Turning a match around

[Maldini's Heir]

Does anyone have any advice for turning around a match when you’re losing or need a goal?

My games seem to go one of two ways: I take the lead and see out the game or I fall behind and struggle to come back. 

I have three formations I use: 433, 451 and 442. 

I usually play 433/balanced in home matches against weaker sides (although I’m finding I can’t even do that).
 

451/cautious is for away matches and the bigger teams.

442 is my formation for when I’m chasing goals.

I usually play with short passing and disciplined and then gradually speed up the tempo, give my players the chance to be more expressive and make passing more direct.

In the second half if I haven’t scored I’ll tell the players to hit early crosses and to pass into space and move up a mentality e.g. from balanced to attacking.
 

I find ultra attacking to be particularly useless. It seems to be a command specifically to do nothing. I’d be interested if anybody has had any luck with this mentality.

442 is my 80 minute tactic. Direct passing, lump it forward to a target man and goal poacher. Or sometimes I try a deep lying forward if I feel I need to drag the defence out.

Generally however I don’t have much luck turning matches around. 
 

Any suggestions?

PS I don’t know how to upload tactics and I don’t really have much interested in learning how to so if you can’t work out what I’m doing wrong from the above I’ll probably just give up.

 

 

 

 

[rockpie]

39 minutes ago, Maldini's Heir said:

Does anyone have any advice for turning around a match when you’re losing or need a goal?

Whatever changes you make should make sense not just in terms of ... but also in terms of what you're seeing and how the opposition are playing against you.

Pretty sure I've suggested this to you before, but here's a thread I did on Making Good Decisions During Matches which might give you an idea / reminder of the kind of things you can look out for when it comes to changing a game:

But yeah it's about trying to notice things, use whatever highlight mode and camera angle works best for you to do that. At first, you might need to watch Comprehensive Highlights to get a feel for it, then move to Extended once you're more confident that you're spotting the right things, etc.

If all your attacks look congested / compressed into the middle of the pitch, where the opposition is easily defending -- this might suggest you need to Play Wider.

If your players are rushing passes or hoofing the ball upfield under no pressure and giving possession away even though the opposition are not pressing much, you might find more success with a Lower Tempo. The opposite could be true if your players seem to be dwelling on the ball too long and the opposition are using intense pressing, in that case a high tempo would help to beat their press.

Etc. Etc.

Edited January 8, 2020 by rockpie

[pheelf]

1 hour ago, Maldini's Heir said:

Does anyone have any advice for turning around a match when you’re losing or need a goal?

My games seem to go one of two ways: I take the lead and see out the game or I fall behind and struggle to come back. 

I have three formations I use: 433, 451 and 442. 

I usually play 433/balanced in home matches against weaker sides (although I’m finding I can’t even do that).
 

451/cautious is for away matches and the bigger teams.

442 is my formation for when I’m chasing goals.

I usually play with short passing and disciplined and then gradually speed up the tempo, give my players the chance to be more expressive and make passing more direct.

In the second half if I haven’t scored I’ll tell the players to hit early crosses and to pass into space and move up a mentality e.g. from balanced to attacking.
 

I find ultra attacking to be particularly useless. It seems to be a command specifically to do nothing. I’d be interested if anybody has had any luck with this mentality.

442 is my 80 minute tactic. Direct passing, lump it forward to a target man and goal poacher. Or sometimes I try a deep lying forward if I feel I need to drag the defence out.

Generally however I don’t have much luck turning matches around. 

Any suggestions?

PS I don’t know how to upload tactics and I don’t really have much interested in learning how to so if you can’t work out what I’m doing wrong from the above I’ll probably just give up.

There is no single approach which will work to turn a game around against every opposition, every time. That is true in real football and also in FM.

I think you need to change your approach to the way you play the game. Stop thinking of mentality as a range between defensive football and attacking football. it's not, even though the game presents it as such (I covered this in my misconceptions when building tactics post).

Playing on a higher mentality doesn't mean that you will suddenly put the oppositions goal under siege and score goals. What it means is that you will play with more risk. Now that increased risk can actually work against your objective of breaking a defense down. Especially, if you are just aimlessly pumping the ball forward as soon as you win possession. How does that pull the opposition defenders out of position and give you the space your players need to attack?

What you want to achieve is to create QUALITY opportunities not simply increase the quantity of poor opportunities.

In response to your PS point:

How much effort does it take for you to take a screenshot (F12 in steam) of your tactics page and drag and drop the file into a post (or post it on a picture hosting site)? If you want help then you need to provide something for others to be able to analyze. Mentality and formation isn't enough to give meaningful advice as roles and duties and the players you are playing in those roles is just as important (speaks to another point I made in my misconceptions post...don't view things in isolation).

Btw...I don't know how old you are but giving an ultimatum to strangers on a forum isn't the best way to engage with them and ask for help, just so you know.

All the best

[HanziZoloman]

well I am completely with @pheelf and @rockpie adding that I have a balanced well suited tactic for my side and try to win games around with shouts (as @herne79 has suggested in an interesting experiment) there is much more to get from shouts. Also I try to change the game with substitutes. before that I was always watching complete match and looking for space opportunities to use and adjusted my tactic to use this space more cleverly, well I tried to do that as it proofed very difficult for me. 

If you have a good balanced tactic for your games try to turn games with a good subsstitution and of course by motivating your players with good shouts. Sometimes that means shouting "stick together" for not getting behind or another goal before halftime and sometimes it means shouting "get creative" or "show some passion" to lift the presure you are under. It works pretty well if you have a solid tactic as a ground and it's much fun because you can do something actually.

Edited January 8, 2020 by HanziZoloman

[Maldini's Heir]

16 hours ago, rockpie said:

Whatever changes you make should make sense not just in terms of ... but also in terms of what you're seeing and how the opposition are playing against you.

Pretty sure I've suggested this to you before, but here's a thread I did on Making Good Decisions During Matches which might give you an idea / reminder of the kind of things you can look out for when it comes to changing a game:

But yeah it's about trying to notice things, use whatever highlight mode and camera angle works best for you to do that. At first, you might need to watch Comprehensive Highlights to get a feel for it, then move to Extended once you're more confident that you're spotting the right things, etc.

If all your attacks look congested / compressed into the middle of the pitch, where the opposition is easily defending -- this might suggest you need to Play Wider.

If your players are rushing passes or hoofing the ball upfield under no pressure and giving possession away even though the opposition are not pressing much, you might find more success with a Lower Tempo. The opposite could be true if your players seem to be dwelling on the ball too long and the opposition are using intense pressing, in that case a high tempo would help to beat their press.

Etc. Etc.

Thanks. I did take a look at this and it was helpful.

I think I probably need to try and go wider in some of the games where I'm not getting much traction.

[Maldini's Heir]

14 hours ago, pheelf said:

There is no single approach which will work to turn a game around against every opposition, every time. That is true in real football and also in FM.

I think you need to change your approach to the way you play the game. Stop thinking of mentality as a range between defensive football and attacking football. it's not, even though the game presents it as such (I covered this in my misconceptions when building tactics post).

Playing on a higher mentality doesn't mean that you will suddenly put the oppositions goal under siege and score goals. What it means is that you will play with more risk. Now that increased risk can actually work against your objective of breaking a defense down. Especially, if you are just aimlessly pumping the ball forward as soon as you win possession. How does that pull the opposition defenders out of position and give you the space your players need to attack?

What you want to achieve is to create QUALITY opportunities not simply increase the quantity of poor opportunities.

In response to your PS point:

How much effort does it take for you to take a screenshot (F12 in steam) of your tactics page and drag and drop the file into a post (or post it on a picture hosting site)? If you want help then you need to provide something for others to be able to analyze. Mentality and formation isn't enough to give meaningful advice as roles and duties and the players you are playing in those roles is just as important (speaks to another point I made in my misconceptions post...don't view things in isolation).

Btw...I don't know how old you are but giving an ultimatum to strangers on a forum isn't the best way to engage with them and ask for help, just so you know.

All the best

I do find playing more defensive formations against weaker teams is better. 

But do you know what?

That sucks.

When I'm losing and my adrenaline is pumping, I shouldn't think "now is the time to drop down to cautious.......". That's not how anything works.

I think the mentality thing is a failing of the game.

I'm sorry, regardless of whether or not it results in a goal, pushing more people forward and hitting more direct passes should pen the other team in the other half particularly if they're the weaker team. 

When players do that we should be seeing goal mouth scrambles and last ditch tackles (excitement!) even if the opposition then breaks on the counter and scores the last minute winner. That is the sort of excitement and reality that the Match Engine is missing. People say the Match Engine is not an accurate representation of what's happening but a) that's not good enough in 2020 and b) whatever representation it is trying to show is not reflective of the tactics and commands.

We do have to play within the limitations of the game so I will probably revert to playing more cautious football against weaker teams. Fun.

[Maldini's Heir]

14 hours ago, HanziZoloman said:

well I am completely with @pheelf and @rockpie adding that I have a balanced well suited tactic for my side and try to win games around with shouts (as @herne79 has suggested in an interesting experiment) there is much more to get from shouts. Also I try to change the game with substitutes. before that I was always watching complete match and looking for space opportunities to use and adjusted my tactic to use this space more cleverly, well I tried to do that as it proofed very difficult for me. 

If you have a good balanced tactic for your games try to turn games with a good subsstitution and of course by motivating your players with good shouts. Sometimes that means shouting "stick together" for not getting behind or another goal before halftime and sometimes it means shouting "get creative" or "show some passion" to lift the presure you are under. It works pretty well if you have a solid tactic as a ground and it's much fun because you can do something actually.

Thanks for the tip about shouts. That's not something I'm doing at all so will give it a go.

Thanks everyone for your responses I do appreciate them. My posts are usually written tongue in cheek with an extra layer of drama so don't take it personally. From your responses I've learnt: try playing wider, be careful with mentalities and use shouts. 

We'll see how I go. Back to the feedback thread to moan (joking).

[HanziZoloman]

No problem at all mate! I wish you some good matchluck. Note that you can also give shouts to single players. If want to get into halftime without getting (further) behind you can shout at your whole team „tighten up“ or just your Defense Line. Espescially if you’re still hoping for the counter.

just yesterday I got behind 1-mill against Celtic in a close match and shouted at my two most creative Midfielders “get creative” and bingo the equaliser came after a pass of one of them. Could be luck but could also be the right words at right players just intime and a little bit of luck

well I had a Becker-Fist at the kitchen table

[pheelf]

9 hours ago, Maldini's Heir said:

I do find playing more defensive formations against weaker teams is better. 

But do you know what?

That sucks.

When I'm losing and my adrenaline is pumping, I shouldn't think "now is the time to drop down to cautious.......". That's not how anything works.

I think the mentality thing is a failing of the game.

I'm sorry, regardless of whether or not it results in a goal, pushing more people forward and hitting more direct passes should pen the other team in the other half particularly if they're the weaker team. 

When players do that we should be seeing goal mouth scrambles and last ditch tackles (excitement!) even if the opposition then breaks on the counter and scores the last minute winner. That is the sort of excitement and reality that the Match Engine is missing. People say the Match Engine is not an accurate representation of what's happening but a) that's not good enough in 2020 and b) whatever representation it is trying to show is not reflective of the tactics and commands.

We do have to play within the limitations of the game so I will probably revert to playing more cautious football against weaker teams. Fun.

I understand what you're saying as it's counter intuitive to play on a lower mentality if trying to score and get back into a game.

When you make the change to a higher mentality do you also change your formation at the same time?

I ask as perhaps that might be a way of you getting what you want. If going very attacking that means that the ball is going to be played as quickly into the front line as possible with the most intense pressing high up the pitch. Therefore if you stick with the 4-4-2 and the opposition have gone with 3 at the back you are likely going to be outnumbered when the ball is played into your front line. Maybe in combination with the mentality change perhaps having 3 strikers and 3 attacking midfielders in those desperate situations might help as you would then have a load of players in the oppositions final third to try and overwhelm them. I'm not sure whether it will work but it's worth a try.

All the best

Edited January 9, 2020 by pheelf

[optimusprimal82]

Not sure if you've seen this/might find it useful OP? Not sure if it's too much detail & hate plugging my own stuff but it's something I drew up for last years game to help a few friends out with exactly these sort of questions and it snowballed from there into a full blown thread (link also below). I've not played anywhere near as much of FM20 as I did 19 (mainly due to time) but a lot of the trigger points are still the same in 20 from the games I have played.... Hope it's of some help/you find a way in any case!

 

[Experienced Defender]

On 08/01/2020 at 12:20, pheelf said:

Stop thinking of mentality as a range between defensive football and attacking football. it's not, even though the game presents it as such (I covered this in my misconceptions when building tactics post).

Playing on a higher mentality doesn't mean that you will suddenly put the oppositions goal under siege and score goals. What it means is that you will play with more risk. Now that increased risk can actually work against your objective of breaking a defense down. Especially, if you are just aimlessly pumping the ball forward as soon as you win possession

This 

[Experienced Defender]

13 hours ago, Maldini's Heir said:

I do find playing more defensive formations against weaker teams is better. 

But do you know what?

That sucks.

When I'm losing and my adrenaline is pumping, I shouldn't think "now is the time to drop down to cautious.......". That's not how anything works

Nobody said that you should use either a "defensive formation" or drop the mentality to "cautious" (or whichever). You completely missed the point @pheelf made. 

[Maldini's Heir]

9 hours ago, pheelf said:

I understand what you're saying as it's counter intuitive to play on a lower mentality if trying to score and get back into a game.

When you make the change to a higher mentality do you also change your formation at the same time?

I ask as perhaps that might be a way of you getting what you want. If going very attacking that means that the ball is going to be played as quickly into the front line as possible with the most intense pressing high up the pitch. Therefore if you stick with the 4-4-2 and the opposition have gone with 3 at the back you are likely going to be outnumbered when the ball is played into your front line. Maybe in combination with the mentality change perhaps having 3 strikers and 3 attacking midfielders in those desperate situations might help as you would then have a load of players in the oppositions final third to try and overwhelm them. I'm not sure whether it will work but it's worth a try.

All the best

Yes I do. I usually move to 442 and then if I’m really desperate 325. But the more attacking I make my team the less attacking they become.....

[Maldini's Heir]

5 hours ago, Experienced Defender said:

Nobody said that you should use either a "defensive formation" or drop the mentality to "cautious" (or whichever). You completely missed the point @pheelf made. 

I know that.

I was simply pointing out that that is what I find to be the most effective way of beating weaker teams and how much that sucks.....

Part of the reason I set up this thread was to see if I could inject some more fun into the game because at the moment I’m getting a lot 1:0s going either way.

[Maldini's Heir]

I know how much people love talking about my re-starts but the game hit me with 5 games in a row where I failed to score so I lost and went back to the very first game in the run. 
 

On a re-start the problem went away. Scored in 3/5 games including 3:0 v Brescia when I had lost 1:0 (to Brescia, who are 17th) the first time.

I think this points to a mental problem in my Milan team (which in fairness is the exact same problem they have in real life). If my players miss chances they basically collapse into dribbling messes. I’ve tried countering this by being more re-assuring than critical in my team talks.

I think one of my biggest frustrations with this game is that they seem to have done too good a job of re-creating Milan in real life.....

[Maldini's Heir]

9 hours ago, optimusprimal82 said:

Not sure if you've seen this/might find it useful OP? Not sure if it's too much detail & hate plugging my own stuff but it's something I drew up for last years game to help a few friends out with exactly these sort of questions and it snowballed from there into a full blown thread (link also below). I've not played anywhere near as much of FM20 as I did 19 (mainly due to time) but a lot of the trigger points are still the same in 20 from the games I have played.... Hope it's of some help/you find a way in any case!

 

Thanks. Will check it out.

I also think, like real life, my players are the problem which is sort of a problem becuase I don’t tend to be too active on the transfer market.