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mike murphy

ia vs human players vs bad form

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Love the game, being playing this game for decades, the 19 version has some features in the game itself which I like to share and would love to read other player opinions, for example the sudden bad form, when you lose a match against a weak team and make an aggressive comment about how they played badly, your season ended, there's no way to make the team win again, I have made a lot of experiments, playing the same save game several times changing the after game chat, or trying to make other things, but same result, season over, I don't know if this happen to you guys, other thing that I have noticed is that when you are playing against IA and IA manages a smaller team than you, that team has more % of scrapping points of you than when they play against another bigger IA team, and I think this is due that the game itself has different rules than fast scores IA vs IA. I have played for example 3 games in a row where smaller teams scored against me 2-3 goals in last 5 minutes, 3 games in a row!!, however that never happen to others IA league challengers teams playing against small teams. When I saw those unrealistic events happen I reset the game, but that makes the game really frustrating. I have read lots of people trying to make an explanation and trying to rationalize what happens, saying, that's because the players lost confident etc.., guys, this is not real people with feelings, that's numbers in a computer, and the results of those number interactions don't obey to something rational, its the result of a programmer code, I really really love if there's some manual where we could understand what we should do or when to "shout" in the middle of the game, or when we have to substitute a player, If a player is super tired and in a real life game you substitute him for a similar level player, your team would improve, however in this game the substitution result is a Pandora box, and the result of that substitution will be a random result, sometimes I don't know if to change player or not, logic tells me to do that, however in hundreds of games I made that Logic and rational change and 3 minutes later, the smaller team scores in 90+5 minutes equalizing the score. I think all those things are what we want to see fixed in the 20 version.

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That's the Problem. If the AI of this game becomes too reactive/smart, it must be the AI playing by different rules, e.g. cheating. And SI have gotten a few hints and tipps on how to improve it throughout the years (some of which taken, some probably not...)

https://www.gamasutra.com/view/news/116071/Analysis_Game_AI__Our_Cheatin_Hearts.php
Spoiler, it's not. -> Tactical Forum. Any Knowledge you can gain there is a league above any AI in the game. So treat with cautious. I've personally stopped engaging with the tactical community overly for that reason; firstly, the added "challenge". Secondly, I don't think any manager in actual football has a decisive edge over any of his peers. They're roughly seeing level. If the AI were ever brought to a level that it would significantly challenge the tactical niche, and I'd like it to be ever improved myself, in particular ath the very top, these forums were a meltdown. Trust me on that one. 

It's surprising how many have played this and have yet to pick up that the AI doesn't care About how many shots it has, for a start. Quite oftenly it concedes the "shot battle" to the opposition, by choice. The AI only cares about the scorelines, that is the goals scored. It makes changes according to those. Unlike a tactically commited player, it cannot read a match and react to what was going on specifically. Still, any Player who isn't down a similar route already has a disadvantage over the AI at some point, and be it in a specific scenario, right there.

If you concede comebacks consistently, usually there is a structural flaw in your tactics. And mind, the game allows that kind of flaw, when as a "realistic simulation", it arguably shouldn't. "Real Managers" aren't consistently punished for deep structural flaws within their tactics that almost guarantee shipping goals whenever an opposition tries to get back into a game. All of the download communities are riddled with stuff like that, btw.

Edited by Svenc

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5 hours ago, mike murphy said:

when you lose a match against a weak team and make an aggressive comment about how they played badly

Then do not do that?

 

5 hours ago, mike murphy said:

I don't know if this happen to you guys, other thing that I have noticed is that when you are playing against IA and IA manages a smaller team than you, that team has more % of scrapping points of you than when they play against another bigger IA team, and I think this is due that the game itself has different rules than fast scores IA vs IA.

It is not a different rule. You are just not approaching games against weaker sides well. Worse than the AI does, that is for sure. 

5 hours ago, mike murphy said:

I have played for example 3 games in a row where smaller teams scored against me 2-3 goals in last 5 minutes, 3 games in a row!!, however that never happen to others IA league challengers teams playing against small teams.

The AI will become more attacking at the end of games when the score is close. Particularly if they are a smaller side playing most of the game defending, but going for the win at the end. I am very sorry, but you should be reacting to this if you have seen it happen multiple times. You know it is coming, so blindly persisting in what you do that leads to conceding 2 or 3 goals at the end of games is bad management. The AI does not suffer from this because it reacts properly. 

 

6 hours ago, mike murphy said:

I have read lots of people trying to make an explanation and trying to rationalize what happens, saying, that's because the players lost confident etc.., guys, this is not real people with feelings, that's numbers in a computer, and the results of those number interactions don't obey to something rational, its the result of a programmer code,

I... do not think you understand how computer codes work. If players are programmed to react to things that happen in matches or between, then they will react to it following the code that controls this. And it is absolute nonsense to suggest that players do not have feelings. Do you think moral is just something cosmetic? Do you think body language is there to give you something to look at? There is literally an icon that tells you a player is unhappy. Form is absolutely a thing. There is an attribute governing consistency, which is entirely related to it. So when people rationalise things in terms of player happiness, or confidence, or form, that is because they are in the game. They are part of the code. It is coded to be as realistic and rational as possible. I am not surprised you struggle, you do not have any idea how the game works. 

6 hours ago, mike murphy said:

or when we have to substitute a player, If a player is super tired and in a real life game you substitute him for a similar level player, your team would improve, however in this game the substitution result is a Pandora box, and the result of that substitution will be a random result, sometimes I don't know if to change player or not, logic tells me to do that, however in hundreds of games I made that Logic and rational change and 3 minutes later, the smaller team scores in 90+5 minutes equalizing the score.

This makes me think you simply do not understand football. A substitution always makes a side better? Teams never concede after making a substitution? Every sub comes on and wins a game for you? What on earth are you talking about? Substitutions are not a panacea. There are so, so many things that go into a substitution. I cannot even begin to fathom how to explain how to use substitutions to someone. It is so fundamental. Take of players on a yellow. Players who are injured. Who you want to avoid losing too much condition. Bring on a player who can do something different. A player who has something to prove. Take off a player who is getting into good positions but missing. Or making mistakes. Bring on a player who likes to dribble to run at a fullback on a yellow. I could go on and on. If you do not understand how to use substitutions you really need to learn this game. Properly. 

6 hours ago, mike murphy said:

I think all those things are what we want to see fixed in the 20 version.

This will never be "fixed", because it is not a problem in the game. It is a problem with how you play the game. If you are struggling to beat small sides, that is on you. I will acknowledge it is not always easy, because breaking down a defensive side is not always easy. You have to know what you are doing, at least a little. I can tell you that I have very little issue beating weaker sides. Which means anyone can do it. In fact, if the AI can do something, so can you. The game does not differentiate between AI and user. It treats everything the same. 

You seem to have a bigger problem though. From what I could read here, you simply do not adapt to what is happening. You are not changing when the AI is changing how it plays. You are not changing how you play when it is clearly not working (based on this you are not beating smaller sides). You already note the AI can do it. That means you also can. If something is not working, it is not suddenly going to start because you believe that is the correct thing to do. At some point everyone who plays this game has to suck it up and realise they need to learn how to play better. If you want advice on that, on what you may be doing wrong (and what you are doing right, not everything is a criticism), then myself and others will always be happy to help. Start a thread on the tactics forums, take some feedback. Ask questions. Read some of the threads. 

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No, who really don't understand the rules of a real football game is you, and yes, I have tried to switch to a defensive tactic or defense attitude + waste time when IA attacks but this should not be the way to win the match against a smaller team, sometimes this works and sometimes it doesn't , and the opposition scores anyway,  Brazil does not switch to defensive when they are 2-0 winning and suddenly Scotland or Iceland switch to an attacking formation and add an extra striker. Real game does not work that way.

The rules for IA(and i use this word but this is not a real IA) vs IA matches and Human vs IA matches are completely different, specifically those matches computed in seconds. For example, when you play a match, and you replay it with exactly the same tactic and same formation, the result should be basically the same, but it never happen this way again, you can lose a game 1-2 then replay it and win 5-0, so it is not a tactical issue. Now when IA vs IA plays in milliseconds, and you repeat it again, the score may not be exactly the same but the tendency is almost the same, not a 1-2 and then a 5-0. And this is a handicap.

When you talk about change tactics etc.. in real world change tactics should be ok, but not here, prove of that is the tactic forum where in almost every version of the game there is a Super Tactic where wins everything, and hundreds of threads to download them, do you know why? Just because rationalize a match does not work in this scenario, now I think you don't understand nothing if you think you win some matches because of study of the opponent, there's tactics which works and others not.

In the team chat after match, when you criticize the team I do it simple because is something completely logic, and this should not be so determinant to the future of the team in the league, the players are not 5 years old boys who get offended and go to cry with mama, I think you are one of the guys who like the rainbow color flag in the stands of the game or are happy when one of the players came out of the closet. This bad form problem is pandemic on this version of the game, dozens complaining about it.
 

What I think people want is, some guide of what to do in specific scenarios, the "Shout" fr example, because my interpretation of shout something may be different of the guy who programmed this, maybe I think if the player is Calm I should shout Show some passion, however the programmer code that the best approach was Push Forward, I don't know, what I mean is, I have been playing this game since the 95 version, and every new version adds interesting features which should be explained better instead of leaving the player trying to understand what to do, based on a personal cognitive matter.

Edited by mike murphy

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5 hours ago, mike murphy said:

For example, when you play a match, and you replay it with exactly the same tactic and same formation, the result should be basically the same, but it never happen this way again, you can lose a game 1-2 then replay it and win 5-0, so it is not a tactical issue


prove of that is the tactic forum where in almost every version of the game there is a Super Tactic where wins everything, and hundreds of threads to download them, do you know why? 

The one thing I agree with is that the game should streamline the tactical UI and explain itself better. Plus, the AI match management can be too extreme. Still if the result were exactly the same then that would be the sign of pre-determinsm, rather than a simulation of a (virtual) football match. That's not how Football works, so neither should the games. This is 90 minutes of kicking, but a couple seconds eventually settling the winner. Most competitive matches could have at some point gone completely either way, as the ratio of scoring attempts vs. what was is actually scored is ridiculously low. Football is a sports that is very random, in particular in isolated matches. Put up a tactic full of structural holes (which the game allows), and you further randomize results (and reloads) accross the shop. Now if you reloaded over dozens times andn didn't see a trend, you had a Point though. 

The reason there are "super tactics" is because both the ME as well as the AI has weakness every year, it's as simple as that. One of the more prominent andn easy to explain examples was how wide midfielders defended on FM17. They didn't shift inside to help the central guys (see link), so super tactics simply flooded the centre of the pitch and off flying they went. Exploit it all, which is a viable choice, and the game stops being like Football overly much. However, as These tactics are typically build around no football logics, they spring lots of seemingly random crap at the worst possible moments. Additionially, for as Long as no super tactician finds a way to field 30 outfield Players, there will always be visibly holes, which the AI on the occasion exploits itself. 

You've been playing to decades. It appears about time to learn how the game actually works (including its flaws), and I mean this as friendly advice. And as somebody combatting the "AI is cheating myth", as I want to see the AI of this game improving, at least the few elite managers. If it does, it will perform even better against you.

Edited by Svenc

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6 hours ago, mike murphy said:

The rules for IA(and i use this word but this is not a real IA) vs IA matches and Human vs IA matches are completely different, specifically those matches computed in seconds.

No, they're not different. FIrstly, the ME can't tell the difference between human and AI. Second, all matches are calculated in seconds.

 

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7 hours ago, HUNT3R said:

No, they're not different. FIrstly, the ME can't tell the difference between human and AI. Second, all matches are calculated in seconds.

Yes, they are different, the IAs matched are calculated on the premise of a % of probability of the bigger team beats the smallest, the prove of that is a tendency of the results if you play a specific IA vs IA match over and over, the results is the same, I'm not telling watching the game, just the milliseconds result pressing the continue button, if you watch the game then the story changes, you will have a more random result the same as happens when you play.

 

 

8 hours ago, Svenc said:

"AI is cheating myth", as I want to see the AI of this game improving,

Never used the word cheating, because this is not a real IA, this is just a super basic programming where the opposition when is losing is programmed to do *THIS* and if its winning is programmed to do *THAT*, period, it doesn't learn anything, and it never create their tactics, every IA manager has a preset of tactics that use, and that's all.  Another prove of that is you have dozens of factors which can ruin your progress in the game, ex. if you don't play X player, the player gets angry and the player go to public making a scandal now half of the team hates you by the way  you treat him, this kind of things can happen in the game to a human player, however this rule don't apply to any IA team, just take the homework and look team by team in your playable leagues and see if there is a team with those kinds of issues, never found any(and I play with 9 leagues simultaneously), just some random player angry for not playing, and don't be telling me because the IA has everything in order or it's doing the job well etc... This kind of things are not cheat, is just that there is some features that are available to the player and not programmed to the IA, if all IA's of the game had the possibility to do all the interactions of the human, the process calculation of the game should require a super computer to continue day by day, however the days runs fast, this is another example and another handicap which can result in a bad form.
 

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3 minutes ago, mike murphy said:

Yes, they are different, the IAs matched are calculated on the premise of a % of probability of the bigger team beats the smallest, the prove of that is a tendency of the results if you play a specific IA vs IA match over and over, the results is the same, I'm not telling watching the game, just the milliseconds result pressing the continue button, if you watch the game then the story changes, you will have a more random result the same as happens when you play.

That's even more wrong than the first quote. Whether you watch an AI v AI match or not, it's going to be calculated (assuming it's set to full detail) using the ME anyway. So no rules are different at all. In both scenarios, watching an AI v AI match or simming a full detail AI v AI match, the match is calculated in seconds. In the former, you just get to watch what was already calculated.

 

It's the same in a user match. 1 half is calculated in seconds. You are then watching the highlights of that (otherwise how would the game know what's a highlight and what not ;)) and any change, recalculates the rest of the half.

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11 minutes ago, mike murphy said:

Not referring to watch the highlights, The option to watch the game live.

I'm aware. The process is the same. The half is calculated and THEN you start watching.

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On 14/12/2019 at 02:25, mike murphy said:

but not here, prove of that is the tactic forum where in almost every version of the game there is a Super Tactic where wins everything, and hundreds of threads to download them, matter.

There is no super tactic that allows you to win everything.  Look at that. I took a "super tactic" and used it (FM18) at the same time (one save) for 12 clubs. A very aggressive tactic, based on attack and risk. And which, according to many, should have allowed me to "win absolutely everything". Result:

VJj2iF2.jpg

5N8AVEA.jpg

It should have been for my "teams" to rank in the 1st, 2nd and 3rd places. That didn't happen. Because I got a lot of goals. And because each combination of players (a team = a combination of players with specific characteristics) reacts differently to this "wonderful tactic". For some teams this tactic is very good. For others ... no.  Something else: I did not react at all to the changes made by AI. If I had attackers able to match the tactic ... I scored a lot of goals. If I didn't have this kind of attackers ... I missed a lot. If I had defenders able to handle with a tactic that did not help them at all ... I conceded not so many goals. If I didn't have this kind of defenders ... I got a lot of goals.

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Dude you need to accept that the match engine does not take into account whether you are AI or human. If you use editors you can see that managers have hidden attributes which sum up their style of play, like how direct they are, what tempo they use etc, because the game then creates their tactics based on that. So the match engine uses the same information for both human players and AI players, and cannot tell the difference

If smaller teams tend to do better against you then you're not setting up correctly against them, simple as

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You don'T watch anything "live". Everything you get to see is technically a replay. This is done so that the game can rewind and show the highlights. The code isn't psychic after all and knows things in advance. Every time you make a change, a sub, a fart, or anything, the game recalculates from the point though. That's why you can also save matches as pkm and watch them from the main menu, or do the same for AI vs AI Matches. The match processing/simulation is the same for all your competition involved. If you set it to full detail for all competitions in the db uploaded, it's the same for every match. Can bring even the best computers to ist knees though, as it's a 90 minutes "kick by kick" sim for all the Matches.

If your own matches after reloads don't show the same trend's as the AI's, it's because of the AI's match management being different to yours. The AI isn't super smart. However, it's given mostly logical means of targeting specific results -- and reacting to the run of Goals, e.g. the scoreline. The target can be a draw, a win, a big win, try to avoid a trashing, etc.

Edited by Svenc

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