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Possession/Wide Play 433 Help!

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Hey everyone,

Every year I get my teams to play a style/way that I like which is in my favourite formation the 433. Every FM I have been successful in creating it but this one, I just can't get anything to work (and I have tried multiple variables!!!). So for the first time in almost a decade of playing FMs I am going to reach out for help! This year's FM is really getting to me haha.

I want to play a possession style football (which already goes against this FM's match engine) which in the final third you create overloads on the flanks before getting a low drive cross or pullback to the striker or running midfielder.  Key playmakers in the middle dictate the play and switch the ball from flank to flank, shielded by a DM who breaks up the play and gives it to the APs. 

On the right wing you have a rapid winger who is direct and gets to the by line to cross, supporting by a fullback. On the left you have an inverted winger and can attack the line to cross and/or cut in, who has an overlapping wing back who attacks the by line to cross it in with a low driven ball. 

The striker in previous FMs has been someone I don't mind not getting involved in the build up play so and AF has worked. However I am finding in this FM a CF seems to be needed, which I am happy with. He can drop and support the build up before getting into the box on the end of a cross. 

I like to have one BDP defender next to a standard CB, with a SW behind them who is an able passer and kicker to help play out from the back. 

Defensively, I want to win the ball up high and as quick as possible.

So overall, definitely some elements of Pep Guardiola in this. 

 

After getting something close to work in the Beta, the full game hasn't quite seen the results I am wanting. Too many long range passes from deep, straight up the middle to my striker running in behind and not even crosses from the flanks. I have since changed some roles such as the PF - CF (support play a bit more), HB - DM (idea to be slightly higher up for the press), right WB - FB (help defensively a little more). left CB  to cover to stop the ridiculous onslaught of long long balls over the top (not that any go in as you cant score 1vs1 this year).

This is my tactic and strongest 11:

2089047909_ScreenShot2019-12-18at1_03_39PM.thumb.png.a95214cc015985cb9fb308e6cbe31a66.png

 

My depiction/player instructions:

SK - standard really, this looks good

FB - doing his job, supports attacks and can get involved going forward (dribble less, cross more often, aim centre, shoot less)

BDP - does his job well, brings the ball out and is composed

CB - going good

WB - Doing pretty good (cross more often, cross from byline, aim near post)

DM - doing good, breaks up the play and gives it to APs

APs - This is the 'KDB' role if you will. Tielemans has been great here and he even sends some great crosses from deep from the half space like KDB. (stay wider to help him go into the half spaces)

APa - This is the David Silva role who I want to also play in the half spaces but slightly more advanced. Maddison is doing great here and I have Cuisance as a backup who has the switches flank trait which I love.  (get further forward to get him into the box to help the CF and stay wider). 

W - I have 'Get further forward' to get him forward without having to make him an attack duty where he is even more selfish.  + (cross byline, aim front post, shoot less often)

IW - Recently put him on attack to get him on the end of a cross from the right side. (Cross more often, aim centre)

CF - Before anyone tells me off for making Vardy a CF, he actually has decent attributes for it. I also need someone who is good off the ball and quick so he can make good movement in the box to meet a cross. However, its just not working enough. Iheanacho is also a fully training CF but not much luck with him either bar him better in the build up phase. 

You'd of noticed I put aimed crosses for my wide players. This is just to make it more varied and I thought having near post or centre would restrict them from floating it to the far post.

 

Pretty much I need help with this tactic in the following things:

- I am not seeing anywhere near as much wide play as I should. Exploiting the flanks has not resulted in any major difference I could see. It also means we a playing wide to early I think. I want to build up in the middle then in the final third play exploit the flanks. I have analysed matches and found that I am making 10ish successful crosses a game but they are not resulting in chances! Also I thought that maybe the playermaker who naturally pulling the ball towards them more so maybe switch to mezzala's? I did it in one game but not much luck. Maybe just the APa to a Mezz.? 

- Attacks still just go over the top of the centre backs for the on running Vardy and Iheanacho from a ball deep in central midfield. I understand thats what these strikers are good at and I may need a new CF. However, Iheancho does not have PMM to make him aggressively run in behind like Vardy has. Also, with this current patch Vardy will miss 5 1vs1 a game... 

- The press isn't efficient and teams manage to always send it long, thankfully for me Schmeichel loves a 1vs1. I am thinking it could be because my players are to wide? I have played around with going much higher LOE and DL but looks worse.

Has anyone managed to get a team to cross efficiently? My possession stats are still high in most the games so I dont think me trying to cross the ball is making me loss possession an overly lot. 

Sorry for the big messy write up, probably a bit too much thinking out loud has gone into this! Any help would be much appreciated as I slowly giving up here!

 

Cheers

 

 

Edited by Het2

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Take this with a pinch of salt, as I've really struggled with this game, but part of the problem might be the two APs in central midfield. Though one is APs and the other APa, they will mainly do the same thing--they'll both look for the ball, and others will look to pass to them. This could mean that 1) your midfield structure is compromised, and 2) players aren't utilising the wings as much. One playmaker might be better.

Sadly, I'm not sure what to suggest with long balls, and the useless one-on-ones. They really do seem broken in this game.

In respect of the high press, you might be able to achieve that with fewer instructions. It makes logical sense to have a high line, LOE, counter press and urgent pressing, but if the pressing is that extreme, you're probably leaving so many gaps in your team shape that the press is really easy to break. As a result, far from getting the ball back high, you make it really easy to counter. It might be an idea to try fewer instructions. Though the press wouldn't be as frantic, it could mean that the opponent struggles to break the press with easy passes, and you end up winning the ball higher as a result. When I can bring myself to start the game again, I might try with only 'counter press' and 'tighter marking' and see how that goes.

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48 minutes ago, ryandormer said:

Take this with a pinch of salt, as I've really struggled with this game, but part of the problem might be the two APs in central midfield. Though one is APs and the other APa, they will mainly do the same thing--they'll both look for the ball, and others will look to pass to them. This could mean that 1) your midfield structure is compromised, and 2) players aren't utilising the wings as much. One playmaker might be better.

Sadly, I'm not sure what to suggest with long balls, and the useless one-on-ones. They really do seem broken in this game.

In respect of the high press, you might be able to achieve that with fewer instructions. It makes logical sense to have a high line, LOE, counter press and urgent pressing, but if the pressing is that extreme, you're probably leaving so many gaps in your team shape that the press is really easy to break. As a result, far from getting the ball back high, you make it really easy to counter. It might be an idea to try fewer instructions. Though the press wouldn't be as frantic, it could mean that the opponent struggles to break the press with easy passes, and you end up winning the ball higher as a result. When I can bring myself to start the game again, I might try with only 'counter press' and 'tighter marking' and see how that goes.

Cheers mate, some definitely good points in there. I think one AP may be the best moving forward as you say, with two AP's that is a lot of passes being forced centrally. Might try run an attack Mezz for a few games! 

Yeah I have never been a fan of too many instructions, I feel this year things were just pilled on to try solve something. Good idea of maybe stripping it back. 

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8 hours ago, Het2 said:

Pretty much I need help with this tactic in the following things:

- I am not seeing anywhere near as much wide play as I should. Exploiting the flanks has not resulted in any major difference I could see. It also means we a playing wide to early I think. I want to build up in the middle then in the final third play exploit the flanks. I have analysed matches and found that I am making 10ish successful crosses a game but they are not resulting in chances! Also I thought that maybe the playermaker who naturally pulling the ball towards them more so maybe switch to mezzala's? I did it in one game but not much luck. Maybe just the APa to a Mezz.? 

- Attacks still just go over the top of the centre backs for the on running Vardy and Iheanacho from a ball deep in central midfield. I understand thats what these strikers are good at and I may need a new CF. However, Iheancho does not have PMM to make him aggressively run in behind like Vardy has. Also, with this current patch Vardy will miss 5 1vs1 a game... 

- The press isn't efficient and teams manage to always send it long, thankfully for me Schmeichel loves a 1vs1. I am thinking it could be because my players are to wide? I have played around with going much higher LOE and DL but looks worse.

Has anyone managed to get a team to cross efficiently? My possession stats are still high in most the games so I dont think me trying to cross the ball is making me loss possession an overly lot. 

Sorry for the big messy write up, probably a bit too much thinking out loud has gone into this! Any help would be much appreciated as I slowly giving up here!

 

Cheers

1) You have two playmakers in central midfield that attract play, you don't need two of the same role, but that will affect your wide play

2) Playmakers & BPD's like to play risky passes ie these balls over the top into space 

3) That's just a ME thing at the moment, but see if a particular player/role is pumping the balls over your D-line, tight mark & /or close them down. In fact you can see the AI roles in the formation screen now so you can spot any Take More Risk roles  

4) Who do you want to be on the end of the crosses? I don't see Vardy as ball-to-head type player. Madison & Barnes? Are they going to beat central defenders in the air? Maybe try low or whipped crosses

You have two Attack duties over on your left side, if this is an intentional overload or something then cool I guess but I'd have the right sided CM on Attack for balance so he isn't operating to close to the IW-A, with your W-S on the right, that's were the central space will be then there's the defensive phase with attack duties tracking back less urgently 

Sorry this is a bit rushed, busy week & all :D  

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32 minutes ago, Het2 said:

Cheers mate, some definitely good points in there. I think one AP may be the best moving forward as you say, with two AP's that is a lot of passes being forced centrally. Might try run an attack Mezz for a few games! 

Yeah I have never been a fan of too many instructions, I feel this year things were just pilled on to try solve something. Good idea of maybe stripping it back. 

I'm not sure a Mezzala is the role you'll want. With Vardy as a CF he'll drift wide, the Mezzela will drift wide with no one attacking from deep 

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Agree with Johnny to some degree.

1. the 2 playmakers always want the ball, what i've noticed is Support is standing around available for the ball to then lay it off (I've had a better use of dlp-s than AP-S in recent years dunno why but the playmaker roles are ishy to me right now). Attacking AP drives the ball from deep so they'll need good dribbling from deep, maddison is good for that but you want him further up which he will do just less often than his original. Suggestion: Go dlp-s/ap-s and put maddison as a mezzala OR tielemans as BBM and maddison as AP-A/Mezz-S/A.

2. Striker roles are meehhhh to atm but the best type for vardy is a pressing forward or AF. When you have a high LOE the defence is behind them so they "expect it" sometimes hence he rarely gets beyond unless it goes over the top. Drop the LOE to standard and see if it works. Try a few games for each or against lesser oppositions/home games and see if it works. Stndard LOE forces their defence to come out or it leaves them be and yous run at them, which the AI teams don't usually want. 

3. ME downsides are long balls and crossing for cut backs atm from wide players. You can't stop the long balls really, people tried going super defensive and still works. as for corssing people are finidng it hard cause their wide players are too "selfish" and just shoot from wider angles (even if its in the box) majority of the time. Crossing works decently for WB/FB's though so it shouldnt be too bad.

4. With the LOE thing I said at 2, don't leave it the same for every game, tweak it against teams, adapt to them if things aren't working out. Check the stats, the shots, key passes, where these passes are going etc. Ignore the CCC or Half chances are they are somewhat different than the real meaning. This can help with your press as well as they press in a compact shape not allowing the ball to play through them leaving the players to run at you (not great against good teams) or long ball it which your defence and DM can sort out most of the time. 

5. I'd take over lap off, if you want more from your wide players then overlapping will generally happen with WB-S BUT with overlapp on the wide players generally hold up the ball to then pass it. 

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Although, there are no set rules, I'll agree with everyone's advice to you. Just wanted to add, that too many instructions just confuse and don't help when you're to make tweaks. Start with the basic instructions for how you want to play. People have used due playmakers in the CM/together role i.e, the legendary Ozil Barca tactic and it has worked, plus still works(different ME, i know, but no massive effect to be overly concerned). Balance your tactic, operate a split press and tweak when you play sides of equal and less quality.

Hope it is helpful.

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15 hours ago, Het2 said:

2089047909_ScreenShot2019-12-18at1_03_39PM.thumb.png.a95214cc015985cb9fb308e6cbe31a66.png

Apart from all deficiencies of your tactic, do you really think Leicester is good enough to handle such an aggressive and extremely risky tactical setup successfully (I don't say they are not a good team, but are they that good?)

Btw, this tactic very much runs counter to the possession football you said you want to play: 

15 hours ago, Het2 said:

I want to play a possession style football

Possession football is not only about the short passing, PoD and WBiB instructions. Without a proper setup of roles and duties, team instructions mean little.

Btw, using offside trap when your CBs are on different duties is never a good idea.

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22 hours ago, Johnny Ace said:

1) You have two playmakers in central midfield that attract play, you don't need two of the same role, but that will affect your wide play

2) Playmakers & BPD's like to play risky passes ie these balls over the top into space 

3) That's just a ME thing at the moment, but see if a particular player/role is pumping the balls over your D-line, tight mark & /or close them down. In fact you can see the AI roles in the formation screen now so you can spot any Take More Risk roles  

4) Who do you want to be on the end of the crosses? I don't see Vardy as ball-to-head type player. Madison & Barnes? Are they going to beat central defenders in the air? Maybe try low or whipped crosses

You have two Attack duties over on your left side, if this is an intentional overload or something then cool I guess but I'd have the right sided CM on Attack for balance so he isn't operating to close to the IW-A, with your W-S on the right, that's were the central space will be then there's the defensive phase with attack duties tracking back less urgently 

Sorry this is a bit rushed, busy week & all :D  

Thanks for the reply Johnny!

1) Yeah definitely something I might look into. I could even have a standard CM attack that will get into the box. A playmaker type player here still but just without hte hardcode of attracting the ball

2) But surely that means you don't just remove them. They should go for the long ball every time. Plenty of possession tactics involve playmakers/BPD. All my attacks seam to be centralised from a long through ball

3) Yeah frustrating as anything! Glad it seems to be affecting everyone though and not just me haha, peace of mind. Didn't know that about AI roles so thanks

4) Yeah the idea is they are low crosses, like driven low balls or cut backs from the by line. I have ticked low crosses but they still seem to float it in on occasion. However im sure a well positioned whipped ball would work well too. Think Liverpool a cross from TAA to the centre/ far post for a Firmino or Mane. Or a City cross from deep by KDB to Aguero or Sterling.

Regarding the double attack duty I don't usually do that, I just wanted a wide player on attack and the winger on attack makes him even more selfish. I had started with both the wide players on support, but maybe I'll look at dropping the left winger back to it.  However, the flanks were not even getting affected defensively. The AI's long through balls are just going straight down the middle!

Anyway, cheers for the help. Some good things for me to try

Edited by Het2

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21 hours ago, BigV said:

Agree with Johnny to some degree.

1. the 2 playmakers always want the ball, what i've noticed is Support is standing around available for the ball to then lay it off (I've had a better use of dlp-s than AP-S in recent years dunno why but the playmaker roles are ishy to me right now). Attacking AP drives the ball from deep so they'll need good dribbling from deep, maddison is good for that but you want him further up which he will do just less often than his original. Suggestion: Go dlp-s/ap-s and put maddison as a mezzala OR tielemans as BBM and maddison as AP-A/Mezz-S/A.

2. Striker roles are meehhhh to atm but the best type for vardy is a pressing forward or AF. When you have a high LOE the defence is behind them so they "expect it" sometimes hence he rarely gets beyond unless it goes over the top. Drop the LOE to standard and see if it works. Try a few games for each or against lesser oppositions/home games and see if it works. Stndard LOE forces their defence to come out or it leaves them be and yous run at them, which the AI teams don't usually want. 

3. ME downsides are long balls and crossing for cut backs atm from wide players. You can't stop the long balls really, people tried going super defensive and still works. as for corssing people are finidng it hard cause their wide players are too "selfish" and just shoot from wider angles (even if its in the box) majority of the time. Crossing works decently for WB/FB's though so it shouldnt be too bad.

4. With the LOE thing I said at 2, don't leave it the same for every game, tweak it against teams, adapt to them if things aren't working out. Check the stats, the shots, key passes, where these passes are going etc. Ignore the CCC or Half chances are they are somewhat different than the real meaning. This can help with your press as well as they press in a compact shape not allowing the ball to play through them leaving the players to run at you (not great against good teams) or long ball it which your defence and DM can sort out most of the time. 

5. I'd take over lap off, if you want more from your wide players then overlapping will generally happen with WB-S BUT with overlapp on the wide players generally hold up the ball to then pass it. 

Cheers BigV, the help is much appreciated!

1) Yeah good idea for a dlp, Tielemans is naturally a DLP too. Unsure why I have not tried that, but I think in my previous editions of this tactic on earlier FMs DLP didn't work. But will give that ago with Maddo as a Mezz/AP. 

2) Yeah I think an AF is what ideally I am after, thats what I have used previous FMs. I think one wiht 'comes deep to get ball' would be ideal. Thats what Jesus and Aguero have and are both AFs. But good idea here with the LOE, will try play around with it. The only thing here is I imagined to be dominant and playing the game essentially in the oppositions half against weaker oppositions. But will give it a try!

3) Yeah this has been the biggest killer, which has juts ruined FM20 so far for me. Every year I get something of the along the likes of this tactic to work with nice cut backs and low crosses but I guess im fighting the engine here. Maybe wait for an update/patch ?? Yeah the WB has actually been decent with the crosses. 

4) Cheers will take that on board. Will have some playing around to do this weekend!

5) Yeah just been reading that it doesn't make much of a difference bar makes the wide attacker hold the ball up. Will untick that for sure

Edited by Het2

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15 hours ago, denen123 said:

Just wanted to add, that too many instructions just confuse and don't help when you're to make tweaks. Start with the basic instructions for how you want to play.

Balance your tactic, operate a split press and tweak when you play sides of equal and less quality.

Yeah was just thinking I may have to rip the tactic up and start from bare, adding small elements as I see fit.

Just to clarify, what do you mean by a split press in FM? 

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15 hours ago, Experienced Defender said:

1) Btw, this tactic very much runs counter to the possession football you said you want to play: 

2) Btw, using offside trap when your CBs are on different duties is never a good idea.

1) And what makes you say that? 

2) Yeah thats an error on my part! Been switching to a cover and removing the OT mid during the games as I have heard that helps. When I took a screenshot for the sake of posting it here I changed it to cover to show thats what I was doing. Whoops

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Yeah, 

2 hours ago, Het2 said:

1) Yeah definitely something I might look into. I could even have a standard CM attack that will get into the box. A playmaker type player here still but just without hte hardcode of attracting the ball

2) But surely that means you don't just remove them. They should go for the long ball every time. Plenty of possession tactics involve playmakers/BPD. All my attacks seam to be centralised from a long through ball

Yeah, you can use the generic CM roles & use Player Instructions to make them play like a Playmaker without the "ball magnet" effect. Even a CD can act like a BPD  (dribble more, more risky passes, more direct?) & tone them down as you wish

I think what ED is talking about regarding roles is, you have to think about what actions lose you the ball in the first place, dribbles, misplaced (risky) passes & crosses. Roles like Winger, IW, WB all like to run on the ball & cross. 3 of the roles play risky passes so I think he just means reworking those a little   

He's right on the aggression of the tactic too :thup:

   

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7 hours ago, Het2 said:
22 hours ago, Experienced Defender said:

1) Btw, this tactic very much runs counter to the possession football you said you want to play: 

1) And what makes you say that? 

Primarily your setup of roles and duties:

- AP on attack duty is more suited to fast attacking and/or counter-attacking styles than possession-based ones

- Too many attack duties in close vicinity (APat in MCL, IWat in AML and CFat for the lone striker). While possession tactics do require a couple of attack duties, they need to be more evenly distributed

Secondarily the instructions such as:

- pass into space (clearly not a possession-friendly instruction)

- wider attacking width (possession styles work better when the distance between your players is not too big)

There are a couple more things that are not necessarily in opposition to possession football, but they basically are not quite possession-friendly: the winger role and be more expressive. However, both can be used in more progressive versions of possession football (in order to add a different dimension to your attacking play).

 

 

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16 hours ago, Het2 said:

Yeah was just thinking I may have to rip the tactic up and start from bare, adding small elements as I see fit.

Just to clarify, what do you mean by a split press in FM? 

My little understanding of it( split press): Making use of 3 to 4 players in your forward plus defensive areas to "close down" more while keeping the general pressing intensity on the default or even less. It'll prevent your center halves from behaving crazy. 

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3 minutes ago, denen123 said:

Making use of 3 to 4 players in your forward plus defensive areas to "close down"

Only advanced players, not those in defensive areas.

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2 minutes ago, Experienced Defender said:

Only advanced players, not those in defensive areas.

I don't treat it as a fixed rule cause I've watched a couple of Rahidi's videos where he's also added the instruction to a RDM( his 4231 deep 2DM) or even to CM in his Liquid

I've used the it a 4231 wide for a DLPd too. It really depends on how you determine balance from observing games.

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21 minutes ago, denen123 said:

I don't treat it as a fixed rule cause I've watched a couple of Rahidi's videos where he's also added the instruction to a RDM( his 4231 deep 2DM) or even to CM in his Liquid

CM is not in defensive area. RDM is though (if by RDM you mean right DM). 

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Just now, Experienced Defender said:

CM is not in defensive area. RDM is though (if by RDM you mean right DM). 

Yeah.

Right DM.

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Thanks denen123 and EP. Will try this split block. I know in the past I have kind of done the opposite when I have had higher pressing whilst have my CBs press less which worked well. Made them not get pulled out of position.

Regarding pass into space. That is another stupid mistake from me, had this one for legit one game to see if it changed anything or helped with passing to the flanks. Just happens to be in the screenshot tot. I really need to pay more attention haha.

Also when I said possession football, I guess I kind of just chucked that out there. Meant I kind of want to dominate play, have more of the ball but by no means keep the ball for long stretches of play without doing anything - if that isn't too much of a contradiction haha. More like win the ball back and pass with meaning and purpose using short passes rather than slowly passing it around patiently waiting with a lower tempo. But at the same times not rushing the ball forward as if you are counter attacking, so I guess just a middle ground...

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13 hours ago, Het2 said:

when I said possession football, I guess I kind of just chucked that out there. Meant I kind of want to dominate play, have more of the ball but by no means keep the ball for long stretches of play without doing anything - if that isn't too much of a contradiction haha. More like win the ball back and pass with meaning and purpose using short passes rather than slowly passing it around patiently waiting with a lower tempo. But at the same times not rushing the ball forward as if you are counter attacking, so I guess just a middle ground

That's what I call the progressive possession style (as opposed to sterile possession football). It combines possession with elements of more adventurous attacking styles.

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1 hour ago, Experienced Defender said:

That's what I call the progressive possession style (as opposed to sterile possession football). It combines possession with elements of more adventurous attacking styles.

Built on that, I think you could up the tempo in games where you think it is too sterile. Unsettles, personally I find possession stuff based on quick tempo more useful simply because if you're the better team you're likely to outplay anyway on most given occassions if everything is fine.

Not to sure how the tempo thing works in general though, always felt that slower tempo does mean more movement but the game is to lethargic yet the ME decides it's quick passing around players. Tika taka for example played under a high tempo IRL (i think) but the game manages better on lower tempo but looks like quick passing and movement play. 

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1 hour ago, BigV said:

Built on that, I think you could up the tempo in games where you think it is too sterile. Unsettles, personally I find possession stuff based on quick tempo more useful simply because if you're the better team you're likely to outplay anyway on most given occassions if everything is fine

Yes. you can up the tempo a bit, or you can use the Be more expressive TI. Anything that can break the monotony :brock:

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1 hour ago, BigV said:

Not to sure how the tempo thing works in general though, always felt that slower tempo does mean more movement but the game is to lethargic yet the ME decides it's quick passing around players. Tika taka for example played under a high tempo IRL (i think) but the game manages better on lower tempo but looks like quick passing and movement play

Here you always have to keep the mentality factor in mind. 

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6 hours ago, Experienced Defender said:

Here you always have to keep the mentality factor in mind. 

So if you're positive and playing lower tempo it'd be similar to playing cautious and high tempo?

Point im making is the higher in mentality you go it's more useful to pick lower tempo's as the mentality suggests the neutral speed where as the lower mentality, you'd expect to play higher to counter act the balance? 

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15 minutes ago, BigV said:

So if you're positive and playing lower tempo it'd be similar to playing cautious and high tempo?

To some degree yes, but that would be a bit of an oversimplification. Because the mentality affects a lot more than just the tempo. In fact, it affects everything (including even the creative freedom and players' movement). 

 

19 minutes ago, BigV said:

Point im making is the higher in mentality you go it's more useful to pick lower tempo's as the mentality suggests the neutral speed where as the lower mentality, you'd expect to play higher to counter act the balance?

Yes, I understand your point, but there are a number of additional factors that need to be taken into account. For example, passing style will also affect the tempo, even in cases when that's not explicitly displayed in the tactical creator screen. 

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