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Zanman777

The Player Roles & Duties Map

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2 hours ago, Zanman777 said:

Ok. First off, I'm going to asssume you have Microsoft Office in your computer (inlcuding Excel).

Which Football Manager do you play? 2018 or 2020? 

Download the right file for your FM.

Open it.

image.thumb.png.7403af4cc931336ce41d2ca7fc2fc688.png

The only sheet that matters to you is the Tactics sheet (the first one). Forget everything else!

 

image.thumb.png.a9af70d2b43baa21bec61ef5d9bf314e.png

in that sheet, the only cells you change are the "Position" and the "Role - Duty" columns. The others are only for you to read data from.

 

First, select a slot's Position.

image.png.b44fa408e464dde97f12d8102dbe20d2.png

An arrow pointing down will show up. Click it.

 

image.png.d9fd0e074ae9913b531df620894e4c77.png

There will ve a list of positions for you to choose from. Pick one.

 

AFTER you have picked a position for tht slot, do the same thing on the Role - Duty column: click the cell; then click the arrow button that shows up next to it:

image.png.e9493c432000bb1f95b709d84881e708.png

Pick a role - duty from that list.

This order is important! The available roles duties depend on the position on that slot!

Repeat for all 10 positions of the tactic you're designing.

After you've picked all 10 positions + roles duties, the total scores will show at the bottom.

image.thumb.png.d071423c44d0b2e8b8dc401e82c9f8da.png

 

And that's it.

 

I hope that makes it clearer

That's great, thanks.

Its a very unintuitive approach to tactics building, for me at least, but I'll give it a go. I'm always happy to try different approaches to the game.

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19 minutes ago, Atarin said:

That's great, thanks.

Its a very unintuitive approach to tactics building, for me at least, but I'll give it a go. I'm always happy to try different approaches to the game.

Would you prefer it another way? I can try a different approach on the Excel file... Not sure how yet, but if you got suggestions I'm open to new ideas  

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I think it'd maybe be a bit more understandable if it was explained in simple steps, like for example...

Step 1: Assess your squad to decide which styles your players are suited to by using the list of suggested attributes. (in your version you choose a style and then assess your squad, which seems the wrong way round to me).

Step 2: Set your Mentality to accomplish your Core style.

Step 3: Set your pressing style to accomplish your Defensive style.

Step 4: Set your passing Directness to accomplish your Attacking style.

Step 5: Choose the formation that suits your Style of Play.

Step 6: This is where I get a bit lost. The flow charts are a little hard to follow (maybe not for everyone but certainly for me as I have mild dyslexia). Maybe a text based list. I tend to use Windows Notepad and Windows Calculator to keep things simple when I'm assessing my squad.

So maybe think about how you get from Step 5 to Step 6 and beyond.

 

When I was going through your flow charts I wasn't sure what connection it had to the steps before. What target scores should I be aiming for? Do the target scores change if you change style? It wasn't very clear. So I think that's something that needs to be clearer.

Again, not everyone will have the problems understanding that I have but I definitely found it a little hard to follow.

Still, really appreciate the work you've put in.

I think we're all looking for that holy grail that is a structure, a system that we can use in all tactical scenarios. Just plug your situation into the tactics machine and let it print out the perfect strategy. I'm doubtful that such a thing exists but I'm definitely intrigued.

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What exactly is the aim of this? To make a balanced tactic? If so, the excel sheet fails to take the perhaps most important aspect of all into account; relative positions of your players.

Example 1: you have a "penetrating" player and a "supporting" player trying to occupy the same space, the penetrating player will generally stay back (since the space is already occupied) - and thus should get a low penetration score.
Example 2: you have two attack duties on one flank and two defend duties on the other flank. This would be an unbalanced tactic. It could (perhaps) work, but it is most likely a risky setup, still the "score" in the excel sheet would not reflect this.

These sorts of issues should be reflected in the score if it is to help us create something that is balanced, right?

Edited by FabianJonsson

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8 minutes ago, FabianJonsson said:

What exactly is the aim of this? To make a balanced tactic? If so, the excel sheet fails to take the perhaps most important aspect of all into account; relative positions of your players.

Example 1: you have a "penetrating" player and a "supporting" player trying to occupy the same space, the penetrating player will generally stay back (since the space is already occupied) - and thus should get a low penetration score.
Example 2: you have two attack duties on one flank and two defend duties on the other flank. This would be an unbalanced tactic. It could (perhaps) work, but it is most likely a risky setup, still the "score" in the excel sheet would not reflect this.

These sorts of issues should be reflected in the score if it is to help us create something that is balanced, right?

You're right, although the guide does point out to the reader that every area of the pitch needs to have a balance of penetration, solidity and support, its not included in the method.

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7 minutes ago, Atarin said:

You're right, although the guide does point out to the reader that every area of the pitch needs to have a balance of penetration, solidity and support, its not included in the method.

Ok, good point. 

I still believe that understanding the reasoning behind the rules of thumb and trying to keep them in mind when you create a tactic through trial and error, is better than trying to create a formalized process based on the rules of thumb. But to each his own. :)

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31 minutes ago, FabianJonsson said:

What exactly is the aim of this? To make a balanced tactic? If so, the excel sheet fails to take the perhaps most important aspect of all into account; relative positions of your players.

Example 1: you have a "penetrating" player and a "supporting" player trying to occupy the same space, the penetrating player will generally stay back (since the space is already occupied) - and thus should get a low penetration score.
Example 2: you have two attack duties on one flank and two defend duties on the other flank. This would be an unbalanced tactic. It could (perhaps) work, but it is most likely a risky setup, still the "score" in the excel sheet would not reflect this.

These sorts of issues should be reflected in the score if it is to help us create something that is balanced, right?

For your example on flanks.

I think it's a base for start to work on your tactic, as a preset tactics in the game.

Screenshot_20191218-145214__01.jpg

Edited by Bot Makel

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When i try to use the calculator I select a position from the drop down menu but when I try to select a role and duty the drop down list just has #REF!

Any suggestions.

Edited by Atarin

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4 minutes ago, Atarin said:

When i try to use the calculator I select a position from the drop down menu but when I try to select a role and duty the drop down list just has #REF!

Any suggestions.

Which Office do you have? Which version?

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3 minutes ago, Atarin said:

Apache Openoffice 4.1.5

Then I'll need to upload an OpenOffice version for you :P Give me some time, I can't at the moment

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2 minutes ago, Zanman777 said:

Then I'll need to upload an OpenOffice version for you :P Give me some time, I can't at the moment

No rush mate.

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1 hour ago, Atarin said:

I think it'd maybe be a bit more understandable if it was explained in simple steps, like for example...

Step 1: Assess your squad to decide which styles your players are suited to by using the list of suggested attributes. (in your version you choose a style and then assess your squad, which seems the wrong way round to me).

Step 2: Set your Mentality to accomplish your Core style.

Step 3: Set your pressing style to accomplish your Defensive style.

Step 4: Set your passing Directness to accomplish your Attacking style.

Step 5: Choose the formation that suits your Style of Play.

Step 6: This is where I get a bit lost. The flow charts are a little hard to follow (maybe not for everyone but certainly for me as I have mild dyslexia). Maybe a text based list. I tend to use Windows Notepad and Windows Calculator to keep things simple when I'm assessing my squad.

So maybe think about how you get from Step 5 to Step 6 and beyond.

 

When I was going through your flow charts I wasn't sure what connection it had to the steps before. What target scores should I be aiming for? Do the target scores change if you change style? It wasn't very clear. So I think that's something that needs to be clearer.

Again, not everyone will have the problems understanding that I have but I definitely found it a little hard to follow.

Still, really appreciate the work you've put in.

I think we're all looking for that holy grail that is a structure, a system that we can use in all tactical scenarios. Just plug your situation into the tactics machine and let it print out the perfect strategy. I'm doubtful that such a thing exists but I'm definitely intrigued.

The purpose of this post isn't to analyze your squad per se. It's trying to focus on helping you have a birdseye view on roles, duties and how they relate to the rest of the elements of tactics. You will still need to analyze your squad before using the stuff from this post. You can check this post for help on analyzing your squad and players. 

After analyzing your squad, you can draw conclusions about your squad and use these conclusions to make tactical decisions. The guide I included helps you on that, for example here...

image.thumb.png.0a5ceef984394284106667cf1a818512.png

So yes, in this particular thread I'm assuming you've analyzed your squad already. The maps and spreadsheets on this thread are to

  • help you build on the core style, defensive style and attacking style and pick correct roles and duties for those styles (the maps)
  • help you "proof read" the roles & duties you're about to pick (the spreadsheets, via calculation of penetration, solidity and support scores)

 

"What target scores should I be aiming for? Do the target scores change if you change style?"

  • The minimum scores are written at the top right corner of each map. :P 
  • The change of style does not change the minimum score (except for FM 2020, where direct plays need at least 11 support points and short plays need 13).

 

To feel less lost, I suggest this:

1) Read the Guide I included, top to bottom. Make sure you understand the logic

2) Analyze your squad, based on your own methods and/or this method

3) Choose which styles and formation you're going to use

4) Check the maps organisation and make sure you understand the logic of those

5) Use the maps to pick the right roles & duties for the styles you decided upon

6) "Proofread" those roles & duties on the excel spreadsheet, to check you have enough penetration, solidity and support on the attacking phase

 

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2 hours ago, FabianJonsson said:

What exactly is the aim of this? To make a balanced tactic? If so, the excel sheet fails to take the perhaps most important aspect of all into account; relative positions of your players.

Example 1: you have a "penetrating" player and a "supporting" player trying to occupy the same space, the penetrating player will generally stay back (since the space is already occupied) - and thus should get a low penetration score.
Example 2: you have two attack duties on one flank and two defend duties on the other flank. This would be an unbalanced tactic. It could (perhaps) work, but it is most likely a risky setup, still the "score" in the excel sheet would not reflect this.

These sorts of issues should be reflected in the score if it is to help us create something that is balanced, right?

As @Bot Makel has mentioned, the roles map points out on its rules of thumb some principles you should "respect" - having at least one player take care of each of the main tasks of each area of the field. 

Don't take the Excel file blindly. It's void without the rest. It't sjust a specific tool to help you balance the penetration, solidity and support during the attacking phase of play. It takes zero consideration about everything else.

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23 minutes ago, Southern Buddie said:

There are no wide forward options available when playing fluid, in the flanks map...

You're right!... Huh... Looks like Guide to Football Manager never thought about that...

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The next step could be for every instruction (team and individual) associate the right player attributes.

Example: more risky passes - player attributes: good creativity ( anticipation, decisions, flair, teamwork, vision); good passing ability (passing, technique)

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6 hours ago, Bot Makel said:

The next step could be for every instruction (team and individual) associate the right player attributes.

Example: more risky passes - player attributes: good creativity ( anticipation, decisions, flair, teamwork, vision); good passing ability (passing, technique)

You mean a map or a calculator for that?

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Great topic and post. I feel like too many people want to run before they can walk. Reading what Cleon and Bustthenet do is great but sometimes too advanced for people just starting off.

They should use this topic first, watch games, see the patterns and then get into more advanced micro management. Hope this gets pinned somewhere.

Edited by Miek

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1 minute ago, Miek said:

Great topic and post. I feel like too many people want to run before they can walk. Reading what Cleon and Bustthenet do is great but sometimes too advanced for people just starting off.

They should use this topic first, watch games, see the patterns and then get into more advanced micro management. Hope this gets pinned somewhere.

Cleon is a legend! To be totally honest, there are some amazing members on here who put so much time and effort into their posts. I can see this thread being another that i refer back to in the future.

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14 minutes ago, EnigMattic1 said:

Cleon is a legend! To be totally honest, there are some amazing members on here who put so much time and effort into their posts. I can see this thread being another that i refer back to in the future.

He is, and he taught me the most about this game. Hope this post isn't perceived as me bringing him down. He's an absolute legend.

 

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1 minute ago, Miek said:

He is, and he taught me the most about this game. Hope this post isn't perceived as me bringing him down. He's an absolute legend.

 

It wasn't. He hasn't done a lot lately though has he? He was very 'in depth'. I see similarities in this thread too.

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Choosing between structured and fluid, I dont understand what the guide means by "mixture of low and high average attributes" could you throw more light on it

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17 hours ago, Brackets95 said:

Choosing between structured and fluid, I dont understand what the guide means by "mixture of low and high average attributes" could you throw more light on it

Each player of yours can be very good at certain tasks (eg. defending, or attacking, or passing...), and very bad at other tasks. For example, a centre  forward with 18  finishing, 17 dribbling, 18 composure, 2 tackling, 3 positioning would better focus only on the tasks he's very good at (scoring goals, creating chances), and avoid doing the tasks he's terrible at (helping defence). He has a mixture of very low and very high attributes. So maybe a structured system is better for this player in particular - let him do what he does best only, and let other players focus on doing the rest.

 

Now imagine the same player has 12 finishing, 13 dribbling, 12 composure, 8 tackling, 9 positioning. He is, in a way, a jack of all trades. He wouldn't be terrible attacking nor defending. All his attributes are average. If the rest of the squad also has average attributes across the board, the whole team may be better playing in a fluid system - everybody helps doing every task, working more as a team.

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Good work. I've previously read the Guide to FM site and found some of it to very good but I could never work out to calculate the team penetration, solidity and support scores. You've made it very easy thank you.

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2 hours ago, oi_oi_ginger_roy said:

Sorry for the thick question but what does it mean by penetration/solidity/support and what number should we be aiming for?

Penetration, solidity and support are three terms used by Guide to FM to describe three aspects of the attacking phase yo ushould take care to keep balanced. 

In FM 2018, they should be at least 2.5, 4 and 4, respectively.

In FM 2020, they sould be at least 10, 16 and 12, respectively.

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24 minutes ago, Zanman777 said:

Penetration, solidity and support are three terms used by Guide to FM to describe three aspects of the attacking phase yo ushould take care to keep balanced. 

In FM 2018, they should be at least 2.5, 4 and 4, respectively.

In FM 2020, they sould be at least 10, 16 and 12, respectively.

Seriously? i'm lucky if i can get FM18's scores in FM20 

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4 minutes ago, EnigMattic1 said:

Seriously? i'm lucky if i can get FM18's scores in FM20 

Yeah, that's because I haven't given you guys the FM20 penetration, solidity and support values of the roles :p (yet) The ones on the files are for FM 2018 only, IIRC


I've been reading the whooooole "Guide to Football" site and taking notes, trying to wrap my head around the whole thing. That's why I've been more silent lately. But I'm not far from coming up with a breakthrough, hopefully :p

Edited by Zanman777

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Just now, Zanman777 said:

Yeah, that's because I haven't given you guys the FM20 penetration, solidity and support values of the roles :P (yet)
I've been reading the whooooole "Guide to Football" site and taking notes, trying to wrap my head around the whole thing. That's why I've been more silent lately. But I'm not far from coming up with a breakthrough, hopefully :P

That would be why then. I was suddenly thinking I was doing something drastically wrong.

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Hi Zanman77, be aware that website hasn't had an update since the 20th Jan 2019.  So the 'update for 2020" I assume means the year not the game version (unless the author was able to see 9ish months in the future!).

 

I still think debate needs to happen on the accuracy of some of the information on that website, but I guess that can happen after you complete more of the guide and then updates can be made as the community (hopefully) can discuss things more.

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26 minutes ago, Andros said:

Hi Zanman77, be aware that website hasn't had an update since the 20th Jan 2019.  So the 'update for 2020" I assume means the year not the game version (unless the author was able to see 9ish months in the future!).

 

I still think debate needs to happen on the accuracy of some of the information on that website, but I guess that can happen after you complete more of the guide and then updates can be made as the community (hopefully) can discuss things more.

Looking forward for your input, guys ^^ 

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UPDATE: included the focus level value for each role & duty on the immutable instructions map. If you use a more structured tactic, you should pick roles and duties with higher Focus level values, and vice versa. 

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On 22/12/2019 at 22:50, Andros said:

Hi Zanman77, be aware that website hasn't had an update since the 20th Jan 2019.  So the 'update for 2020" I assume means the year not the game version (unless the author was able to see 9ish months in the future!).

https://www.guidetofm.com/updates

image.thumb.png.5a751070e6d23d7efd03f1bc91f9d41b.png

There has been an update since, though ;)

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On 18/12/2019 at 17:16, Bot Makel said:

The next step could be for every instruction (team and individual) associate the right player attributes.

Example: more risky passes - player attributes: good creativity ( anticipation, decisions, flair, teamwork, vision); good passing ability (passing, technique)

UPDATE:  Added a map with the desirable attributes for each player instruction, according to Guide to FM.

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