4123 - Left wing not working

[Mr_Demus]

I am playing as AGF in the Danish Superliga.

I am trying to build a 4123. I am heavily inspired by some of @Experienced Defender's excellent advice on here. I have played with this team for only a couple of matches, but I have tried a system with the same base for other teams. A couple of things always happens.

1) No matter whether I play the AML as an IF or IW he is basically invisible, and rarely rates higher than 6.4

2) The RB. I have tried FB S and WB D, and they will also rate poorly all the time.

 

That is one thing.

 

The other thing is, that I would like some advice on this setup. I am trying to achieve a patient game, not possesion for the sake of possesion, but a sensible, patient build up without rushing things.

 

 

I am tweaking a couple of things still. The MCL have so far been a DLP S and the MCR have been an CM A, but that wasn't working greatly, so I chnaged it.

Edited January 4, 2020 by Mr_Demus

[cyoung17]

What is it that you're trying to achieve? Who is your main goal threat? Where do you want the goals to come from? 

If you have a clear picture of that then it becomes easier to build the roles that. I'll happily offer some advice if you let me know the above.

I play a similar system but my IF on the right is my main goal threat so have my left side setup for overloads which leaves a ton of space on the right for him,

[Mr_Demus]

After some more tweaking, I have this now:

 

It plays okay...My defence is pretty solid. I create a lot of chances, but don't score a lot. I alter between positive and balanced. The AP also differs between A and S depending on situation.

My PF is my topscorer, and I guess I want him to stay my main threat, but I would like other players to score goals as well, as I don't want a win to rely on only one player.

Still undecided on my AML. I have played him as an IF S, but that wasn't great, so now I am trying an IW S again

Edited January 4, 2020 by Mr_Demus

[Experienced Defender]

5 hours ago, Mr_Demus said:

I would like some advice on this setup. I am trying to achieve a patient game, not possesion for the sake of possesion, but a sensible, patient build up without rushing things

First off, do you have the right players for such style of play? What's your team's reputation and where does it stand compared to the rest of your league in terms of different aspects of play? 

[Mr_Demus]

47 minutes ago, Experienced Defender said:

First off, do you have the right players for such style of play? What's your team's reputation and where does it stand compared to the rest of your league in terms of different aspects of play? 

We are a biggish team, if that is what you are asking. We are predicted 5/14. 

We don't have the best passers, so I removed the shorter passing instruction, as you can see in the second screen shot.

[bamba2019]

2 minutes ago, Mr_Demus said:

We are a biggish team, if that is what you are asking. We are predicted 5/14. 

We don't have the best passers, so I removed the shorter passing instruction, as you can see in the second screen shot.

Don’t mean to sound stupid. But if your not the best passers surely you would play with shorter passes as the longer balls will be more risky than usual? 

[Experienced Defender]

1 hour ago, Mr_Demus said:

We don't have the best passers, so I removed the shorter passing instruction,

Which means that possession-based football is not a very good idea. Neither is working the ball into the box. 

 

2 hours ago, Mr_Demus said:

 

I don't know your players, so I cannot say what approach would optimally suit your team. I can only give you some suggestions about the tactic from the screenshot above.

First off, you need to know that AP on attack duty is better utilized in counter-attacking and fast attacking styles than possession-oriented ones. Is that what you want or not?

 

[Mr_Demus]

8 minutes ago, Experienced Defender said:

Which means that possession-based football is not a very good idea. Neither is working the ball into the box. 

 

I don't know your players, so I cannot say what approach would optimally suit your team. I can only give you some suggestions about the tactic from the screenshot above.

First off, you need to know that AP on attack duty is better utilized in counter-attacking and fast attacking styles than possession-oriented ones. Is that what you want or not?

 

Ideally, I would like a possesion style, because that is what they practice in real life, so I started of with that. Looking at the stats however, this is not mirrored in FM, so that will not work that well. So maybe, a defensively solid approach where we move the ball quickly forward will suit the team better.

[Experienced Defender]

23 minutes ago, Mr_Demus said:

Ideally, I would like a possesion style, because that is what they practice in real life, so I started of with that. Looking at the stats however, this is not mirrored in FM, so that will not work that well. So maybe, a defensively solid approach where we move the ball quickly forward will suit the team better.

Well, sounds basically similar to the approach that I used for my Newcastle save. I would suggest you use 2 pretty similar tactics - one for home games in which you are the favorite and the other for tougher ones.

Based on your current tactic, this is how you may set it up:

The home tactic when you are the favorite:

PFat

IWsu                                Wat

CAR    APsu

DMde

FBat    CDde  CDde  FBsu

GK/SKde/su

Start with the Balanced mentality. Then you can occasionally switch to the Positive as you see fit.

In possession - shorter passing

In transition - distribute to (both) CBs and FBs

Out of possession - start with no instructions

The away and tough games tactic:

PFat

IFsu                               Wsu

BWMsu   APat

Ade

FBat    CDde   CDde   FBsu

GK/SKde/su

Mentality - Balanced

In possession - higher tempo

In transition - counter

Out of possession - standard DL, lower LOE

NOTE: Both tactics (setups) are based on the assumption that you want to use the AP role. They are not plug-n-play tactics, so occasional small tweaks will probably be be needed.

Any questions or suggestions?

[Mr_Demus]

9 hours ago, Experienced Defender said:

Well, sounds basically similar to the approach that I used for my Newcastle save. I would suggest you use 2 pretty similar tactics - one for home games in which you are the favorite and the other for tougher ones.

Based on your current tactic, this is how you may set it up:

The home tactic when you are the favorite:

PFat

IWsu                                Wat

CAR    APsu

DMde

FBat    CDde  CDde  FBsu

GK/SKde/su

Start with the Balanced mentality. Then you can occasionally switch to the Positive as you see fit.

In possession - shorter passing

In transition - distribute to (both) CBs and FBs

Out of possession - start with no instructions

The away and tough games tactic:

PFat

IFsu                               Wsu

BWMsu   APat

Ade

FBat    CDde   CDde   FBsu

GK/SKde/su

Mentality - Balanced

In possession - higher tempo

In transition - counter

Out of possession - standard DL, lower LOE

NOTE: Both tactics (setups) are based on the assumption that you want to use the AP role. They are not plug-n-play tactics, so occasional small tweaks will probably be be needed.

Any questions or suggestions?

Thank you so much for your help and advice.

 

I started off with exactly the top one, and it didn't work that well. Maybe I just need to stick with it. 

Would it be an idea to apply a split block?

 

The bottom one looks interesting, so I will look forward to trying that.

I am not married to the AP but one of my best players is a playmaker, so I think I would like either an AP or DLP. I think, he has the stats for MEZ as well, but I am not entirely sure.

[Experienced Defender]

4 hours ago, Mr_Demus said:

I started off with exactly the top one, and it didn't work that well. Maybe I just need to stick with it

If it didn't (doesn't) work well for you, then it probably does not suit your players. So you should not stick with it. Now, when I say it does not suit your players, I am not necessarily referring to their roles/duties. It might be about instructions, for example. Sometimes just one tweak can make a huge difference. But I don't know your team, so it's impossible for me to tell you which tweak (or tweaks) that should be. 

 

4 hours ago, Mr_Demus said:

Would it be an idea to apply a split block?

You can try and see if it works for you. I personally like the concept of split block, but I don't use it always (or with all teams). 

 

4 hours ago, Mr_Demus said:

I am not married to the AP but one of my best players is a playmaker, so I think I would like either an AP or DLP

Well, in case you want to try him as a DLP, one of my favorite role combinations involving DLP in the 4123 is this:

IWsu

                   DLPsu

FBat

The MCR can then be played as BBM or mezzala on support duty (speaking of the first tactic). 

[Giantplaything]

On 04/01/2020 at 19:31, Experienced Defender said:

AP on attack duty is better utilized in counter-attacking and fast attacking styles than possession-oriented ones

Just logged in to say thanks for this golden nugget of a tip. My strikers have a late arriving option of a pass and I score more now.

[Experienced Defender]

5 hours ago, Giantplaything said:

Just logged in to say thanks for this golden nugget of a tip. My strikers have a late arriving option of a pass and I score more now

I am glad that my post helped you. But just to clarify: I was talking about AP on attack, not AF (although AF also works better in counter-attacking tactics btw).

[Mr_Demus]

On 05/01/2020 at 13:57, Experienced Defender said:

If it didn't (doesn't) work well for you, then it probably does not suit your players. So you should not stick with it. Now, when I say it does not suit your players, I am not necessarily referring to their roles/duties. It might be about instructions, for example. Sometimes just one tweak can make a huge difference. But I don't know your team, so it's impossible for me to tell you which tweak (or tweaks) that should be. 

 

You can try and see if it works for you. I personally like the concept of split block, but I don't use it always (or with all teams). 

 

Well, in case you want to try him as a DLP, one of my favorite role combinations involving DLP in the 4123 is this:

IWsu

                   DLPsu

FBat

The MCR can then be played as BBM or mezzala on support duty (speaking of the first tactic). 

I tried this setup as well, but the damage was done on team morale and board patience, so I got the boot in the end. I started rethinking, and looking at the players, and decided to try to start over, and build something not based on possesion, but more on a solid defensive approach and some counter-ish football.

 

I have come up with the following to start with:

 

[Mr_Demus]

I know that I should make the DL a support and the DR an attack to create balance

[Experienced Defender]

2 hours ago, Mr_Demus said:

 

1 hour ago, Mr_Demus said:

I know that I should make the DL a support and the DR an attack to create balance

No, you should not play the DR on attack, because he has a mezzala in front of him. DL should be on support, but in the WB role. 

It seems as though you now want to try a counter-attacking approach?

[Mr_Demus]

10 hours ago, Experienced Defender said:

 

No, you should not play the DR on attack, because he has a mezzala in front of him. DL should be on support, but in the WB role. 

It seems as though you now want to try a counter-attacking approach?

Ah, okay.

 

I wrote this at the top of my post:

"I tried this setup as well, but the damage was done on team morale and board patience, so I got the boot in the end. I started rethinking, and looking at the players, and decided to try to start over, and build something not based on possesion, but more on a solid defensive approach and some counter-ish football."

 

[Giantplaything]

20 hours ago, Experienced Defender said:

I am glad that my post helped you. But just to clarify: I was talking about AP on attack, not AF (although AF also works better in counter-attacking tactics btw).

Yes it was the AP I was referring to. My midfield was too passive in attack but wingers on attack would seemly run into a cul-de-sac and lose it.

[Experienced Defender]

4 hours ago, Mr_Demus said:

I wrote this at the top of my post:

"I tried this setup as well, but the damage was done on team morale and board patience, so I got the boot in the end. I started rethinking, and looking at the players, and decided to try to start over, and build something not based on possesion, but more on a solid defensive approach and some counter-ish football."

Yeah, sorry, I somehow overlooked that. Too many posts to reply, so concentration lapsed  

Anyway, you have a decent starting point for a counter-based style (lower LOE, higher tempo, early crosses). I think roles and duties may need some tweaking, but let's go step by step. For now play this tactic and see how it works. If you don't like what you see, report back and I'll tell you what IMO can be changed 

[Mr_Demus]

6 hours ago, Experienced Defender said:

Yeah, sorry, I somehow overlooked that. Too many posts to reply, so concentration lapsed  

Anyway, you have a decent starting point for a counter-based style (lower LOE, higher tempo, early crosses). I think roles and duties may need some tweaking, but let's go step by step. For now play this tactic and see how it works. If you don't like what you see, report back and I'll tell you what IMO can be changed 

No worries. Cheers for the feedback.

[jens_dewit]

On 04/01/2020 at 23:37, Experienced Defender said:

 

The home tactic when you are the favorite:

PFat

IWsu                                Wat

CAR    APsu

DMde

FBat    CDde  CDde  FBsu

GK/SKde/su

Start with the Balanced mentality. Then you can occasionally switch to the Positive as you see fit.

In possession - shorter passing

In transition - distribute to (both) CBs and FBs

Out of possession - start with no instructions

The away and tough games tactic:

PFat

IFsu                               Wsu

BWMsu   APat

Ade

FBat    CDde   CDde   FBsu

GK/SKde/su

 

I'm interested in your approach, but could you please elaborate a bit more on why you would switch from IW to IF? And why you would choose a carillero as well, when you have decent options out wide as well as in the middle. I thought the CAR was meant for when you don't have a lot of width yet want someone to cover the wider areas. I'm probably wrong though.

[Experienced Defender]

5 hours ago, jens_dewit said:

I'm interested in your approach, but could you please elaborate a bit more on why you would switch from IW to IF?

This particular switch is not necessary, so you can keep the IW. The only reason I suggested that (as an option) for the second tactic is that the IF as a role is slightly more attack-minded, i.e. focused on attacking space and the opposition box, than the IW. In other words, IF is generally more straightforward in his attacking movement. 

 

5 hours ago, jens_dewit said:

And why you would choose a carillero as well, when you have decent options out wide as well as in the middle. I thought the CAR was meant for when you don't have a lot of width yet want someone to cover the wider areas

Well, carrilero is there to cover (defensively) for the attacking fullback on the left. You can go with a BWM on support as well (as in the 2nd setup). Depends on the type of player and what you want to achieve. I personally always prefer to have proper balance in order to keep the shape as defensively solid as possible. Btw, what role would you use instead of the carrilero for the MCL position?

[Mr_Demus]

On 09/01/2020 at 15:03, Experienced Defender said:

Yeah, sorry, I somehow overlooked that. Too many posts to reply, so concentration lapsed  

Anyway, you have a decent starting point for a counter-based style (lower LOE, higher tempo, early crosses). I think roles and duties may need some tweaking, but let's go step by step. For now play this tactic and see how it works. If you don't like what you see, report back and I'll tell you what IMO can be changed 

First of all, congratulations on a well deserved mod title.

 

Second, I have played three matches with the counter tactic I posted above. Only change is, that the DL is now a WB S. In my first match against a weaker team, I also changed the MEZ to A.

First match was against a team predicted to finish 12/14. We won 2-1 away. Their goal was from a free kick after 89 minutes and was their only shot on target. I created a ton of chances, most of them form inside the box. It was a very solid defensive match. In my two previous saves this match finished 0-0.

 

Second game against the best team in the league predicted to finish 1/14. Drew them 1-1 away from home. I didn't give up more than 1 or 2 really good chances, and their goal came from a counter after a corner. I have lost this match 4-1 before, so a huge improvement.

 

Third match at home against the team predicted 2/14. Won 1-0. Once again it was solid at the back. We created a decent amount of chances. Usually I lose this match.

 

What I think could improve:

-My lone TM is often alone when we counter. This is most likely natural though. I don't have much experience with this type of football.

-The rating of my TM and IF seem to be dependent on goals. If they don't score, they have a rating of 6.0-6.4

-My W is almost invisible and plays poorly

-My DR could perform better

 

I regret tat I have only started a test save, and not set it up properly

 

[Mr_Demus]

Played 4 more matches.

This, logically, works much better when I am the underdog. But, I struggle way more than expected when facing poorer sides. Perhaps I need a second tactic for when I am the favourite.

I am going to try some changes:

ST - TM S --> PF A

AMR - W S --> W A

AML - IF A --> IF/IW S

DL - WB S --> FB A

 

So the role setup is now almost identical to my very first start, but with another approach to build up.

 

[Mr_Demus]

My test save gave me mixed, but mainly positive, results. As mentioned, the formation with a TM worked well against big teams, but I struggled against weaker teams. So I tried making a second tactic for matches where I am the favourite. This has lead me to:

 

This is the tactic for when I am the underdog. 

 

This is the tactic for when I am favourite. This is still not complete, and I might opt for an IW S on the left sometimes. The CM pairing most likely will also be MEZ A/S and DLP S at times.

 

Which TI's would be advisable for the second tactic? I am thinking to maybe remove the early crosses, but I am worried that that might be against the idea of counter attacking.

[Mr_Demus]

I have played 12 league games and 2 cup games with these tactics. Only changes are, that the DM D is now a HB and I have experimented with turning the MEZ into a BBM. Not a big enough sample size yet.

 

I have so far lost 1 game, and I'm overperforming in terms of points and the standings. I am drawing far too many games for my liking though, but this is to be expected. Most of my chances are one on ones, and that is not good in this ME. 

[jens_dewit]

On 10/01/2020 at 16:32, Experienced Defender said:

This particular switch is not necessary, so you can keep the IW. The only reason I suggested that (as an option) for the second tactic is that the IF as a role is slightly more attack-minded, i.e. focused on attacking space and the opposition box, than the IW. In other words, IF is generally more straightforward in his attacking movement. 

 

Well, carrilero is there to cover (defensively) for the attacking fullback on the left. You can go with a BWM on support as well (as in the 2nd setup). Depends on the type of player and what you want to achieve. I personally always prefer to have proper balance in order to keep the shape as defensively solid as possible. Btw, what role would you use instead of the carrilero for the MCL position?

Thanks for the explanation and sorry for my late answer. Myself I'd have chosen a DLP on support on that side and changing the AP to a CM or B2B. But I must admit I'm still too focused on roles without checking if the players I'm using are really suited for them.  

[sporadicsmiles]

I have never understood the use of a Car(S) in tactics that have 2 wide players already. Are you using it purely to cover, or as a deeper lying wide player to disrupt the AI shape? If the former, you it is just weakening your middle to solve a problem you could easily solve in a better way. The setup you have in the second tactic you posted (the last set of tactic, when favourite) does not have a nice midfield. Each player is isolated from the other midfielders, and I struggle to see it being consistent.

The 4123 is so flexible for breaking down defensive sides (I am not sure if you ever had to do this, mind). For a tactic that is designed to do this, you should have fixed roles for the midfielders. You should alter them depending on the formation you face, or what you see on the field. For example, an AP(A) in midfield against a team with 2 DMCs is going to be out of the game. No space being made for him in your current tactic, and he makes no space. Against defensive sides, creating overloads is important, and that means changing roles can happen a lot. For example, against the two DMC formations I described before, I may use a MEZ(A), W(A), FB(A) (or WB(S/D), whatever is working) on one side. Couple to a DM(S) and a DLP(S) (who are deep and away from the congestion caused by the DMCs), and an IF(A) on the other flank. The aim is to force the AI to overcommit to one side, lose shape, and be vulnerable to cross balls to the IF(A). You can think of hundreds of other ways to do things like this. I guess my point is do not think too rigidly for tactics to break down defenses. Chances are they will not work for every formation you face. Flexibility is key in these situations.

For the first tactic, I would be tempted to use a TM(A) and a W(A) too. Then give PIs for the two wide players to track back with their respective fullback to give extra defensive stability. Attack duty then means they look to get forward quickly in a transition, which would let them link nicely with the striker. I would tend to use a BBM or CM(A) as my runner in that central midfield too. Get 3 players running at different locations around the TM and profit.

[Mr_Demus]

@Experienced Defender sorry to tag you in this mate, but if you have the time, I would appreciate your input.  Sorry in advance for the long post, but I hope you have the time to look into it. *I put the pictures in spoilers, as there are quite a lot

I have now played nearly a full season (3 games to go) and I am still not entirely happy. We overperformed in the regular season, but after the league split we have not been great in the Championship playoff group. We have conceded a ton of goals compared to the regular season (15 in 8 games. We conceded 21 in 26 regular season games).

I have tweaked the tactics a bit, but I am afraid to mess something up, so some fresh eyes would be hugely appreciated.

This is the tactic I have been the most satisfied with. It has mostly been solid at the back, and we have scored a decent amount of goals with it. The central midfield and the wide players have been inconsistent, but that may be due to quality of players as well.

Spoiler

My second tactic has worked so so. It has produced some decent results, and some not so decent. It is inefficient up front, but that was kind of the purpose. It is though maybe too inefficient.

I have struggled to find the correct CM combo.

Spoiler

 

Any thoughts on these? I have thought ahead for the next season, and I think I want to play in three different ways. That is not me saying, I will have three different tactics, but I want to keep the foundation from this season, and then make some tweaks and changes that allow us to play in different ways.

As I do not have great passers, direct and counter football seems the way to go. I think I will keep the first one, as it has worked for large amounts of the season. What I would like to add, is one where we do not play on the counter, but simply play direct (and maybe fast) football. I would also need a sit back one like tactic number 2, but with a few tweaks to make it better.

 

My players, so you can maybe give give more precise advice.

Keeper.

Spoiler

My right back. Has played as WB D.

Spoiler

Left back. Has played as FB A and WB A

Spoiler

Central defender. Has been playing as CD D.

Spoiler

Central defender. Started as a NCB, but changed to CD D

Spoiler

Defensive midfielder. Started as a DM D, but changed to HB during season.

Spoiler

Central midfielder. Has mainly been played as a Playmaker.

Spoiler

Central midfielder. Has been a Playmaker, but mostly used in the non-playmaker role - mainly CAR, MEZ S and BBM

Spoiler

Wide player. Has been played as W S, W A, IF A and IF S

Spoiler

Wide player. Has mainly been used in the IF role.

Spoiler

Wide player. Mainly IF, but also played as W

Spoiler

Striker. Played as PF, but also as TM because of injuries. Not ideal TM, so will need to find new role for tactic 2.

Spoiler

Backup defender.

Spoiler

Backup defensive player.

Spoiler

Backup midfielder.

Spoiler

Backup wide player.

Spoiler

Backup striker. Started as my TM, but didn't perform.

Spoiler

 

[Experienced Defender]

I don't have enough time to analyze all your players at the moment, so I was able only to take a look at these 2 tactics. I would combine them into a single one by taking good things and removing bad ones from both in order to get a well-balanced counter-attacking tactic. Something like this:

PFat

IFsu                                    Wsu

BWMsu    APat

Ade

FBat    CDde  CD/NCBde   FBsu

GK/SKde

With the Balanced mentality and simple starting instructions:

- higher tempo

- counter

- lower LOE, get stuck in

Possible tweaks would depend on what you see during a match.

If I find some more time later, I'll analyze the players as well.

[Mr_Demus]

18 hours ago, Experienced Defender said:

I don't have enough time to analyze all your players at the moment, so I was able only to take a look at these 2 tactics. I would combine them into a single one by taking good things and removing bad ones from both in order to get a well-balanced counter-attacking tactic. Something like this:

PFat

IFsu                                    Wsu

BWMsu    APat

Ade

FBat    CDde  CD/NCBde   FBsu

GK/SKde

With the Balanced mentality and simple starting instructions:

- higher tempo

- counter

- lower LOE, get stuck in

Possible tweaks would depend on what you see during a match.

If I find some more time later, I'll analyze the players as well.

Cool thanks. I will try this out.

[Mr_Demus]

On 21/01/2020 at 13:42, Experienced Defender said:

I don't have enough time to analyze all your players at the moment, so I was able only to take a look at these 2 tactics. I would combine them into a single one by taking good things and removing bad ones from both in order to get a well-balanced counter-attacking tactic. Something like this:

PFat

IFsu                                    Wsu

BWMsu    APat

Ade

FBat    CDde  CD/NCBde   FBsu

GK/SKde

With the Balanced mentality and simple starting instructions:

- higher tempo

- counter

- lower LOE, get stuck in

Possible tweaks would depend on what you see during a match.

If I find some more time later, I'll analyze the players as well.

Tried this exact setup. It was solid in defence, but it produced no chances. Changed the W from S to A, and that helped a lot.

[Experienced Defender]

1 hour ago, Mr_Demus said:

Changed the W from S to A, and that helped a lot