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Weight of attributes per role (and general spreadsheet geeking)


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I done something similar to this a while back on older fm’s. Basically I put in a players attributes then I had a Separate cell for each position/role etc and it would do a sum of all the required attributes decided by the number of attributes used giving me a nice number.

 

two players for the same position I would use the higher average shown

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12 hours ago, XaW said:

Yes, yes, I'm crazy and take this game far too serious and all that jazz. If this is very strange to you, please move on. If you are as excited as me about spreadsheets and numbers, please read on and give me some input. @Braumiller, @OlivierL, I would especially value your views.

I've started on a new spreadsheet for youth development purposes, and it's coming along nicely. This will help me with retraining especially from an early age since a striker might have better talent as a winger or similar.

0sRb6lA.png

However, I do have a need for some input from you guys. I've isolated the stats based on the roles for quite a few positions (not all), but I'm unsure of how to weight them. Take this screenshot below as an example.

JiY3uIs.png

The role in question is CM-S (Central Midfielder - Support), and from the game there are two types of highlights, blue and grey. As far as I can tell, the grey seems to be the most important and the blue less so. How would you weigh these attributes? At the moment I've weighed them the same, added them together, and added a third of the average total number (since higher elsewhere is always a bonus). I tried to add 0,5 to the "blue" attributes, but that felt kind of wrong. So, I'm unsure if this is the ideal way to do it. Please add your thoughts to this point.

The second is colour coding based on how high the rating is. At the moment I've taken the number of highlighted attributes and multiplied it with certain levels for low, medium and high, but I notice this have it's flaws because roles with few highlighted attributes score much higher than roles with higher number of highlighted attributes. Any input would be nice here as well.

That spreadsheet looks great . U already know how my calculating works. I picked the most important attributes for each position / style and if a players scores good on those (in combination with dna mental/physical attributes ) , he can stay or be retrained.

I love it that u (and I saw someone else doing it like that) are adding other things (average total ).
 

What do u mean with your last part, 'how high the rating is' ?

 

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Edited by OlivierL
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12 minutes ago, OlivierL said:

What do u mean with your last part, 'how high the rating is' ?

Thanks! What I'm wondering is how you calculate the number. Do you add the respective fields and divide by number of attributes added? Or do you have any formulas or similar? I'm just unsure how much each attribute should impact each role. I mean for defenders tackling is very important, but it's also partially needed for central midfielder, but perhaps not as much. I.e, how much should I add for each attribute for each role. So far I've used the in-game role highlighter, but it has prioritised attributes and favoured attributes with different colour highlight. I'm trying to figure out how much I should consider each type of attribute for the roles.

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22 hours ago, XaW said:

Thanks! What I'm wondering is how you calculate the number. Do you add the respective fields and divide by number of attributes added? Or do you have any formulas or similar? I'm just unsure how much each attribute should impact each role. I mean for defenders tackling is very important, but it's also partially needed for central midfielder, but perhaps not as much. I.e, how much should I add for each attribute for each role. So far I've used the in-game role highlighter, but it has prioritised attributes and favoured attributes with different colour highlight. I'm trying to figure out how much I should consider each type of attribute for the roles.

i use the average number of the attributes in below list. So idd that means that tackling and jumping reach are equally important for the Central defender, for me.

If i have to choose between two DC's with rating 9.10 , i'll look to the DNA mental/physical score . If they both score good on that i'll pick the one with the least weaknesses.

You can use the highlighted attributes in the game or pick thet ones you think are the most important for your way of playing .

f51af0e3bfb3d91182c2e0e22ee9ff2b.png
 

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@XaW love this!  I've been away from the forums for a couple of week, but this is my kinda thread to pull me back in :)

Quick personal notes from my previous spreadsheets (currently working on a new one, but my Youth save and Path of Exile are monopolizing my time to work on it! lol)

I currently just all of the highlighted stats as the core stats for the role, regardless of their shading and whether the game regards them as primary or secondary stats for the role.  Several years ago I went further and split them out.  The calculation for each role would then reference two cells I had which held the weightings for primary and secondary (this way you could simply change the weighting for everything by changing the values for those two cells).  I couldn't come up with a satisfactory feel for what the weightings should be, so I ended up reverting back to treating them as equal.

To come up with my 'Role Scores', I simply take the average of the highlighted attributes (so that piece will be between 1 and 20) and then multiply it by 5, to give a score up to 100 - which works as a quasi percentage.  This way you can compare roles for a player, regardless of if they have just 8 highlighted attributes or 241! (Looking at you Box to Box midfielders :) )

If a player had twenties for all highlighted attributes for a role, they would score a 100, and be 100% the best possible player for the role.

For example, in the screenshot below, this player scores a 55% for a Ball Playing Defender (Defend), which was excellent for my team at the time.  The attributes highlighted average out to 11, and then * 5.  (This is an old screenshot I took months ago when I was grabbing the highlighted attributes for each role, so I could work on the spreadsheet at work without having to have the game open! lol) - I think it was one of my handy DM / MC's, which led to them being retrained into my main BPD-D.....

BPD-D.thumb.PNG.70d5e828fb4c7d887de2d22abf0884c1.PNG

 

Well, this 'quick' note suddenly went longer than anticipated :)

I also have a tab which shows which PPMs might work for a player based on attributes (obviously they might not be a good choice depending on your tactic).  This was based on a post / article I found 3-4 years ago, showing their opinions on which attributes relate to all PPMs (at that time).  It is getting out of date now, but I still reference it.

Based on @OlivierL 's posts, and others, I have also been toying with a 'Club DNA' rating as well.  Identical to a role score, but a singular score for all my outfield players for a set of general attributes I would want them all to have.  I haven't finalized this yet, as I keep chopping and changing tactics and approaches! lol

Will keep an eye on this thread :thup:

 

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Lovely to get your feedback @Braumiller. After all, you are the inspiration for this spreadsheet! :D

The divide and multiply to get a semi-percentage is an excellent shout! I'll give that a go ASAP! That might be just the thing! Along with @OlivierL's suggestions, and I think I might have something!

Thanks for the input, you guys!

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Ok, this is amazing! This is the sort of thing I really want to be doing in my save(s) but, unfortunately, I have absolutely no idea where to start.

The main reason I play Football Manager is because I love all the stats based scenarios and the flexibility.

Can any of you guys help me on the right path? 

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3 minutes ago, EnigMattic1 said:

Ok, this is amazing! This is the sort of thing I really want to be doing in my save(s) but, unfortunately, I have absolutely no idea where to start.

The main reason I play Football Manager is because I love all the stats based scenarios and the flexibility.

Can any of you guys help me on the right path? 

Well, if you start by exporting all of the stats, that's a good start at least. I did it by creating my own custom view with all the stats and then used the export functionality in the game to give them to me. Then I just started to play around in excel (open office calc because I'm a cheap bastard).

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4 hours ago, Braumiller said:

@XaW love this!  I've been away from the forums for a couple of week, but this is my kinda thread to pull me back in :)

Quick personal notes from my previous spreadsheets (currently working on a new one, but my Youth save and Path of Exile are monopolizing my time to work on it! lol)

I currently just all of the highlighted stats as the core stats for the role, regardless of their shading and whether the game regards them as primary or secondary stats for the role.  Several years ago I went further and split them out.  The calculation for each role would then reference two cells I had which held the weightings for primary and secondary (this way you could simply change the weighting for everything by changing the values for those two cells).  I couldn't come up with a satisfactory feel for what the weightings should be, so I ended up reverting back to treating them as equal.

To come up with my 'Role Scores', I simply take the average of the highlighted attributes (so that piece will be between 1 and 20) and then multiply it by 5, to give a score up to 100 - which works as a quasi percentage.  This way you can compare roles for a player, regardless of if they have just 8 highlighted attributes or 241! (Looking at you Box to Box midfielders :) )

If a player had twenties for all highlighted attributes for a role, they would score a 100, and be 100% the best possible player for the role.

For example, in the screenshot below, this player scores a 55% for a Ball Playing Defender (Defend), which was excellent for my team at the time.  The attributes highlighted average out to 11, and then * 5.  (This is an old screenshot I took months ago when I was grabbing the highlighted attributes for each role, so I could work on the spreadsheet at work without having to have the game open! lol) - I think it was one of my handy DM / MC's, which led to them being retrained into my main BPD-D.....

BPD-D.thumb.PNG.70d5e828fb4c7d887de2d22abf0884c1.PNG

 

Well, this 'quick' note suddenly went longer than anticipated :)

I also have a tab which shows which PPMs might work for a player based on attributes (obviously they might not be a good choice depending on your tactic).  This was based on a post / article I found 3-4 years ago, showing their opinions on which attributes relate to all PPMs (at that time).  It is getting out of date now, but I still reference it.

Based on @OlivierL 's posts, and others, I have also been toying with a 'Club DNA' rating as well.  Identical to a role score, but a singular score for all my outfield players for a set of general attributes I would want them all to have.  I haven't finalized this yet, as I keep chopping and changing tactics and approaches! lol

Will keep an eye on this thread :thup:

 

Your way of calculating is much extremer and great but i prefer (certainly playing in Iceland) to pick the most important attributes myself.

multiplying them with 5 to get points out of 100 is a small but great idea i never thought of.

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I

16 minutes ago, XaW said:

Well, if you start by exporting all of the stats, that's a good start at least. I did it by creating my own custom view with all the stats and then used the export functionality in the game to give them to me. Then I just started to play around in excel (open office calc because I'm a cheap bastard).

I can do the whole exporting thing, I know how I want to play so I have a vague idea of the stats I require for the 'dna'. 

I always tend to focus on youth and your idea of using a spreadsheet to help with retraining at a young age is something I have been trying to do (with no luck). 

And, yeah, I'm a cheap bastard too. I'm using Libraoffice

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16 minutes ago, XaW said:

Well, if you start by exporting all of the stats, that's a good start at least. I did it by creating my own custom view with all the stats and then used the export functionality in the game to give them to me. Then I just started to play around in excel (open office calc because I'm a cheap bastard).

This is the first step idd. decide what u want to calculate and create a view : f3e45ee2c9ca39ebf5a709d27e5a5459.png

I enter all those numbers in my excel spreadsheet (start of every season ) and every youth intake so i can decide who should stay and who should be retrained.

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1 minute ago, EnigMattic1 said:

I

I can do the whole exporting thing, I know how I want to play so I have a vague idea of the stats I require for the 'dna'. 

I always tend to focus on youth and your idea of using a spreadsheet to help with retraining at a young age is something I have been trying to do (with no luck). 

And, yeah, I'm a cheap bastard too. I'm using Libraoffice

dbabdbd118a315bd27490c74808dbbc5.png
 green can stay, oranje retrained and red won't get a contract.

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12 minutes ago, OlivierL said:

dbabdbd118a315bd27490c74808dbbc5.png
 green can stay, oranje retrained and red won't get a contract.

What do you do if an attribute you require for a club DNA is one of the required attributes for a specific role? 

Looking at your screenshot, do you only work out scores for positions you use? 

And, is your acceptable score different for youth players or is it the same across the board? 

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44 minutes ago, EnigMattic1 said:

Ok, this is amazing! This is the sort of thing I really want to be doing in my save(s) but, unfortunately, I have absolutely no idea where to start.

The main reason I play Football Manager is because I love all the stats based scenarios and the flexibility.

Can any of you guys help me on the right path? 

I'll happily post my spreadsheet once I'm done, then you can grab a copy and use and abuse it  :D

Will probably be a couple of days, as I am biting the bullet and doing a 'base' version with all of the available outfield roles (I have been creating 'quick', smaller versions recently, with just the roles of the tactic I am using).

It'll have the PPM sheet in it too, which I've received a couple of PMs about :thup:

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8 minutes ago, Braumiller said:

I'll happily post my spreadsheet once I'm done, then you can grab a copy and use and abuse it  :D

Will probably be a couple of days, as I am biting the bullet and doing a 'base' version with all of the available outfield roles (I have been creating 'quick', smaller versions recently, with just the roles of the tactic I am using).

It'll have the PPM sheet in it too, which I've received a couple of PMs about :thup:

Sounds good to me mate. I envy everyone who does stuff like this. You make it seem so easy. 

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I'll refine mine a bit and then I'm more than happy to share. With all it's faults and errors, of course!

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23 minutes ago, EnigMattic1 said:

What do you do if an attribute you require for a club DNA is one of the required attributes for a specific role? 

Looking at your screenshot, do you only work out scores for positions you use? 

And, is your acceptable score different for youth players or is it the same across the board? 

If it really is an important attribute for the specific position/role, i tend to count them in the DNA attribute number and in the specific number/totall.

Idd i only count numbers for the eleven positions i use, i don't change tactic(s) at the moment . You could count this for ALL the positions and roles but that would cost to much time for me at the moment :)

For youth players i'll use lower acceptable scores but it depends .

I keep my calculations for each season so i can monitor them in the future .

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Edited by OlivierL
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Yes (by 5) ;)

I did have a personalized version of the staff recommendation calculation - I'll have a dig through old OneDrive docs to see if still around, but that one might be long gone

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40 minutes ago, Braumiller said:

Yes (by 5) ;)

I did have a personalized version of the staff recommendation calculation - I'll have a dig through old OneDrive docs to see if still around, but that one might be long gone

I still can't believe the detail you guys go into. I didn't even know it was possible. It beats writing everything down on a notepad. 

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Maybe a noob question, but don't you guys feel you are missing all-rounder types of players by going and looking at the attributes highligted for a position/role? I mean he can be subpar at DL, bit subpar at DC, LWB and DM, but I would lile to have such polyvalance in the squad. 

I have t gone the excell way in my saves yet, although a bit of a nerd, but I were to I would do something like this:

- Make 3 scores for each player, higlighted attributes, secondary attributes and other.

- Use standardization to put all players between the one with the maximum attributes (who will become 100) and the one with the minimum atributes (who will become 0). Then rank them to see who gets past the 50% mark.

Dunno if I am.making any sense as its 2 am here and I havent tested it, but would like to read more of this thread.

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1 hour ago, Muttley84 said:

Maybe a noob question, but don't you guys feel you are missing all-rounder types of players by going and looking at the attributes highligted for a position/role? I mean he can be subpar at DL, bit subpar at DC, LWB and DM, but I would lile to have such polyvalance in the squad. 

I have t gone the excell way in my saves yet, although a bit of a nerd, but I were to I would do something like this:

- Make 3 scores for each player, higlighted attributes, secondary attributes and other.

- Use standardization to put all players between the one with the maximum attributes (who will become 100) and the one with the minimum atributes (who will become 0). Then rank them to see who gets past the 50% mark.

Dunno if I am.making any sense as its 2 am here and I havent tested it, but would like to read more of this thread.

That's the beauty of this game, there are a limitless number of ways to approach it - nothing wrong with your way, nothing wrong with those above  :thup:

As for missing out on all-rounders, a few of us here are regulars in the Youth Only challenge thread, and for me, this is primarily a way for me to identify potential retraining projects :)

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7 hours ago, Muttley84 said:

Maybe a noob question, but don't you guys feel you are missing all-rounder types of players by going and looking at the attributes highligted for a position/role? I mean he can be subpar at DL, bit subpar at DC, LWB and DM, but I would lile to have such polyvalance in the squad. 

I have t gone the excell way in my saves yet, although a bit of a nerd, but I were to I would do something like this:

- Make 3 scores for each player, higlighted attributes, secondary attributes and other.

- Use standardization to put all players between the one with the maximum attributes (who will become 100) and the one with the minimum atributes (who will become 0). Then rank them to see who gets past the 50% mark.

Dunno if I am.making any sense as its 2 am here and I havent tested it, but would like to read more of this thread.

Well, we could miss out on all-rounders, but as @Braumiller wrote, most of use this to evaluate youth players in Youth Only challenges and especially in regards to retraining. I think my first spreadsheet were made as a bastard child of my own thinking and a spreadsheet @Braumiller sent me some time around FM13/14(?) for something similar. I remember retraining a striker into a wingback since the stats were perfect for it (some lacking in the defensive, but still, amazing still), and while the player never got farther than yellow in position suitability, he played amazingly for many years there.

Since then I've more or less made/edited spreadsheets for every version that were quasi functional versions similar to this, but I finally thought I'd try to make a real one that would be easy to use, hence this thread. Also it could be somewhere for us with a somewhat unhealthy love for spreadsheets to gather and discuss it, while others roll their eyes, or just stay and read for the madness of it all! ;)

In my spreadsheet I've also made a column for average attribute, just to have the number somewhere, since it will be an indicator of a general high level of stats.

Also, this spreadsheet is not going to replace looking at each and every player individually and make up a mind. It's simply another tool to highlight things that might not be evident by looking at the profile of the player.

When we upload our files (I might be able to do it later today, if I cand find the time), feel free to edit them as you see fit and if you find any good ways of doing so, please let us know! :)

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11 hours ago, EnigMattic1 said:

I still can't believe the detail you guys go into. I didn't even know it was possible. It beats writing everything down on a notepad. 

It's the most fun part of the game for me. I record all my season data, finances, youth dev etc. I love pouring over the data and seeing progress (or lack of ..) over many seasons.

Edited by Tiger666
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34 minutes ago, Tiger666 said:

It's the most fun part of the game for me. I record all my season data, finances, youth dev etc. I love pouring over the data and seeing progress (or lack of ..) over many seasons.

Yeah, I've seen your spreadsheets. I never knew where to start, despite always wanting to try something like this. 

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Le 05/01/2020 à 12:07, OlivierL a dit :

i use the average number of the attributes in below list. So idd that means that tackling and jumping reach are equally important for the Central defender, for me.

I would disagree. If you check stats, you will notice central defenders tackle rarely. In opposition, they are fighting often in the air. Tackling is more important for full backs.

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Having produced a scenario with all attributes and going into export file. I save it as fmf. That seems not to work when you try and open it without Excel.

This is also what I have done >clicked Ctrl +P  saved it as web page then tried to export it into excel? Is this the correct way as it seems 

Any help please

Edited by Kazza
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11 minutes ago, Kazza said:

Having produced a scenario with all attributes and going into export file. I save it as shown fmf. However, when I export the file into fmf and try to open it in excel it says no. Any help please

You should use the "Print Screen" choice from the FM-menu. Then you can export it in different format that can be imported into Excel.

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3 minutes ago, XaW said:

You should use the "Print Screen" choice from the FM-menu. Then you can export it in different format that can be imported into Excel.

Cheers, think I have sorted it and thanks for starting the thread. Lots of ideas to play around with.

Edited by Kazza
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13 minutes ago, Kazza said:

Having produced a scenario with all attributes and going into export file. I save it as shown fmf. However, when I export the file into fmf and try to open it in excel it says no. Any help please

I export using Print Screen as a web page to a folder I've named "Exports" in the FM20 folder. I then open that in a browser and copy and paste in to Excel. Only the data, I don't want any formatting.

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24 minutes ago, Tiger666 said:

I export using Print Screen as a web page to a folder I've named "Exports" in the FM20 folder. I then open that in a browser and copy and paste in to Excel. Only the data, I don't want any formatting.

Thanks both. I have successfully transferred my under 18's into an Excel sheet and added filters to sort out positions and attribute numbers. Brill.

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I'm a banker by trade and got into sports sims originally through Front Office Football (still a great game for American football and number crunching) so this is absolutely my kind of thread.

@XaW I've tried weighting those secondary attributes at 80% of the primary but like you I can't settle on an exact number. 

 

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This thread keeps getting better. I had no idea how many actually use spreadsheets whilst playing the game. 

The more posts I read on here, the more I want to start another save from scratch. 

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6 minutes ago, EnigMattic1 said:

This thread keeps getting better. I had no idea how many actually use spreadsheets whilst playing the game. 

The more posts I read on here, the more I want to start another save from scratch. 

I am the world heavyweight champion at restarting a save. I do it a lot. I have a save point called "Spurs Start" where I have sorted all my settings, tactics, views, training, got all the staff in I want, set up scouting etc. Whenever I want to start a new game I just load that save up and go again rather than having to set everything up again. Helps that I only ever play as one team I suppose.

Edited by Tiger666
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3 minutes ago, Tiger666 said:

I am the world heavyweight champion at restarting a save. I do it a lot. I have a save point called "Spurs Start" where I have sorted all my settings, tactics, views, training, got all the staff in I want, set up scouting etc. Whenever I want to start a new game I just load that save up and go again rather than having to set everything up again. Helps that I only ever play as one team I suppose.

You're the world champion? I have only got past Christmas once since fm14. Its always the same, Liverpool sign someone good, I think of a new idea for a tactic. This time? Spreadsheets. Not that I'm complaining, the more detail I see, the more involved I get, the better. 

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6 minutes ago, Hovis Dexter said:

I've tried to use a spreadsheet which simply averages the attributes for each role but didn't find it very useful then I copied @Joey Numbaz's ideas from this thread which I found particularly interesting

Shame I can't actually look at the spreadsheet. Still, It gives me something else to browse for ideas.

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6 minutes ago, EnigMattic1 said:

Shame I can't actually look at the spreadsheet. Still, It gives me something else to browse for ideas.

I don't use a Mac so I couldn't look at the spreadsheet either. I prepared my own and calculated the harmonic mean of all the attributes for each role after weighted the nice to have attributes at 1x their value and weighting the essential attributes at 2 x their value.

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I find this topic very interesting!

But I find it very difficult to rate the numbers I'm getting..because it always favors the "easy'er" roles.
All my AMR/L are better at the winger role then the inside forward role.
All my MC's are better at DLP-d role then B2B or MEZ.

So this frustrates me as I wanted to see what role suits them best, but this way I can't find any B2B or MEZ or IF...

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1 hour ago, Ron Mexico said:

I'm a banker by trade and got into sports sims originally through Front Office Football (still a great game for American football and number crunching) so this is absolutely my kind of thread.

@XaW I've tried weighting those secondary attributes at 80% of the primary but like you I can't settle on an exact number. 

 

Yeah, I tried a couple of different percentages between 50 and 100, but couldn't nail it. Averaging all the highlighted and multiplying it with 5 works, at least for now.

1 hour ago, EnigMattic1 said:

This thread keeps getting better. I had no idea how many actually use spreadsheets whilst playing the game. 

The more posts I read on here, the more I want to start another save from scratch. 

No need, just use your current one and use this with the youth players to figure out if you have a hidden gem! ;)

5 minutes ago, BadAss88 said:

I find this topic very interesting!

But I find it very difficult to rate the numbers I'm getting..because it always favors the "easy'er" roles.
All my AMR/L are better at the winger role then the inside forward role.
All my MC's are better at DLP-d role then B2B or MEZ.

So this frustrates me as I wanted to see what role suits them best, but this way I can't find any B2B or MEZ or IF...

The basic roles are easier to fill than the specialist ones, and I find that perfectly acceptable. You could use this a scouting tool as well though, if you are able to see all the stats at least, and see if you find a Mezzala around.

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5 hours ago, SpS_Zen said:

I would disagree. If you check stats, you will notice central defenders tackle rarely. In opposition, they are fighting often in the air. Tackling is more important for full backs.

Yes that is true. 

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Answer from Seb Wassell in the topic from 'Thizaum'

Quote

Without giving too much away, attributes are weighed by varying degrees and it is not as simple as X for desirable and Y for key. Every attribute in a position/role could be weighted differently.

 

 

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5 hours ago, XaW said:

You should use the "Print Screen" choice from the FM-menu. Then you can export it in different format that can be imported into Excel.

whaaaat ? so u mean i'm typing all those numbers into my Excel(s) from printed pages / screenshots ( HP sales are happy because of the ink sales) for nothing ?? :)

 

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4 hours ago, EnigMattic1 said:

How many attributes is too many attributes for a club DNA? 

Depends of the level, the country, the team.

My Bilbao DNA attributes were different from my IR Iceland DNA.

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6 minutes ago, OlivierL said:

whaaaat ? so u mean i'm typing all those numbers into my Excel(s) from printed pages / screenshots ( HP sales are happy because of the ink sales) for nothing ?? :)

 

Pretty much! :P

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For those who want to see it, I've added my current version of the spreadsheet to the opening post.

How to use:

Add your players and attributes in the "input" tab, then look at the "Roles" tab for the percentage. Hopefully it works.

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12 minutes ago, XaW said:

Yeah, I tried a couple of different percentages between 50 and 100, but couldn't nail it. Averaging all the highlighted and multiplying it with 5 works, at least for now.

No need, just use your current one and use this with the youth players to figure out if you have a hidden gem! ;)

The basic roles are easier to fill than the specialist ones, and I find that perfectly acceptable. You could use this a scouting tool as well though, if you are able to see all the stats at least, and see if you find a Mezzala around.

That's the problem! I have Thomas Delaney who is perfect for a B2B role, but when I look at the numbers he would be more suited to the DLP-d role, which in my mind isn't correct!

Same with Marco Reus, Julian Brandt, Jadon Sancho and Thorgan Hazard they are all better suited for the W-s role according to the numbers instead of the IF-a role.

How do I interpretate that?

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