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HanziZoloman

Stuttering Hearts (shall not brake) / in need for tactical help

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Posted (edited)

Hello guys,

after I have read many threads about many aspects of tactic in FM I decided to seek help for myself.

The Problem is that I don't create many goals. I've adopted Cleons tactic (how to create a tactic) for my Hearts side.

It's not all bad as we are 5th in the league and on touch with 4th Aberdeen who we beat last weekend. But I believe it was sheer luck, Aberdeen was dominating the game I was trying to ingame Coach my side and however we scored two goals out of nothing. I really need to do some adjustments or the next losing streak is close. Usually I begin with the tactic as you see it in the image. After the match begins I switch to complete match view and look for space then I try to adapt. I provide some stats of my team too in image two.

BTW: DL and LOE are standard

2020-01-03 (1).png

2020-01-03.png

Edited by HanziZoloman

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Posted (edited)

Well .. that is typical for my side. The first stats are against Ayr and it is a draw against a lower league side. But considering how I dominated the match it should easyly won. Again against Hamilton .. I won the match but with 3 goals after corner kicks which I practiced during the last weeks and thanks to the thread with the short corners .. 

But the problem ist missing the big ones and there are plenty of it. opponent goals against are usual counters which are always very dangerous for my team. You can win against my side with one or two good counter attacks while my boys are missing their shots.

2020-01-03 (2).png

2020-01-03 (3).png

Edited by HanziZoloman

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Posted (edited)

My main problem with this tactic is the amount of attacking roles you have. The way you set up, I’m not surprised you counter and create chances but I’d be concerned about when you counter then lose the ball and your opponent hits you on the counter. Personally if I’m ever managing a mid table/ sub top team I like to try and play with as few specialist roles as possible (cwb, rpm, wp). Unless there’s a very specific reason for choosing those roles i would reconsider them. 
 

My question would be what kind of football are you trying to play? 

Edited by Pattric_b

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Posted (edited)

Thanks for the note. I want to control possession and dominate the opponent with passing and ball control.

I have creative players and a high workrate within my team. I have strong midfielders and very versatile players. I also want to bring Jamie Walker into the game because he can push forward and score from the back. He has good stats in almost every aspect and can play every offensive role (DLF as well as Wideplaymaker or Inverted Winger). My players are rather slow compared to other teams.

Cleon stated that if the left CWB is on support rather than attack, the opponent will have more space to run at my defence. On at duty the gap is closer. It's exactly like this. As you said I have strong problems with counter attacks.

Edited by HanziZoloman

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I have tried to follow you Pattric and made the whole tactic more easy. Also inspired by Hernes thread about teamshouts (which just makes fun).

I just played one match, the derby against Hibernian and I haven't ever dominated a game like this before. it was a complete joy to watch as also one of the goals was a short corner :D  man tere is so much in this forum. Thanks! I am curious if the tactic will work in longterm.

154210282_2020-01-06(1).thumb.png.423f8a6f24fb83b89dbb2e464401f7f1.png

2020-01-06.png

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On 03/01/2020 at 21:39, HanziZoloman said:

But the problem ist missing the big ones and there are plenty of it. opponent goals against are usual counters which are always very dangerous for my team. You can win against my side with one or two good counter attacks while my boys are missing their shots.

 

In the latter example, I am not surprised you had struggles against the counter. You are leaving the AI 3v2 against your CBs, and that is a recipe for disaster. You won anyway, because the AI was even more crazily attacking than you. Game likes this you need to think about changes to counter the AI, especially if you are not so good you can just beat them anyway. 

Tactically, I think some of your instructions are not necessary. For example, you do not need to instruct an overlap on the right, it is going to happen naturally with the roles/duties you have. I do not know why you have "play for set pieces" there, unless you are really really strong from those. Have a look at them all, and if you do not have a good reason to have it, get rid and see what happens. High pressing could also leave a two man midfield exposed, maybe a player directed scheme instead? 

Role and duty wise, why do you have the two playmakers next to each other? Seems overkill to me. I'd rather have one of those players as a runner. I'd likely use a static playmaker role (AP or DLP) and an WM(S) here. Get someone into the attacking midfield, and maintain the two midfielders. 

The left of your team is extremely attacking. Your best CB needs to play on the left side, and really needs to be excellent. He is going to have to deal with defending the left flank all the time on counters. Even with a CM(D) to help him, he will struggle. I'd use the CWB situationally, get rid of him when you are winning and want to see out the match for a more balanced role. This will stop you conceding counter attacks. In fact, if you are seeing yourself under pressure because of this, get rid of it when not winning as well. 

The final thing I would notice here is that you are trying to play possession football, but are not using a possession formation (so to speak). You basically have 3 strikers, and 3 midfielders. Everything about your setup screams fast direct football to me. Note that direct does not have to mean Tony Pulis style football. You could also be direct like Alex Ferguson was at Man Utd. You are going to be able to overload defences if you get the ball forward quicker, and I think you would create more and better chances doing so. Something to think about.

Oh, and one last thing. You struggled against the 451 in your screenshot because Ayr were being defensive and you were giving them far, far too much time to get into a compact and hard to break down defensive shape. Breaking down a defensive side is hard. Typically I will look to play faster, more direct, and overload one area of the pitch. By overload, I mean put 2 or 3 players into a region of the pitch where the AI cannot handle them all. This will draw players from elsewhere. Then put players running from deeper into the space you create. It is far from 100% effective, but it may help you out. 

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, HanziZoloman said:

I have tried to follow you Pattric and made the whole tactic more easy. Also inspired by Hernes thread about teamshouts (which just makes fun).

I just played one match, the derby against Hibernian and I haven't ever dominated a game like this before. it was a complete joy to watch as also one of the goals was a short corner :D  man tere is so much in this forum. Thanks! I am curious if the tactic will work in longterm.

154210282_2020-01-06(1).thumb.png.423f8a6f24fb83b89dbb2e464401f7f1.png

2020-01-06.png

That’s great glad you’re off to a good start. I like the look of this tactic a lot more personally. Another thing I would monitor is your central midfield roles. With two support roles you could find your back line exposed when playing against certain formations so I would definitely be careful using two support roles in central midfield. 

Look to see if your wide playmaker is lazy when you lose the ball and doesn’t drop back. If that’s the case and you’re finding it frustrating you could change the cm next to him to a cm-d or even possibly dropping that position into the dm strata in order to cover for his laziness.  All options and things to think about. 

Edited by Pattric_b

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It could work but I can’t say, it depends on the player you use there. Analyze the matches and the players movements in transition and make changes you see fit.

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Man I got a winning side. My first own created tactic. Crucial point was the backup for the WPM on MCR. Thanks guys! Feels great 

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6 hours ago, HanziZoloman said:

154210282_2020-01-06(1).thumb.png.423f8a6f24fb83b89dbb2e464401f7f1.png

Thank God you discarded the asymmetric formation and switched to a normal one instead. You now have a good starting point to work from :thup:

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Posted (edited)

thanks man. I am trying the same as Herne with his shouts. The tactic has to be stable and balanced because during the game I try just to manage with teamshouts and maybe one or two changes (maybe!) in tactic. Before I was clicking aroung trying this and that and called it ingame coaching. In this good starting point is much of the comments from this Forum.

@Experienced Defender hihi :D 

The asymmetric was created by cleon and results weren't bad at the end. With the changes suggested by @sporadicsmiles it could be some stuff. But it was some crazy attacking stuff. The new suits better for my side.

Edited by HanziZoloman

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26 minutes ago, HanziZoloman said:

The asymmetric was created by cleon

I suppose Cleon created such kind of tactic for an earlier FM version (FM18 or before), when it was possible to use the team shape to manipulate poorly balanced setups of roles and duties. But I strongly doubt that someone like Cleon would create such a tactic for FM19/20. 

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Posted (edited)

Yeah that could be the crucial point. Do you have any ideas for my actual more balanced tactic?

idea is: less is more, balanced to beat minor as well as superior teams and coaching with shouts.

Edited by HanziZoloman

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4 hours ago, HanziZoloman said:

Do you have any ideas for my actual more balanced tactic?

But you said (in an earlier post) that you now have a tactic that works well for you. I am referring to this 442: 

 

21 hours ago, HanziZoloman said:

154210282_2020-01-06(1).thumb.png.423f8a6f24fb83b89dbb2e464401f7f1.png

Does it still work or...?

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Posted (edited)

No it's a good tactic and it works but I am always interested in other opinions. Espescially your comments in other tactic threads has always been helpful to read. So if you have any suggestions fire it out if not, I'll take it as a compliment :D

A little bit of topic: How do you guys handle a deep squad with much options? I have too many good players and haven't even signed new ones.

Edited by HanziZoloman

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3 minutes ago, HanziZoloman said:

No it's a good tactic and it works but I am always interested in other opinions

As long as it works, my only advice is - don't make changes. 

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59 minutes ago, HanziZoloman said:

A little bit of topic: How do you guys handle a deep squad with much options? I have too many good players and haven't even signed new ones.

I don’t like having deep squads because players complain too much about playing time which could effect the team morale. Even with a thinner squad of about 22 the players will still complain but it’s a lot more manageable. 

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Posted (edited)

Yeah #metoo but In Scotland I have many injuries during a season. 

Edited by HanziZoloman

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Posted (edited)

That was a successful campaign! Just the tactic plus teamshouts during the match nothing else.

955081625_2020-01-08(1).thumb.png.f890564b28548576b86d326801e47885.png

Espescially the last match at Celtic Park was one of my best matches even if my side lost. We were close turning the match around. Also great the fact that we did not lose a match at home.

 

Edited by HanziZoloman

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Thats great, glad things are looking up for you! Closing the gap between yourself and Celtic is a tough task, but definitely possible. Hopefully they give you a decent budget to strengthen the squad

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Posted (edited)

Thanks man but they gave me zero and I fear there will be a sell out :(

How do you react on complete sell outs of the best players? I mean not only my complete CBs also my WMP and my MC (transfer window just opened) and of course my players want to join Premier League Clubs für nen Pfennig (for a penny).

Edited by HanziZoloman

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On 06/01/2020 at 23:35, Experienced Defender said:

I suppose Cleon created such kind of tactic for an earlier FM version (FM18 or before), when it was possible to use the team shape to manipulate poorly balanced setups of roles and duties. But I strongly doubt that someone like Cleon would create such a tactic for FM19/20. 

Then you'd be wrong. 

There was no poorly balanced roles and duties. What you have to remember is anything I create is created specifically for my players. You don't know what their attributes are, what I was wanting from the players and so on. Nothing has changed, I still play the exact same way. The old team shape setting wasn't able to cover for poorly designed tactics so what you said makes no sense anyway.

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9 hours ago, HanziZoloman said:

Thanks man but they gave me zero and I fear there will be a sell out :(

How do you react on complete sell outs of the best players? I mean not only my complete CBs also my WMP and my MC (transfer window just opened) and of course my players want to join Premier League Clubs für nen Pfennig (for a penny).

Look to the Youth.

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29 minutes ago, Cleon said:

Then you'd be wrong. 

There was no poorly balanced roles and duties. What you have to remember is anything I create is created specifically for my players. You don't know what their attributes are, what I was wanting from the players and so on. Nothing has changed, I still play the exact same way. The old team shape setting wasn't able to cover for poorly designed tactics so what you said makes no sense anyway.

Well it was still working as you described it but of course I remember it was for your Sheffield side and I just thought well who is Sheffield in Scotland? :D
well I overestimate my players and the other tactic was suiting them more. Yet with your tactic there where some fine developments.

@denen123 already plundered! Some of them are already bidding there farewells after their breakthrough this season. Yet you’re right I’ve to try to bring the next generation. 

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5 hours ago, Cleon said:

Then you'd be wrong. 

There was no poorly balanced roles and duties. What you have to remember is anything I create is created specifically for my players. You don't know what their attributes are, what I was wanting from the players and so on. Nothing has changed, I still play the exact same way. The old team shape setting wasn't able to cover for poorly designed tactics so what you said makes no sense anyway.

Okay then, I apologize. My bad.

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Hey guys, with two matches in the new Saison I’m still good with my 442. no tactical changes just shouts and beating the rangers at home. But as we know that AI ist adapting to systems I want to create a new one to have in the backpocket. 
how about something like this:

              DFLa    PFs

              MEZa RPMs

WBs.           HB.           WBa    
              
          CBd.  CBstop. CBd

                     SKs

mentality Bal.

everything else on default

play out of def/ distribute to defenders / FB

idea is a very creative midfield Behind a two striker attack, supported by WBs to give width. Controlled possession with counter elements

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Hey guys,

need some help for my hearts again. As I still use the flat 442 tactic as disribed up the topic I had a decent run with no losses at home in a complete season and starting the second with 15 games without a loss in the new one.

BUT I am struggling against Bus Parking Teams and often win by sheer luck and against bigger teams like in European League and Celtic. 
as many of you have three tactics with only little adjustments I was trying to change my basic tactic a little bit weren’t much successful. My team had more difficulties and I switched back to basic in hope for gathering at least a draw.

How to modify the flat 442 against much weaker and much bigger squads?

thanks 

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Again at the motor is stuttering and I am in need of some good advice:

at the moment we play possession football as my players are not the fastest in the league (Acc & Pac low) we are also low in technique but high in mental attributes (bra, ldr, pos, tea, dec)

tactic is this:

           F9  AF

IWsu     MCat     WMsu

               DLP

FBat   CDde CDde   IWBde

                 SKde

sometimes we switch the sides during match (IW & WM and so on)

Mentality: Balanced

IP low crosses (small striker) & wide 

IT distr. to CD & FB

OP -

LoE & DL Standard 

mostly we get draws 0-0 at the moment, we don’t get much goals against but are struggling to score ourself. How can I rise the threat on the opponents goal while still keep our Defense stability?

I don’t think that I need to change much as my team is hard to beat. A little more in the front that would be the salt in the soup... 

 

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10 hours ago, HanziZoloman said:

 F9  AF

IWsu     MCat     WMsu

               DLP

FBat   CDde CDde   IWBde

                 SKde

Which is the duty of your DLP (defend or support)?

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4 minutes ago, hannahrr said:

As an actual Hearts fan, the start of this entire thread was alarmingly close to real life. :(

true I also follow the Hearts a little, they have a german coach now.

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58 minutes ago, HanziZoloman said:

It’s support

Okay, it makes more sense than if he was on defend, because you already have the IWB on defend. If both were on defend duty, your tactic would be way too conservative, given that both the formation and tactic in general are already conservative in essence. 

 

11 hours ago, HanziZoloman said:

Mentality: Balanced

IP low crosses (small striker) & wide 

IT distr. to CD & FB

OP -

LoE & DL Standard 

mostly we get draws 0-0 at the moment, we don’t get much goals against but are struggling to score ourself. How can I rise the threat on the opponents goal while still keep our Defense stability?

The problem is that your formation 4132 is rather defensive, so it's not about being dangerous in attack and/or scoring a lot of goals, but rather about being solid and hard to break down in the first place.

I don't know your team, so it's difficult to give you any definite advice, but maybe you could up the mentality to Positive and change passing to shorter.

And leave both crosses and width on default settings for now. 

11 hours ago, HanziZoloman said:

my players are not the fastest in the league (Acc & Pac low)

This is about your team in general, but what about your strikers? Are they also slow?

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Thx for your advice of course I‘ll try. My strikers are like 14 on acc and pac, I have two scorer and two creative strikers (a little slower than the scorer like 12) striker at also not the biggest dude (that’s why low crosses). 
Actually I try WMat and IWat, that’s not much better but also not worse. It leads to more goals by the WM (after crosses from FBat.

I‘ll try positive mentality and shorter passing.

btw why width on default?

Edited by HanziZoloman

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3 minutes ago, HanziZoloman said:

My strikers are like 14 on acc and pac, I have two scorer and two creative strikers (a little slower than the scorer like 12) striker at also not the biggest dude (that’s why low crosses)

Then you should rather play counter-attacking than possession football with this particular formation (4132). 

 

6 minutes ago, HanziZoloman said:

I‘ll try positive mentality and shorter passing.

btw why width on default?

Why on wide? ;)

Start with default, and later in a match you can easily tweak it to either wider or narrower if needed. Wider width tends to encourage more crosses, which does not make much sense given that your strikers are small. 

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18 minutes ago, Experienced Defender said:

Then you should rather play counter-attacking than possession football with this particular formation (4132). 


ok with that I’m not much experienced but if you‘ll help me, maybe it could work out. Most opponents park a bus against my side the other two are rangers and Celtic.

 

Why on wide? ;)

Start with default, and later in a match you can easily tweak it to either wider or narrower if needed. Wider width tends to encourage more crosses, which does not make much sense given that your strikers are small. 
 

Bingo ;) 
 

Well I just tell some of my impressions, my strikers actually get not much involved in the play. The AF is one of my best players but he just get long balls or hopeless crosses.

my F9 is also a very good player of my squad he has much possession but can’t get the last pass to the AF. The MCat should arrive later and hit second balls from outside the box but usually he is just passing around.

all the last goals where crosses from FBat to WMat.

I also have a decent IW and two good DLPs my team is good in vision and my defenders are also very solid.

PS how do you split your quotes that you can answers one by one?

PSII: with positive mentality the defensive stability is gone

Edited by HanziZoloman

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48 minutes ago, HanziZoloman said:

Most opponents park a bus against my side

But if so, why have you opted for such basically defensive formation in the first place? 4132 is a system that primarily suits underdogs. 

 

51 minutes ago, HanziZoloman said:

with positive mentality the defensive stability is gone

How do you know it's due to the mentality and not some other change you've possibly made? 

 

52 minutes ago, HanziZoloman said:

how do you split your quotes that you can answers one by one?

Just mark the part you want to quote and hover over it until you see the "Quote selection"  box. Then click on that box and that's it.

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9 hours ago, Experienced Defender said:

But if so, why have you opted for such basically defensive formation in the first place? 4132 is a system that primarily suits underdogs. 

Well I am an underdog. My team is below average or average in most parts of the skills just mentally the lads are top. Before this tactic I had this flat 442 which had worked but also ended in series of draws. I changed the formation based on some of your comments in another thread, also it worked out well in the first place but also ended in series of draws and clear defeats against Rangers and Celtic. Also I had tried but failed to develop a tactic against the scottish giants. 

Usually I try to play Counter but end stuck in my own third of the pitch and counters are limited to long hail mary passes to the striker:

setup for counter the giants

                    AFat      AFat

IWsu                  B2B                 WMsu

                              A    

FBat          CDde       CDde        FBsu

                           SKde

mentally: balanced

IP: sl. more direct / low cr. / higher tempo / wide ( ;) I know)

IT: distr. CD & FB / counter

OoP: LoE lower / pressing more urgent

9 hours ago, Experienced Defender said:

How do you know it's due to the mentality and not some other change you've possibly made? 

Well I tried but I'm still evaluating as I am in the final part of season and had already changed the system during the season once (s.a.). I am glad if you keep helping me because your feedback is and had been very helpful to me (also from other threads)

9 hours ago, Experienced Defender said:

Just mark the part you want to quote and hover over it until you see the "Quote selection"  box. Then click on that box and that's it.

:D

Edited by HanziZoloman

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With positive mentality it is more like an open battle, my team is not ready to play positive. Do you have any other idea?

The width had been a matter as the senseless crosses has been reduced. The impact of shorter passing is not clear I have to watch more games.

The front line is F9 and AF, the MCat won't become a threat I don't know why but he is not at the box shooting he is to much in the back I could try him as a B2B (?) and convert the IWsu in IWat that he is driving inside into the box (?)

 

EDIT

well after loosing a few games I changed tactic again and beat Celtic 1:2 away, could be luck (red cart for Celtic) but what can you see in this tactic?

IFat       DLFsu      IWsu

        MCsu     MCat

                DLPsu

IWBde CDde  CDde  FBat

                  SKde

M: Balanced // IP: low cr. // IT: distr. FB & CD // LoE & DL Standard

Edited by HanziZoloman

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3 hours ago, HanziZoloman said:

Well I am an underdog. My team is below average or average in most parts of the skills just mentally the lads are top. Before this tactic I had this flat 442 which had worked but also ended in series of draws

If you are an underdog, then a series of draws is not bad at all. Provided you want to play realistically.

 

3 hours ago, HanziZoloman said:

I changed the formation based on some of your comments in another thread, also it worked out well in the first place but also ended in series of draws and clear defeats against Rangers and Celtic

Which, again, sounds pretty realistic for an underdog. 

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Well I‘ve made some progress:

standard variation is

IFat.      PFsu/at.     IWsu

         BBM.       APsu/at

                 HBde

IWBsu. CDde.  CDde. FBat

                   SKde

everything on Standard except lower crosses. 
I am creating more and better chances, the opponent is having more chances too bad not so good ones, mostly longshots. I am curious how the things will develop during the season.

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