Struggling with Stoke in Championship

[lim]

I have been a lurker mostly on this forum, during the last 2-3 versions of FM,  and have tried to take what people post on the forum to my game and put it into practice but I am failing miserably.

I am currently 8th in the championship with just 10 games left, I am seriously struggling to  win games and make chances, on my Stoke City save. I am still on FM19, and I am reluctant to buy FM20 until I have mastered this version.

Can anyone provide any advice?

I currently  playing a 4-4-2.

My current setup is ;

AFa TMs

Wa     BtBsu DLPd  IWs

FBsu    BPCDde    CDde    WBsu

GKde

Starting 11 ;

GK – Jack Butland

DL – Josh Tymon

DR – Moritz Bauer

DCL – Bruno Martins Indi

DCR – Ryan Shawcross

MCL – Joe Allen

MCR – Ryan Woods

ML – James McClean

MR - Thibaud Verlinden

STR - Sam Vokes

STL - Benik Afobe

 

One thing I have noticed is both of my center midfielders  have preferred moves as 'plays short simple passes' which i know isn't good, as I would prefer them to distribute the ball around the whole pitch.

 

Mentality is Positive, sometimes I change it to attacking to try and get a goal back.

In possession – shorter passing, play out of defence, high tempo.

In transition – counter, roll it out, distribute to CBs and FBs (and counter-press against weak sides)

Out of possession – standard d-line, standard LOE, use tighter marking, use offside trap

 

Any help would be much appreciated.

Edited January 7, 2020 by lim

[Vribo FC]

Maybe you are doing just fine? Stoke are 21:st right now, 1 pt clear of relegation.

[False Nein]

I hope other much wiser people than myself will comment but having Counter active with Shorter passing, Roll it-out (to CBs and FBs) seems unlikely to produce quick counter-attacks?

[lim]

1 hour ago, Vribo FC said:

Maybe you are doing just fine? Stoke are 21:st right now, 1 pt clear of relegation.

 

I get what your saying, but this is a very solid squad in my opinion, this was the squad that were in the premiership so there are some good players in it I feel its just about getting it out of them.

 

 

[Experienced Defender]

3 hours ago, lim said:

I am currently 8th in the championship with just 10 games left

What's the media prediction / board expectation? 

 

3 hours ago, lim said:

I currently  playing a 4-4-2.

My current setup is ;

AFa TMs

Wa     BtBsu DLPd  IWs

FBsu    BPCDde    CDde    WBsu

GKde

The setup of R&D looks decent itself. However, looking at your players, the first thing I would do is swap your strikers' positions - Vokes (TM) on the left, Afobe (AF) on the right - so as to better suit their (right)footedness. That may seem irrelevant, but can have a greater impact than you would expect. 

What worries me more is your midfield in terms of players (i.e. those you picked as preferred choices). I am not sure if they can offer good enough protection to your defense, which for its part is also not great. Maybe 442 is not an optimal system for your team. You might need a formation that employs a DM position. I think the wide 4132 would better suit your team.

 

3 hours ago, lim said:

Mentality is Positive, sometimes I change it to attacking to try and get a goal back.

In possession – shorter passing, play out of defence, high tempo.

In transition – counter, roll it out, distribute to CBs and FBs (and counter-press against weak sides)

Out of possession – standard d-line, standard LOE, use tighter marking, use offside trap

I would definitely remove both tight marking and offside trap. Neither is your defense good enough to play with OT (plus, you don't use a high DL), nor is your overall tactic suited to a manner of defending that involves tight marking.

On the one hand, you seem to insist on slow and patient build-up of your attacks (PoD, short pass, distribute to defense, roll out). But then on the other hand, you selected higher tempo (under the Positive mentality, which already encourages comparatively faster attacking play by itself). So it's not quite clear what style of football you are actually trying to implement?

[lim]

18 hours ago, Experienced Defender said:

What's the media prediction / board expectation? 

 

The setup of R&D looks decent itself. However, looking at your players, the first thing I would do is swap your strikers' positions - Vokes (TM) on the left, Afobe (AF) on the right - so as to better suit their (right)footedness. That may seem irrelevant, but can have a greater impact than you would expect. 

What worries me more is your midfield in terms of players (i.e. those you picked as preferred choices). I am not sure if they can offer good enough protection to your defense, which for its part is also not great. Maybe 442 is not an optimal system for your team. You might need a formation that employs a DM position. I think the wide 4132 would better suit your team.

 

I would definitely remove both tight marking and offside trap. Neither is your defense good enough to play with OT (plus, you don't use a high DL), nor is your overall tactic suited to a manner of defending that involves tight marking.

On the one hand, you seem to insist on slow and patient build-up of your attacks (PoD, short pass, distribute to defense, roll out). But then on the other hand, you selected higher tempo (under the Positive mentality, which already encourages comparatively faster attacking play by itself). So it's not quite clear what style of football you are actually trying to implement?

Thanks, I made those changes we looked fairly solid, but we only created 3 half chances but despite this we ended up winning 1-0 against Sheffield Wednesday at home, after that I got sacked. Looking at the media prediction we were predicted to finish 5th in the league and we were 13 points off this with about 8 games left.

So with me being sacked, iv started the season again, I will let you know how I get on. 

 

As for not doing tight marking and offside trap is this because my defenders are relatively slow?. Both have acceleration of 10 and pace of about 10.

 

I want to play patient build up play and play the odd ball over the top for Afobe to run onto, I want to create a well-balanced tactic, that will create chances from through-balls and crosses, I don't want to be one-dimensional.

 

What would your wide 4-1-3-2 look like?

 

I'm also interested in what you do when you are losing 1-0 at home with 60 minutes  gone by and you haven't created any good chances... what would you do to create more of a goal threat? Would you up the mentality or  maybe change some of the duties from support to attack?

Edited January 8, 2020 by lim

[HanziZoloman]

Well I suppose you’ll need some good passing and vision with your defenders and a deep playmaker to make it happen.

[Experienced Defender]

4 hours ago, lim said:

but we only created 3 half chances

Why do you think that 3 HCs is a bad record? Especially given that match statistics can be misleading sometimes (that's why I always do my own post-match analysis). And also considering that your team is not particularly strong (honestly speaking).

 

4 hours ago, lim said:

we ended up winning 1-0 against Sheffield Wednesday at home, after that I got sacked

You won a match and got sacked after that ??? Which logically means you would have been sacked anyway, but if the board had already intended to sack you - I'm wondering why didn't they do that before that match 

 

4 hours ago, lim said:

Looking at the media prediction we were predicted to finish 5th in the league and we were 13 points off this with about 8 games left

Well, in that case, you actually did underachieve. 

 

4 hours ago, lim said:

As for not doing tight marking and offside trap is this because my defenders are relatively slow?. Both have acceleration of 10 and pace of about 10

As for the offside trap - both because they are slow and because offside trap makes more sense in combination with a higher DL (which on the other hand is not a good idea precisely because your defs are slow).

As for tight marking, it's not only about your defenders. Because TM as a team instruction applies to the whole team. But a more important reason is that your tactic does not really suit the use of TM. It makes more sense in primarily defensive and compact setups, preferably employing a bottom-heavy formation (e.g. 4141 with the flat midfield 4). But if you switch to the 4132 wide, then tight marking could make more sense (again depending on how the tactic as a whole is set up and your style of play). 

4 hours ago, lim said:

I want to play patient build up play and play the odd ball over the top for Afobe to run onto, I want to create a well-balanced tactic, that will create chances from through-balls and crosses

Sounds like some hybrid style that combines elements of both possession and counter-attacking football. 

 

4 hours ago, lim said:

What would your wide 4-1-3-2 look like?

I would create 2 variants of 4132 - a regular (primary) one and a more defensive/counter-attacking one. 

The regular one could be set up like this:

TMsu   AF

IWsu       CMat      WMsu

Ade

FBat   CDde  CDde  WBsu

GK

Mentality - would start with Balanced, with an option of occasionally switching to Positive (as I see fit).

In possession - shorter passing, slightly higher tempo

In transition - distribute to CBs and FBs

Out of possession - everything on default

Player instructions:

TMsu and CMat - close down more

WBsu - sit narrower, cross more often

CMat - roam from position

IWsu - sit narrower (and take more risks if the player has the right attributes)

And the counter-attacking one:

TMat   AF

IWsu         BBM        WMsu

Ade

WBsu  CDde  NCBde  WBsu

GK

Mentality - Balanced (occasionally Positive)

In possession - slightly higher tempo, hit early crosses

In transition - counter

Out of possession - standard DL, lower LOE, get stuck in

Player instructions:

AF - roam from position

IWsu - sit narrower

BBM - take more risks

[lim]

19 hours ago, Experienced Defender said:

Why do you think that 3 HCs is a bad record? Especially given that match statistics can be misleading sometimes (that's why I always do my own post-match analysis). And also considering that your team is not particularly strong (honestly speaking).

 

You won a match and got sacked after that ??? Which logically means you would have been sacked anyway, but if the board had already intended to sack you - I'm wondering why didn't they do that before that match 

 

Well, in that case, you actually did underachieve. 

 

As for the offside trap - both because they are slow and because offside trap makes more sense in combination with a higher DL (which on the other hand is not a good idea precisely because your defs are slow).

As for tight marking, it's not only about your defenders. Because TM as a team instruction applies to the whole team. But a more important reason is that your tactic does not really suit the use of TM. It makes more sense in primarily defensive and compact setups, preferably employing a bottom-heavy formation (e.g. 4141 with the flat midfield 4). But if you switch to the 4132 wide, then tight marking could make more sense (again depending on how the tactic as a whole is set up and your style of play). 

Sounds like some hybrid style that combines elements of both possession and counter-attacking football. 

 

I would create 2 variants of 4132 - a regular (primary) one and a more defensive/counter-attacking one. 

The regular one could be set up like this:

TMsu   AF

IWsu       CMat      WMsu

Ade

FBat   CDde  CDde  WBsu

GK

Mentality - would start with Balanced, with an option of occasionally switching to Positive (as I see fit).

In possession - shorter passing, slightly higher tempo

In transition - distribute to CBs and FBs

Out of possession - everything on default

Player instructions:

TMsu and CMat - close down more

WBsu - sit narrower, cross more often

CMat - roam from position

IWsu - sit narrower (and take more risks if the player has the right attributes)

And the counter-attacking one:

TMat   AF

IWsu         BBM        WMsu

Ade

WBsu  CDde  NCBde  WBsu

GK

Mentality - Balanced (occasionally Positive)

In possession - slightly higher tempo, hit early crosses

In transition - counter

Out of possession - standard DL, lower LOE, get stuck in

Player instructions:

AF - roam from position

IWsu - sit narrower

BBM - take more risks

Well, I started the season well with the 4-4-2, but after 4 games we started struggling again, we are lacking at creating chances we have had games where we have had 60% possession but have created one half chance. Am I best off introducing another attacking role into my 4-4-2?

[Bluebird123]

28 minutes ago, lim said:

Well, I started the season well with the 4-4-2, but after 4 games we started struggling again, we are lacking at creating chances we have had games where we have had 60% possession but have created one half chance. Am I best off introducing another attacking role into my 4-4-2?

Are you still playing Woods/Allen in the middle? 

[pheelf]

41 minutes ago, lim said:

Well, I started the season well with the 4-4-2, but after 4 games we started struggling again, we are lacking at creating chances we have had games where we have had 60% possession but have created one half chance. Am I best off introducing another attacking role into my 4-4-2?

Sometimes the journey is more important than the destination. 

The ultimate aim is to be capable of building a solid tactic that can make you achieve your targets with Stoke but if you don't take the time to learn how your tactic operates then you are going to get stuck in a perpetual cycle. 

My best advice to you would be to have an idea in your mind of how you expect your team to play. Then you need to actually watch and analyze your matches to see if your vision is coming to fruition. In the first instance, don't pay so much attention to statistics and focus on whether your players are carrying out your orders. Preferably, do this in pre-season where the results of your games don't matter. By building an understanding of your tactic you can then more effectively react to issues such as the one you stated in the post I quoted.

Personally, I don't think a 4-4-2 is best suited to a short passing style given the spacing between the players over the pitch. If you wish to play that way with the 4-4-2 then you need to try and reduce the horizontal and vertical gaps between the players when you have the ball. I'd advise that you also take on board what @Experienced Defender told you about the issues with your players. If you are unable to address that issue in the transfer market then you need to make compromises in the way you instruct your team to play.

All the best