to do from the tactic you have posted is counter-press. Both your CMs and both your FBs are going to be out of position when you lose the ball. You want them to get back into position. That does not mean you have to regroup, but you do not want the two CMs to get caught in a counter press, it will leave you so undermanned in the middle. And thus ultra vulnerable to counter attacks. I'd use a directed press - by which I mean set up the press for the players you want to press using PIs (or OIs to target areas of the pitch). I would not counter press from this set of roles though.

You are also going to be so vulnerable to long balls towards the flanks here. Especially against good two striker pairings. The FBs are going to be far out of position if you lose the ball, and it will take them time to get back into position (and counter-press may also hurt them trying to do this). That will stress your CBs massively, and relies on them being very good (and the DMC being excellent defensively also). Couple this with a high defensive line and attacking mentality, you are now asking teams to counter attack you. Far more than before. The attacking mentality is something I use situationally against weaker teams to break them down. It is not something I use as a default. And if I score I change it immediately. You are also now extremely narrow. Only one player offers any width at all. This will make it harder to break sides down. I think you need a rethink on what you want to do with the ball, and then make sure this is not too vulnerable to counter attacks.

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57 minutes ago, sporadicsmiles said:

You are using the last tactic you posted? I have not the time to look at matches right now (I can later to see if I am correct). However the last thing you want to do from the tactic you have posted is counter-press. Both your CMs and both your FBs are going to be out of position when you lose the ball. You want them to get back into position. That does not mean you have to regroup, but you do not want the two CMs to get caught in a counter press, it will leave you so undermanned in the middle. And thus ultra vulnerable to counter attacks. I'd use a directed press - by which I mean set up the press for the players you want to press using PIs (or OIs to target areas of the pitch). I would not counter press from this set of roles though.

You are also going to be so vulnerable to long balls towards the flanks here. Especially against good two striker pairings. The FBs are going to be far out of position if you lose the ball, and it will take them time to get back into position (and counter-press may also hurt them trying to do this). That will stress your CBs massively, and relies on them being very good (and the DMC being excellent defensively also). Couple this with a high defensive line and attacking mentality, you are now asking teams to counter attack you. Far more than before. The attacking mentality is something I use situationally against weaker teams to break them down. It is not something I use as a default. And if I score I change it immediately. You are also now extremely narrow. Only one player offers any width at all. This will make it harder to break sides down. I think you need a rethink on what you want to do with the ball, and then make sure this is not too vulnerable to counter attacks.

Hi. I have tried what you are suggesting, I took off counter-press and just asked the front three to press... it didn't work (results wise anyway). Without counter-pressing, their defenders and deep lying midfielders seemed to have all the time in the world to pick a pass and work their way to goal. It makes sense what you are saying and someone has already recomended it... so I tried it.  Maybe there is another part of the tactic that I didn't change that had a detrmental effect, but it is hard to understand all the effects these changes have on each other (well I find it hard anyway). 

In relation to what I posted, I think all I have changed in the last couple of games is the line of engagement and defensive line... I am sure (it was late last night...) I have dropped them both to Standard, but left Counter-press on... 

What you are also saying is that Rashidi's tactics that are very similar to this, shouldn't be working for him? This is what confuses a lot of people.  One opinion says it looks fine, the other says it is destined for failure. Who is right?? By the way, I am not saying you are wrong, as again it makes some sense as I said above. 

On counterpressing in general... is there a formation and set of roles that actually works then? The default settings for Geggenpress are similar to what I have above I believe... so is that wrong? If so, why do SI set it up like that?  I am even more confused I think than before :(

Edited by LCFCEaves31

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On 18/01/2020 at 13:42, Rashidi said:

The halfback would have given you an aggressive defence, he could also leave you vulnerable if he ends up too far away. I tend to favour HBs and BWM when i want more aggressive coverage.The DLP/AP combination, helps keep the ball and allows you to work the ball. Defensively you could also notice that he is closer to your backline but not nearly as aggressive as the HB. Its very similar to a system I am using for FM20 and should do well. The DLP could easily be changed to a DM without too much loss.

For some games you could drop your defensive line to Standard if you feel that your attacks are committing too many players. Other than that there is nothing wrong with it, it looks almost similar to something I am using with just a few different roles. If you want more goals to come from the striker consider changing him to a DLF(A), then you have a role who will drop deep and still bust a gut to get inside the box, where he could be a twin terror along with the IF(A) should the IWB or the AP get a chance to do a cross or diagonal.

See above... @sporadicsmiles

Edited by LCFCEaves31

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7 hours ago, LCFCEaves31 said:

What you are also saying is that Rashidi's tactics that are very similar to this, shouldn't be working for him?

Rashidi does not just build a tactic in isolation though. He builds it with his players in mind. Watching his content on youtube, he will always consider the players and how they can perform in any given role. The tactic you have shown here is very demanding of a lot of players. Tactics do not really exist in isolation. At the very least you have to consider the players you have, and the tactics and players of the team you are playing. Which is another factor. Watching Rashidi, he will change things up when he sees something he does not like in a game. And to be fair I would have made the same criticisms of this tactic had it been Rashidi posting them looking for feedback. 

7 hours ago, LCFCEaves31 said:

On counterpressing in general... is there a formation and set of roles that actually works then? The default settings for Geggenpress are similar to what I have above I believe... so is that wrong? If so, why do SI set it up like that?  I am even more confused I think than before :(

I mean counterpressing is not necessary always wrong. If a team is sitting super deep against you without any real attacking threat besides a long striker, press away. If they are passing through your press, or getting the ball forward quickly and dangerously, then there is no point in it. It is situational. Rarely is there anything that you should use at all times. I will always abandon a high press against sides who are good enough to play around it, because at the moment by defenders are not good enough to deal with the consequences of a failed press. In this case the fact that you have so many players high up the pitch when counter-press triggers can cause problems. If your fullbacks get pulled into that press from their position in CM, you can get in trouble. This only needs to happen a few times a game. But it is a risk-reward thing. If you think the reward of pressing outweighs the risk, then go for it. 

I'm gonna take a look at a couple of your games anyway, because then I can actually get a feel for how you are playing and see what it is like, which is always better than theoretical knowledge. 

Edit: You are in FM19, right? So I will take a look at the game next chance I get.

Edited by sporadicsmiles

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2 hours ago, sporadicsmiles said:

Rashidi does not just build a tactic in isolation though. He builds it with his players in mind. Watching his content on youtube, he will always consider the players and how they can perform in any given role. The tactic you have shown here is very demanding of a lot of players. Tactics do not really exist in isolation. At the very least you have to consider the players you have, and the tactics and players of the team you are playing. Which is another factor. Watching Rashidi, he will change things up when he sees something he does not like in a game. And to be fair I would have made the same criticisms of this tactic had it been Rashidi posting them looking for feedback. 

I mean counterpressing is not necessary always wrong. If a team is sitting super deep against you without any real attacking threat besides a long striker, press away. If they are passing through your press, or getting the ball forward quickly and dangerously, then there is no point in it. It is situational. Rarely is there anything that you should use at all times. I will always abandon a high press against sides who are good enough to play around it, because at the moment by defenders are not good enough to deal with the consequences of a failed press. In this case the fact that you have so many players high up the pitch when counter-press triggers can cause problems. If your fullbacks get pulled into that press from their position in CM, you can get in trouble. This only needs to happen a few times a game. But it is a risk-reward thing. If you think the reward of pressing outweighs the risk, then go for it. 

I'm gonna take a look at a couple of your games anyway, because then I can actually get a feel for how you are playing and see what it is like, which is always better than theoretical knowledge. 

Edit: You are in FM19, right? So I will take a look at the game next chance I get.

I’m in FM19 yes. 
Thank you 

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Just loaded game up, this is what I've used last couple of games. I thought I had better post it, as I have tried a few different things over last couple of days, I think I had forgotten exactly what I was using! This sometimes changes in game, sometimes the wing backs are changed to WB (s) or (a) as apposed to IWB. And sometimes I play wider... I know things need to be amended slightly in games, depending on what you see or feel is needed, what I am really looking for is a solid foundation to start from (and in the long term, a better understanding of TI's and roles)

20200120203228_1.jpg

 

EDIT: I have just realised I didn't mention how I have changed from Attacking to Positive. I think Attacking was probably a bit of an overkill in terms of the risk we were taking and wasn't helping the issues I have been experiencing. Since then results and performances have improved, we do not look as open. Would still love to hear what you thougth if you have time to watch any of the games. 

Edited by LCFCEaves31

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