Jump to content
Sports Interactive Community
yorkie87

Help needed with my AMC in a 4231

Recommended Posts

Posted (edited)

Struggling to get good ratings out of my AMC in a 4231. Play a balanced style, shorter passing, focus play through centre, look for overlap on right and left, pass Into space, normal width and play out of defence. Played around with advanced playmaker and attacking midfielder in support and attacking. Not getting much joy. Any help appreciated. 

Edited by yorkie87

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Post a screenshot of the tactic (with all roles, duties and instructions). You can give a player a role that "ideally" suits him, but if that role does not fit in with the rest of your tactic, it's not going to work. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Does your AMC have good vision and passing?

It would be good to see the player your using Attributes and PPM's as well as the tactic, roles, duties, and instructions.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)

In FM20, the position of the AMC, even if you use someone like Messi that has come deep to get the ball, result in the AMC on pitch position being to far into the defenders, for him to really be anything else than a striker.

 

If you design the tactics around an STL striker and AMCR "deep striker" that seems to be the best you can get out of AMC's.

 

Through in the case of high passing, decision making and vision players like Messi, you can get insane performance out of using them in MC instead. I managed to get consistently 9.0 scores from Messi played as MC up until the season he retired. I got next to nothing out of him as an AMC (But that was before I started thinking of AMC as a deep striker.). AML naturally result in Messi scoring more goals, but it also result in those 6.3 games, where he is a waste of space on the pitch, but in MC he never have bad games and is consistently carrying the rest of the team.

 

I just don't see a way to make a tactics where MC/Defenders pass the ball to an AMC that then create a chance for forwards, because of the position of the AMC player. If you are playing with AMC's you need MC's and defenders to be the creative players.

Edited by Miravlix

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)

Which role are you talking about @Miravlix? If I understand what you're saying, I find the opposite & an AMC on support will sit too deep, if you line up 4-2-3-1 with the 3 being on support duty, he'll be the deepest of the 3, even going as far back as FM15 this is the case so it's something that hasn't been changed over the years & is working as intended

I'm playing FM18 right now & from this screenshot you can see, the left winger is on Attack, Fekir is the AM(S) & Robben is the IF(S) out on the right. Tolisso on the ball is DLP(S)   

Fekir was MOM last game was an assist & 8 key passes 

Untitled.thumb.png.fd264576cdc5d21c9b5c35e49a6f6897.png

 

Anyway, sorry OP, get you tactic posted up so we can have a look :thup:

 

Seconds after I posted that he overlaps Muller, gets into the box & scores :D 

Untitled.thumb.png.9d66b55b30521c808cc6d0e8b5787eea.png

 

Edited by Johnny Ace

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I've played with AMC's most years, because I tended to build my teams around Dybala, but in FM20 even with Messi as AMC, the MC's behind him just ignore him and never pass the ball to him. So I ended up with AML + AMC + AMR all standing on the edge of the box, with the defenders on top of them, so the only option was long shots or wing backs. Losing four of my players resulted in rather lackluster performances against defensive team.

 

Though the ME in FM20 seems troubled, so an Attacking, Pass Into Space, Shorter Passing with high decision making players result in the majority of goals being from through balls, making it moot how much the opposition defend, because most goals is based on bypassing defenders completely. I'm hoping that SI will consider the throughballs a flaw, so I'm trying to plan for the day I actually have to score goals after the opposition players has all run back to stand in their box.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
20 minutes ago, yorkie87 said:

20200105130715_2.thumb.jpg.091802a6fe2f74f4bb7755abd20af29d.jpg

 

Thanks for your help

Okay, there's plenty of nopes there for me in creating a balanced, sensible tactic :D

Both Wingers on Attack, both Wing Backs on Support, Dribble More, Overlaps, two BPD's, two playmakers in close proximity, Focus through the middle, Higher Lines, Counter, I just can't get my head around it all   

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 minutes ago, Johnny Ace said:

Okay, there's plenty of nopes there for me in creating a balanced, sensible tactic :D

Both Wingers on Attack, both Wing Backs on Support, Dribble More, Overlaps, two BPD's, two playmakers in close proximity, Focus through the middle, Higher Lines, Counter, I just can't get my head around it all   

I can asnwer this pretty well.

Balanced is due to the awful use of mentality, balanced allows you to fulfil what you want through roles where as the others make it counter what people want e.g.positive is said to be attacking and any defensive roles is useful but counter what you want.

Modern football allows for wingbacks more than full backs these days even with "wingers" although WB imo should be full backs on support or IWB's. 

Dribble more is fine if he has technical players, overlaps is an awful TI if roles permitt it. 2 BPD's is fine, especially if he has a DLP-D/S. 2 playmakers aren't close but the GAME says they are, the CAM drops low into the midfield rather than find the spaces inbetween the lines. 

Middle play is trying to involve the CAM and higherLOE and counter is fine. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)
43 minutes ago, yorkie87 said:

20200105130715_2.thumb.jpg.091802a6fe2f74f4bb7755abd20af29d.jpg

Well, as I supposed, the problem is your tactic as a whole, not the AMC himself (although we don't know the player, so he might also be a problem, but that's another pair of shoes).

First, you have a lot of needless instructions (tactical overkill). I would immediately remove the following: focus through the middle, overlap left and right and more urgent pressing. I would also drop the LOE to standard instead of higher, in order to achieve better compactness when defending (especially as you use a top-heavy formation such as 4231).

Run at defence is probably also not necessary, but given that I don't know your players, I cannot tell you if the instruction makes sense or not in this particular case. Anyway, I would still rather remove it than keep it.

Pass into space is a type of instruction that should be used situationally, rather than as part of a regular (starting) tactic. 

In terms of roles and duties, not only that your flanks are very one-dimensional, but also defensively very vulnerable with both wide forwards on attack duty

Then you have 2 playmakers (DLP and AP) in close vicinity

Therefore - taking all that into account - attacking-wise, there is almost no variety in the way you are playing.

Btw, AF as a lone striker tends to struggle when played in control and/or possession-oriented systems, due to the lack of space for him to operate within. It makes (a lot) more sense in counter-attacking tactics, that employ a lower LOE and less aggressive style of defending overall (among other things). 

I hope these observations will help you create a more balanced tactic that would also lead to your AMC performing better. If you have any additional questions, or would like me to give you an example of how you could set up a tactic, you are welcome :thup:

Edited by Experienced Defender

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

AMC seems to have a use defensively that I didn't think of, it help's by putting a player in that part of the pitch in a high press tactics, that otherwise leaves a hole.

 

I changed a 4-2-4 Wide to a 4-2-3-1 Wide Asymmetric STL AMCR and played the match at full and the opposition was mid league team that thought playing a cautious 4-2-3-1 Wide against us was okay, My striker proved them wrong by getting a hattrick in the first few minutes of the match.  The AMC did seem rather disappointing as a passing/creative player, the curse that result in the other players avoiding to pass to the AMC seems to still be in effect, even while this was against a fairly open team, that left the AMC standing in not entirely covered positions. Only pass to him so far is one where my MC and AMC collided (if the game had collisions), so he wasn't really needed in that position.

 

The position

seems to contribute something valuable to a pressing tactics.

doesn't seem to contribute much to the creative/passing play.

it did score our 5th goal and kinda scored the 6th, but it ended up being an assist because the striker stole it, by deflecting the ball so little I had to check  3 times to see why the wrong player was credited with the goal. (So a Deep Striker)

 

 

It was the Domestic Cup Final, so not a "normal" match, resulting in the opposition actually trying to play.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 05/01/2020 at 13:56, Experienced Defender said:

Well, as I supposed, the problem is your tactic as a whole, not the AMC himself (although we don't know the player, so he might also be a problem, but that's another pair of shoes).

First, you have a lot of needless instructions (tactical overkill). I would immediately remove the following: focus through the middle, overlap left and right and more urgent pressing. I would also drop the LOE to standard instead of higher, in order to achieve better compactness when defending (especially as you use a top-heavy formation such as 4231).

Run at defence is probably also not necessary, but given that I don't know your players, I cannot tell you if the instruction makes sense or not in this particular case. Anyway, I would still rather remove it than keep it.

Pass into space is a type of instruction that should be used situationally, rather than as part of a regular (starting) tactic. 

In terms of roles and duties, not only that your flanks are very one-dimensional, but also defensively very vulnerable with both wide forwards on attack duty

Then you have 2 playmakers (DLP and AP) in close vicinity

Therefore - taking all that into account - attacking-wise, there is almost no variety in the way you are playing.

Btw, AF as a lone striker tends to struggle when played in control and/or possession-oriented systems, due to the lack of space for him to operate within. It makes (a lot) more sense in counter-attacking tactics, that employ a lower LOE and less aggressive style of defending overall (among other things). 

I hope these observations will help you create a more balanced tactic that would also lead to your AMC performing better. If you have any additional questions, or would like me to give you an example of how you could set up a tactic, you are welcome :thup:

Thank you. I’ve made a few tweaks. Just out of interest why drop the more urgent pressing? 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 hours ago, yorkie87 said:

Just out of interest why drop the more urgent pressing?

Primarily in order to maintain more solid defensive shape. With higher DL and LOE (plus the Prevent short GKD), your manner of defending is already aggressive enough. Plus, the fact that you use a top-heavy formation without a DM (4231) makes the defensive risk even bigger. If you want to put more pressure on the opposition during their attacking build-ups, a split block is a lot safer option than telling the entire team to press more. However, if you decide to go with the split block, I would suggest you remove the Prevent short GKD and also drop the LOE slighty (to standard instead of higher). Tactical balance is key, both when attacking and defending.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)

I have removed pass into space, overlaps, focus through middle, lowered LOE and DL, prevent short GKD, put right winger on support and striker as DLF attack. Bit reluctant to do the changes as been winning everything but that’s probably more down to my squad being amazing as I’m like 16 seasons into the game. 
should I change the DLP to a CM-d? 
would you suggest to stay with a balanced mentality or look to change that too? 
again, Thanks for your help. 

Edited by yorkie87

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
18 minutes ago, yorkie87 said:

lowered LOE and DL

Who said that you should lower DL? 

 

19 minutes ago, yorkie87 said:

Bit reluctant to do the changes as been winning everything

If you've been "winning everything" with your original tactic, then you shouldn't have changed it at all. I thought you started the thread because your tactic was not working. There is no reason to change an otherwise successful tactic only to get better ratings for a single player. Even though I personally don't like the tactic you posted here, the only thing that's important is whether it produces good results for you or not. Everything else is irrelevant IMHO.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm using 5 star players and no one works in AMC position,not Messi or anyone else I tried.

 

ST AML AMC AMR MC MC DL DC DC DR and the AMC keeps getting 6.0 - 6.5 scores unless the player scores, the AMC just isn't contributing anything to general play, no key passes, no assists, most of the time a MC and the AMC end up on top of each other pre-box play and the other players just doesn't pass the ball to the AMC that often, making it a wasted man on the pitch.

 

While I personally think a 4-2-4 Wide seems like it should be tactically icky, it at least get all the players firing and contributing resulting in good score for all players, Changing one ST to an AMC seems make the entire team have problems. It just change position and passes of players, resulting in it being much harder to create chances and win.

 

I can't tactically see the difference between a AML ST ST AMR vs AML ST AMC AMR front line, except the AMC one seems to be a slightly better defensive formation and I feel the AMC offensively get in better positions than when he was a ST, but it just doesn't result in good performance.

 

Maybe the AML/AMR is the problem or using double DM's instead of double MC's, but I don't have the players to test that change, also I play at a level that result in all teams playing some type of defensive football against us, it could be the AMC simply drown against a defensive team.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, Miravlix said:

I'm using 5 star players and no one works in AMC position,not Messi or anyone else I tried.

 

ST AML AMC AMR MC MC DL DC DC DR and the AMC keeps getting 6.0 - 6.5 scores unless the player scores, the AMC just isn't contributing anything to general play, no key passes, no assists, most of the time a MC and the AMC end up on top of each other pre-box play and the other players just doesn't pass the ball to the AMC that often, making it a wasted man on the pitch.

 

While I personally think a 4-2-4 Wide seems like it should be tactically icky, it at least get all the players firing and contributing resulting in good score for all players, Changing one ST to an AMC seems make the entire team have problems. It just change position and passes of players, resulting in it being much harder to create chances and win.

 

I can't tactically see the difference between a AML ST ST AMR vs AML ST AMC AMR front line, except the AMC one seems to be a slightly better defensive formation and I feel the AMC offensively get in better positions than when he was a ST, but it just doesn't result in good performance.

 

Maybe the AML/AMR is the problem or using double DM's instead of double MC's, but I don't have the players to test that change, also I play at a level that result in all teams playing some type of defensive football against us, it could be the AMC simply drown against a defensive team.

What role are you using the AMC in?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8 hours ago, Miravlix said:

MC and the AMC end up on top of each other pre-box play and the other players just doesn't pass the ball to the AMC that often, making it a wasted man on the pitch

This is the games fault, before 19 this was fine I think, especilly in 17, worked like a normal CAM should.

I may have a solution though, maybe try putting your CM's to DM positions so you have a DLP-D/Defensive mid (the lower/defensive minded player) next to a another role like a segundo volate or a role that pushes them higher up. I've never tried it myself but it makes sense as there's a bigger gap in midfield so maybe your CAM will get more involved. Maybe test this for a couple of games or make another save and test it. 

Most cm's can go into defensive midfield which may show up yellow or red but it's worth a try, the colour matching isn't always right. A few streamers use players on opposite wings and it works when it's on yellow or red as the role so don't always make it about them, but do make sure to test it. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 09/01/2020 at 07:50, Gee_Simpson said:

What role are you using the AMC in?

 

I tend to focus on AM/S and AP/S, even threw in an AM/A, but that tend to conflict with my players PPM's.

 

Messi got old so I used Enganche as it seems like the perfect role for an aging player. (Though he is carrying the entire team at 36 as an AP/S MC record breaking seasonal score for him.)

 

I don't think I've used T and Shadow much, I want all my players to be defenders, so T isn't really part of my playbook and I think I've made a mistake in not focusing/testing on the shadow striker, it might be the role that would check all the boxes I want filled tactically.

 

First Shadow Striker test resulted in a 6-6 away draw (I did change back to 4-2-4 Wide because I felt something was off, but that was most likely to late as the opposition had to much confidence at that point.), the Shadow Striker got 5 goals, his striking partner (Lottin) got 6.2 score and was useless. Watching the position of the shadow striker he is basically playing like a ST offensively but is better positioned defensively, so that doesn't explain why my team that has an amazing defensive record suddenly can't defend because I move one ST to the AMC position. Not like the change should have ruined the back fours ability to play.

 

I think those six goals is more goal than the entire rest of the league has scored against us, so it was a completely and utterly horrendous result.

 

Oh yeah and my B team also defensively imploded with this tactics and lost 2-1.

Edited by Miravlix

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Just a forums rules question: I have the same issue basically. Is it better to create a separate thread so as not to hijack OPs (since our tactics are obviously not identical so the solutions suggested might be different) or is that considered spam because a similar topic is already available and I should just post a screenshot of my tactic here? Thanks all in advance. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
10 minutes ago, ahmed.sg said:

Just a forums rules question: I have the same issue basically. Is it better to create a separate thread so as not to hijack OPs (since our tactics are obviously not identical so the solutions suggested might be different) or is that considered spam because a similar topic is already available and I should just post a screenshot of my tactic here? Thanks all in advance. 

Do a new thread simply cause it's direct to you. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, ahmed.sg said:

Just a forums rules question: I have the same issue basically. Is it better to create a separate thread so as not to hijack OPs (since our tactics are obviously not identical so the solutions suggested might be different) or is that considered spam because a similar topic is already available and I should just post a screenshot of my tactic here? Thanks all in advance. 

Better create a separate thread :thup:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 minutes ago, Experienced Defender said:

Better create a separate thread :thup:

 

3 hours ago, BigV said:

Do a new thread simply cause it's direct to you. 

Thanks both. Will do.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.


  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.

×
×
  • Create New...