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Missing Clear Cut Chances/One on Ones

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So I went and had a look at the analysis screen and in 3 saves, approx 50 games played, I've never had an assist via a cross or a squared ball (except in a couple friendlies where I played low league teams and won 8-0ish), in previous FM's this would have been 75% of my goals due to my tactical preferences.

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On 11/12/2019 at 03:33, vara said:

ive found my return in 1v1’s with a lone striker is significantly poorer than when I have 2 up top. 
In fact I’d say my conversion rate with 2 up front is great!

I have 3 strikers in my 3-4-3 system. They still just kick the ball straight to the keeper in 1v1 situations. 
 

On the positive side, the opposition can’t beat my keeper in 1v1s either. 

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15 hours ago, Svenc said:

Which is weird, considering that quite a few more recent have argued how the game had a huge bias towards attacking Play (and sitting Deep was not viable). To me the ultimate stress test of the Deep block will be once you are able to go what Burnely did in 2017. Sitting Deep, averaging 20 shots against, yet conceding no more than 12 Goals in between August and December. :D 

The reason why that doesn't happen is, the game rewards too much set piece goals and shots from long and/or the edge of the area. So sitting back is generally not a brilliant strategy, because a team that corners you around your area, will naturally have more chances of this kind, the laws of probability means eventually one will go in. 

Essentially, and this is the really exasperating thing about FM20 and btw FM19 was already a bit like that too, the game rewards teams that attack a lot but not particularly well - teams that create a lot of rubbish, low percentage chances. There is just not enough of a discernible difference in chance conversion between these fairly rubbish chances and clear ones. I would even say it feels like a free shot from the edge of the area, on the volley on a first touch, pays off better than a free shot from the penalty spot with the ball under control, which is nuts. Its all to do with the algorithms of "feeling the pressure of the nearby defender" and "goalkeeper cutting the angle". 

Add to it really poor decision making on the ball that overlooks clear obvious cutback options; overlooks possibilities for central short passes between the lines that would completely destabilise a defence, in favour of longer passes into players that are running into space instead (often wide players); central deep strikers and playmaker AMCs always picking up the ball with their back to goal in the rare occasions they're called upon, and therefore not influencing the game enough; players far too keen of shooting with their wrong foot and/or on their first touch; defending that is generally too narrow/compact and ignores runs by attacking fullbacks; and magic pinpoint long balls that sometimes bypass even deep defences... and this is just not a good experience at all. It's like playing a game of football on the moon, it sort of resembles football but then works with different laws of physics that are unnatural.

Edited by noikeee

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4 hours ago, noikeee said:

Essentially, and this is the really exasperating thing about FM20 and btw FM19 was already a bit like that too, the game rewards teams that attack a lot but not particularly well - teams that create a lot of rubbish, low percentage chances. There is just not enough of a discernible difference in chance conversion between these fairly rubbish chances and clear ones. I would even say it feels like a free shot from the edge of the area, on the volley on a first touch, pays off better than a free shot from the penalty spot with the ball under control, which is nuts. Its all to do with the algorithms of "feeling the pressure of the nearby defender" and "goalkeeper cutting the angle". 

Then there is still that player frustration whenever all that "rubbish" doesn't go in. :D   I think it's oft exaggerated though, which is crucial. If you're interested, somebody tried to do some Research as to FM 19 how FM compares. His findings as to punts from yards out was interesting. https://dictatethegame.com/2019/09/27/getting-expected-goals-or-xg-into-fm19/

(It's not coincidence btw. that the perennial frustration threads on FMBase et all were pretty much dead in FM19. As you say, if sides sit deep, they concede a lot of set pieces. There were exploits being shared that let teams average a fantasy goal from the corner every match average, plus score from the long-throw too. So no matter how crappy the tactic was at stretching a packed defense; it if managed to pin the opposition back; set-piece to the rescue). :D


 

Edited by Svenc

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4 hours ago, noikeee said:

Add to it really poor decision making on the ball that overlooks clear obvious cutback options; overlooks possibilities for central short passes between the lines that would completely destabilise a defence, in favour of longer passes into players that are running into space instead (often wide players); central deep strikers and playmaker AMCs always picking up the ball with their back to goal in the rare occasions they're called upon, and therefore not influencing the game enough; players far too keen of shooting with their wrong foot and/or on their first touch; defending that is generally too narrow/compact and ignores runs by attacking fullbacks; and magic pinpoint long balls that sometimes bypass even deep defences... and this is just not a good experience at all. It's like playing a game of football on the moon, it sort of resembles football but then works with different laws of physics that are unnatural.

There are a couple of basic actions missing currently, most importantly intelligent pass into space. This is such a basic but probably most important thing in football, be it on counter attack where there is lots of space to explore or against organised defense where teams try to unleash runners from deep for first time crossing or try to put team-mates directly on goal. In real life it happens in most of attacks. 5-10 passes around box that try to stretch defense then followed by pass into space. Currently these actions don't happen enough.

Difference between top and average teams is the ability to hold the ball in possession in final third to increase numbers of those through balls, that is why lesser teams rely more on early crossing in final third. 

Another thing that could be better is interplay between lines. Imo MCs are too conservative with their firward runs, they should try to move into space more often and firwards drop deep. This is again basic stuff where one-twos happen, its the only way to open up packed defense. Currently its all so static in final third and depending on wide players individual ability. I dont know what happened but it was all there in fm17. 

 

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Had to take a look on here to confirm it wasn't just me having this issue.

I've had multiple saves so far and I am finding the same issue throughout all of them with easy chances being missed, it has become particularly noticeable on my latest save. I have downloaded the level 10 database and am playing in the lowest division possible, by the standards of the division I have excellent forwards with decent finishing stats yet I am losing or drawing far too many games where I have created an outrageous amount of chances.

At the beginning of the season I was winning plenty of games and despite missing a lot of chances was still getting over the line and was 1st at Christmas, I've now dropped down to 5th following about 12-15 games of creating 5-6 clear cut chances and not being able to win games. I could totally understand this if my team were defensively fragile but I am conceding very few chances, the standard of opposition finishing appears to be far beyond the capability of their players.

One of the most frustrating things is the decision making of wingers and forwards when in goal scoring situations, I would say at least 3 or 4 times  game my forward or winger will find himself either 1v1 with the goalkeeper or in a decent wide position with an easy pass for a tap in but instead opts to shoot.

I am really enjoying this game but there definitely appears to be issues with finishing and the bias towards the AI is obvious.

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On 11/12/2019 at 16:37, herne79 said:

Click Tactics > Analysis > Goals > Clear Cut Chances > Domestic League Matches > Last xx Matches (xx = nearest number below the league matches you've played).

Mine says in my last 25 league matches I've created 58 CCCs and converted 32 of them.  While the opposition have created 31 CCCs and converted 21.

Obviously that doesn't tell you about 1v1s but you mentioned CCCs so take a look and check.

Hmmm. In my save these stats are showing that I've created 56 CCCs and converted 30 of them.  This would be great, but how it's possible? My team scored only 19 goals  :D
 

converted1.png

converted2.png

Edited by szp

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9 hours ago, Svenc said:
13 hours ago, noikeee said:

 

Then there is still that player frustration whenever all that "rubbish" doesn't go in. :D   I think it's oft exaggerated though, which is crucial. If you're interested, somebody tried to do some Research as to FM 19 how FM compares. His findings as to punts from yards out was interesting. https://dictatethegame.com/2019/09/27/getting-expected-goals-or-xg-into-fm19/

So the data isn't quite as glaringly wrong as I expected, but still suggests that shots from zone 6 in FM19 create 3 times more goals than in real life from the same zone. :D 

I'd love to see the data for FM20 (I suspect it's gotten worse/less accurate for zones such as 1, 2, 3), and would also love to see some kind of data comparing shots on a volley/first touch, vs shots with the ball under control. Or shots after breaking clear of the last defender, vs shots with defenders in front. I suspect those things are quite badly modelled.

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32 minutes ago, Shaquiri15 said:

It's your last 25 games.. could it be some from last season?

It's my first season :) 

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4 minutes ago, szp said:

It's my first season :) 

And how many friendlies did you play? How many goals did you score in those?

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But it shows only last 25 league games. Friendlies are not included. 

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I would report it in bugs forum, but I already created one topic there and nobody replied, so I don't think it has got any sense. 

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I'm playing with Barcelona, and while Messi or Griezmann drible the whole opposition squad they just end up shooting the ball straight at the GK. While Messi almost always scores crazy goals from 20m out or so. This is really annoying and definetly some kind of a bug.

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17 hours ago, szp said:

Hmmm. In my save these stats are showing that I've created 56 CCCs and converted 30 of them.  This would be great, but how it's possible? My team scored only 19 goals  :D
 

converted1.png

converted2.png

I mentioned previously these stats are inaccurate for me too. Claims I've scored way more than I did over 5 matches and the AI scored 5 goals and they'd not actually scored at all... 

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Am happy about not being the only one whose his players don't lay the ball down to a better positilned scorer, amd instead shoot straight into the keepers body. Even with shoot less often and work ball into tye box marked...

SI should definitely do something about this, FM19 was amazing FM20 has a very poor ME, why they touched it? And even more why they left it incomplete?

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On 14/12/2019 at 11:07, jere_d said:

in terms of converting chances to goals i've constantly struggled to score with strong teams against these packed defenses however I see plenty chances created I will usually score 1 then they might score from a set piece or long ball.

My tuppence worth, after managing a dominant but Bala side last in 2019 (dominant but still abject), is that sometimes you need to back off to score in these types of games. If I didn't get a first half goal against a defensive team I would switch to a much deeper formation with counter and attacking duties. This would open the game up a bit and bring the opposition on to you more, enabling your better players to find space. Didn't always work though and would switch to Very Attacking for the last 10-15 if not. No idea if this would work at the higher echelons of the game as well

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4 minutes ago, Caning the Days said:

My tuppence worth, after managing a dominant but Bala side last in 2019 (dominant but still abject), is that sometimes you need to back off to score in these types of games. If I didn't get a first half goal against a defensive team I would switch to a much deeper formation with counter and attacking duties. This would open the game up a bit and bring the opposition on to you more, enabling your better players to find space. Didn't always work though and would switch to Very Attacking for the last 10-15 if not. No idea if this would work at the higher echelons of the game as well

The theory is good, the ME can't replicate any style this year, only hoof ball and route one. It's like kindergarden football. Also, the defensive line it's always high, even if you set it on lower/much lower.

Edited by Vali184

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Fed up on the 1v1 . There are too many of them created in the first place that's why the game towns down the conversion rate so the results don't turn into hockey manager.

I was happy with ME 2016 but since that ME i did not enjoy this at all. I am hoping they address the issues ASAP.

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On 14/12/2019 at 12:38, jere_d said:

Players still not squaring the ball. Its actually ridiculous.

20191214123512_1.jpg

20191214123522_1.jpg

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20191214123557_1.jpg

I don't see what the issue really is here? The shooter is inside the six yard box and his team mates are 10 yards behind him, not square, and there is a defender in the way. You would always expect a player to shoot there.

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2 minutes ago, s1111 said:

I don't see what the issue really is here? The shooter is inside the six yard box and his team mates are 10 yards behind him, not square, and there is a defender in the way. You would always expect a player to shoot there.

Theres four players by the penalty spot unmarked waiting for a cut back and saka just got passed his man of course he should be cutting it back!  hes practically shot from the byline.

Oh soz should I use "cut back" instead of "square" :rolleyes:

Saka is parallel with the keeper by the time he shoots with four unmarked men to cut the ball back to how can you claim the defender is in the way when hes clearly behind him when he shoots!

 

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I feel like SI have tried to irradicate killer tactics so they have made the opposition a bit too strong so they create far too many chances and convert too many.

It's causing a huge issue as it isn't taking into consideration better starting line-ups and squads.

Player for player, I've been better than most in my division, but if I'm creating 20 chances a game, they are 10 to 15. They are also converting nearly 70% of there's which is just ridiculous. 

Something needs to change because it's not realistic or fun.

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The fact that this thread has gone on soo long with numerous pages and people keep opening similar threads goes to prove that this is a huge issue. IMO the game is broken. We don't want to win every match 8 nil, but to have to search in the tactics section for a working 4231 tactic when I'm managing a top club with top players, is just stupid. 

Why am I worried every time a rubbish team attacks me with a clear cut chances and I totally know that 9 times out of 10 my striker won't score when he gets one?

I don't want a killer tactic. I just want some realistic results.

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Absolutely. The balls over the top of my defence is an absolute joke. 

I've played as RB Leipzig with arguably the best 2 DC wonderkids

Can the opposition get past them easily? What do you think?  

Does it matter if I load up one of Knaps 47821 tactics? No. 

 

Edited by Bothan Spy

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So the 20.2.0 update did sweet FA then?

Very disappointing. Still in my editing phase at the moment, hoped it'd been sorted by now.  

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It literally doesn't matter what tactic you play or what players you sign at the minute. 

You may get some short-term success and some decent results.

But, the game is still dice weighted in favour of the AI.

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Unless you want to play a daft formation with silly instructions then don't expect owt. 

Narrow **** here, attacking goalies there, inverted defenders, wide full back midfielders with back pass rule...

It's soul destroying. 

 

Edited by Bothan Spy

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36 minutes ago, Bothan Spy said:

 

But, the game is still dice weighted in favour of the AI.


The fact that some belief this is the reason the AI won't ever move much past "Hey, not too rough" mode, even at the supposedly elite Level of Ai Management. Too bad that all the talk About AI cheating typically distracts from all the genuine issues too.

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15 minutes ago, Svenc said:


The fact that some belief this is the reason the AI won't ever move much past "Hey, not too rough" mode, even at the supposedly elite Level of Ai Management. Too bad that all the talk About AI cheating typically distracts from all the genuine issues too.

While there's obviously no bias in favour of AI, there is however some sort of 'underdog effect' that somehow boosts the performance of the weaker team. I remember this was casually confirmed by a SI staff member in a random thread years ago. It is possible that human players managing stronger teams and consistently facing underdog AI teams encounter this factor more often, and maybe together with defensive AI (traditionally tougher to beat) and current number/conversion of 'easy' chances this might cause the (wrong) perception that the game favors the AI.

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46 minutes ago, kandersson said:

While there's obviously no bias in favour of AI, there is however some sort of 'underdog effect' that somehow boosts the performance of the weaker team.

The game simulates Forwards snatching at chances if they keep on missing*, so if a defensive Team keeps on withstanding bombardment, their keeper can grow in confidence too. Actually the entire attacking Team can get a Little frustrated. The effect imo isn't that huge, however you can use this some to your Advantage too, however, it needs an AI on the attack obviously. :D  That said, I don't think the defensive AI is traditionally tougher to beat as such, though it may appear that way. :)It just takes a little thought. There's this myth going around that it was tougher to beat around (exploit) download communities in particular. The source of this myth:

- Defensive flaws and exploits tend to be plugged some if the Opposition absolutely packs the backline. More players to plug the ME gaps, so to speak. So less of the "cheap" Goals, and seemingly more competitive AI
- The most popular way of playing was shoving every single Player Forward, and keeping Things narrow. This would play into the hands of a packed defense. They keep things compact themselves. Total Football Fan et all have been doing this thing for FM20 too, just seen it more recent  

* all the more reason to watch both the (long ball) defending as well as the conversion of chances currently, naturally. :D 

Edited by Svenc

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I think it's tougher to score goals against a team playing very defensively, this makes sense both in FM and real life so not really an issue per se. My issue is that most AI teams in FM always seem to have a tendency to play very defensive very often, which can add to the frustration. Or at least it's my 'perception' :D.

One thing I find amazing is how little we (at least me) know about key areas of the game after DECADES of playing, and how sometimes a member of SI staff would casually destroy my certainties in random posts. For example I was sure that formations in FM were a visual representation of defensive shape of the tactics. I remember very well a member of SI commenting years ago 'this is not 100% correct'. Boom!

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1 hour ago, Bothan Spy said:

Four four f*cking two.

We get that your are frustrated, but please cut out the language.

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5 hours ago, Svenc said:

The most popular way of playing was shoving every single Player Forward, and keeping Things narrow. This would play into the hands of a packed defense. They keep things compact themselves. Total Football Fan et all have been doing this thing for FM20 too, just seen it more recent  

* all the more reason to watch both the (long ball) defending as well as the conversion of chances currently, naturally. :D 

Was? And its not only those  download strange tactics.  People still report superb results with default Gegenpress. Exactly what you are saying above. And I agree, very narrow, all up, highest tempo, plus pass into space and WBIB. Definition of how not to play against packed defense (if you are not Liverpool).

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12 hours ago, GOODNAME said:

Fot me the balls over the top is much more annoying 

Very over powered but the problem lies with the players moving towards the ball sometimes I see a player further away going to intercept, sometimes I see defender confront of the attacker just stop running either way my keeper makes the save 2 times out of 3 so I just role my eyes since it's not impossible I guess 🙄.

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Agree that the convertion ratio of 1-on-1 situation is a bit low, but for me the thing that i think really needs to be fixed is the amount of 1-on-1 situations you have per game.

I often see in my games 4 or 5 1-on-1 situations for me and the opponent, and it doesn't matter if i'm playing a weaker or a stronger team. It's just insane.

It's too easy for a forward to escape the central defenders, even if we are talking about a world class defender vs low division forward.

In fact, i'm kinda happy that the goal convertion ratio for 1-on-1 situations is low, because otherwise it would be a goal galore in almost all games.

On the other hand, and because i play with a big team, it feels a bit exploiting the game, because i can move up my D-Line, and press as much as i want the opponent, because even if they get 3 or 4 1-on-1 situations, they probably wont score any.

Edited by Keyzer Soze

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I'm trying to ignore this issue, but unfortunately I can't. My problem is it's making defensive so easy, when you just can play with high defence line and nothong will happen ( and if you may lose from time to time, it's still worth it in the long run ) . 

My biggest issue is wingers are not smart enough to provide a cross or a pass and still take the low % kicks which is definately and problem with decision making.

 

About strikers, it seems rediculos that striker can't round the keeper easliy or lob or whatever and atill decide to take shot which the keeper takes easly. 

Please give this issue a bigger look! It's a deal breaker.

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I'm thinking that the game could somehow punishing for example overly attacking style of plays in form of this. I've seen especially on twitch players having lots of these chances missed as they are getting them constantly. 

I have had three save games so far on this version and I'm not even getting or giving away one one on one every game. On those rather rare occasions for example my team has converted two of the three so far and I think I have given away one or two so far and one of them was converted. 

These have been the numbers on all of my saves. 

I agree that players composure in general has a lot to improve on (seen on clearances, hoofing long, squaring the ball to a player in better position etc.) but I'm not personally seeing a big problem in this if you play with a well balanced tactic. 

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For those people who need reminding, please mind the language. If most of your sentences include various insults or swear words, it will end up being hidden. For the most part, we're all adults here, and should be perfectly capable of articulating any issues or frustrations without them.

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Il 6/6/2020 in 14:06 , Broken_Record ha scritto:

I'm thinking that the game could somehow punishing for example overly attacking style of plays in form of this. I've seen especially on twitch players having lots of these chances missed as they are getting them constantly. 

I have had three save games so far on this version and I'm not even getting or giving away one one on one every game. On those rather rare occasions for example my team has converted two of the three so far and I think I have given away one or two so far and one of them was converted. 

These have been the numbers on all of my saves. 

I agree that players composure in general has a lot to improve on (seen on clearances, hoofing long, squaring the ball to a player in better position etc.) but I'm not personally seeing a big problem in this if you play with a well balanced tactic. 

Those posts are quite old though. Earlier builds produced a considerable amount of long balls putting the striker straight in face of the goalkeeper. Now this has been luckily improved.

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