Looking for feedback (4-1-4-1)

[TobyChocolate]

Since I have never been good at making tactics in Football Manager I thought Barcelona was a good team to go with due to its quality squad. I just created this tactic and I'm wondering what could be improved on it. 

I would like my team to control the games with short passing and patiently waiting for a good run behind the defence

I'm thinking about having at least one of the central midfielders having a "More Direct Passes" PI to add some directness to get behind the defence, but maybe that could ruin the patient short passing play if he's told to be more direct and instead just looking for a longer ball?

 

Edited January 7, 2020 by TobyChocolate
Added things

[Angus Osborne]

I don't think you need to worry about having a central midfielders with a More Direct Passes PPM. If they have enough vision they'll do it anyway.

FWIW (and I don't consider myself an expert) I don't like the IWB and IF set-up on the right at all, as they're both cutting in. I'd go for a WB(S). And I think you only need the Anchorman if the opposition has two or three strikers.

[TobyChocolate]

11 hours ago, Angus Osborne said:

I don't think you need to worry about having a central midfielders with a More Direct Passes PPM. If they have enough vision they'll do it anyway.

FWIW (and I don't consider myself an expert) I don't like the IWB and IF set-up on the right at all, as they're both cutting in. I'd go for a WB(S). And I think you only need the Anchorman if the opposition has two or three strikers.

Thank you I will change those roles 

Edited January 7, 2020 by TobyChocolate
wrong word

[HanziZoloman]

What about adding a RPM with Barca there should be good enough player for that role.

I am not as good with tactics as some guys here but from what I have read here and there it’s a possibility for you to combine more creative roles with roles that create space. For example the IF will more likely dribble inside from the flank, if you have a creative role like an APM or WPM he will look for the pass instead of dribbling. Adding a CWB or WB behind the creative player will cause overlaps and create passing options.

if you want to control by passing you need to create options and space and pass the ball.

Edited January 7, 2020 by HanziZoloman

[cocoadavid]

11 hours ago, TobyChocolate said:

I'm thinking about having at least one of the central midfielders having a "More Direct Passes" PPM to add some directness to get behind the defence, but maybe that could ruin the patient short passing play if he's told to be more direct and instead just looking for a longer ball?

IMO in a patient, short passing approach it is more than welcome to have a player (a good passer) in midfield who is ready to make more risky, penetrative, longer passes. However, you have to take into account many things, not just player traits, because a lot of things can encourage players to make more direct passes, and if all of these things stack up, it may lead to too many risky passes, you have to strike a balance. The following things (I may miss some) encourage longer, riskier passes:

1) There are player traits that suit this:
- likes to switch ball to other flank
- tries killer balls often
- tries long range passes

2) There are midfield roles that are more likely to make a greater variety of passes by default
- every playmaking role (DLP, AP, Reg, Tre, Eng)
- mezzala on attack duty is more likely to make riskier passes

3) Player Instructions:
- more direct passes
- more risky passes

4) Mentality:
- more attacking mentalities encourage riskier passes

5) Team Iinstructions
- Pass Into Space
- Be More Expressive (players are more likely to think outside of the instructions and are more likely to use their player traits)

For example, in your tactic, if we take your TIs (Be More Expressive) and Mentality (Positive), and you have a playmaking role, and that playmaker has 1 or 2 player traits from the mentioned ones, than that would be enough I think, and I would not add the 'more direct' passes PI. However, if your playmaker and Mez does not have any trait, than I would suggest experimenting with either 'more direct passes' to the playmaker, or adding 'more risky passes' to the Mez (since in Barcelona he is likely to have good passing skills).

Watch the matches and passing statistics, if you see that your desired player's passing percentage is too low, chances are that he makes too many risky passes. On the other hand, if his passing percentage is near 100%, but does not make any key passes, he may be playing it too safe (or has no good passing options).

 

12 hours ago, TobyChocolate said:

 

The combination of Work Ball Into Box and Be More Expressive is very welcome, at Barca you have players who benefit from these TIs.
I would suggest some minor changes to the player roles and TIs.

• Currently on your right side none of your players provide width, because of this I would swap the FB and IWB, since on your left side the Winger already provides width. Your IF on the right is cutting inside, so it makes sense to use a FB or WB on his side.
• I would swap the Mez and DLP and woud use the Mez on attack duty. Why? Since your Mez is likely to get further forward and the Winger is also in the final third, and IWB would provide better coverage behind them. And maybe would use the DLP as a RPM or AP(s).
• I would change Busquets to a DM(s). With an IWB on defend duty and a support duty FB/WB on the other hand, using an Anchorman would be too conservative, at Barce you can take more risks. 
• I would add Overlap Ti to the left side. I just love the IWB role with the Overlap instruction, it adds greater variety. This way playing out from the back the IWB stays narrow, but when the ball is already in the final third, he is more likely to drift wide and provide a passing option behind narrow the defences.  The IWB's position on the field is also just simply better with the Overlap TI in my opinion, he stays a little wider than an IWB by default.

This is an example how I would set it up with making minimal changes to your set of roles:

--------------DLF(a)--------------
W(s)-------------------------IF(a)
------Mez(a)--DLP(s)----------
--------------DM(s)--------------
IWB(d)-BPD---BPD----WB(s)

added TI:
- overlap left

I hope my advices were useful.

 

[TobyChocolate]

14 minutes ago, cocoadavid said:

IMO in a patient, short passing approach it is more than welcome to have a player (a good passer) in midfield who is ready to make more risky, penetrative, longer passes. However, you have to take into account many things, not just player traits, because a lot of things can encourage players to make more direct passes, and if all of these things stack up, it may lead to too many risky passes, you have to strike a balance. The following things (I may miss some) encourage longer, riskier passes:

1) There are player traits that suit this:
- likes to switch ball to other flank
- tries killer balls often
- tries long range passes

2) There are midfield roles that are more likely to make a greater variety of passes by default
- every playmaking role (DLP, AP, Reg, Tre, Eng)
- mezzala on attack duty is more likely to make riskier passes

3) Player Instructions:
- more direct passes
- more risky passes

4) Mentality:
- more attacking mentalities encourage riskier passes

5) Team Iinstructions
- Pass Into Space
- Be More Expressive (players are more likely to think outside of the instructions and are more likely to use their player traits)

For example, in your tactic, if we take your TIs (Be More Expressive) and Mentality (Positive), and you have a playmaking role, and that playmaker has 1 or 2 player traits from the mentioned ones, than that would be enough I think, and I would not add the 'more direct' passes PI. However, if your playmaker and Mez does not have any trait, than I would suggest experimenting with either 'more direct passes' to the playmaker, or adding 'more risky passes' to the Mez (since in Barcelona he is likely to have good passing skills).

Watch the matches and passing statistics, if you see that your desired player's passing percentage is too low, chances are that he makes too many risky passes. On the other hand, if his passing percentage is near 100%, but does not make any key passes, he may be playing it too safe (or has no good passing options).

 

The combination of Work Ball Into Box and Be More Expressive is very welcome, at Barca you have players who benefit from these TIs.
I would suggest some minor changes to the player roles and TIs.

• Currently on your right side none of your players provide width, because of this I would swap the FB and IWB, since on your left side the Winger already provides width. Your IF on the right is cutting inside, so it makes sense to use a FB or WB on his side.
• I would swap the Mez and DLP and woud use the Mez on attack duty. Why? Since your Mez is likely to get further forward and the Winger is also in the final third, and IWB would provide better coverage behind them. And maybe would use the DLP as a RPM or AP(s).
• I would change Busquets to a DM(s). With an IWB on defend duty and a support duty FB/WB on the other hand, using an Anchorman would be too conservative, at Barce you can take more risks. 
• I would add Overlap Ti to the left side. I just love the IWB role with the Overlap instruction, it adds greater variety. This way playing out from the back the IWB stays narrow, but when the ball is already in the final third, he is more likely to drift wide and provide a passing option behind narrow the defences.  The IWB's position on the field is also just simply better with the Overlap TI in my opinion, he stays a little wider than an IWB by default.

This is an example how I would set it up with making minimal changes to your set of roles:

--------------DLF(a)--------------
W(s)-------------------------IF(a)
------Mez(a)--DLP(s)----------
--------------DM(s)--------------
IWB(d)-BPD---BPD----WB(s)

added TI:
- overlap left

I hope my advices were useful.

 

Thank you this really helped 

[Experienced Defender]

15 hours ago, TobyChocolate said:

 

16 hours ago, TobyChocolate said:

Since I have never been good at making tactics in Football Manager I thought Barcelona was a good team to go with due to its quality squad. I just created this tactic and I'm wondering what could be improved on it. 

I would like my team to control the games with short passing and patiently waiting for a good run behind the defence

The first thing I noticed is that you need better attacking support on the left flank. Given that you have a winger in AML, I would change the LB into WB on support, so as to help provide more support front and work more closely with both DLP and winger.

Alternatively - and that's btw my favorite role combination - you can change the AML into IW on support and the LB into FB on attack. That way you'll get a natural overlap and generally create nice interplay between DLP, LB and AML. 

I would also swap around Arthur and De Jong, so Arthur would be the mezzala in MCR and DJ the DLP in MCL. 

Busquts can/should be changed into the standard DM on defend duty instead of the anchor-man. Your setup is not so much adventurous that you need such a conservative and defensive-minded DM role as anchor. Plus, you are Barca - a world-class side that can afford to take some more risk.

The rest of the setup looks okay. Maybe Griezmann as a trequartista could be an idea for you to consider. Not only that the role would fit well with the rest of the system, but it also suits Griezmann as a player.

In terms of instructions... I would first remove the very narrow width and instead leave it on default. As Barcelona, you are mostly going to face opponents who will defend deep and tight, primarily looking to protect the very central areas of their defense. So why would you want to limit your players' options by narrowing the play. 

An in-possession instruction I would add is - Overlap right. In order to make the RB slightly less conservative and encourage more dynamic interplay between him, the mezzala and AMR. 

Given that you are already playing out of defense, I would not insist on the specific distribution to CBs and/or FBs. Let the keeper pick the optimal option depending on the situation. Especially as he is a SK. Therefore, I would remove both the Roll it out and Distribute to CBs/FBs instructions. 

Not sure why you opted for narrow defensive width, but I guess you have some logical reason. I don't say it's either right or wrong, just curious to hear your reasoning behind.

Btw, I have an idea for an alternative setup of roles and duties in case yours turns out to lack sufficient attacking penetration. 

[TobyChocolate]

1 hour ago, Experienced Defender said:

 

The first thing I noticed is that you need better attacking support on the left flank. Given that you have a winger in AML, I would change the LB into WB on support, so as to help provide more support front and work more closely with both DLP and winger.

Alternatively - and that's btw my favorite role combination - you can change the AML into IW on support and the LB into FB on attack. That way you'll get a natural overlap and generally create nice interplay between DLP, LB and AML. 

I would also swap around Arthur and De Jong, so Arthur would be the mezzala in MCR and DJ the DLP in MCL. 

Busquts can/should be changed into the standard DM on defend duty instead of the anchor-man. Your setup is not so much adventurous that you need such a conservative and defensive-minded DM role as anchor. Plus, you are Barca - a world-class side that can afford to take some more risk.

The rest of the setup looks okay. Maybe Griezmann as a trequartista could be an idea for you to consider. Not only that the role would fit well with the rest of the system, but it also suits Griezmann as a player.

In terms of instructions... I would first remove the very narrow width and instead leave it on default. As Barcelona, you are mostly going to face opponents who will defend deep and tight, primarily looking to protect the very central areas of their defense. So why would you want to limit your players' options by narrowing the play. 

An in-possession instruction I would add is - Overlap right. In order to make the RB slightly less conservative and encourage more dynamic interplay between him, the mezzala and AMR. 

Given that you are already playing out of defense, I would not insist on the specific distribution to CBs and/or FBs. Let the keeper pick the optimal option depending on the situation. Especially as he is a SK. Therefore, I would remove both the Roll it out and Distribute to CBs/FBs instructions. 

Not sure why you opted for narrow defensive width, but I guess you have some logical reason. I don't say it's either right or wrong, just curious to hear your reasoning behind.

Btw, I have an idea for an alternative setup of roles and duties in case yours turns out to lack sufficient attacking penetration. 

The narrow defensive width was put in there by mistake and I changed it later. I have made the changes you suggested and hopefully it will work out well, thanks for the feedback!

[Fittefrosk]

5 hours ago, Experienced Defender said:

 

The first thing I noticed is that you need better attacking support on the left flank. Given that you have a winger in AML, I would change the LB into WB on support, so as to help provide more support front and work more closely with both DLP and winger.

Alternatively - and that's btw my favorite role combination - you can change the AML into IW on support and the LB into FB on attack. That way you'll get a natural overlap and generally create nice interplay between DLP, LB and AML. 

I would also swap around Arthur and De Jong, so Arthur would be the mezzala in MCR and DJ the DLP in MCL. 

Busquts can/should be changed into the standard DM on defend duty instead of the anchor-man. Your setup is not so much adventurous that you need such a conservative and defensive-minded DM role as anchor. Plus, you are Barca - a world-class side that can afford to take some more risk.

The rest of the setup looks okay. Maybe Griezmann as a trequartista could be an idea for you to consider. Not only that the role would fit well with the rest of the system, but it also suits Griezmann as a player.

In terms of instructions... I would first remove the very narrow width and instead leave it on default. As Barcelona, you are mostly going to face opponents who will defend deep and tight, primarily looking to protect the very central areas of their defense. So why would you want to limit your players' options by narrowing the play. 

An in-possession instruction I would add is - Overlap right. In order to make the RB slightly less conservative and encourage more dynamic interplay between him, the mezzala and AMR. 

Given that you are already playing out of defense, I would not insist on the specific distribution to CBs and/or FBs. Let the keeper pick the optimal option depending on the situation. Especially as he is a SK. Therefore, I would remove both the Roll it out and Distribute to CBs/FBs instructions. 

Not sure why you opted for narrow defensive width, but I guess you have some logical reason. I don't say it's either right or wrong, just curious to hear your reasoning behind.

Btw, I have an idea for an alternative setup of roles and duties in case yours turns out to lack sufficient attacking penetration. 

can you post your idea on the setup for more attacking penetration?
I run a similar, but sometimes I just can't break down some of the parked busses i meet. 
 

[Experienced Defender]

45 minutes ago, Fittefrosk said:

can you post your idea on the setup for more attacking penetration?

It's basically pretty similar to the one already discussed. Just a couple of small tweaks:

F9

IFat                                  IWsu

DLPsu   MEZat

HB

WBsu    CDde  BPDde  IWBsu

SKsu

[Fittefrosk]

28 minutes ago, Experienced Defender said:

It's basically pretty similar to the one already discussed. Just a couple of small tweaks:

F9

IFat                                  IWsu

DLPsu   MEZat

HB

WBsu    CDde  BPDde  IWBsu

SKsu

thank you, 
any TI or PI? you would do?

[HanziZoloman]

Usually he does less TIs, let me guess:

tempo: standard/ passing standard maybe occasionally wbib. LOE lower/ standard DL standard. Overlap on left.

balanced or positive mentality.

right?

[Experienced Defender]

37 minutes ago, Fittefrosk said:

any TI or PI? you would do?

- Positive mentality, shorter passing, play out of defence, be more expressive, work ball into box (assuming you are managing a strong/top team)

- counter-press (but not all the time)

- higher DL, higher or standard LOE, offside trap

PIs: only split block

 

[HanziZoloman]

What does this split block mean? You also mentioned it in the United thread.

[Experienced Defender]

10 minutes ago, HanziZoloman said:

What does this split block mean?

When you tell your 3-5 most advanced players to close down more instead of telling the whole team to do that.

[HanziZoloman]

Thanks man