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What is visibly wrong with this tactic?


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So to begin with, this system worked. Haller was scoring more than I expected. We dominated sides. We looked good!

Now, however, we lose away from home all the time & even struggle to get wins against anyone at home. Just after some pointers of how this can tweaked. 

 

Thanks.

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3 hours ago, RegistaNoble said:

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What is visibly wrong with this tactic?

This tactic is extremely aggressive and gung-ho even for top sides (such as Liverpool, City and the like), let alone West Ham. That's the first and most obvious observation by taking just a quick glance at it.

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6 minutes ago, Experienced Defender said:

This tactic is extremely aggressive and gung-ho even for top sides (such as Liverpool, City and the like), let alone West Ham. That's the first and most obvious observation by taking just a quick glance at it.

What makes it so gung-ho? I just tried to make it different on each side. Offer different threats going forward 

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Your defensive instructions are very aggressive, if you don't win the ball quickly your team will be all over the place.  Against teams who cant move the ball quickly this can work, but teams who can and do so into space can exploit this especially with tight marking.  Your practically counter pressing non-stop.

I think your a bit limited in your attack, as you say it worked but now isn't I guess your suffering from opponents changing there expectations and being more defensive. That will reduce the space you have for these attacks.  The playmakers were able to launch the front 3 but now I guess the front 3 are too out numbered.

I'd look to increase the variety in the attacks. The main thing I would do is in a fast attacking system is not have two playmakers as the CM pair in a 433.  change one of the playmakers to a "runner" role to give the remaining playmaker another option in front of him.

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I was rewording and forgot to paste this bit back in :onmehead:

Specifically i'd try the MCL as the playmaker.  I'd prefer DLP-Su as the more conservative option, being deeper should give the IW-Su space inside but also some cover for the WB-At.

The MCR i'd try anything from CM-Su, BWM-Su, BBM-Su, MEZ-Su, CM-At or MEZ-At.  This would likely be a "dynamic" role that changes game to game or even during games depending on the situation.  The DR might need to be balanced with this.

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1 minute ago, summatsupeer said:

I was rewording and forgot to paste this bit back in :onmehead:

Specifically i'd try the MCL as the playmaker.  I'd prefer DLP-Su as the more conservative option, being deeper should give the IW-Su space inside but also some cover for the WB-At.

The MCR i'd try anything from CM-Su, BWM-Su, BBM-Su, MEZ-Su, CM-At or MEZ-At.  This would likely be a "dynamic" role that changes game to game or even during games depending on the situation.  The DR might need to be balanced with this.

Glad you said this. I opted for a AP-S on the LCM. And Mez-A on the RCM. I think I put the LB on FB-S and the RB on WB-A but I'll be looking to change that around potentially. The CDM is now just a DM-D

 

I've removed a few defensive instructions to see how that pans out 

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43 minutes ago, RegistaNoble said:

What makes it so gung-ho?

Just look at your instructions. First the in-possession ones: extremely high tempo, pass into space, be more expressive - and all that on a high mentality (Positive).

Then out of possession: higher DL, much higher LOE, extreme pressing, tight marking - and again while playing on a high mentality. Plus the counter-press.

Then look at the left side: WB and AP both on attack duties, which only exacerbates the defensive vulnerabilities created by the aforementioned instructions.

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Maybe changing the WB's to FB's might be a good idea. Might sacrifice a bit going forward but it'll make you less susceptible to counter-attacks.

On a similar note, I would also move the LOE and DL back by one too. Means there's a lesser risk of you being hit by a ball over the top.

I'd suggest making a more defensive version of this tactic to play against the bigger sides too, or for when you want to hold on to a lead. I say this because you have a pretty bad record against the top 6.

 

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1 minute ago, auhsoj said:

Maybe changing the WB's to FB's might be a good idea. Might sacrifice a bit going forward but it'll make you less susceptible to counter-attacks.

On a similar note, I would also move the LOE and DL back by one too. Means there's a lesser risk of you being hit by a ball over the top.

I'd suggest making a more defensive version of this tactic to play against the bigger sides too, or for when you want to hold on to a lead. I say this because you have a pretty bad record against the top 6.

 

I have a bad record against the top six and in away games. My team just tends to switch off in those games 

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Just now, RegistaNoble said:

I have a bad record against the top six and in away games. My team just tends to switch off in those games 

 What sort of goals do you tend to concede in these sorts of games? 

As in are they from balls over the top? Crosses? A good, quick short passing move?

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2 minutes ago, RegistaNoble said:

Usually counter-attacking and patient build up. Oh, and set-plays 

Yeah, I faced similar problems when playing a gegenpress with Bristol City. 

Overall I'd suggest going more defensive by changing the WB's to FB's. 

If you're suffering against teams that play with patient build up than maybe make a plan B that presses less urgently and regroups instead of counter-pressing. 

I would largely stick with that tactic for a long-term tactical identity as I reckon it could work very very well with a better calibre of player. 

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8 hours ago, auhsoj said:

Yeah, I faced similar problems when playing a gegenpress with Bristol City. 

Overall I'd suggest going more defensive by changing the WB's to FB's. 

If you're suffering against teams that play with patient build up than maybe make a plan B that presses less urgently and regroups instead of counter-pressing. 

I would largely stick with that tactic for a long-term tactical identity as I reckon it could work very very well with a better calibre of player. 

I feel like I'm going to try a 3-5-2 next season. Replicate Haller's form with Frankfurt. But this will definitely be on tactic list. I've slightly modified it a bit. I'll send a screenshot shortly.

 

Do you have any suggestions for set-plays?

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6 hours ago, RegistaNoble said:

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With much higher LOE coupled with standard DL, your vertical compactness is now even worse than it initially was.

Extremely high tempo might make sense only if you want to play very fast and direct counter-attacking football. But then - among other things - you need a lower (or at least standard) LOE, not higher (let alone much higher).

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13 minutes ago, Experienced Defender said:

With much higher LOE coupled with standard DL, your vertical compactness is now even worse than it initially was.

Extremely high tempo might make sense only if you want to play very fast and direct counter-attacking football. But then - among other things - you need a lower (or at least standard) LOE, not higher (let alone much higher).

I'm on it. Haha! 

I've created a 5-2-1-2. Am I ok to show you that one too? I'm using it as a secondary formation 

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29 minutes ago, Experienced Defender said:

Yeah, why not.

 It does seem a little bit attacking. But the CWB's are needed I feel, because we need the wide options to support Haller & Ings. Could be wrong, probably is. But we'll see lol

Also, mentality will likely be balanced

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Edited by RegistaNoble
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55 minutes ago, RegistaNoble said:

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55 minutes ago, RegistaNoble said:

But the CWB's are needed I feel, because we need the wide options to support Haller & Ings. Could be wrong, probably is

CWBs are not a problem in a narrow system (provided you have the right players for such a demanding role). But the rest is. Anyway, play and see. 

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9 hours ago, RegistaNoble said:

I feel like I'm going to try a 3-5-2 next season. Replicate Haller's form with Frankfurt. But this will definitely be on tactic list. I've slightly modified it a bit. I'll send a screenshot shortly.

 

Do you have any suggestions for set-plays?

No, sorry,  I'm useless when it comes to set pieces 

9 hours ago, RegistaNoble said:

This is where I'm at now. To me it looks more balanced. Hopefully a few tweaks away from something that could work!

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I would change one of the duties on the left to a support. Just because you might be a bit exposed on the left.

2 hours ago, RegistaNoble said:

 It does seem a little bit attacking. But the CWB's are needed I feel, because we need the wide options to support Haller & Ings. Could be wrong, probably is. But we'll see lol

Also, mentality will likely be balanced

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I quite like that tbh. We'll see how it works for you.

 

I've also just created a system with a Libero on attack, haven't used one before so excited to see how it'll fare.

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1 hour ago, RegistaNoble said:

So what is the problem in that system?

I think you should start with a simple, well-balanced formation (ideally 4141dm wide, which you did use originally), Balanced mentality and no instructions at all. Only set up roles and duties in a simple and logical manner. 

An example of a simple setup you can start with:

Pfat

IWsu                            Wat

DLPsu   MEZsu

DMde

FBat   CDde  CDde   FBsu

SKsu

Then watch the match carefully and make small gradual tweaks, but only if necessary.

 

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