Tactical assistance please

[Becanes]

I'm looking to play vertical tiki taka.  I really want to control possession, stay tight at the back and score goals.  You know, everything.  lol.  I'm doing pretty good in the league.  Finished 4th last season.  A couple of things I struggle with.  I'm not getting the front 3 to play great together.  I've tried different combinations of roles but I just can't seem to settle on anything that's consistent.  Also, I struggle against the big teams.  I usually do change up the tactic (not pictured).  I'll play more cautious, on the counter and maybe drop the AM to central midfield.  Any thoughts on tweaks specifically to get the front 3 clicking more and doing better against the big 6? 

Thanks

[Experienced Defender]

4 hours ago, Becanes said:

 

4 hours ago, Becanes said:

I'm looking to play vertical tiki taka

A tiki-taka (vertical or whatever) with both strikers on attack duty ??? Sorry, but doesn't make sense IMHO. 

Neither do 3 BPDs at the back. If you want to play a hard-core possession style, then even one BPD could be too much, let alone all 3. If you want a more progressive version of possession football, then one BPD is not a bad idea (but not more than one). 

4 hours ago, Becanes said:

stay tight at the back

Then you need to improve vertical compactness, to begin with. You are currently playing with standard DL and higher LOE. Such a combo does not give you an optimal level of compactness (especially as you don't have a DM). So these are potential combinations for you to consider:

- higher DL & higher LOE (decent compactness, but potentially vulnerable to balls over the top)

- higher DL & standard LOE (optimal compactness, but again potentially vulnerable to balls over the top)

- standard DL & standard LOE (decent compactness)

4 hours ago, Becanes said:

I'm not getting the front 3 to play great together.  I've tried different combinations of roles but I just can't seem to settle on anything that's consistent

When a player (or a group of players) does not perform well, it often has to do with more than just their roles alone. There are many possible combinations of roles and duties that can both work and fail, but if the tactic as a whole is set up in a wrong way, then whichever combination you use - it will fail. 

I can give you an example of how I would set up a possession-based tiki-taka-ish tactic and then explain it if you want. So please let me know 

Btw, what's the point of low crosses when you have Haaland up front ???

[Becanes]

28 minutes ago, Experienced Defender said:

 

A tiki-taka (vertical or whatever) with both strikers on attack duty ??? Sorry, but doesn't make sense IMHO. 

Neither do 3 BPDs at the back. If you want to play a hard-core possession style, then even one BPD could be too much, let alone all 3. If you want a more progressive version of possession football, then one BPD is not a bad idea (but not more than one). 

Then you need to improve vertical compactness, to begin with. You are currently playing with standard DL and higher LOE. Such a combo does not give you an optimal level of compactness (especially as you don't have a DM). So these are potential combinations for you to consider:

- higher DL & higher LOE (decent compactness, but potentially vulnerable to balls over the top)

- higher DL & standard LOE (optimal compactness, but again potentially vulnerable to balls over the top)

- standard DL & standard LOE (decent compactness)

When a player (or a group of players) does not perform well, it often has to do with more than just their roles alone. There are many possible combinations of roles and duties that can both work and fail, but if the tactic as a whole is set up in a wrong way, then whichever combination you use - it will fail. 

I can give you an example of how I would set up a possession-based tiki-taka-ish tactic and then explain it if you want. So please let me know 

Btw, what's the point of low crosses when you have Haaland up front ???

I adjust the 2 strikers so they aren't always both on attack.  I guess I thought they would still be staggered with that configuration since that's how it's pictured on the screen.

I used the 3 BPD's at the back because I thought that we be the vertical part in the tiki taka.  Guess I am wrong in thinking that.  I have no problem adjusting to having only one.

I use standard DL and higher LOE because of the balls over the top.  The higher LOE is to get pressure higher up the pitch.

I chose low crosses for the cutbacks.  When I've had it on mixed crosses it doesn't seem like Haaland converts them.  Maybe I need to give it more of a chance.

If you could give me an example setup that would be great.  Thanks. 

[Experienced Defender]

12 hours ago, Becanes said:

I used the 3 BPD's at the back because I thought that we be the vertical part in the tiki taka.  Guess I am wrong in thinking that.  I have no problem adjusting to having only one

Having a BPD will add to the "verticality", but using as many as (all) 3 can "destroy" the possession-based nature of a tiki-taka. 

 

12 hours ago, Becanes said:

I use standard DL and higher LOE because of the balls over the top.  The higher LOE is to get pressure higher up the pitch

If your defense tends to struggle with balls over the top, then perhaps a tiki-taka (or any similar possession-oriented style) is not a good idea for your team to play in the first place. You can try with the Balanced mentality instead of Positive, because that would automatically drop the DL slightly. The problem when you play with standard DL coupled with high LOE is that you have less compactness when defending, because the distance between your lines is bigger than optimal. You can set both lines to standard and then apply a split block so that your more advanced players would put more pressure on the opposition while others maintain solid defensive shape. 

 

12 hours ago, Becanes said:

If you could give me an example setup that would be great

Okay, I'll give you 2 possible versions of the roles and duties setup:

DLFsu    AF

AMat

DLPsu    BBM

CWBsu                           WBsu

CDde BPDde(st) CDde

SKde/su

Or:

DLFsu    AF

AMat

CAR      APsu

CWBsu                              WBsu

CDde BPDde(st) CDde

SKde/su

Instructions can slightly vary depending on whether you use the Positive or Balanced mentality, but these would be basic ones:

- shorter or much shorter passing, play out of defence, work ball into box, standard or slightly narrower width

- counter-press (but be careful, because it can leave your defense too exposed if your players are not good enough to execute it properly)

- depends on the mentality (for a tiki-taka and possession styles in general, both DL and LOE should be set to higher or even much higher, but that could be too risky for your team)

 

 

[Becanes]

6 hours ago, Experienced Defender said:

Having a BPD will add to the "verticality", but using as many as (all) 3 can "destroy" the possession-based nature of a tiki-taka. 

 

If your defense tends to struggle with balls over the top, then perhaps a tiki-taka (or any similar possession-oriented style) is not a good idea for your team to play in the first place. You can try with the Balanced mentality instead of Positive, because that would automatically drop the DL slightly. The problem when you play with standard DL coupled with high LOE is that you have less compactness when defending, because the distance between your lines is bigger than optimal. You can set both lines to standard and then apply a split block so that your more advanced players would put more pressure on the opposition while others maintain solid defensive shape. 

 

Okay, I'll give you 2 possible versions of the roles and duties setup:

DLFsu    AF

AMat

DLPsu    BBM

CWBsu                           WBsu

CDde BPDde(st) CDde

SKde/su

Or:

DLFsu    AF

AMat

CAR      APsu

CWBsu                              WBsu

CDde BPDde(st) CDde

SKde/su

Instructions can slightly vary depending on whether you use the Positive or Balanced mentality, but these would be basic ones:

- shorter or much shorter passing, play out of defence, work ball into box, standard or slightly narrower width

- counter-press (but be careful, because it can leave your defense too exposed if your players are not good enough to execute it properly)

- depends on the mentality (for a tiki-taka and possession styles in general, both DL and LOE should be set to higher or even much higher, but that could be too risky for your team)

 

 

Thank you for the tips and examples.  I'll give these a try.

[Becanes]

On 23/12/2019 at 07:39, Experienced Defender said:

Having a BPD will add to the "verticality", but using as many as (all) 3 can "destroy" the possession-based nature of a tiki-taka. 

 

If your defense tends to struggle with balls over the top, then perhaps a tiki-taka (or any similar possession-oriented style) is not a good idea for your team to play in the first place. You can try with the Balanced mentality instead of Positive, because that would automatically drop the DL slightly. The problem when you play with standard DL coupled with high LOE is that you have less compactness when defending, because the distance between your lines is bigger than optimal. You can set both lines to standard and then apply a split block so that your more advanced players would put more pressure on the opposition while others maintain solid defensive shape. 

 

Okay, I'll give you 2 possible versions of the roles and duties setup:

DLFsu    AF

AMat

DLPsu    BBM

CWBsu                           WBsu

CDde BPDde(st) CDde

SKde/su

Or:

DLFsu    AF

AMat

CAR      APsu

CWBsu                              WBsu

CDde BPDde(st) CDde

SKde/su

Instructions can slightly vary depending on whether you use the Positive or Balanced mentality, but these would be basic ones:

- shorter or much shorter passing, play out of defence, work ball into box, standard or slightly narrower width

- counter-press (but be careful, because it can leave your defense too exposed if your players are not good enough to execute it properly)

- depends on the mentality (for a tiki-taka and possession styles in general, both DL and LOE should be set to higher or even much higher, but that could be too risky for your team)

 

 

What would you do with just controlling possession and not necessarily tiki taka?

[Experienced Defender]

1 hour ago, Becanes said:

What would you do with just controlling possession and not necessarily tiki taka?

The above setup(s) are not tiki-taka in the literal sense. Both are primarily meant to control possession, although if you want controlling possession to be your primary tactical objective, then I'd rather go with the 4141dm wide (a.k.a. 4123) system. But I am not a fan of having possession purely for the sake of possession btw.

[Becanes]

50 minutes ago, Experienced Defender said:

The above setup(s) are not tiki-taka in the literal sense. Both are primarily meant to control possession, although if you want controlling possession to be your primary tactical objective, then I'd rather go with the 4141dm wide (a.k.a. 4123) system. But I am not a fan of having possession purely for the sake of possession btw.

I'm not a fan of having possession for the sake of it either.  I'd like to keep the formation I am using.  I'm partial to 2 up front and 3 in midfield.  I guess the other formation I could try is a 4132 or a 4312.

[Experienced Defender]

20 minutes ago, Becanes said:

I guess the other formation I could try is a 4132 or a 4312

4312 is generally more possession-friendly than 4132.