[FM20] Language Overhaul 2.0 - Increase the Immersion (BIG UPDATE 1/15/20)

[zanchin]

6 ore fa, majesticeternity ha scritto:

Yes, it is coming soon!

I don't see why it would...but can't be 100% certain...

The only thing changed is languages for nations, cities, and regions. It doesn't change nationalities created per nation or names or anything else.

Given the fact that I don't actually know how FM generates the name poll, I asked this with blissful ignorance 

 

Is the name poll hardcoded? I'm sure you know this way better than I do 😂

 

[majesticeternity]

18 hours ago, zanchin said:

Given the fact that I don't actually know how FM generates the name poll, I asked this with blissful ignorance 

 

Is the name poll hardcoded? I'm sure you know this way better than I do 😂

 

From research, the names are partially hardcoded, with SI's name database. And also with any player names added in the Editor. 

[KUBI]

vor 19 Stunden schrieb zanchin:

Is the name poll hardcoded? I'm sure you know this way better than I do 😂

 

Researchers can add names to the name pool and also the ratio in which they should occur. 

[Wolf_pd]

Question, if I would move languages like Lithuanian, Latvian, Estonian, Ukrainian, etc to Russia, would that make a difference for the game, for example for the name pool?

[majesticeternity]

On 24/12/2019 at 12:02, Wolf_pd said:

Question, if I would move languages like Lithuanian, Latvian, Estonian, Ukrainian, etc to Russia, would that make a difference for the game, for example for the name pool?

I'm not sure what affect it would have on the game, outside of Russians now being able to speak those languages.

It wouldn't affect the name pool, though. People in the database, and an external SI list, are used to generate names.

[zanchin]

Hi! Just started a save in Iceland while using your file and I noticed an abnormal number of players with english names and when signing Icelandic players the game tells me to send them to intensive courses of English since they're not fluent in it.. can you give it a look, please?

[majesticeternity]

1 hour ago, zanchin said:

Hi! Just started a save in Iceland while using your file and I noticed an abnormal number of players with english names and when signing Icelandic players the game tells me to send them to intensive courses of English since they're not fluent in it.. can you give it a look, please?

Sorry about that!

Out of all the 100 nations I've done now, it seems Iceland was the only nation with failed changes...

 I've gone in and fixed it. 2.0 version is coming soon, in testing now, so the fixes will be in that version, in a few days.

The way Iceland should be set up is Nationally, everyone speaks Icelandic. Then the newgens can also possibly speak Danish or Faroese. Cities with >5000 population will also speak English, so that is why they're asked to have English courses. English is taught in school, and there are many articles and videos showing that English is widely understood and spoken.

Edited January 9, 2020 by majesticeternity

[zanchin]

59 minuti fa, majesticeternity ha scritto:

Sorry about that!

Out of all the 100 nations I've done now, it seems Iceland was the only nation with failed changes...

 I've gone in and fixed it. 2.0 version is coming soon, in testing now, so the fixes will be in that version, in a few days.

The way Iceland should be set up is Nationally, everyone speaks Icelandic. Then the newgens can also possibly speak Danish or Faroese. Cities with >5000 population will also speak English, so that is why they're asked to have English courses. English is taught in school, and there are many articles and videos showing that English is widely understood and spoken.

Oh don't be sorry! It's a mastodontic task and a few errors are to be expected! I know in Scandinavia English is well spoken and understood, but it seemed like it was the main language over Icelandic! When you release the new version I'll give it a look! Thank you so much! 

[WynnZeroOne]

Um, this is weird, but none of my English players speak English? They all need an intensive language course??

 

[Wolf_pd]

In which country are you managing?

[WynnZeroOne]

Just now, Wolf_pd said:

In which country are you managing?

England

[Wolf_pd]

Sounds like too much players speaking more of a local dialect than English, but since your players are English that shouldn't be an issue. The dialect is still English afterall.

[WynnZeroOne]

Yeah, I noted that Liverpool's foreigners all have some English, but the likes of Trent have no language at all and need to be taught southern british english. Hey ho, I'm too heavily invested in 3 days of scouting, staff signings and training/tactics to start over so it'll pass.

[majesticeternity]

2 hours ago, Wolf_pd said:

Sounds like too much players speaking more of a local dialect than English, but since your players are English that shouldn't be an issue. The dialect is still English afterall.

 

2 hours ago, WynnZeroOne said:

Yeah, I noted that Liverpool's foreigners all have some English, but the likes of Trent have no language at all and need to be taught southern british english. Hey ho, I'm too heavily invested in 3 days of scouting, staff signings and training/tactics to start over so it'll pass.

Yes, that's the whole idea of this, that there are dialects, and different forms of language. This file adds a "new mechanic" to the game, where a player not only has to adjust to a tactic and team, but also to a club's culture and a city's culture.

Language doesn't have a huge effect in FM, so this is a way of increasing it. But as Wolf said, because the player already knows English, they will be able to learn Southern British English quickly. By the end of the season they should generally be fluent in the dialect.

Trent should still have his default language as English, so if he really has NO language, please screenshot and PM me your save or something to take a look. I didn't find that in my saves.

[WynnZeroOne]

Yeah, it's fine. I realise they have to learn the new dialect, so English shows up in the profile, the intensive course is for Southern British English.

(Shouldn't Liverpool be Northern?)

[majesticeternity]

15 minutes ago, WynnZeroOne said:

Yeah, it's fine. I realise they have to learn the new dialect, so English shows up in the profile, the intensive course is for Southern British English.

(Shouldn't Liverpool be Northern?)

Yea, that fix is coming in the update, once I'm done testing.

[crazycanuck]

On 10/01/2020 at 12:00, majesticeternity said:

 

Yes, that's the whole idea of this, that there are dialects, and different forms of language. This file adds a "new mechanic" to the game, where a player not only has to adjust to a tactic and team, but also to a club's culture and a city's culture.

Language doesn't have a huge effect in FM, so this is a way of increasing it. But as Wolf said, because the player already knows English, they will be able to learn Southern British English quickly. By the end of the season they should generally be fluent in the dialect.

Trent should still have his default language as English, so if he really has NO language, please screenshot and PM me your save or something to take a look. I didn't find that in my saves.

 

I really like this mod and this idea of dialects, but i'm finding a lot of canadian staff members don't have "canadian english" as their default language, just "english". I can immerse myself in the need for an american to take a 22 week intensive language course to learn "canadian english" if it's actually to adjust to the culture, since the slight differences between canadian and american english definitely don't require a professional tutor, but it makes no sense for a canadian to have to take the course for a move across the country. 

i also completely understand if this gripe is irrelevant to 99% of people who use this mod and don't play with the canadian premier league, lol. 

[majesticeternity]

3 hours ago, crazycanuck said:

 

I really like this mod and this idea of dialects, but i'm finding a lot of canadian staff members don't have "canadian english" as their default language, just "english". I can immerse myself in the need for an american to take a 22 week intensive language course to learn "canadian english" if it's actually to adjust to the culture, since the slight differences between canadian and american english definitely don't require a professional tutor, but it makes no sense for a canadian to have to take the course for a move across the country. 

i also completely understand if this gripe is irrelevant to 99% of people who use this mod and don't play with the canadian premier league, lol. 

That is unfortunately a limitation with the Database itself. 

Every person created in the Database is assigned a default language as well as additional known ones. So it's like that, unless I go through and change every single person's default or known languages....which is a gigantic task.

Although, staff knowing the language is not really needed...and they should learn it within a season or two, no language course needed. Think of it as them adjusting to the city and the club itself.

But, if you still don't like it, open up the file in the Editor, find all people born in the nation of Canada, and change all with their Default Language as English to Canadian English(those born in Quebec know French also, so you'd exclude Quebec and other cities).

[majesticeternity]

2.0 update

[eltarian]

7 hours ago, majesticeternity said:

2.0 update

I've got some translation work to do

[Faroe]

Are you sure it doesn't affect the name pool? This is Denmark u-19s and more than half of the names are in English.

[Wolf_pd]

They are all Danish I assume from your question? Just checking.

[Faroe]

Nah. I'm playing in the Netherlands, and a lot of my youth intake players have English names too

[WynnZeroOne]

Yeah, I noticed all my newgens in Sweden were Welsh, with typical English names. Can't see why though?

[krakonico]

I saw this and wanted to help a little, don't now if you are going to update the DB.  In the Spanish languages, there are something that caught my attention, you changed the "Language Subgroup" from Romance to West, although Spanish is considered a Romance Language like Portuguese, French, Italian and Romanian. citation.

There is also a misconception, Venezuela is (by your database) speaking "Caribbean Spanish", while the ones that could be in that category are Cuba, Dominican Republic and Puerto Rico... and those three countries has also some regionalism that people from other countries would be hard to understand... for example I can find some difficult to understand everything someone from the south of my country (DR) than the city where I live (the capital), imagine someone from another country like Venezuela, that has more regionalism than us. 

[Jamaicaman90]

On 19/01/2020 at 14:24, WynnZeroOne said:

Yeah, I noticed all my newgens in Sweden were Welsh, with typical English names. Can't see why though?

I can see the following countries at least have this issue:

Sweden (Welsh (or possibly English) names)
Denmark (English names)
Iceland (Scottish (or possibly Irish) names)

This issue aside, I'd like to congratulate you on a novel and very well done mod!

Edit: To clarify, I'm using the version before the 2.0 release so this may have been addressed already.

Edited January 25, 2020 by Jamaicaman90
Clarification

[Tom14]

I'm using v 2.0 and the above countries still have the issue. Are there any plans to work on this? I'm a huge fan of this add on and the attention to detail is incredible, however that attention to detail is stopping me from starting a career so just want to check if this will be fixed before I do start.

Edit - I had not installed v 2.0 correctly. The file works completely fine. One of the best mods I've ever used.

Edited January 30, 2020 by brookie1402

[WynnZeroOne]

Worth noting that it's happening in games without this mod too. Canadian regens are all european and most of them see no benefit in taking canadian nationality. Odd.

[freddieos]

On 24/01/2020 at 17:04, Jamaicaman90 said:

I can see the following countries at least have this issue:

Sweden (Welsh (or possibly English) names)
Denmark (English names)
Iceland (Scottish (or possibly Irish) names)

This issue aside, I'd like to congratulate you on a novel and very well done mod!

Edit: To clarify, I'm using the version before the 2.0 release so this may have been addressed already.

I have the same issue. It's 2031 and I'm in my most enjoyable save ever, but the vast majority of newgens from Scandinavia have English names and also frequently occurs in Belgium and Holland, also noticed in Austria.

Guessing there is no fix to this?

[Shenmue-X]

So the language can actually influence the name pool? Interesting...

[majesticeternity]

27 minutes ago, Shenmue-X said:

So the language can actually influence the name pool? Interesting...

No, it can’t, from what we’ve tested. It’s database names by nationality, I believe. 

[Shenmue-X]

On 31/10/2020 at 22:06, majesticeternity said:

No, it can’t, from what we’ve tested. It’s database names by nationality, I believe. 

I'm studying your mod to customize it and understand your way to proceed so I'll be grateful if you could let me ask you few questions.

1) For "Cataluña" region, you removed "Spanish" from the entered languages. You put Catalan (70), English (20) and High German (10). But Spanish is the most spoken language there according a 2013 wiki source.

Pretty much the same can be said for Basque Country where you put Basque language 100% and removed Spanish.

Meanwhile in the Spain page, you downgraded Spanish language percentage from 100 to 20.

Is there any specific reason for that?

2) For "Sarangani" region, you removed "Philipines" from the associated nation and left all the boxes blank. Did you want to make this region inactive?

3) You put the language box blank for many cities in the database. I presume to let your region/nation new values fully determinate the newgens. What happens if I decide to enter a language back to the cities (or merge .fmf files from other modders, bringing new cities with their own language)?

4) What's the role of "influence" value for a language?

[majesticeternity]

 

1 hour ago, Shenmue-X said:

I'm studying your mod to customize it and understand your way to proceed so I'll be grateful if you could let me ask you few questions.

1) For "Cataluña" region, you removed "Spanish" from the entered languages. You put Catalan (70), English (20) and High German (10). But Spanish is the most spoken language there according a 2013 wiki source.

Pretty much the same can be said for Basque Country where you put Basque language 100% and removed Spanish.

Meanwhile in the Spain page, you downgraded Spanish language percentage from 100 to 20.

Is there any specific reason for that?

2) For "Sarangani" region, you removed "Philipines" from the associated nation and left all the boxes blank. Did you want to make this region inactive?

3) You put the language box blank for many cities in the database. I presume to let your region/nation new values fully determinate the newgens. What happens if I decide to enter a language back to the cities (or merge .fmf files from other modders, bringing new cities with their own language)?

4) What's the role of "influence" value for a language?

Sure, no problem!

1) from what I found, the way it works is it adds languages to a player based on a hierarchy of Nation + Region + City. Each additional section ADDS to the language skills. So if you have Spanish 100 for nation,  everybody will know Spanish 100%. If you add Catalan to cataluna region, they will know Spanish 100% AND Catalan 100%, but let’s say in some city in that region, they speak English. Then anyone from that city would know Spanish 100%, Catalan 100%, and English 100%. 
 

So, in order to create variation, you need to remove all nation language settings, unless that country has 95%+ same-language speakers no matter where they live. 

spain is one of those countries, so I kept Spanish, but reduced its influence. if I remember correctly that means everyone from Spain will speak Spanish, but to varying degrees. Some good, some fluent. 
 

So for Spain, Nation is 20 Spanish, everyone will speak it, some not fluently, but most will. For Cataluna region, they will all speak Spanish, then a good percentage  will ALSO speak Catalan, a few will speak English, and an odd one here or there will speak High German. 
 

2) for Sarangani region... I don’t remember exactly...id have to look at it

3) yes, many are blank, because region settings allow for randomness, variation, and percentages. Cities don’t. You select a language for that city, and everyone from that city speaks it. That is fine for a small city, where everyone may speak the same language. But for a big city in Belgium, with many walks of life and different languages and different fluencies and preferences, it doesn’t work. 
 

If you merge other data, everyone from those cities will speak that language that was selected. 
 

for me, again, city language is sometimes realistic, and sometimes not. For example, where I live, a city in USA, most people speak English and/or Spanish. If I select a region language of English, then a lot of Spanish here, so I choose Spanish for city...it’s not accurate. Many speak Spanish, but many don’t know it at all, they are 100% English. A Spanish speaker may learn English very well, and have good grammar, but have a harsh accent, and make it difficult for some English Speakers to understand at all. I know Spanish from learning it in school, yet many of my Mexican colleagues don’t know any Spanish!! Others only know Spanish..

so selecting one city language that everyone speaks is often unrealistic. Then, in other places, it is proper, as maybe everyone speaks German in the city, and the regions then have their own dialects for certain situations...

it’s difficult to tell you whether those files would be good or not, or realistic, as I haven’t seen them, but of course if you want to merge them, then of course you do it an enjoy!

[Shenmue-X]

Many thanks, it's very useful information.

I think another problem with FM's coding is that you can't cross regions. I mean, you cannot associate a club or city with more than one region. 

For instance, France has an administrative region named "Grand Est" (where I live) at North-East of the country. The region is entered in the SI's default database.

But the region is geographically divided by two linguistic regions. French speakers on the West side (Champagne-Ardenne and Lorraine regions), and French/Alsatian speakers on the East (Alsace region).

Alsatian is a dialect of German (and Alsatian is itself a group of dialects that vary depending the place or village you live).
I would say 95% of people in Alsace speak French fluently. And 40% of people in Alsace speak Alsatian fluently.

Since most of these 40% are mostly old people who inherited from long history of German administration (Adolf Hitler, Holy Roman Empire, German Empire), I think the High German 20% value you entered for "Grand Est" region (with French 100) is realistic as younger generations tend to ignore Alsatian.

But as I said, since FM's regions are cut loosely, we're losing accuracy as French players outside Alsace are going to speak High German with your mod.

So if someone wants to go beyond the realism of Language Overhaul 2.0, he would have to redesign some regions from scratch.

Maybe SI should have created two distinctive groups of region: one linguistic and one for weather.

Edited November 5, 2020 by Shenmue-X

[Daniel Evensen]

Hi there,

Thank you for your hard work on this!

I played around a little bit with it yesterday, playing with Yanbian Beiguo in northeast China.  I noticed that the game kept asking me if I wanted to have my signings go learn Min Chinese.

There are two problems with this:

- It is far more likely that standard (Mandarin) Chinese would be used for player communication when different dialects exist.  In particular, a foreign player would never be asked to go learn a dialect without learning the standard language first.

- Min Chinese is situated in Fujian Province, Taiwan, and parts of Southeast Asia - but certainly not Northeast China.

I wanted to go in and make some changes for the sake of realism.  Yanbian is China's Korean Autonomous Prefecture, and Korean is spoken there just as commonly as Chinese.  My idea was to try to create a team of Korean-speaking Chinese nationals, adding in a few signings from North and South Korea just for fun.  Unfortunately, I wasn't able to get into the pre game editor to make any modifications for the sake of realism, nor could I figure out how to change anything in the even-more useless in game editor.

Anyway, Yanbian is kind of an outlier in this respect, and I should note that you can only play with that team if you use a database that opens up the lower Chinese leagues.  I'm still smarting over Yanbian Funde's financial collapse in 2019; perhaps I should go back to FM19 instead!

I might try to give this a whirl again later on.  In the meantime, I thought I'd let you know about some of these little quirks.  I haven't looked much around the rest of the world for similar geographic disparities.  I just so happen to have had experience living in northeast China, and know quite a bit about how dialects work up there.

Thanks again!

[Shenmue-X]

@Daniel Evensen

Very interesting, I didn't know there was a kind of Korean diaspora in China. Apparently, Chinese authorities even fund schools and books that use Korean as main language.

What did you fail to edit in the editor precisely?

Edited December 1, 2020 by Shenmue-X

[majesticeternity]

5 hours ago, Daniel Evensen said:

Hi there,

Thank you for your hard work on this!

I played around a little bit with it yesterday, playing with Yanbian Beiguo in northeast China.  I noticed that the game kept asking me if I wanted to have my signings go learn Min Chinese.

There are two problems with this:

- It is far more likely that standard (Mandarin) Chinese would be used for player communication when different dialects exist.  In particular, a foreign player would never be asked to go learn a dialect without learning the standard language first.

- Min Chinese is situated in Fujian Province, Taiwan, and parts of Southeast Asia - but certainly not Northeast China.

I wanted to go in and make some changes for the sake of realism.  Yanbian is China's Korean Autonomous Prefecture, and Korean is spoken there just as commonly as Chinese.  My idea was to try to create a team of Korean-speaking Chinese nationals, adding in a few signings from North and South Korea just for fun.  Unfortunately, I wasn't able to get into the pre game editor to make any modifications for the sake of realism, nor could I figure out how to change anything in the even-more useless in game editor.

Anyway, Yanbian is kind of an outlier in this respect, and I should note that you can only play with that team if you use a database that opens up the lower Chinese leagues.  I'm still smarting over Yanbian Funde's financial collapse in 2019; perhaps I should go back to FM19 instead!

I might try to give this a whirl again later on.  In the meantime, I thought I'd let you know about some of these little quirks.  I haven't looked much around the rest of the world for similar geographic disparities.  I just so happen to have had experience living in northeast China, and know quite a bit about how dialects work up there.

Thanks again!

Hello,

Thank you so much for the information!

Actually, from what I found, you are correct. 

I had set it this way in the editor: Hunchun City speaks dialect of Min Chinese.  100% of people from Jilin-sheng region, that Hunchun is in, speak Mandarin Chinese. 20% may also speak Korean.

It seems this is a faulty way of FM handling languages, that it ignores the region's language, and pick city. So you should just be able to ignore the prompt

But, I assume you are still on FM20? FM21 has added  the ability to select the language...I can't find the twitter post now to remember how it determines it.

[majesticeternity]

2 hours ago, Shenmue-X said:

@Daniel Evensen

Very interesting, I didn't know there was a kind of Korean diaspora in China. Apparently, Chinese authorities even fund schools and books that use Korean as main language.

What did you fail to edit in the editor precisely?

Yes, languages are very interesting!

This map shows that the green area along edges of Jilin have Korean speakers, largely, I believe, due to being at the border of North Korea, and the good transport system between the two countries. There are also some Russian speakers, as there is a railway to the Russian border, too, but they are much less "notable" in that area.

[Daniel Evensen]

I've been to Hunchun, actually.  It's one of the most interesting cities in all of China, in my opinion.  You can get by in either Korean or Chinese in town, and there are all sorts of Russian tourists hanging around.  It's cool on the map - it's squeezed right in between Russia and the DPRK.

I don't know exact statistics, but I would guess that 20% is kind of a low Korean rate for Hunchun.  I think it's probably closer to 40% or 50%.  You can actually get by in Yanbian without knowing any Chinese at all.  In fact, official documents are written in both Chinese and Korean, which is pretty rare in the Chinese bureaucratic world.

There are a little over 2,000,000 ethnic Koreans in China (that is, Chinese citizens who are of Korean descent - NOT North Korean defectors), almost all of whom live in Yanbian.  There's a pretty vibrant Koreatown in Shenyang in Liaoning Province as well - they call it 西塔街 (서답가 in Korean).  It's probably the only place in the world where you can find North Korean government run restaurants right next to South Korean shopping malls.  It's also one of the sketchiest places on earth, especially if you are familiar with the stories of DPRK defectors over the past few decades...

Anyway, Min is not really accurate.  Min refers to a dialect that is chiefly located in Fujian province.  Most well-known of the dialects of Min is Min Nan, or Southern Min - also known as Hokkien (an older romanized version of what we would probably call "Fujianese" today).  In addition to select parts of Fujian Province, Southern Min is widely spoken in Taiwan, Malaysia, Singapore and other parts of Southeast Asia.  My wife is from southern Taiwan and speaks Southern Min at an almost native level, in addition to standard Chinese.  I've also picked up a bit over the years: it's almost a completely separate language from Chinese.  My experience is that Spanish and French are more mutually intelligible than Mandarin Chinese and Southern Min.  But I digress...

FM actually handles Yanbian pretty well out of the box.  Most players from cities like Tumen, Hunchun, Yanji, Longjing and even Antu County will speak both Chinese and Korean fluently.  Hence my dream of (virtually) running a Korean ethnic squad in Yanbian, complete with 100% ethnic Korean management and a board that only allows foreign players from Korea.

Shenmue-X: I tried to load this FMF in the pre game editor, but the file wouldn't even show up.  I've got no idea what in the world is going on there.  Hey - as long as the actual game runs it, I'm more than happy!

[cancerman123]

So you're telling me that you went through every possible dialect, yet still didn't add Corsican in?...

[majesticeternity]

On 02/07/2021 at 14:19, cancerman123 said:

So you're telling me that you went through every possible dialect, yet still didn't add Corsican in?...

No, I haven't said I've gone through every possible dialect, there are so many out there, it's impossible to do.

Corsican is a "definitely endangered language" And wiki says "The use of Corsican language over French language has been declining." Even in Corsica itself, "The percentage of those who have a solid oral understanding of the language varies between a minimum of 25 percent in the 25–34 age group and the maximum of 65 percent in the over-65 age group: almost a quarter of the former age group does not understand Corsican, while only a small minority of the older people do not understand it." So didn't seem likely that 17-18 year olds would be fluent in Corsican, especially when thinking a decade or more into the future.

If you have other information, I'd be happy to look at it and add the language if needed.