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What's everyone's interpretation of the midfield 3 for liverpool? 

Would it be a flat 3 or a 2 with a DM possibly?

I have an Anchorman with a Carrilero and a B2B but it seems to be quite passive. I know their midfield is more industrious than creative in real life though.

What roles would work well together on an FM basis that is still quite close to being how they play in real life

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1 hour ago, TacticNewb said:

What's everyone's interpretation of the midfield 3 for liverpool? 

Would it be a flat 3 or a 2 with a DM possibly?

If you want to really replicate how LFC play at the moment, then it's the flat 3. 

The bigger problem are the front 3. While Salah and Firmino do play as strikers, Mane seems to be more of a wide forward. Which means the formation is (probably) a bit asymmetric up front (at least in FM terms).

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2 hours ago, milestobudapest said:

I personally see it has a Half-Back (Fabinho) with two B2B type midfielders (Wijnaldum, Keita, Llana, Ox) but you'll see against tougher opposition while Jurgen likes to keep a B2B player who is more adventurous, he'll have a more static Ball Winning Midfielder alongside.

I'm not playing as a top club so a B2B, BWM and a half back would be your go to choice then?

 

1 hour ago, Experienced Defender said:

If you want to really replicate how LFC play at the moment, then it's the flat 3. 

The bigger problem are the front 3. While Salah and Firmino do play as strikers, Mane seems to be more of a wide forward. Which means the formation is (probably) a bit asymmetric up front (at least in FM terms).

I've got an F9, an IF for the Salah role and I've went for an IW for mane at the moment to see how it plays but with my wing back bombing forward he basically just cuts in most the time.

Do you think having a flat 3 works better with a high line and high press than it does when theres a DM involved?

1 hour ago, FMunderachiever said:

I don't think you can accurately represent Liverpool on the game, in the same way Peps Man City isn't accurate, or Peps Barca.

Systems are too sophisticated for the game and its hard coded stuff to deal with.

I'm not really looking at getting the system bang on really because I know that's pretty hard to implement in game for most systems like you say. I'm just looking at how roles can be translated into game and then I'll pick certain characteristics like pressing etc.

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Liverpool play different variations of a 4123 and a 4231 when they use different players. T How the 3 strikers are set up is largely a factor of how he has set up his midfield and who is playing there and it has been different for different games.

Sometimes Liverpool play with 2 holding mids and sometimes they play with one. 

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1 hour ago, TacticNewb said:

I've got an F9, an IF for the Salah role and I've went for an IW for mane at the moment to see how it plays but with my wing back bombing forward he basically just cuts in most the time

if you use the 4141dm wide formation, I would also go with Firmino as F9, Salah as IF on attack duty (AMR) and Mane as IW on support (in AML), when it comes to the front 3. But I don't know how you set up the rest of your tactic, which is also very important. 

 

1 hour ago, TacticNewb said:

Do you think having a flat 3 works better with a high line and high press than it does when theres a DM involved?

Both can work, provided you set the tactic as a whole in a proper manner. I personally would prefer to have a DM, and I would play him as a HB (so as to allow both fullbacks to bomb forward a lot and provide as much support in the final third as possible), but it certainly does not mean that a flat midfield three is a bad idea. 

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1 hora atrás, Rashidi disse:

Liverpool play different variations of a 4123 and a 4231 when they use different players. T How the 3 strikers are set up is largely a factor of how he has set up his midfield and who is playing there and it has been different for different games.

Sometimes Liverpool play with 2 holding mids and sometimes they play with one. 

But they always defend in a very compact and narrow 433. That very rarely changes. So any replication of Liverpool has to start with a 4123 or flat mid 433.

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My 4-3-3 inspired by Liverpool 19/20.

GK Becker SK A

RB Arnold WB A                                    LCB Virgil BPD D                                  RCB Gomez CB D                                LB Robertson FB L                               

RCM Henderson BWM S                    CM Fabinho CM D                              LCM Wijnaldum CM S (hold position PI)

RAM Salah IF A                                    CF Firmino F9                                      LAM Mane IW S

Mentality- Attacking

Play offside trap

Counter-press and counter

Play out of defence, whipped crosses, hit early crosses.

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5 hours ago, LDP said:

I would go for

LCM DLP support (Wijnaldum)

RCM BBM (Henderson)

CDM DLP defend (Fabinho)

 

If you play Ox either a Mezzala attack or APM attack

Klopp doesn't use playmakers in his tactics. The counter press is the playmaker.

I feel this season Hendo has been playing more adventurous like BBM or even MEZ or something of a hybrid. He works up and down but also in the half spaces. Since Fabinho's injury he's back to playing at the DMC position though.

I think most of the midfielders are just workhorses all over the field. They help win the ball back, recycle it and provide cover. Occasionally, Winajldum or Keita will become a goal threat. Mostly it's the fullbacks plus the front 3 that are the main weapons.

Liverpool and Klopp have mastered the transitional game. Plus now they can mix up their style as needed. They can go from high octane counter pressing to patient possession based playing style seamlessly. 

But they do not use playmaking roles IMO.

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From watching them...I'd go with

Mez (s)----Mez (s)

HB (d)

 

Fabinho usually fills the gaps vacated at the back so HB could work (maybe A as well?) As others say Gini and Hendo/Miler attack the half space so Mezzalas for both.

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14 hours ago, Jean0987654321 said:

From watching them...I'd go with

Mez (s)----Mez (s)

HB (d)

 

Fabinho usually fills the gaps vacated at the back so HB could work (maybe A as well?) As others say Gini and Hendo/Miler attack the half space so Mezzalas for both.

I agree about the half spaces, but don't you think they are not that creative as Mezzalas? They are hardworking and industrious like BBM or Carrileros. They cover and support all over the field. 

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Just now, yonko said:

I agree about the half spaces, but don't you think they are not that creative as Mezzalas? They are hardworking and industrious like BBM or Carrileros. They cover and support all over the field. 

Gini and Milner/Hendo are very technical players that do fine in the Mez role. They work hard but it's not the only thing they do...

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I've watched a lof of liverpool games paying particular attention to their defensive shape, and I think that they definitely play with a flat midfield 3 with three man in the CM strata. In the heart of the midfield, usually Fabinho, acts as a deep lying playmaker (maybe not a playmaker but definitely a role that comes deep to get the ball), often dropping deep to get the ball when the team are in possession. In possession he is the deepest of the midfield three, playing like he was playing in the DM strata, I think that is why most people think the midfield consists of 1 DM and 2 CMs. But when the team are out of possession, Fabinho is in line with the other 2 midfielders (well, at least most of the time), or, when pressing, sometimes even positioned slightly higher than the other two. In FM, defensively, a DM does not behave like that, you can only achieve this kind of defensive shape with a flat midfield three.

Here is a detailed analysis of liverpool's defensive shape and pressing if you are interested: https://spielverlagerung.com/2019/05/09/liverpools-pressing-system/

Here are some examples of Liverpool's defensive shape to provide evidence:


pool.thumb.png.91d25e08a5837a0bdc6e9d3841b7e03d.png

pool2.thumb.png.230abd9c8d93237d160731d3a9e66260.png

pool3.thumb.png.e74b0ad341490c30d3901d215940fe9b.png

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16 minutes ago, yonko said:

They are hardworking and industrious like BBM or Carrileros. They cover and support all over the field

 

15 minutes ago, Jean0987654321 said:

Gini and Milner/Hendo are very technical players that do fine in the Mez role. They work hard but it's not the only thing they do...

I am more inclined to agree with yonko on this. While all these 3 guys (+ Keita) clearly can play as mezzalas (among other roles), it does not automatically mean that Klopp plays them in that role. And what is even more certain - he definitely does not play with 2 mezzalas at the same time. While sometimes one outer CM (usually Keita/Ox/Lallana) does seem to be played as a mezzala, the other one is basically a carrilero. 

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3 hours ago, Jean0987654321 said:

Gini and Milner/Hendo are very technical players that do fine in the Mez role. They work hard but it's not the only thing they do...

I was talking more about IRL not in FM terms. 

2 hours ago, Experienced Defender said:

 

I am more inclined to agree with yonko on this. While all these 3 guys (+ Keita) clearly can play as mezzalas (among other roles), it does not automatically mean that Klopp plays them in that role. And what is even more certain - he definitely does not play with 2 mezzalas at the same time. While sometimes one outer CM (usually Keita/Ox/Lallana) does seem to be played as a mezzala, the other one is basically a carrilero. 

I'm thinking more like a hybrid role between BBM and Carrilero.

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39 minutes ago, milestobudapest said:

BBM works perfectly fine but you need a hard working midfielder that is both technical and defensively sound.

Okay mate. But I was asking yonko about the "hybrid role" he mentioned in his post. 

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4 hours ago, Experienced Defender said:

Okay, but which role would it be in FM?

I wasn't talking about a role that exist in FM currently. I was just saying that the way Klopp has 2 of his midfielders playing is like a hybrid between BBM and CAR. Meaning they play box to box but also shuttle sideways to cover gaps from fullbacks or to support play/recycle the ball. They play in the half spaces too. 

Wijnaldum / Keita / Ox can be played as BBM with Stay Wider PI, while Hendo / Milner can be played as CAR. Player Traits can be used to add modifications to the roles.

1 hour ago, Ramsdal03 said:

Think  2 x B2B would be too attacking and 2 X Carillero too defensive. Would it be easier to create that hybrid with CM(S) roles with PI? 

The BBM and CAR roles have special behavioral coding in the ME to play a certain way, which cannot be replicated by customizing the regular CM role.

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I looked at a highlight of Salah's goal vs Sheffield United. I took an interesting screenshot of the moment when Van Dijk passes the ball over the top to Robertson.

221447890_liverpoolteamshape.thumb.png.442f166b2f06af621aff4a1352690810.png

This is very typical shape of the team. The only exception is Hendo's position during this particular moment. Normally he would be more central and of course usually that would be Fabinho in that role.

But look at how wide Milner and Wijnaldum are. They look like Carrileros here. And where Trent and Robertson are. Bobby in the typical F9 role. Mane and Salah look like STs - thinking AF-A. 

Now, this may be more because of how Sheffield U had lineup as well in their 5-3-2 shape.

Thoughts anyone?

Edited by yonko
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2 hours ago, yonko said:

I looked at a highlight of Salah's goal vs Sheffield United. I took an interesting screenshot of the moment when Van Dijk passes the ball over the top to Robertson.

221447890_liverpoolteamshape.thumb.png.442f166b2f06af621aff4a1352690810.png

This is very typical shape of the team. The only exception is Hendo's position during this particular moment. Normally he would be more central and of course usually that would be Fabinho in that role.

But look at how wide Milner and Wijnaldum are. They look like Carrileros here. And where Trent and Robertson are. Bobby in the typical F9 role. Mane and Salah look like STs - thinking AF-A. 

Now, this may be more because of how Sheffield U had lineup as well in their 5-3-2 shape.

Thoughts anyone?

After watching this match (Liverpool were superb btw), I'm sticking to my guns saying the DM is a DLP def and although Klopps words were "Gegenpressing is the playmaker", when watching the DLP def in FM, Fabinho/Henderson plays exactly like what you see in matches. Based on the middle 3 I'd go with Wijnaldum as a Carrielo and Henderson as BBM with 'stay wider', 'move into channels' and 'take more risks' instructions added as Hendo still tracks back and helps in defence. And of course, as I said above, Fabinho as a DLP def but with take more risks instruction. I think the DM as HB would surely be too deep.

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7 hours ago, yonko said:

I looked at a highlight of Salah's goal vs Sheffield United. I took an interesting screenshot of the moment when Van Dijk passes the ball over the top to Robertson.

221447890_liverpoolteamshape.thumb.png.442f166b2f06af621aff4a1352690810.png

This is very typical shape of the team. The only exception is Hendo's position during this particular moment. Normally he would be more central and of course usually that would be Fabinho in that role.

But look at how wide Milner and Wijnaldum are. They look like Carrileros here. And where Trent and Robertson are. Bobby in the typical F9 role. Mane and Salah look like STs - thinking AF-A. 

Now, this may be more because of how Sheffield U had lineup as well in their 5-3-2 shape.

Thoughts anyone?

In this particular match, Liverpool's starting formation (at least nominally) was not their typical 433 but 4231, with Milner in AMR, Firmino AMC and Salah as the lone striker. Later in the match, I think they switched to the 433 at some point, but given that this screenshot is from the 4th minute, I would assume it still was the 4231. However, Milner's positioning looks a bit strange here for an AMR. Even with the overlap, he should not be that deep in this particular phase of an attack if he was played as AMR.

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Agree with @Experienced Defender on the formation for the last match as well as the one Liverpool played against Wolves. 

It seems to me that they line up in a 4411 in games against teams that use a back 5.

Klopp had switched to this against United when they were down and Lallana (Playing RM) got the equalizer with a tap in at the back post after a cross.

If I were to try and replicate Liverpool in their last game on FM, for me it would be:

                                                SKa (Allison)

CWBs (Trent)  CD (Gomez)  BPD (Van Dijk)  WBs (Robertson)

WMs (Milner)  CAR (Henderson)  MEZ (Wijnaldum)  WMa (Mane)

                                          AMs (Firminho)

                                           AF (Salah)

Edited by divij13
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After looking at all the possible combinations I think I'm going to go for an Anchorman with a B2B and a Carrilero and just change roles for different situations.

What are the thoughts on team instructions for the klopp way of playing? I see most klopp tactics having everything high line, urgent pressing full throttle type but this seems slight overkill and quite suicidal. What would be as close to real life but would preferably work in-game.

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On 31/12/2019 at 14:30, FMunderachiever said:

I don't think you can accurately represent Liverpool on the game, in the same way Peps Man City isn't accurate, or Peps Barca.

Systems are too sophisticated for the game and its hard coded stuff to deal with.

 

I think my 433 is pretty Liverpoolesque tbf. 

I play three forwards, two CF(A) flanking an F9 doing the Firmino link up stuff. 

Main goal threats are the wider strikers pushing on. I'm aware you can get good results with inside forwards from the AM strata but it's never quite worked out for me. 

My wide strikers do push right out to the touch line to use the space when necessary but they default to narrower, pushing the channels looking to get behind. 

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1 hour ago, Experienced Defender said:

In this particular match, Liverpool's starting formation (at least nominally) was not their typical 433 but 4231, with Milner in AMR, Firmino AMC and Salah as the lone striker. Later in the match, I think they switched to the 433 at some point, but given that this screenshot is from the 4th minute, I would assume it still was the 4231. However, Milner's positioning looks a bit strange here for an AMR. Even with the overlap, he should not be that deep in this particular phase of an attack if he was played as AMR.

Agree and disagree :)

I think that it was clearly not 4231 like the tv said like you mention - but more 433 as we are used to. If you see the positioning of Gini and Milner its quite the same, They drop deep like halfbacks, cover area like carrileros and at the same time supporting the attack like B2B. Henderson in between as an Anchor/Ball Winning machine.  

when they attack you could argue it looks like 4-3-1-2 - with Firmino as False 9/SS - But when they defend it's quite clear that it's 4-3-3 unit divided in straight lines. 

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4 hours ago, divij13 said:

Agree with @Experienced Defender on the formation for the last match

 

4 hours ago, divij13 said:

If I were to try and replicate Liverpool in their last game on FM, for me it would be:

                                                SKa (Allison)

CWBs (Trent)  CD (Gomez)  BPD (Van Dijk)  WBs (Robertson)

WMs (Milner)  CAR (Henderson)  MEZ (Wijnaldum)  WMa (Mane)

                                          AMs (Firminho)

                                           AF (Salah)

I am glad you agree with me, but that's not what I said in my post.

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10 minutes ago, divij13 said:

Just to clarify, I was only talking about the fact that you thought they played 4231 / 4411

Okay, but 4231 and 4411 are 2 different formations.

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1 hour ago, Experienced Defender said:

Okay, but 4231 and 4411 are 2 different formations.

no they aren't. in real life they are literally the same formation because the way FM interprets formations isn't the same as IRL. 

 

 

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14 hours ago, LDP said:

After watching this match (Liverpool were superb btw), I'm sticking to my guns saying the DM is a DLP def and although Klopps words were "Gegenpressing is the playmaker", when watching the DLP def in FM, Fabinho/Henderson plays exactly like what you see in matches. Based on the middle 3 I'd go with Wijnaldum as a Carrielo and Henderson as BBM with 'stay wider', 'move into channels' and 'take more risks' instructions added as Hendo still tracks back and helps in defence. And of course, as I said above, Fabinho as a DLP def but with take more risks instruction. I think the DM as HB would surely be too deep.

I don't think you can have both stay wider and move into channels for BBM. When selecting one, the other becomes not selectable. 

9 hours ago, Experienced Defender said:

In this particular match, Liverpool's starting formation (at least nominally) was not their typical 433 but 4231, with Milner in AMR, Firmino AMC and Salah as the lone striker. Later in the match, I think they switched to the 433 at some point, but given that this screenshot is from the 4th minute, I would assume it still was the 4231. However, Milner's positioning looks a bit strange here for an AMR. Even with the overlap, he should not be that deep in this particular phase of an attack if he was played as AMR.

I think it was Milner who passed the ball from this deep position to Van Dijk just the moment before that. 

I didn't see the match, but if Liverpool started with 4231 formation as you say, that would explain Hendo's positioning being to the right.

3 hours ago, Bluebird123 said:

no they aren't. in real life they are literally the same formation because the way FM interprets formations isn't the same as IRL. 

 

 

And how are formations interpreted IRL differently than in FM? 

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I've been trying to replicate Liverpool's system this year but I'm finding it super difficult to find the right balance. The team either is solid defensively but lacks the freedom and intesity in attack or ends up being too top-heavy and exposed to balls over the top.

 

Having a hard working midfield (BBM, CM(D), CAR for example) and putting the attacking onus on the front 3 and full backs does provide good solidity but unfortunately it feels that with this match engine, full backs fail to really create any clear cut opportunities for forwards and Inside Forwards don't get close enough to the goal. Switch an Inside Forward to a striker position (AF, CF) and you lose that balance.

Edited by milestobudapest
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5 hours ago, Experienced Defender said:

Okay, but 4231 and 4411 are 2 different formations.

Well, they are kind of. But the 4411 can very easily look like a 4231 using roles, duties and TIs.  And vice-versa.

Even in real life, I sometimes have trouble figuring out the difference between the two when watching games. 

A bit like the 41212 and the 4312. But hey, that's just me :)

 

 

Edited by divij13
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40 minutes ago, yonko said:

I didn't see the match, but if Liverpool started with 4231 formation as you say, that would explain Hendo's positioning being to the right

It was the nominal formation that appeared on the TV  screen prior to the kick-off. Sheffield's was portrayed as 532 (as opposed to their usual 352).

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20 minutes ago, divij13 said:

Well, they are kind of. But the 4411 can very easily look like a 4231 using roles, duties and TIs.  And vice-versa

I can agree that 4231 and 4411 are analogous formations, but not quite the same. What I mean is - a team that (usually) play in 4231 can relatively easily adapt to 4411 (and vice versa). 

 

24 minutes ago, divij13 said:

A bit like the 41212 and the 4312

Yes :thup:

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3 hours ago, Experienced Defender said:

It was the nominal formation that appeared on the TV  screen prior to the kick-off. Sheffield's was portrayed as 532 (as opposed to their usual 352).

If they used wingbacks, it was 5-3-2. If they used wide midfielders then it's 3-5-2. For me anyway.

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CM (S) - Carrielo (S)

BWM (S)

This is imo, the best set up for Liverpool. Henderson covers for TAA due to Salah's lack of tracking back, I often see him heading to the right side to double up on whatever winger is taking on TAA. Fabinho is a DM, but an aggressive one who doesn't mind being out of position chasing (and winning) the ball. Wijnaldum has an interesting role, more offensive than the others but not greatly so, perhaps the PIs 'Dribble More' and 'Get Further Forward' would suit him. 

Edited by FlairRA
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As others have said, the Liverpool system is highly nuanced depending on who is available. For example, OX is definitely plays a MEZ-S (RCM) which actually creates space for Salah inside. Henderson also played this role against Chelsea last season, allowing Salah to come inside and hit one from 25 yards out... probably doesn’t have the dribbling/flair to be a MEZ in game so BBM with run wide with ball would do. 
 

Gini & Milner usually rotate that MCL spot but they play it very differently. Gini is a lot more central, whereas Milner drifts out wide to cover from Robertson. So I’d go with CM-S for Gini & Carilero for Milner... it all depends on what combination of roles suits your tactic best in game. 

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On 03/01/2020 at 04:46, Experienced Defender said:

In this particular match, Liverpool's starting formation (at least nominally) was not their typical 433 but 4231, with Milner in AMR, Firmino AMC and Salah as the lone striker. Later in the match, I think they switched to the 433 at some point, but given that this screenshot is from the 4th minute, I would assume it still was the 4231. However, Milner's positioning looks a bit strange here for an AMR. Even with the overlap, he should not be that deep in this particular phase of an attack if he was played as AMR.

Going back to this for a bid. I read somewhere an analysis of the game where it said that Liverpool did play their 433 formation but Klopp had Hendo drop deep to the right of Gomez, making it a back three to help play the ball from the back and have advantage over Sheffield's two STs. This also allowed Trent and Robertson to push higher up and pin the wingbacks further back, thus locking Sheffield into a deep 532 shape and preventing them from playing their usual game.

This makes sense to me.

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1 hour ago, yonko said:

Going back to this for a bid. I read somewhere an analysis of the game where it said that Liverpool did play their 433 formation

Quite possible. I also think they pretty early switched to the 433. I only cited the nominal starting formation, which was portrayed as 4231. 

 

1 hour ago, yonko said:

but Klopp had Hendo drop deep to the right of Gomez, making it a back three to help play the ball from the back and have advantage over Sheffield's two STs. This also allowed Trent and Robertson to push higher up and pin the wingbacks further back, thus locking Sheffield into a deep 532 shape and preventing them from playing their usual game.

This makes sense to me

For me too :thup:

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For me a DLP has always featured in a Klopp system in one way or another and is used depending on the system. In a possession based system where he looks to control the game it's used in a defensive capacity (DMC/MC(D)) but if he goes with the double pivot it'll be the supporting role next to a more "destroyer" type. With the Liverpool it's either Fabinho in the most defensive role in midfield or if you're going double pivot it's Gini. It was the same at Dortmund, before Sahin went to Real Madrid he was the DLP in the double pivot in midfield with Bender and there was also Gundogan and Kehl in the double pivot.

There is always a process with Klopp's teams from the point that he takes over. Usually it all starts with either a 4411 or a 442 and once the team has learnt how to defend in two banks of four in the Klopp way (or actually the Wolfgang Frank who was influenced by Arrigo Sacchi) he then eventually morphs into a 433/4231 once he has the team he needs. He did the same with Mainz (started with 442) and Dortmund (started with a 4411/442 hybrid with Frei and Petric). Klopp actually always starts with the defensive side of the game when he arrives at a club.

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the positions of the front three is the big debate to me i see salah and mane as advanced forwards and firmino as a number ten 

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but i still see Liverpool as a flat 3 man midfield with the middle man been deep lying play maker and the other two been more box to box, but i would love to see klopp himself play football manager and see how he sets up his team, 

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19 minutes ago, latrell said:

but i still see Liverpool as a flat 3 man midfield with the middle man been deep lying play maker and the other two been more box to box, but i would love to see klopp himself play football manager and see how he sets up his team, 

Love this, would be great to see how a pro manager would set up a team in football manager.

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On 31/12/2019 at 23:38, yonko said:

Klopp doesn't use playmakers in his tactics. The counter press is the playmaker.

I feel this season Hendo has been playing more adventurous like BBM or even MEZ or something of a hybrid. He works up and down but also in the half spaces. Since Fabinho's injury he's back to playing at the DMC position though.

I think most of the midfielders are just workhorses all over the field. They help win the ball back, recycle it and provide cover. Occasionally, Winajldum or Keita will become a goal threat. Mostly it's the fullbacks plus the front 3 that are the main weapons.

Liverpool and Klopp have mastered the transitional game. Plus now they can mix up their style as needed. They can go from high octane counter pressing to patient possession based playing style seamlessly. 

But they do not use playmaking roles IMO.

It depends on who is in the midfield three.

I would say that Gini - Fabinho - Hendo is a BBM - DLP - BBM set up

Its hard to replicate Keita and Ox's roles though because they are typified by driving runs forward carrying the ball quickly and making space for others in their wake.

In game I usually stick to a BBM - DLP - BBM combo as its easier to set up in game.

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On 05/01/2020 at 09:34, latrell said:

but i still see Liverpool as a flat 3 man midfield with the middle man been deep lying play maker and the other two been more box to box, but i would love to see klopp himself play football manager and see how he sets up his team, 

I think Fabinho plays more as a DM in terms of putting him in a football manager tactic.  He splits the centrebacks and is the 'pivot'

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